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Hi sultan,
Quite so.
God only uses the exact words He chooses to show us truth.He knows the difference between “very good” and “perfect”
Rom 12.2
“..what is good and acceptable and perfect”“your heavenly Father is perfect”
“The Law of the Lord is perfect”Adam was never perfect.
Speaking of Jehovah, Moses said: “The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice.” (De 32:3, 4)
By whose standard do we judge what is perfect? Is it not Jehovah’s?
If Jehovah makes something, are we going to tell him it isn’t perfect, as though we know how to make it better? Seems somewhat arrogant. Are you willing to tell Jehovah that he made Adam imperfectly? Nick, if YOU consider something to be a flaw and hence imperfect, and Jehovah creates something with that quality that YOU consider flawed, is it your or His concept of what is right or wrong that is incorrect? I assure you, Jehovah's actions are always correct. “Perfect is his activity.” Creating Adam like a robot with no choice or free will would not have been a perfect creation. It would have been lacking. Free will is not a flaw Nick.A lot of people falsely believe that if Adam was perfect, he would not have sinned. This is a mistaken view, which I will briefly address.
How was it possible for Adam to sin if he was perfect?
As to Adam’s being perfect, read Genesis 1:27, 31 and Deuteronomy 32:4. When Jehovah God pronounced his earthly creation, including man and woman, to be “very good,” what did it mean? For One whose activity is perfect to have said that what he made was “very good,” it must have measured up to his perfect standards.Did perfection require that Adam and Eve be unable to do wrong? The maker of a robot expects it to do exactly what he has programmed it to do. But a perfect robot would not be a perfect human. The qualities viewed as essential are not the same. Adam and Eve were humans, not robots. To humankind, God gave the ability to choose between right and wrong, between obedience and disobedience, to make moral decisions. Since this is the way humans were designed, the inability to make such decisions (and not an unwise decision) is what would have indicated imperfection.—Compare Deuteronomy 30:19, 20; Joshua 24:15.
For Adam and Eve to qualify as being created perfect, must all their decisions thereafter be right? That would be the same as saying that they had no choice. But God did not make them in such a way that their obedience would be automatic. God granted them the ability to choose, so that they could obey because they loved him. Or, if they allowed their hearts to become selfish, they would become disobedient. Which means more to you—when someone does something for you because he is forced to do it or because he wants to?—Compare Deuteronomy 11:1; 1 John 5:3.How could such perfect humans become selfish, leading to acts of sin?
Although created perfect, their physical bodies would not continue to function perfectly if not provided with proper food. So, too, if they let the mind feed on wrong thoughts, this would cause moral deterioration, unholiness. James 1:14, 15 explains: “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin.” In the case of Eve, the wrong desires began to develop when she listened with interest to Satan, who used a serpent as his mouthpiece. Adam heeded the urging of his wife to join her in eating the forbidden fruit. Instead of rejecting the wrong thoughts, both nourished selfish desires. Acts of sin resulted.—Gen. 3:1-6.Jehovah created Adam perfect with free will. Once he chose to misuse that free will and sin, he was no longer perfect.
I think this is getting slightly off subject. Nick, is there a more appropriate thread for this?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2005,14:41) Hi sultan,
Quite so.
God only uses the exact words He chooses to show us truth.He knows the difference between “very good” and “perfect”
Rom 12.2
“..what is good and acceptable and perfect”“your heavenly Father is perfect”
“The Law of the Lord is perfect”Adam was never perfect.
God knew good because God knew evil (Gen. 3:22). Adam could not have known good because he didn't know evil. That's why Adam fell he was supposed to fall. God who knows the beginning from the end, knew Adam was going to fall. I believe that's what this life is all about; learning good from evil. This present world is a school. The tares are here to play their part to teach us evil. And if we choose we can learn good.If this is not true then God does not know the beginning fom the end. And God created Adam with a flaw. This cannot be!
God knew what He was doing when He created Adam and when He put the tree of “choice” in the garden.
Does anyone think that God made a mistake and now is trying to correct it?Hi kenrch,
Did God create perfection because He is God and by your definition could not do otherwise?
Logic and reason are some use to help understand scripture but to have the help of God you have to work with the Spirit and show us through the words of God first.
God made dust.
Man was made from dustGen 1.31
” God saw all that He had made and behold it was very good”“The Rock, perfect is his activity,”
Jehovah is unquestionably perfect. Yet when someone called Jesus “good,” didn't Jesus say no one is good except his Father? Yes, Jehovah, who's perfect, is also described as good.
What does this Biblical fact tell us?
Something being called good does not mean it isn't perfect.
Something can be called good or very good and still be perfect.
Jehovah certain could be described as good, and he was also perfect.david.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2005,12:02) Hi kenrch,
Did God create perfection because He is God and by your definition could not do otherwise?
Logic and reason are some use to help understand scripture but to have the help of God you have to work with the Spirit and show us through the words of God first.
God made dust.
Man was made from dustGen 1.31
” God saw all that He had made and behold it was very good”
Nick,Are you saying That God made a mistake and now is trying to fix it? From all the scriptures I have read one would have to conclude that God is perfect and makes no mistakes.
What is your conclusion from the scripture you have read?
Or don't you have any?Quote (david @ Dec. 15 2005,01:39) Hi Kenrch Quote David, 1 Cor. 6:9-11, Now anyone who can read sees that these scriptures are speaking of the 144k. But does that mean that those of the 2nd resurrection can be like those in 1Cor. 6:9-11. Of course NOT! They must change, and don't be deceived, we can't change ourselves. We must be born again. Do you really think that you can change your nature without the Holy Spirit. Only God can change the way you think. In order to receive the Holy Spirit to change your nature you must born again.
ya, that's what I thought was troubling you. You are right. We absolutely need God's help to change and transform ourselves over. But it is possible to have the holy spirit without being born again.Quote Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Right, Jehovah, our heavenly Father gives holy spirit to those asking, those with the right heart. But asking for holy spirit and being born again aren't the same thing.
Being someone that actually understands that there are those who go to heaven to rule and those who are ruled over, you may have an easier time grasping the following than some:God’s Purpose in Having Some “Born Again”
The testimony of God’s Word leaves us with no doubt that one of God’s outstanding qualities is justice. Also, righteousness is the very foundation of his throne. (Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalm 89:14) His being just and righteous, however, does not obligate him to bestow identical favors upon all of his intelligent creatures. For example, he created some beings as spirit creatures, angels, who are far superior to humans. Nor does he reward all of his faithful earthly creatures in the same way. Thus Jesus said regarding John the Baptizer that “the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.” (Matthew 11:11, The New English Bible) These are points we do well to bear in mind when we consider this subject of being “born again.”God’s Purpose for the Earth and Man
To appreciate God’s purpose in having some humans “born again,” it is essential to understand the circumstances that caused God to resort to having some “born again.” Going back to our very first parents, we find that God gave them the mandate: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection . . . every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” (Genesis 1:28) As they proceeded to subdue the earth and to fill it with their own kind, the whole earth would eventually become a paradise populated with perfect humans, even as Adam and Eve were perfect.
However, our first parents lacked appreciation for all of God’s provisions for them and transgressed his law. So God ousted them from his family of sons and sentenced them to death. As a result, all of their offspring have been born sinners subject to death. (Genesis 3:19; Romans 5:12) Neither our first parents nor any of their offspring have been able to carry out God’s original mandate to the human family. Does this mean that God’s purposes regarding the earth and man will never be realized? By no means, for God’s Word assures us that his purposes never fail.—Isaiah 46:10, 11; 55:10, 11.
How, then, will God’s original purpose regarding the earth and man be carried out? By means of a Seed, even as God foretold in the garden of Eden and as he promised also to Abraham. That Seed the apostle Paul shows to be primarily Jesus Christ. —Genesis 3:15; 22:17, 18; Galatians 3:16, 29.How God’s Original Purpose Will Be Realized
How could Jesus Christ cause God’s original purpose to be realized? First of all, by removing the condemnation resting upon the human family due to Adam’s rebellion. Jesus was able to do this because he was born as a perfect human, Jehovah God—not Mary’s husband Joseph—being his Father. Jesus actually accomplished this removal of condemnation by dying on the execution stake as a ransom sacrifice. Thereby he opened the way for Adam’s offspring to be restored to Jehovah’s approved family.—Matthew 28:20.
However, a dead Ransomer could not benefit the human race. Therefore, Jehovah God raised Jesus Christ on the third day, making him “alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Jehovah did this on the basis of what had happened at the Jordan when Jesus was baptized. There, by means of his holy spirit, God had brought forth Jesus as a spirit-begotten Son. John the Baptizer not only had seen God’s spirit descending upon Jesus in the form of a dove but also had heard God’s voice saying: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”—Matthew 3:16, 17; Hebrews 10:5-10.
Jesus thus became not only a spiritual Son of God but also the Messiah, the Christ or One anointed to be the king of God’s kingdom. Also, at the same time he was ordained to be high priest in behalf of dying mankind, in order to remove the disability of sin. (Hebrews 7:26) Further, the words of Isaiah 61:1, 2 now applied to him.: “The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me. . . .” Jesus had been spirit begotten, “born again.” As God’s spirit-anointed Son he continued faithful until death, in spite of all that Satan the Devil tried to do to cause Jesus to break his integrity. So God resurrected him from the dead.
Thereupon “God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name.” (Philippians 2:9-11) Shortly before he returned to his Father in the heavens, he told his disciples: “All authority [or, power] has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” (Matthew 28:18) Now he was fully equipped with the right to restore humankind, by virtue of his sacrificial death, and also with the power to do so, by virtue of his resurrection and ascension to God’s right hand in heaven. (Luke 22:69) Thus Jesus Christ is now in position to cause God’s original purpose regarding the earth and man to be realized. To him, therefore, apply all the Messianic prophecies.—See Psalm 72; Isaiah 9:6, 7; 11:1-10.Why Others Are “Born Again”
Will Jesus Christ accomplish all these things by himself alone? No. Sharing with him in the fulfillment of those Messianic prophecies will be some who had been humans upon earth, just as he had been. But before they can share in Christ’s Kingdom government they, like him, must first be “born again” while on earth. Jehovah’s spirit operating upon them brings them forth as spiritual sons with the prospect of everlasting life in the heavens. As such they have a special intimate relationship with God, “a spirit adoption as sons, by which spirit [they] cry out: ‘Abba, Father!’” (Romans 8:15) Jesus repeatedly held out this hope to his apostles. (Luke 22:28-30; John 14:2, 3) Similarly, the apostles made mention of this hope.—Romans 8:17; 1 Corinthians 15:52, 53; 1 John 3:2.
How many will gain this heavenly standing? According to all the scriptures bearing on the subject those “born again” will be comparatively few. This is what we would expect, since this is a very special prize, a most privileged official position. Thus Jesus said regarding them: “Have no fear, LITTLE FLOCK, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32) Just how many will there be of these? The apo
stle John tells of seeing 144,000 spiritual Israelites sealed in their foreheads, also of 144,000 standing upon Mount Zion with the Lamb Jesus Christ. That we are to understand this number to be a literal one is apparent from the context that tells also of a “great crowd, which no man was able to number.”—Revelation 7:3, 4, 9; 14:1, 3; 20:4, 6.david.
David,So you can receive the Holy Spirit and not be born again. I'm a completely different person. As I've said I can tell when a complete stranger is christian my spirit jumps with joy and when I ask that person if he's christian he always says yes and when he does the Holy Spirit pays us a visit. Now this has happend too many times to count. Has this ever happened to you?
Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 18 2005,19:04) Quote (david @ Dec. 15 2005,01:39) Hi Kenrch Quote David, 1 Cor. 6:9-11, Now anyone who can read sees that these scriptures are speaking of the 144k. But does that mean that those of the 2nd resurrection can be like those in 1Cor. 6:9-11. Of course NOT! They must change, and don't be deceived, we can't change ourselves. We must be born again. Do you really think that you can change your nature without the Holy Spirit. Only God can change the way you think. In order to receive the Holy Spirit to change your nature you must born again.
ya, that's what I thought was troubling you. You are right. We absolutely need God's help to change and transform ourselves over. But it is possible to have the holy spirit without being born again.Quote Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Right, Jehovah, our heavenly Father gives holy spirit to those asking, those with the right heart. But asking for holy spirit and being born again aren't the same thing.
Being someone that actually understands that there are those who go to heaven to rule and those who are ruled over, you may have an easier time grasping the following than some:God’s Purpose in Having Some “Born Again”
The testimony of God’s Word leaves us with no doubt that one of God’s outstanding qualities is justice. Also, righteousness is the very foundation of his throne. (Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalm 89:14) His being just and righteous, however, does not obligate him to bestow identical favors upon all of his intelligent creatures. For example, he created some beings as spirit creatures, angels, who are far superior to humans. Nor does he reward all of his faithful earthly creatures in the same way. Thus Jesus said regarding John the Baptizer that “the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.” (Matthew 11:11, The New English Bible) These are points we do well to bear in mind when we consider this subject of being “born again.”God’s Purpose for the Earth and Man
To appreciate God’s purpose in having some humans “born again,” it is essential to understand the circumstances that caused God to resort to having some “born again.” Going back to our very first parents, we find that God gave them the mandate: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection . . . every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” (Genesis 1:28) As they proceeded to subdue the earth and to fill it with their own kind, the whole earth would eventually become a paradise populated with perfect humans, even as Adam and Eve were perfect.
However, our first parents lacked appreciation for all of God’s provisions for them and transgressed his law. So God ousted them from his family of sons and sentenced them to death. As a result, all of their offspring have been born sinners subject to death. (Genesis 3:19; Romans 5:12) Neither our first parents nor any of their offspring have been able to carry out God’s original mandate to the human family. Does this mean that God’s purposes regarding the earth and man will never be realized? By no means, for God’s Word assures us that his purposes never fail.—Isaiah 46:10, 11; 55:10, 11.
How, then, will God’s original purpose regarding the earth and man be carried out? By means of a Seed, even as God foretold in the garden of Eden and as he promised also to Abraham. That Seed the apostle Paul shows to be primarily Jesus Christ. —Genesis 3:15; 22:17, 18; Galatians 3:16, 29.How God’s Original Purpose Will Be Realized
How could Jesus Christ cause God’s original purpose to be realized? First of all, by removing the condemnation resting upon the human family due to Adam’s rebellion. Jesus was able to do this because he was born as a perfect human, Jehovah God—not Mary’s husband Joseph—being his Father. Jesus actually accomplished this removal of condemnation by dying on the execution stake as a ransom sacrifice. Thereby he opened the way for Adam’s offspring to be restored to Jehovah’s approved family.—Matthew 28:20.
However, a dead Ransomer could not benefit the human race. Therefore, Jehovah God raised Jesus Christ on the third day, making him “alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Jehovah did this on the basis of what had happened at the Jordan when Jesus was baptized. There, by means of his holy spirit, God had brought forth Jesus as a spirit-begotten Son. John the Baptizer not only had seen God’s spirit descending upon Jesus in the form of a dove but also had heard God’s voice saying: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”—Matthew 3:16, 17; Hebrews 10:5-10.
Jesus thus became not only a spiritual Son of God but also the Messiah, the Christ or One anointed to be the king of God’s kingdom. Also, at the same time he was ordained to be high priest in behalf of dying mankind, in order to remove the disability of sin. (Hebrews 7:26) Further, the words of Isaiah 61:1, 2 now applied to him.: “The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me. . . .” Jesus had been spirit begotten, “born again.” As God’s spirit-anointed Son he continued faithful until death, in spite of all that Satan the Devil tried to do to cause Jesus to break his integrity. So God resurrected him from the dead.
Thereupon “God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name.” (Philippians 2:9-11) Shortly before he returned to his Father in the heavens, he told his disciples: “All authority [or, power] has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” (Matthew 28:18) Now he was fully equipped with the right to restore humankind, by virtue of his sacrificial death, and also with the power to do so, by virtue of his resurrection and ascension to God’s right hand in heaven. (Luke 22:69) Thus Jesus Christ is now in position to cause God’s original purpose regarding the earth and man to be realized. To him, therefore, apply all the Messianic prophecies.—See Psalm 72; Isaiah 9:6, 7; 11:1-10.Why Others Are “Born Again”
Will Jesus Christ accomplish all these things by himself alone? No. Sharing with him in the fulfillment of those Messianic prophecies will be some who had been humans upon earth, just as he had been. But before they can share in Christ’s Kingdom government they, like him, must first be “born again” while on earth. Jehovah’s spirit operating upon them brings them forth as spiritual sons with the prospect of everlasting life in the heavens. As such they have a special intimate relationship with God, “a spirit adoption as sons, by which spirit [they] cry out: ‘Abba, Father!’” (Romans 8:15) Jesus repeatedly held out this hope to his apostles. (Luke 22:28-30; John 14:2, 3) Similarly, the apostles made mention of this hope.—Romans 8:17; 1 Corinthians 15:52, 53; 1 John 3:2.
How many will gain this heavenly standing? According to all the scriptures bearing on the subject those “born again” will be comparatively few. This is what we would expect, since this is a very special prize, a m
ost privileged official position. Thus Jesus said regarding them: “Have no fear, LITTLE FLOCK, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32) Just how many will there be of these? The apostle John tells of seeing 144,000 spiritual Israelites sealed in their foreheads, also of 144,000 standing upon Mount Zion with the Lamb Jesus Christ. That we are to understand this number to be a literal one is apparent from the context that tells also of a “great crowd, which no man was able to number.”—Revelation 7:3, 4, 9; 14:1, 3; 20:4, 6.david.
David,So you can receive the Holy Spirit and not be born again. I'm a completely different person. As I've said I can tell when a complete stranger is christian my spirit jumps with joy and when I ask that person if he's christian he always says yes and when he does the Holy Spirit pays us a visit. Now this has happend too many times to count. Has this ever happened to you?
Heck, let's not leave anybody out has anybody else had that experience?Amen brother. Here's what the Bible says:
Romans 8:15-17
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 18 2005,20:35) Amen brother. Here's what the Bible says:
Romans 8:15-17
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
Sultan,Remember I told You not to get a big head, but that you were an answer to my prayer. Yes! Praise the Lord for the Lord is good!
Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 18 2005,00:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2005,12:02) Hi kenrch,
Did God create perfection because He is God and by your definition could not do otherwise?
Logic and reason are some use to help understand scripture but to have the help of God you have to work with the Spirit and show us through the words of God first.
God made dust.
Man was made from dustGen 1.31
” God saw all that He had made and behold it was very good”
Nick,Are you saying That God made a mistake and now is trying to fix it? From all the scriptures I have read one would have to conclude that God is perfect and makes no mistakes.
What is your conclusion from the scripture you have read?
Or don't you have any?
Hi kenrch and david,
This is a biblical forum and while you are entitled to express whatever opinions you may have or derivations from scripture you hold dear the aim here is to learn from what is written.I quote God and you disagree with what He says and then attack me. What gives?
Quote “The Rock, perfect is his activity,”
Jehovah is unquestionably perfect. Yet when someone called Jesus “good,” didn't Jesus say no one is good except his Father? Yes, Jehovah, who's perfect, is also described as good.
What does this Biblical fact tell us?
Something being called good does not mean it isn't perfect.
Something can be called good or very good and still be perfect.
Jehovah certain could be described as good, and he was also perfect.Quote This is a biblical forum and while you are entitled to express whatever opinions you may have or derivations from scripture you hold dear the aim here is to learn from what is written. I quote God and you disagree with what He says and then attack me. What gives?
Where did I disagree with what God says?
This is what you keep quoting in your belief that Adam wasn't perfect. You claim God only said that all he made was “very good.”
Gen 1.31
” God saw all that He had made and behold it was very good”I too am pointing out a scripture. Jehovah is perfect. His activity is perfect. This is what the Bible says. From the Bible we also learn that something can be called “good” and at the same time be absolutely perfect, as Jehovah is perfect. You cannot argue that fact. Yet, Jesus said that only one could be called good, His Father.
If it sounded like I was attacking you, it is because you are accusing Jehovah of creating something flawed, of making a mistake in his creation. This goes against the scritpure I provided.
It also goes against logic. You are not the judge of what is perfect. Jehovah is. Therefore, anything Jehovah makes is perfect. YOU are not in a position to question it. However anything Jehovah creates turns out, it must be perfect. If we do not see it as perfect, then it must be our perception that is wrong.david.
Quote (david @ Dec. 18 2005,23:30) Quote “The Rock, perfect is his activity,”
Jehovah is unquestionably perfect. Yet when someone called Jesus “good,” didn't Jesus say no one is good except his Father? Yes, Jehovah, who's perfect, is also described as good.
What does this Biblical fact tell us?
Something being called good does not mean it isn't perfect.
Something can be called good or very good and still be perfect.
Jehovah certain could be described as good, and he was also perfect.Quote This is a biblical forum and while you are entitled to express whatever opinions you may have or derivations from scripture you hold dear the aim here is to learn from what is written. I quote God and you disagree with what He says and then attack me. What gives?
Where did I disagree with what God says?
This is what you keep quoting in your belief that Adam wasn't perfect. You claim God only said that all he made was “very good.”
Gen 1.31
” God saw all that He had made and behold it was very good”I too am pointing out a scripture. Jehovah is perfect. His activity is perfect. This is what the Bible says. From the Bible we also learn that something can be called “good” and at the same time be absolutely perfect, as Jehovah is perfect. You cannot argue that fact. Yet, Jesus said that only one could be called good, His Father.
If it sounded like I was attacking you, it is because you are accusing Jehovah of creating something flawed, of making a mistake in his creation. This goes against the scritpure I provided.
It also goes against logic. You are not the judge of what is perfect. Jehovah is. Therefore, anything Jehovah makes is perfect. YOU are not in a position to question it. However anything Jehovah creates turns out, it must be perfect. If we do not see it as perfect, then it must be our perception that is wrong.david.
Nick,I don't attack anyone. All I did was disagree. My God doesn't make mistakes.
Are you ok? Didn't you have surgey again? I'll have to double up on my prayers
Get some rest!Quote (david @ Dec. 18 2005,05:30) Quote “The Rock, perfect is his activity,”
Jehovah is unquestionably perfect. Yet when someone called Jesus “good,” didn't Jesus say no one is good except his Father? Yes, Jehovah, who's perfect, is also described as good.
What does this Biblical fact tell us?
Something being called good does not mean it isn't perfect.
Something can be called good or very good and still be perfect.
Jehovah certain could be described as good, and he was also perfect.Quote This is a biblical forum and while you are entitled to express whatever opinions you may have or derivations from scripture you hold dear the aim here is to learn from what is written. I quote God and you disagree with what He says and then attack me. What gives?
Where did I disagree with what God says?
This is what you keep quoting in your belief that Adam wasn't perfect. You claim God only said that all he made was “very good.”
Gen 1.31
” God saw all that He had made and behold it was very good”I too am pointing out a scripture. Jehovah is perfect. His activity is perfect. This is what the Bible says. From the Bible we also learn that something can be called “good” and at the same time be absolutely perfect, as Jehovah is perfect. You cannot argue that fact. Yet, Jesus said that only one could be called good, His Father.
If it sounded like I was attacking you, it is because you are accusing Jehovah of creating something flawed, of making a mistake in his creation. This goes against the scritpure I provided.
It also goes against logic. You are not the judge of what is perfect. Jehovah is. Therefore, anything Jehovah makes is perfect. YOU are not in a position to question it. However anything Jehovah creates turns out, it must be perfect. If we do not see it as perfect, then it must be our perception that is wrong.david.
OK kenrch,
If you are so sure of what God did and that He made Adam perfect then show me the scripture that says so. You will find there are none so surely you realy should not make doctrinal statements about what is not revealed.The verse I showed you is towards the end of the creation of God and that creation included the creation of man in Gen1.27
” God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them”
Then it says
” God saw all that He had made and, behold, it was very good”So God did not choose to use the word “perfect” here so why would we call Him a liar? We should either write our own bible or believe the Words of God surely rather than wandering off into inadequate derived human reasonings?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2005,23:52) Quote (david @ Dec. 18 2005,05:30) Quote “The Rock, perfect is his activity,”
Jehovah is unquestionably perfect. Yet when someone called Jesus “good,” didn't Jesus say no one is good except his Father? Yes, Jehovah, who's perfect, is also described as good.
What does this Biblical fact tell us?
Something being called good does not mean it isn't perfect.
Something can be called good or very good and still be perfect.
Jehovah certain could be described as good, and he was also perfect.Quote This is a biblical forum and while you are entitled to express whatever opinions you may have or derivations from scripture you hold dear the aim here is to learn from what is written. I quote God and you disagree with what He says and then attack me. What gives?
Where did I disagree with what God says?
This is what you keep quoting in your belief that Adam wasn't perfect. You claim God only said that all he made was “very good.”
Gen 1.31
” God saw all that He had made and behold it was very good”I too am pointing out a scripture. Jehovah is perfect. His activity is perfect. This is what the Bible says. From the Bible we also learn that something can be called “good” and at the same time be absolutely perfect, as Jehovah is perfect. You cannot argue that fact. Yet, Jesus said that only one could be called good, His Father.
If it sounded like I was attacking you, it is because you are accusing Jehovah of creating something flawed, of making a mistake in his creation. This goes against the scritpure I provided.
It also goes against logic. You are not the judge of what is perfect. Jehovah is. Therefore, anything Jehovah makes is perfect. YOU are not in a position to question it. However anything Jehovah creates turns out, it must be perfect. If we do not see it as perfect, then it must be our perception that is wrong.david.
OK kenrch,
If you are so sure of what God did and that He made Adam perfect then show me the scripture that says so. You will find there are none so surely you realy should not make doctrinal statements about what is not revealed.The verse I showed you is towards the end of the creation of God and that creation included the creation of man in Gen1.27
” God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them”
Then it says
” God saw all that He had made and, behold, it was very good”So God did not choose to use the word “perfect” here so why would we call Him a liar? We should either write our own bible or believe the Words of God surely rather than wandering off into inadequate derived human reasonings?
Nick,
Are you born again?Hi kenrch,
I have followed the way of Jesus Christ into his death and received the first fruits and the hope of his resurrection.
How about you?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2005,13:08) Hi kenrch,
I have followed the way of Jesus Christ into his death and received the first fruits and the hope of his resurrection.
How about you?
You sure don't act like someone who is guided by the Holy Spirit. This little hissy fit isn't from the Spirit. Nick it's ok to be wrong every now and then and until you learn how to admit it you'll never go any further in your spiritual growth.I'll tell you again your pride is getting in the way of your growth. You can't here the Holy Spirit because all you hear is yourself. I've been where your at Nick your never wrong. Now isn't that right?
Hi kenrch,
Rom 6.3f
” Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesuus have been baptised into his death. Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For we who have been united with him in the likeness of his death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection; knowing this, that our old body was crucified with him, in order that our body of sin be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves of sin; for he who has died is freed from sin”Repentance and baptism in water for the forgiveness of sin is an easy crucifixion. The downpayment of the Spirit in power and grace can be recieved now with the promise of joining with the assembly of firstborn from the dead.
Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 18 2005,19:37) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2005,13:08) Hi kenrch,
I have followed the way of Jesus Christ into his death and received the first fruits and the hope of his resurrection.
How about you?
You sure don't act like someone who is guided by the Holy Spirit. This little hissy fit isn't from the Spirit. Nick it's ok to be wrong every now and then and until you learn how to admit it you'll never go any further in your spiritual growth.I'll tell you again your pride is getting in the way of your growth. You can't here the Holy Spirit because all you hear is yourself. I've been where your at Nick your never wrong. Now isn't that right?
Hi kenrch,
When I know that you are free from pride to be able to judge in these matters I will respond.
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