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Kenrch, here are some other things to consider:
In order to gain God’s favor, must everyone must be “born again”?
Not at all. Jesus’ sacrifice covers more than the 144,000 persons who have been specially chosen to be with him in the heavens. When the apostle John wrote to “born again” Christians toward the end of the first century, he said regarding the sacrifice of Jesus: “HE IS A PROPITIATORY SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS, YET NOT FOR OURS ONLY BUT ALSO FOR THE WHOLE WORLD’S.” (1 John 2:2) How is this so?
Those who are “born again” will rule with Jesus Christ in Jehovah’s heavenly Kingdom to bring benefits to others of mankind who will live on earth. This was foretold in a remarkable promise made to Jesus’ forefather Abraham almost 4,000 years ago. “BY MEANS OF YOUR SEED ALL NATIONS OF THE EARTH WILL CERTAINLY BLESS THEMSELVES,” Jehovah told Abraham. (Genesis 22:18) Yes, great blessings were to be made available to all nations through Abraham’s “seed”!
Who was that “seed”? Jesus Christ, joined by his genuine “born again” followers. The apostle Paul explains: “MOREOVER, IF YOU BELONG TO CHRIST, YOU ARE REALLY ABRAHAM’S SEED.” (Galatians 3:16, 29)
And what are the blessings that come to people of all nations through Jesus Christ and these “born again” disciples? The privilege of being restored to God’s favor and enjoying all his provisions for a paradise earth.—Genesis 1:27, 28; Psalm 37:29; Proverbs 2:21, 22; Isaiah 45:18.
So the 144,000 “born again” disciples will “enter into the [heavenly] kingdom of God” to administer the marvelous blessings that God’s Kingdom will bring to untold millions right here on the earth. (Matthew 6:10; Romans 8:19-21; Revelation 21:1-5)Must everyone be “born again” to gain God’s favor?
No. You must be born again to be a part of the “LITTLE FLOCK” who the “Father has approved of giving” “the kingdom,” or God’s “system of government,” according to Nick. (Read Luke 12:32) This kingdom will bestow blessings on the “OTHER SHEEP.” (John 10:16)david.
Quote (david @ Dec. 14 2005,07:17) Quote Hi david, A kingdom is a system of government under one king who can delegate roles and responsibilities.
On Dec 13, you said the above.
Hi david,
Indeed a kingdom is, among other things, a “system of government”.
In this context “Kingdom” is a noun and “government” is a verb.
You could substitute “governing ” for government.
However there is no verb substitute such as “kinging”So that does not mean you can substitute the word “kingdom” with the word “government”.
A government, in fact, is not a kingdom at all.A kingdom needs a king. A government does not.
A government without the qualifying words”system of” indeed means something quite different. It instead means the small group of leaders who govern many.
An apple is a fruit.
But you cannot substitute the words without distorting the meaning because a fruit is not necessarily an apple.A basilica is a church.
But church has wider meanings and so a church is not neceassarily a basilica and the words are not substitutable.Quote (david @ Dec. 14 2005,07:47) Kenrch, here are some other things to consider: In order to gain God’s favor, must everyone must be “born again”?
Not at all. Jesus’ sacrifice covers more than the 144,000 persons who have been specially chosen to be with him in the heavens. When the apostle John wrote to “born again” Christians toward the end of the first century, he said regarding the sacrifice of Jesus: “HE IS A PROPITIATORY SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS, YET NOT FOR OURS ONLY BUT ALSO FOR THE WHOLE WORLD’S.” (1 John 2:2) How is this so?
Those who are “born again” will rule with Jesus Christ in Jehovah’s heavenly Kingdom to bring benefits to others of mankind who will live on earth. This was foretold in a remarkable promise made to Jesus’ forefather Abraham almost 4,000 years ago. “BY MEANS OF YOUR SEED ALL NATIONS OF THE EARTH WILL CERTAINLY BLESS THEMSELVES,” Jehovah told Abraham. (Genesis 22:18) Yes, great blessings were to be made available to all nations through Abraham’s “seed”!
Who was that “seed”? Jesus Christ, joined by his genuine “born again” followers. The apostle Paul explains: “MOREOVER, IF YOU BELONG TO CHRIST, YOU ARE REALLY ABRAHAM’S SEED.” (Galatians 3:16, 29)
And what are the blessings that come to people of all nations through Jesus Christ and these “born again” disciples? The privilege of being restored to God’s favor and enjoying all his provisions for a paradise earth.—Genesis 1:27, 28; Psalm 37:29; Proverbs 2:21, 22; Isaiah 45:18.
So the 144,000 “born again” disciples will “enter into the [heavenly] kingdom of God” to administer the marvelous blessings that God’s Kingdom will bring to untold millions right here on the earth. (Matthew 6:10; Romans 8:19-21; Revelation 21:1-5)Must everyone be “born again” to gain God’s favor?
No. You must be born again to be a part of the “LITTLE FLOCK” who the “Father has approved of giving” “the kingdom,” or God’s “system of government,” according to Nick. (Read Luke 12:32) This kingdom will bestow blessings on the “OTHER SHEEP.” (John 10:16)david.
Hi david,
Are you then espousing the heresy of universalism?“All ARE saved by the work of Jesus. None can be or will be lost.”
So those who are born again only have the 'advantage' of being the leaders in the kingdom.If so s this folly official JW doctrine or only yours?
Hi david,
It is said of Jesus
“and the government shall be upon his shoulder”
That is he is the highest appointed King in the kingdom of God.
When he said
” the kingdom of God is among you”
he was saying that though the full expression of the kingdom would be when he returns already the King was on earth and the members of that kingdom were beginning to be established in him.And if he said
“You MUST BE born again”
I think we should listen to him rather than set up rationalisations and justifications for what we have decided to accept from the bible.Hi david
“It is possible to have the Holy Spirit without being born again”
Sure.
But it ignores verses like
“Unless you repent you will all likewise perish”The only scripture in Acts that supports your thoughts is what happened with Cornelius and his friends.
They were baptised sovereignly by God, in the Spirit, without passing through the water.
But the reaction of Peter tells us that both are required
Acts 10.43f
“All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God.
Then Peter answered
'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptised who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?'
And he ordered them to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ”It is also possible to be within the flock of Christ by some other way than going through the gate as Jesus showed in Jn 10. But he called them thieves and robbers.
We should obey and follow him “for whoever wants to save his own life will lose it”
Quote (david @ Dec. 14 2005,07:47) Kenrch, here are some other things to consider: In order to gain God’s favor, must everyone must be “born again”?
Not at all. Jesus’ sacrifice covers more than the 144,000 persons who have been specially chosen to be with him in the heavens. When the apostle John wrote to “born again” Christians toward the end of the first century, he said regarding the sacrifice of Jesus: “HE IS A PROPITIATORY SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS, YET NOT FOR OURS ONLY BUT ALSO FOR THE WHOLE WORLD’S.” (1 John 2:2) How is this so?
Those who are “born again” will rule with Jesus Christ in Jehovah’s heavenly Kingdom to bring benefits to others of mankind who will live on earth. This was foretold in a remarkable promise made to Jesus’ forefather Abraham almost 4,000 years ago. “BY MEANS OF YOUR SEED ALL NATIONS OF THE EARTH WILL CERTAINLY BLESS THEMSELVES,” Jehovah told Abraham. (Genesis 22:18) Yes, great blessings were to be made available to all nations through Abraham’s “seed”!
Who was that “seed”? Jesus Christ, joined by his genuine “born again” followers. The apostle Paul explains: “MOREOVER, IF YOU BELONG TO CHRIST, YOU ARE REALLY ABRAHAM’S SEED.” (Galatians 3:16, 29)
And what are the blessings that come to people of all nations through Jesus Christ and these “born again” disciples? The privilege of being restored to God’s favor and enjoying all his provisions for a paradise earth.—Genesis 1:27, 28; Psalm 37:29; Proverbs 2:21, 22; Isaiah 45:18.
So the 144,000 “born again” disciples will “enter into the [heavenly] kingdom of God” to administer the marvelous blessings that God’s Kingdom will bring to untold millions right here on the earth. (Matthew 6:10; Romans 8:19-21; Revelation 21:1-5)Must everyone be “born again” to gain God’s favor?
No. You must be born again to be a part of the “LITTLE FLOCK” who the “Father has approved of giving” “the kingdom,” or God’s “system of government,” according to Nick. (Read Luke 12:32) This kingdom will bestow blessings on the “OTHER SHEEP.” (John 10:16)david.
Hi david,
That really is an awful twisted bible translation you use
Gen 22.18
” In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice”
Yours can be made to sound as though this means all men of all nations will be blessed by God through Abraham. Of course that is not true as only a remnant is ever blessed but they will come from every corner of the earth.Of course
“God wants all men to be saved”
but
“the road is narrow and few will choose it”“Unless you repent you will ALL LIKEWISE PERISH” gives an entirely different perspective.
Quote Hi david,
Indeed a kingdom is, among other things, a “system of government”.
In this context “Kingdom” is a noun and “government” is a verb. [WELL, NOT TRUE GRAMMATICALLY SPEAKING, BUT WHATEVER]
You could substitute “governing ” for government.
However there is no verb substitute such as “kinging”So that does not mean you can substitute the word “kingdom” with the word “government”.
A government, in fact, is not a kingdom at all.
[[RIGHT, THE WORD “GOVERNMENT” DOESN'T MEAN “KINGDOM,” BUT VERY DEFINITELY SOME GOVERNENTS ARE KINGDOMS. SOME GOVERNMENTS ARE DEMOCRACY'S. SOME GOVERNMENTS ARE…]]
A kingdom needs a king. A government does not.
[[RIGHT, BUT SOME GOVERNMENTS (THE ONES THAT ARE “KINGDOMS”) DO NEED A KING]]
A government without the qualifying words”system of” indeed means something quite different. It instead means the small group of leaders who govern many.An apple is a fruit.
But you cannot substitute the words without distorting the meaning because a fruit is not necessarily an apple.A basilica is a church.
But church has wider meanings and so a church is not neceassarily a basilica and the words are not substitutable.Yes, and often when I have said that God's kingdom is a government, I mentioned that it was a government run by a king.
A democracy is a government run by the people
A theocracy is a government by divine guidance.
A dictatorship is a government run by a dictator.
There are many forms of government.
A kingdom is a government monarchical form of government headed by a king (or queen)Nick, the reason i substituted the word goverment was that you weren't getting that God's kingdom is a government or system of government.
Nick, I have never said that every government is a kingdom, but only that the kingdom is a goverment.
Nick, I have never said to substitute the word “kingdom” for government, because as you have said, a goverenment isn't necessarily a kingdom.
Nick, i have substituted for you the word “government” for kingdom, because every kingdom is a goverment and you weren't getting what a government ….fine, what “system of government” was.Where there is a government, there are the goverened by the government…or “system of government.” Please look up the word “government,” and you will see that since there are those who make up the kingdom (“system of government”) there must also be those who they govern. Of course, the Bible doesn't use the word “govern.” It uses the word “rule.” They will rule over those who don't make up this system of government.
david
Quote Hi david,
Are you then espousing the heresy of universalism?“All ARE saved by the work of Jesus. None can be or will be lost.”
So those who are born again only have the 'advantage' of being the leaders in the kingdom.
It is not an advantage Nick. It is a grand privilege. Some were privileged to write Bible books. Some were privileged to witness Jesus birth. Some were privileged to walk through the red sea.
Nick, humility is something we all need. Nick, it is God's undeserved kindness that results in any gift he gives us. He owes us nothing. If he wisely and chooses some who have experiences the trials of being human to be our judges and kings, then who are we to question it?
I am uncertain why you keep flinging about the word “universalism.”Quote And if he said
“You MUST BE born again”
I think we should listen to him rather than set up rationalisations and justifications for what we have decided to accept from the bible.
Ah, but this is my very point Nick. He didn't say: “You must be born again.” He said 'You must be born again to enter the kingdom.'Quote Hi david
“It is possible to have the Holy Spirit without being born again”
Sure.
But it ignores verses like
“Unless you repent you will all likewise perish”
How does it ignore scriptures like this?Quote Hi david,
That really is an awful twisted bible translation you use
Gen 22.18
” In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice”
Yours can be made to sound as though this means all men of all nations will be blessed by God through Abraham. Of course that is not true as only a remnant is ever blessed but they will come from every corner of the earth.Hey Nick. Actually, you're wrong again. I just checked the first eight or so Bible's I could find on that Bible gateway thing. The NASB was the only one that didn't say pretty much exactly what my Bible said. Sorry. I would have went through the trouble of copying and pasting them, but I'm getting tired of doing that all the time. And you would have just ignored your being wrong anyway and bounced to somthing else.
Quote (Bastian @ Dec. 15 2005,10:37) Was Adam created immortal?
Good question. I would answer yes, based on the fact that sin was the reason for death. Death was both exemplified spiritually by him being placed outside of the garden, and in Gen 5:5 Adam died physically. The book of Genesis seems to imply that if he never disobeyed God Adam would have lived.Quote (Bastian @ Dec. 15 2005,15:37) Was Adam created immortal?
Hi bastion,
No. God threw them out of Eden glad they had not yet tasted of the tree of life [Gen 3.22]that would have given them eternal life.
Adam was created second hand out of dust. Then the perfect breath of God was blown into Him but his dust character was never lost
“remember man that though art dust and unto dust though shalt return”
God said His creation was very good, but never perfect as suits some doctrinal stances.Quote (david @ Dec. 15 2005,05:42) Quote Hi david,
That really is an awful twisted bible translation you use
Gen 22.18
” In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice”
Yours can be made to sound as though this means all men of all nations will be blessed by God through Abraham. Of course that is not true as only a remnant is ever blessed but they will come from every corner of the earth.Hey Nick. Actually, you're wrong again. I just checked the first eight or so Bible's I could find on that Bible gateway thing. The NASB was the only one that didn't say pretty much exactly what my Bible said. Sorry. I would have went through the trouble of copying and pasting them, but I'm getting tired of doing that all the time. And you would have just ignored your being wrong anyway and bounced to somthing else.
Hi ,
Does anyone else think all are saved except the utterly evil?Quote (david @ Dec. 15 2005,05:35) Quote Hi david
“It is possible to have the Holy Spirit without being born again”
Sure.
But it ignores verses like
“Unless you repent you will all likewise perish”
How does it ignore scriptures like this?
Hi david,
The order given by God's Spirit to Peter after faith is“repent
and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins
and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”All are necessary even if God allows the order to be varied.
Thuis is the Way of Christ. Without repentance and baptism no one is saved [except by the sovereign choice of God]
Quote (david @ Dec. 15 2005,05:25) Quote Hi david,
Indeed a kingdom is, among other things, a “system of government”.
In this context “Kingdom” is a noun and “government” is a verb. [WELL, NOT TRUE GRAMMATICALLY SPEAKING, BUT WHATEVER]
You could substitute “governing ” for government.
However there is no verb substitute such as “kinging”So that does not mean you can substitute the word “kingdom” with the word “government”.
A government, in fact, is not a kingdom at all.
[[RIGHT, THE WORD “GOVERNMENT” DOESN'T MEAN “KINGDOM,” BUT VERY DEFINITELY SOME GOVERNENTS ARE KINGDOMS. SOME GOVERNMENTS ARE DEMOCRACY'S. SOME GOVERNMENTS ARE…]]
A kingdom needs a king. A government does not.
[[RIGHT, BUT SOME GOVERNMENTS (THE ONES THAT ARE “KINGDOMS”) DO NEED A KING]]
A government without the qualifying words”system of” indeed means something quite different. It instead means the small group of leaders who govern many.An apple is a fruit.
But you cannot substitute the words without distorting the meaning because a fruit is not necessarily an apple.A basilica is a church.
But church has wider meanings and so a church is not neceassarily a basilica and the words are not substitutable.Yes, and often when I have said that God's kingdom is a government, I mentioned that it was a government run by a king.
A democracy is a government run by the people
A theocracy is a government by divine guidance.
A dictatorship is a government run by a dictator.
There are many forms of government.
A kingdom is a government monarchical form of government headed by a king (or queen)Nick, the reason i substituted the word goverment was that you weren't getting that God's kingdom is a government or system of government.
Nick, I have never said that every government is a kingdom, but only that the kingdom is a goverment.
Nick, I have never said to substitute the word “kingdom” for government, because as you have said, a goverenment isn't necessarily a kingdom.
Nick, i have substituted for you the word “government” for kingdom, because every kingdom is a goverment and you weren't getting what a government ….fine, what “system of government” was.Where there is a government, there are the goverened by the government…or “system of government.” Please look up the word “government,” and you will see that since there are those who make up the kingdom (“system of government”) there must also be those who they govern. Of course, the Bible doesn't use the word “govern.” It uses the word “rule.” They will rule over those who don't make up this system of government.
david
Hi david,
You seem to have missed again the kernel that a “kingdom” is not just a ruling individual or body of rulers but includes subjects and boundaries.None of the others does so.
When you enter the kingdom of Tonga you are not a Tongan or a taxpayer in that country. Tonga is a land area ruled by a King.
So to enter the kingdom is to become a part of the body of Christ, an obedient subject of Jesus Christ under God, but not necessarily a ruler. That is the message of Christ that all must go through the gate into obedience to his dominion.
Acts 26.17f
“…I am sending you to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the Dominion of Satan to God..”
Coll 1.13f
” For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the Kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins”
Rev 5.9f
“Worthy are you to take the book and break it's seals; for you were slain, and purchased for God with your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth”
They will be rulers and priests. But not all will be priests and not all will be rulers or it would say so.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 15 2005,12:18) Quote (Bastian @ Dec. 15 2005,15:37) Was Adam created immortal?
Hi bastion,
No. God threw them out of Eden glad they had not yet tasted of the tree of life [Gen 3.22]that would have given them eternal life.
Adam was created second hand out of dust. Then the perfect breath of God was blown into Him but his dust character was never lost
“remember man that though art dust and unto dust though shalt return”
God said His creation was very good, but never perfect as suits some doctrinal stances.
God threw them out after sin. The question is was Adam made immortal? We know after sin man should return to the dust. Also after sin God said, “lest he eat of the tree of life”, but is there any scriptural proof that before sin entered the world there was death?Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned (Romans 5:12). We see here death was a result of sin. I guess it really doesn't matter seeing that Adam did sin and died.
Hi sultan,
Gen 3.22
“Then the Lord God said
'Behold the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now he might stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever. So He drove the man out…”Surely says it was possible but had not been grasped.
1Cor 15.53
” For this perishable must put on the imperishable and this mortal must put on immortality”This speaks of the essential body aspect of man [mortality is only a body issue]which is essential for him to be on earth. The inner man or soul goes to sleep in Sheol at death till the resurrection. The chapter discusses the replacement of the perishable body with an imperishable one like that of the man from heaven, for the saved to live 1000 year reign and beyond.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 15 2005,15:14) Hi sultan,
Gen 3.22
“Then the Lord God said
'Behold the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now he might stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever. So He drove the man out…”Surely says it was possible but had not been grasped.
1Cor 15.53
” For this perishable must put on the imperishable and this mortal must put on immortality”This speaks of the essential body aspect of man [mortality is only a body issue]which is essential for him to be on earth. The inner man or soul goes to sleep in Sheol at death till the resurrection. The chapter discusses the replacement of the perishable body with an imperishable one like that of the man from heaven, for the saved to live 1000 year reign and beyond.
Hi Nick,
Also now that I'm thinking about it. Even the society was not perfect seeing that the deceiver was on the loose.
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