Born Again–What is it's purpose?

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,03:50)

But I am the one asserting that that scripture says exactly what it says and no more. Those who make up the kingdom must be born again. My question to you Nick, is what is the kingdom?  Who make it up? What purpose does it serve?

Hi david,

A kingdom is a system of government under one king who can delegate roles and responsibilities.

You agree you must be born again to enter the kingdom.

Jesus is the King of the Kingdom of God under God.

He has kings and priests with appointed roles under him.

But are all the saved in the Kingdom of Jesus “kings and priests”?
It appears not so.
Rev 20 4
” and I saw thrones , and they sat on them, and judgement was given to them. AND I SAW…”

Could some be saved and part of that kingdom without reigning responsibilities?Look at the groupings also shown here;

2Tim 2.11
” It is a trustworthy statement;
If we have died with him, we will also live with him
IF WE ENDURE, WE WILL ALSO REIGN WITH HIM…”

Only those who endure.

[david]

Hi Kenrch,
COLOSSIANS 3:9-10
“Strip off the old personality with its practices, and clothe yourselves with the new [personality], which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it,”
EPHESIANS 4:23-24
“but that YOU should be made new in the force actuating YOUR mind, and should put on the new personality which was created according to God’s will in true righteousness and loyalty.”
ROMANS 12:2
“And quit being fashioned after this system of things, but be transformed by making YOUR mind over, that YOU may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.”

Paul says: “[You] should put on the new personality which was created according to God’s will in true righteousness and loyalty.” (Ephesians 4:24) Yes, a Christian puts on a new personality. “New” here refers, not to time, but to quality. That is to say, it is not new in the sense of being the latest version. It is a completely new, fresh personality “created according to God’s will.” At Colossians 3:10, Paul used similar language and said that it is “being made new according to the image of the One who created it.”

Kenrch, we can and should do as much as we can to transform ourselves now. (We do not have to be reborn to do so) But we can only do so much. Right now, sin is ruling as king. But this will not always be.
That redeemed mankind will experience the removal of tears, mourning, outcry, pain, and death is guaranteed by the prophetic picture at Revelation 21:1-5. Through Adam, sin, and consequent suffering and death, entered the human race (Ro 5:12), and these are certainly among “the former things” due to pass away. Death is the wages of sin, and as “the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing” through Christ’s Kingdom rule. (Ro 6:23; 1Co 15:25, 26, 56) For obedient mankind this means a return to the perfect state enjoyed by man at the beginning of human history in Eden. Thus, humans will be able to enjoy not only perfection as to faith and love but perfection as to sinlessness; they will measure up fully and faultlessly to God’s righteous standards for humans. The prophecy at Revelation 21:1-5 likewise relates to the Thousand Year Reign of Christ, since the “New Jerusalem,” whose “coming down out of heaven” is linked with the removal of mankind’s afflictions, is shown to be Christ’s “bride,” or glorified congregation, hence those composing the royal priesthood of Christ’s Millennial Rule.—Re 21:9, 10; Eph 5:25-32; 1Pe 2:9; Re 20:4-6.

Kenrch, Nick believes no one ever goes to heaven at all ever. What are your scriptural thoughts on this?

[david]

Quote

A kingdom is a system of government under one king who can delegate roles and responsibilities.

There is Jesus. But clearly Jehovah saw fit to have others ruling as kings.
DANIEL 7:14
“And to him [Jesus] there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.” (Jesus is given rulership. But he’s not the only one.)
DANIEL 7:18
“But the HOLY ONES of the Supreme One will RECEIVE THE KINGDOM, and they will take possession of the kingdom for time indefinite, even for time indefinite upon times indefinite.’”
DANIEL 7:21-22
““….until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that THE HOLY ONES TOOK POSSESSION OF THE KINGDOM ITSELF.”
DANIEL 2:44
““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the KINGDOM ITSELF WILL NOT BE PASSED ON TO ANY OTHER PEOPLE. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;”

So, Daniel was inspired to say that the Kingdom would be given not just to “someone like a son of man” (7:13) but also “to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One.”—Daniel 7:27.
REVELATION 1:6
“and he MADE US TO BE A KINGDOM, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.”

So, very clearly, these holy ones make up the kingdom. They are the kingdom (the government.)

But do they rule as kings?
Revelation says of the Lamb, Christ Jesus: “You bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to RULE AS KINGS OVER THE EARTH.” It further says that they will become “priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.” Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6.

Quote

But are all the saved in the Kingdom of Jesus “kings and priests”? It appears not so. Rev 20 4 ” and I saw thrones , and they sat on them, and judgement was given to them. AND I SAW…”

Nick, we've been over this in other threads. It is possible for Jehovah God to be a Father, and a Creator, and a Lord, and God Almighty, etc, etc.
They could be kings, priests, and judges.

But really, you should do a little more research on kings and their responsibilities in Biblical times. They often served as judges. Remember Solomon the prostitutes and the baby? Also, do you remember when Jehovah ruled Israel through judges? (Jg 8:23; 1Sa 12:12)
The Law, at Deuteronomy 17:18, 19, required the king, upon taking his throne, to write out for himself a copy of the Law and to read in it daily, so that he would be properly qualified to judge difficult cases. David was maneuvered by the prophet Nathan into sitting in judgment in his own case in the matter of Bath-sheba and Uriah the Hittite. (2Sa 12:1-6) Joab shrewdly sent a Tekoite woman to present a case to David in behalf of Absalom. (2Sa 14:1-21) Before his death David appointed 6,000 qualified Levites to act as officers and judges in Israel. (1Ch 23:4) King Solomon was renowned for his wisdom in judging. A case that brought him widespread fame was the maternity case of two prostitutes. (1Ki 3:16-28) Jehoshaphat conducted a religious reform in Judah and strengthened the judicial arrangement.—2Ch 19:5-11.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,07:16)

Quote A kingdom is a system of government under one king who can delegate roles and responsibilities. There is Jesus.  But clearly Jehovah saw fit to have others ruling as kings. DANIEL 7:14 “And to him [Jesus] there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.” (Jesus is given rulership.  But he’s not the only one.) DANIEL 7:18 “But the HOLY ONES of the Supreme One will RECEIVE THE KINGDOM, and they will take possession of the kingdom for time indefinite, even for time indefinite upon times indefinite.’” DANIEL 7:21-22 ““….until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that THE HOLY ONES TOOK POSSESSION OF THE KINGDOM ITSELF.” DANIEL 2:44 ““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the KINGDOM ITSELF WILL NOT BE PASSED ON TO ANY OTHER PEOPLE. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;” So, Daniel was inspired to say that the Kingdom would be given not just to “someone like a son of man” (7:13) but also “to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One.”—Daniel 7:27. REVELATION 1:6 “and he MADE US TO BE A KINGDOM, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.” So, very clearly, these holy ones make up the kingdom.  They are the kingdom (the government.) But do they rule as kings? Revelation says of the Lamb, Christ Jesus: “You bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to RULE AS KINGS OVER THE EARTH.” It further says that they will become “priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”  Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6. Quote But are all the saved in the Kingdom of Jesus “kings and priests”? It appears not so. Rev 20 4 ” and I saw thrones , and they sat on them, and judgement was given to them. AND I SAW…” Nick, we've been over this in other threads.  It is possible for Jehovah God to be a Father, and a Creator, and a Lord, and God Almighty, etc, etc. They could be kings, priests, and judges. But really, you should do a little more research on kings and their responsibilities in Biblical times.  They often served as judges.  Remember Solomon the prostitutes and the baby?  Also, do you remember when Jehovah ruled Israel through judges? (Jg 8:23; 1Sa 12:12)   The Law, at Deuteronomy 17:18, 19, required the king, upon taking his throne, to write out for himself a copy of the Law and to read in it daily, so that he would be properly qualified to judge difficult cases. David was maneuvered by the prophet Nathan into sitting in judgment in his own case in the matter of Bath-sheba and Uriah the Hittite. (2Sa 12:1-6) Joab shrewdly sent a Tekoite woman to present a case to David in behalf of Absalom. (2Sa 14:1-21) Before his death David appointed 6,000 qualified Levites to act as officers and judges in Israel. (1Ch 23:4) King Solomon was renowned for his wisdom in judging. A case that brought him widespread fame was the maternity case of two prostitutes. (1Ki 3:16-28) Jehoshaphat conducted a religious reform in Judah and strengthened the judicial arrangement.—2Ch 19:5-11.

Hi david,
What we have agreed is that not ALL the “holy ones” are kings and rulers. What you then need to show that those who are not rulers do not have to be reborn to be IN the kingdom.

To enter the kingdom is not then to necessarily be a ruler but includes the subjects of that rule. Scripture seems to suggest that to even be among those who are ruled one must be born again.

Though not rulers they also as subjects are part of the kingdom, and you have to be reborn to be a part of this kingdom at all.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,07:16)

Quote A kingdom is a system of government under one king who can delegate roles and responsibilities. There is Jesus.  But clearly Jehovah saw fit to have others ruling as kings. DANIEL 7:14 “And to him [Jesus] there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.” (Jesus is given rulership.  But he’s not the only one.) DANIEL 7:18 “But the HOLY ONES of the Supreme One will RECEIVE THE KINGDOM, and they will take possession of the kingdom for time indefinite, even for time indefinite upon times indefinite.’” DANIEL 7:21-22 ““….until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that THE HOLY ONES TOOK POSSESSION OF THE KINGDOM ITSELF.” DANIEL 2:44 ““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the KINGDOM ITSELF WILL NOT BE PASSED ON TO ANY OTHER PEOPLE. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;” So, Daniel was inspired to say that the Kingdom would be given not just to “someone like a son of man” (7:13) but also “to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One.”—Daniel 7:27. REVELATION 1:6 “and he MADE US TO BE A KINGDOM, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.” So, very clearly, these holy ones make up the kingdom.  They are the kingdom (the government.) But do they rule as kings? Revelation says of the Lamb, Christ Jesus: “You bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to RULE AS KINGS OVER THE EARTH.” It further says that they will become “priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”  Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6. Quote But are all the saved in the Kingdom of Jesus “kings and priests”? It appears not so. Rev 20 4 ” and I saw thrones , and they sat on them, and judgement was given to them. AND I SAW…” Nick, we've been over this in other threads.  It is possible for Jehovah God to be a Father, and a Creator, and a Lord, and God Almighty, etc, etc. They could be kings, priests, and judges. But really, you should do a little more research on kings and their responsibilities in Biblical times.  They often served as judges.  Remember Solomon the prostitutes and the baby?  Also, do you remember when Jehovah ruled Israel through judges? (Jg 8:23; 1Sa 12:12)   The Law, at Deuteronomy 17:18, 19, required the king, upon taking his throne, to write out for himself a copy of the Law and to read in it daily, so that he would be properly qualified to judge difficult cases. David was maneuvered by the prophet Nathan into sitting in judgment in his own case in the matter of Bath-sheba and Uriah the Hittite. (2Sa 12:1-6) Joab shrewdly sent a Tekoite woman to present a case to David in behalf of Absalom. (2Sa 14:1-21) Before his death David appointed 6,000 qualified Levites to act as officers and judges in Israel. (1Ch 23:4) King Solomon was renowned for his wisdom in judging. A case that brought him widespread fame was the maternity case of two prostitutes. (1Ki 3:16-28) Jehoshaphat conducted a religious reform in Judah and strengthened the judicial arrangement.—2Ch 19:5-11.

Hi david,
So Daniel clearly shows that the Kingdom of God is given to Jesus and other kings under him in the order of authority.

And that handing down of Christ's authority by Jesus is shown in Luke 19 [and matt25]where those who return an investment on the deposit of the Spirit of God are given the reward of reigning authority on earth.

Lk 19 15
” When he returned after receiving the kingdom he ordered that these slaves, to whom he had given the money, be called to him so that he might know what business they had done.
The first appeared saying
'Master, you mina has made 10 minas more'
And he said to him,
'Well done, good slave,because you have been faithful in a very little thing YOU ARE TO BE IN AUTHORiTY OVER TEN CITIES'
The second came, saying
'Your mina, master , has made 5 minas'
And he said to him also
'YOU ARE TO BE OVER FIVE CITIES'..”

This is the initial reward of the holy ones, to reign with Christ , under Christ, under God for 1000 years.

[david]

Quote

What we have agreed is that not ALL the “holy ones” are kings and rulers.

Who is “we?” We are told in several places that the holy ones rule, that they would be priests and judges. These are their roles.

Quote

Scripture seems to suggest that to even be among those who are ruled one must be born again.

Perhaps in your mind scripture might seem to “suggest” this. But it doesn't say it. Remember your councel on speculation?

Quote

his is the initial reward of the holy ones, to reign with Christ , under Christ, under God for 1000 years.

I agree. The “holy ones” will reign as Kings, judges and priests for a thousand years. They will be judging for a thousand years. Judgement Day. They will be priests, applying the benefits of Christs ransom as mankind is brought to perfection. And they will be ruling as Kings with Christ, over the earth and mankind on the earth.

david.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
You seem to miss the 2 points and not addressed the scriptures given:
1. that scripture does say to enter the kingdom you must be born again. That does not say that 'to rule' in the kingdom but just to enter or be a part of the kingdom.
2.Neither does it say or even suggest that all who enter will be kings and priests.

Have you ever been into any kingdom like that of Tonga? To do so did you have to become a leader there? were the subjects part of that kingdom?

If all in a kingdom were rulers what an odd kingdom that would be.

[david]

Quote

that scripture does say to enter the kingdom you must be born again. That does not say that 'to rule' in the kingdom but just to enter or be a part of the kingdom.

OK Nick, before, you agreed that the kingdom was a governemt. Here you say that to “be a part of the kingdom [or government]” you must be born again. I agree. What does it mean to “be a part of a governenment?” I am a citizen of Canada, but not a part of the government in Canada. No one would say that by living in Canada, I am “a part of the government” of Canada. I am under the government, ruled by the government. I benefit by the government….but I am not a part of the governement of Canada. Yet, here I am in Canada.

Quote

Neither does it say or even suggest that all who enter will be kings and priests.

No, it doesn't. But it does in all the many many other scriptures that also speak about the kingdom.

Quote

If all in a kingdom were rulers what an odd kingdom that would be.

Nick, you have said that the kingdom is a government. Substitute the word for a second and repeat what you just said:
“If all in the government were rulers what an odd government that would be.”
There is the government that rule over us for our benefit and there are those who are ruled over, the subjects.
Of course the Kingdom of God isn't run like human governments. But it, like every government has subjects that are not a part of the governement itself.

david.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Dec. 14 2005,03:58)

Quote that scripture does say to enter the kingdom you must be born again. That does not say that 'to rule' in the kingdom but just to enter or be a part of the kingdom. OK Nick, before, you agreed that the kingdom was a governemt.  Here you say that to “be a part of the kingdom [or government]” you must be born again.  I agree.  What does it mean to “be a part of a governenment?”  I am a citizen of Canada, but not a part of the government in Canada.  No one would say that by living in Canada, I am “a part of the government” of Canada.  I am under the government, ruled by the government.  I benefit by the government….but I am not a part of the governement of Canada.  Yet, here I am in Canada. Quote Neither does it say or even suggest that all who enter will be kings and priests. No, it doesn't.  But it does in all the many many other scriptures that also speak about the kingdom. Quote If all in a kingdom were rulers what an odd kingdom that would be. Nick, you have said that the kingdom is a government.  Substitute the word for a second and repeat what you just said: “If all in the government were rulers what an odd government that would be.” There is the government that rule over us for our benefit and there are those who are ruled over, the subjects. Of course the Kingdom of God isn't run like human governments.  But it, like every government has subjects that are not a part of the governement itself. david.

Hi david,
No a Kingdom is not a government and I have never said it is.

A Government only includes the leadership whereas a kingdom includes subjects.

Such subtle sleight of hand!

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
Mt 7.21
“Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven..”
Lk 17.21
“”..For behold the kingdom of God is in your midst”

Scripture is full of references to the kingdom and it is described from many points of view.
It is entered by force, like a seed growing in the soil, like a net full of fish,like a mustard seed etc.

All show different aspects of what it involves. It involves a King, subjects, growth, community etc and these cannot be confined as you have done to just leadership. That is a false view of the Master's words that twists the meaning .

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 14 2005,00:19)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,05:21) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,23:11) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,04:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,22:01) Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,03:50) But I am the one asserting that that scripture says exactly what it says and no more. Those who make up the kingdom must be born again. My question to you Nick, is what is the kingdom?  Who make it up? What purpose does it serve? Hoi david, If Jesus urgently preached the kingdom and gave his life in the process would it be wise to try and figure out some way of joining in without obeying his commands? Does reason have as much validity to you as the Word of God? Is that any form of demonstrated obedience to Christ? Why try to find a back door while the main entrance stands wide open? Certainly some will have to be governed but who they are is not revealed and we are not told to try and climb over the fence and get into the kingdom some other way. In fact those who try are called by him “thieves and robbers” Nick, Their will be the 144k in heaven but the second resurrection are for those who will be on the new earth.  I don't know about you but I would never have made it to the new earth without being new again, completely change on the inside.  I'm will be proud to be one of the people of the saints (Dan. 7:27). Hi kenrch In Heaven? Nick, I don't think I'm one of the 144k.  The 144 are the elect which were chosen long before the earth. Hi kenrch, The 144,000 are “bondservants of our God”. Are they the saved or are they a special group called the first fruits? The predestination thing is interesting. I think God knows the total called chosen and equipped without needing to take away the free will of individual men to choose life. Dunno tho. 1Peter 1.1f “..chosen, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood” Like all of these letters they are only written to the saved so every individual he was writing to was in this group, and all these words applied to them. But did they not have that choice to be there? I believe so. They proved they were among the chosen by responding.

Hi Nick,

The 144k are those chosen before the foundation of the world (Rom.8:30). These have the calling, they have a choice to accept it or not. They would have to say your will not mine. I don't know if the 144k know they are called to the elect. John the Baptist didn't know he was Elias (Matt. 11:10-14).
Are you one of the elect?

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Dec. 14 2005,00:41)

Quote How many million JW's agree with you? You have often pointed out I have very few. Be consistent. Ask yourself the same question using the same logic and answer me…what does that seem to say? It's millions verses billions Nick.  Every tom, dick and Harry believes they are born again and going to heaven.  They don't question why or for what purpose and most don't care.   And it is you who repeatedly say I am in the minority with my “bizarre beliefs.” Quote Quote Right or wrong? you'll have to actually read my post for the answer Nick. Sorry Kenrch.  I thought this was Nick who was asking me this question.  And this question was posted rather quickly after I made my post.  Nick has gained a reputation for answering posts rather quickly, as if without reading them.  Sorry for the mistake Kenrch. Quote I know about the Kingdom (rulership) I'm talking about those in the second reurrection who will be flesh on the new earth. Do they (us) need to be born again , Right or wrong? Kenrch, by inserting the word “us” there, it seems as though you don't believe you will be one of those with rulership.  Could you please explain to Nick how someone can have the holy spirit and be given everlasting life, but yet not be a part of that governement. In answer to your question Kenrch: JOHN 3:5 “Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Quote If I ask you for the time, don't tell me how the watch is made.  Tell me the time.  Right or Wrong ? I'm sorry.  Jesus often answered questions with question.  Questions are great learning tools.  They make you think.  If I tell you something, you may reject it.  But if your own mind arrives on the answer, it is much harder to reject. JOHN 3:5 “Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” What does this scripture say?

David,

This is like the hell question. I just know that a God of love could not burn anyone forever. And so it is with the Kingdom of heven. Certianly those in the first reurrection are born again spirit beings. And then there will be those in the 2nd resurrection who will be as Adam was before the fall, flesh but with no sin (Matt. 5:5.) Maybe Adam will be there he would certainly be born again.

I know that the old me would not be allowed in the new earth. Unless the Father would put up with curseing, steeling, not to mention adultery, fits of rage, and just evil in general.

You do agree that their will be humans on the new earth don't you?

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Dec. 14 2005,00:41)

Quote How many million JW's agree with you? You have often pointed out I have very few. Be consistent. Ask yourself the same question using the same logic and answer me…what does that seem to say? It's millions verses billions Nick.  Every tom, dick and Harry believes they are born again and going to heaven.  They don't question why or for what purpose and most don't care.   And it is you who repeatedly say I am in the minority with my “bizarre beliefs.” Quote Quote Right or wrong? you'll have to actually read my post for the answer Nick. Sorry Kenrch.  I thought this was Nick who was asking me this question.  And this question was posted rather quickly after I made my post.  Nick has gained a reputation for answering posts rather quickly, as if without reading them.  Sorry for the mistake Kenrch. Quote I know about the Kingdom (rulership) I'm talking about those in the second reurrection who will be flesh on the new earth. Do they (us) need to be born again , Right or wrong? Kenrch, by inserting the word “us” there, it seems as though you don't believe you will be one of those with rulership.  Could you please explain to Nick how someone can have the holy spirit and be given everlasting life, but yet not be a part of that governement. In answer to your question Kenrch: JOHN 3:5 “Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Quote If I ask you for the time, don't tell me how the watch is made.  Tell me the time.  Right or Wrong ? I'm sorry.  Jesus often answered questions with question.  Questions are great learning tools.  They make you think.  If I tell you something, you may reject it.  But if your own mind arrives on the answer, it is much harder to reject. JOHN 3:5 “Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” What does this scripture say?

David,

This is like the hell question. I just know that a God of love could not burn anyone forever. And so it is with the Kingdom of heven. Certianly those in the first reurrection are born again spirit beings. And then there will be those in the 2nd resurrection who will be as Adam was before the fall, flesh but with no sin (Matt. 5:5.) Maybe Adam will be there he would certainly be born again.

I know that the old me would not be allowed in the new earth. Unless the Father would put up with curseing, steeling, not to mention adultery, fits of rage, and just evil in general.

You do agree that their will be humans on the new earth don't you?

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Dec. 14 2005,00:41)

Quote How many million JW's agree with you? You have often pointed out I have very few. Be consistent. Ask yourself the same question using the same logic and answer me…what does that seem to say? It's millions verses billions Nick.  Every tom, dick and Harry believes they are born again and going to heaven.  They don't question why or for what purpose and most don't care.   And it is you who repeatedly say I am in the minority with my “bizarre beliefs.” Quote Quote Right or wrong? you'll have to actually read my post for the answer Nick. Sorry Kenrch.  I thought this was Nick who was asking me this question.  And this question was posted rather quickly after I made my post.  Nick has gained a reputation for answering posts rather quickly, as if without reading them.  Sorry for the mistake Kenrch. Quote I know about the Kingdom (rulership) I'm talking about those in the second reurrection who will be flesh on the new earth. Do they (us) need to be born again , Right or wrong? Kenrch, by inserting the word “us” there, it seems as though you don't believe you will be one of those with rulership.  Could you please explain to Nick how someone can have the holy spirit and be given everlasting life, but yet not be a part of that governement. In answer to your question Kenrch: JOHN 3:5 “Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Quote If I ask you for the time, don't tell me how the watch is made.  Tell me the time.  Right or Wrong ? I'm sorry.  Jesus often answered questions with question.  Questions are great learning tools.  They make you think.  If I tell you something, you may reject it.  But if your own mind arrives on the answer, it is much harder to reject. JOHN 3:5 “Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” What does this scripture say?

David,

1 Cor. 6:9-11, Now anyone who can read sees that these scriptures are speaking of the 144k. But does that mean that those of the 2nd resurrection can be like those in 1Cor. 6:9-11. Of course NOT! They must change, and don't be deceived, we can't change ourselves. We must be born again. Do you really think that you can change your nature without the Holy Spirit. Only God can change the way you think. In order to receive the Holy Spirit to change your nature you must born again.
What have you got to loose but your sinful nature.

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

It's just that simple. But it must come from the heart. God doesn't hear lip service.

[NickHassan]

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 14 2005,05:03)

Are you one of the elect?

Hi kenrch,
I cannot judge my own fruit.
Others have with varying opinions.

[david]

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Hi david, A kingdom is a system of government under one king who can delegate roles and responsibilities.

On Dec 13, you said the above.

[david]

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Hi david, No a Kingdom is not a government and I have never said it is. A Government only includes the leadership whereas a kingdom includes subjects. Such subtle sleight of hand!

And this is what you said a day later.
First, you say a kingdom is a system of government. I say you said it. Then you say that you never said the kingdom was a government.
It is you who are using sleight of hand. But your hands aren't very fast.

[david]

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Hi david, Mt 7.21 “Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven..” Lk 17.21 “”..For behold the kingdom of God is in your midst”

Right, a lot of people, and I mean a lot of people who think they are born again, aren't. Not everyone saying: Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom.
“REBIRTH IS RAMPANT.” Thus was headed a press dispatch from Los Angeles that appeared in the New York Post of May 19, 1980. The dispatch went on to state: “More than half of all adult Americans have had a lasting ‘born-again’ Christian religious experience, an upcoming Gallup Poll reports. The data . . . shows that 84 million adult Americans have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that they still consider relevant.” Some time before this a survey reported that nearly half of American Protestant teenagers “had a ‘born again’ experience.” The weekly Parade of July 6, 1980, said that all three United States presidential candidates at that time, Carter, Reagan and Anderson, professed to be “born again” Christians.
In general the opinion is that being “born again” is synonymous with a person’s making a “commitment” to serve God and Christ, which is the way prominent evangelists present the matter. This raises some questions: Jesus said that the road leading off to life was narrow and difficult and that few would be the ones finding it. (Matthew 7:13, 14) He also repeatedly stated that his followers were no part of the world. (John 15:19; 17:16) How can these words of his be harmonized with the claim that over half of the adult population in the U.S. have had a “born again” experience? Nor is that all. If half of the adult population of a country are “born again” Christians, why is it that there is so much lawlessness, so much crime, so much tax evasion, so much political corruption, so much sexual immorality, so much materialism, so much of the “me-first” attitude?

Jesus was in their midst. He is king of the kingdom and hence the kingdom was in their midst. A kingdom is a government, (or as you said:”a system of government”) made of of rulers. Since the primary ruler of that kingdom was in their midst, it could be said that the kingdom was there. It was represented. I fail to see your point.

[david]

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You do agree that their will be humans on the new earth don't you?

Until very recently, I believed Jehovah's Witnesses were about the only ones that did believe this. Yes, I believe it. But since the purpose of being born of spirit is so that those who 'enter the kingdom' can be spirit creatures in heaven, there is really no need for those who will reside on the earth to be born again. Yes, we are imperfect now. That will change. I'm not saying you can't have God's spirit. I'm saying what John 3:5 says.

[david]

Hi Kenrch

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David, 1 Cor. 6:9-11, Now anyone who can read sees that these scriptures are speaking of the 144k. But does that mean that those of the 2nd resurrection can be like those in 1Cor. 6:9-11. Of course NOT! They must change, and don't be deceived, we can't change ourselves. We must be born again. Do you really think that you can change your nature without the Holy Spirit. Only God can change the way you think. In order to receive the Holy Spirit to change your nature you must born again.

ya, that's what I thought was troubling you. You are right. We absolutely need God's help to change and transform ourselves over. But it is possible to have the holy spirit without being born again.

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Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Right, Jehovah, our heavenly Father gives holy spirit to those asking, those with the right heart. But asking for holy spirit and being born again aren't the same thing.
Being someone that actually understands that there are those who go to heaven to rule and those who are ruled over, you may have an easier time grasping the following than some:

God’s Purpose in Having Some “Born Again”
The testimony of God’s Word leaves us with no doubt that one of God’s outstanding qualities is justice. Also, righteousness is the very foundation of his throne. (Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalm 89:14) His being just and righteous, however, does not obligate him to bestow identical favors upon all of his intelligent creatures. For example, he created some beings as spirit creatures, angels, who are far superior to humans. Nor does he reward all of his faithful earthly creatures in the same way. Thus Jesus said regarding John the Baptizer that “the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.” (Matthew 11:11, The New English Bible) These are points we do well to bear in mind when we consider this subject of being “born again.”

God’s Purpose for the Earth and Man
To appreciate God’s purpose in having some humans “born again,” it is essential to understand the circumstances that caused God to resort to having some “born again.” Going back to our very first parents, we find that God gave them the mandate: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection . . . every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” (Genesis 1:28) As they proceeded to subdue the earth and to fill it with their own kind, the whole earth would eventually become a paradise populated with perfect humans, even as Adam and Eve were perfect.
However, our first parents lacked appreciation for all of God’s provisions for them and transgressed his law. So God ousted them from his family of sons and sentenced them to death. As a result, all of their offspring have been born sinners subject to death. (Genesis 3:19; Romans 5:12) Neither our first parents nor any of their offspring have been able to carry out God’s original mandate to the human family. Does this mean that God’s purposes regarding the earth and man will never be realized? By no means, for God’s Word assures us that his purposes never fail.—Isaiah 46:10, 11; 55:10, 11.
How, then, will God’s original purpose regarding the earth and man be carried out? By means of a Seed, even as God foretold in the garden of Eden and as he promised also to Abraham. That Seed the apostle Paul shows to be primarily Jesus Christ. —Genesis 3:15; 22:17, 18; Galatians 3:16, 29.

How God’s Original Purpose Will Be Realized
How could Jesus Christ cause God’s original purpose to be realized? First of all, by removing the condemnation resting upon the human family due to Adam’s rebellion. Jesus was able to do this because he was born as a perfect human, Jehovah God—not Mary’s husband Joseph—being his Father. Jesus actually accomplished this removal of condemnation by dying on the execution stake as a ransom sacrifice. Thereby he opened the way for Adam’s offspring to be restored to Jehovah’s approved family.—Matthew 28:20.
However, a dead Ransomer could not benefit the human race. Therefore, Jehovah God raised Jesus Christ on the third day, making him “alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Jehovah did this on the basis of what had happened at the Jordan when Jesus was baptized. There, by means of his holy spirit, God had brought forth Jesus as a spirit-begotten Son. John the Baptizer not only had seen God’s spirit descending upon Jesus in the form of a dove but also had heard God’s voice saying: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”—Matthew 3:16, 17; Hebrews 10:5-10.
Jesus thus became not only a spiritual Son of God but also the Messiah, the Christ or One anointed to be the king of God’s kingdom. Also, at the same time he was ordained to be high priest in behalf of dying mankind, in order to remove the disability of sin. (Hebrews 7:26) Further, the words of Isaiah 61:1, 2 now applied to him.: “The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me. . . .” Jesus had been spirit begotten, “born again.” As God’s spirit-anointed Son he continued faithful until death, in spite of all that Satan the Devil tried to do to cause Jesus to break his integrity. So God resurrected him from the dead.
Thereupon “God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name.” (Philippians 2:9-11) Shortly before he returned to his Father in the heavens, he told his disciples: “All authority [or, power] has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” (Matthew 28:18) Now he was fully equipped with the right to restore humankind, by virtue of his sacrificial death, and also with the power to do so, by virtue of his resurrection and ascension to God’s right hand in heaven. (Luke 22:69) Thus Jesus Christ is now in position to cause God’s original purpose regarding the earth and man to be realized. To him, therefore, apply all the Messianic prophecies.—See Psalm 72; Isaiah 9:6, 7; 11:1-10.

Why Others Are “Born Again”
Will Jesus Christ accomplish all these things by himself alone? No. Sharing with him in the fulfillment of those Messianic prophecies will be some who had been humans upon earth, just as he had been. But before they can share in Christ’s Kingdom government they, like him, must first be “born again” while on earth. Jehovah’s spirit operating upon them brings them forth as spiritual sons with the prospect of everlasting life in the heavens. As such they have a special intimate relationship with God, “a spirit adoption as sons, by which spirit [they] cry out: ‘Abba, Father!’” (Romans 8:15) Jesus repeatedly held out this hope to his apostles. (Luke 22:28-30; John 14:2, 3) Similarly, the apostles made mention of this hope.—Romans 8:17; 1 Corinthians 15:52, 53; 1 John 3:2.
How many will gain this heavenly standing? According to all the scriptures bearing on the subject those “born again” will be comparatively few. This is what we would expect, since this is a very special prize, a most privileged official position. Thus Jesus said regarding them: “Have no fear, LITTLE FLOCK, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32) Just how many will there be of these? The apostle John tells of seeing 144,000 spiritual Israelites sealed in their foreheads, also of 144,000 standing upon Mount Zion with the Lamb Jesus Christ. That we are to understand this number to be a literal one is apparent from the c
ontext that tells also of a “great crowd, which no man was able to number.”—Revelation 7:3, 4, 9; 14:1, 3; 20:4, 6.

david.

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