Born Again–What is it's purpose?

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,02:59)

Quote No No david, What I say does not matter. It is what scripture says the matters. Scripture does not say Adam was created perfect so I cannot say he was. And neither does scripture say he was created imperfect.  But no where do we have any hint that he was created imperfect by God.  There is nothing to indicate that God creates anything imperfectly. I realize that mankind is far from perfection now.  But what reason do we have to believe that something Jehovah makes wouldn't be perfect? Are you saying he made Adam imperfect on purpose? After he chose disobedience and sin he was certainly imperfect. But do we have any reason to believe he was imperfect before that? DEUTERONOMY 32:4 “The Rock, perfect is his activity . . . .” (Nick, if you can find a scripture that says Jehovah does anything imperfectly, then your belief may have some merit.  But you will find no such scritpure.) PSALM 104:24 “How many your works are, O Jehovah! All of them in wisdom you have made. The earth is full of your productions.” 1 TIMOTHY 4:4 “The reason for this is that every creation of God is fine, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,” GENESIS 1:31 “God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good.” This was the tragic start Adam gave the human race. Paradise, happiness, and everlasting life were forfeited, and in their place sin, suffering, and death were acquired through disobedience. “Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” “Death ruled as king from Adam down.” (Ro 5:12, 14) Nick, Jehovah is the standard by how we judge what is right and wrong, good and bad, perfect, and imperfect.  For you or I to say something is right or wrong, perfect or not, is meaningless. However Jehovah chose to make Adam, it was by all definitions perfect.

Hi david,
You do not seem to understand.

You cannot state something as scriptural unless scripture ACTUALLY SAYS what you allege. Otherwise it remains your premise and if you hold to it you have grasped presumption and not faith.

Scripture does not say a lot of things like “Michael is Jesus” but men have made such unfounded allegations and even dare to teach them as doctrine to others!

[david]

But I am the one asserting that that scripture says exactly what it says and no more.
Those who make up the kingdom must be born again.

My question to you Nick, is what is the kingdom? Who make it up? What purpose does it serve?

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,16:55)

Are you saying Adam wasn't created perfect Nick.  He had free will.  He chose to become sinful.  He chose to sin.  It was his choice.  At that point, he wasn't perfect.   ROMANS 5:12 “That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.” And we, have inherited that imperfection. WHY IS IT NECESSARY FOR ANY CHRISTIANS TO BE “BORN AGAIN”? God has purposed to associate a limited number of faithful humans with Jesus Christ in the heavenly Kingdom. Luke 12:32: “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.” Rev. 14:1-3: “I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount Zion [in heaven; see Hebrews 12:22-24], and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . And they are singing as if a new song . . . and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.” Humans cannot go to heaven with bodies of flesh and blood. 1 Cor. 15:50: “This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.” John 3:6: “What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.” (So, those who make up the kingdom (divinely instituted government with Christ and his associate rulers would have to be “born from the spirit,” to inherit the heavenly kingdom.) Only persons who have been “born again,” thus becoming God’s sons, can share in the heavenly Kingdom John 1:12, 13: “As many as did receive him [Jesus Christ], to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (“As many as did receive him” does not mean all humans who have put faith in Christ. Notice who is being referred to, as indicated by verse 11 [“his own people,” the Jews]. The same privilege has been extended to others of mankind, but only to a “little flock.”) Rom. 8:16, 17: “The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” 1 Pet. 1:3, 4: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.” What will they do in heaven? REVELATION 20:6: “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will RULE AS KINGS with him for the thousand years.” (Who will they rule over?  Kings have subjects.) 1 CORINTHIANS 6:2: “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?” MATTHEW 25:31 ““When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne.” MATTHEW 19:28 “Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Compare Luke 22:30) MATTHEW 20:21 “He said to her: “What do you want?” She said to him: “Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.”” REVELATION 20:4 “And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. . . .And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.” 2 TIMOTHY 2:12 “if we go on enduring, we shall also RULE TOGETHER AS KINGS; if we deny, he also will deny us;” REVELATION 1:6 “and he MADE US TO BE A KINGDOM, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.” If all those saved are kings, over whom do they rule?  A kingdom is a government run by a king.  A government has subjects.  A king is someone who rules over others.  Who are these others? A kingdom is never all the people.  It is a minority that rule for the wellfare of the subjects.  This is why it is called a “little flock,” those who are given the kingdom. LUKE 12:32 ““Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.” But they are not the only ones saved. JOHN 10:16 ““And I have OTHER SHEEP, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” In Revelation 14, it list the 144,000 who have been “bought from the earth.” (verse 3.)  They are called “firstfruits.” (verse 4.)  If there are firstfruits, then there are others to follow.  In Revelation 7, it also mentions the 144,000 that were “sealed.”  Then, “after these things,” after listing the tribes of spiritual Israel, the “Israel of God,” it mentions another group, a “great crowd, which no man was able to number.” (verse 9.)  These are the ones who are the subjects of the kingdom, the ones who are ruled over by those doing the ruling.  In chapter Revelation 5:9,10, we see those rulers again, singing that new song again.  And we are told: “and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to RULE AS KINGS OVER THE EARTH.”” (“over,” the same Greek word and grammatical structure occur at Rev 11:6, and there RS, KJ, Dy translate it as “over.”) God's original purpose for mankind and the earth which cannot be stopped by anyone is to have perfect humans worshipping him in paradise.  This would have been the result had Adam not chosen to sin.  This raised issues which had to be resolved. PSALM 72:8 “And he will have subjects from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of the earth.”  (Kings have subjects.  The Bible holds out a paradise hope for the majority of mankind.) 1 CORINTHIANS 4:8 “YOU men already have YOUR fill, do YOU? YOU are rich already, are YOU? YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings.” 2 TIMOTHY 2:12 “if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings; if we deny, he also will deny us;” REVELATION 3:21 “To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.” LUKE 22:28-29 ““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,” JAMES 2:5 “Listen, my beloved brothers. God chose the ones who are poor respecting the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he promised to those who love him, did he not?” Anyway, I just realized I haven't even read page two of this, so I should see what that has to say. david.

David,
Are you saying that their will be no humans on earth under the geovernment.
If they will be humans on earth are you going to be one of them in your present state? With your evil thoughts and sinful ways!
Now address the statement that I made. Everyone on the New Earth Will Be Born Again, Right or Wong?

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,03:50)

But I am the one asserting that that scripture says exactly what it says and no more. Those who make up the kingdom must be born again. My question to you Nick, is what is the kingdom?  Who make it up? What purpose does it serve?

Hoi david,
If Jesus urgently preached the kingdom and gave his life in the process would it be wise to try and figure out some way of joining in without obeying his commands?
Does reason have as much validity to you as the Word of God?
Is that any form of demonstrated obedience to Christ?

Why try to find a back door while the main entrance stands wide open?

Certainly some will have to be governed but who they are is not revealed and we are not told to try and climb over the fence and get into the kingdom some other way. In fact those who try are called by him “thieves and robbers”

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,22:01)

Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,03:50) But I am the one asserting that that scripture says exactly what it says and no more. Those who make up the kingdom must be born again. My question to you Nick, is what is the kingdom?  Who make it up? What purpose does it serve? Hoi david, If Jesus urgently preached the kingdom and gave his life in the process would it be wise to try and figure out some way of joining in without obeying his commands? Does reason have as much validity to you as the Word of God? Is that any form of demonstrated obedience to Christ? Why try to find a back door while the main entrance stands wide open? Certainly some will have to be governed but who they are is not revealed and we are not told to try and climb over the fence and get into the kingdom some other way. In fact those who try are called by him “thieves and robbers”

Nick,

Their will be the 144k in heaven but the second resurrection are for those who will be on the new earth. I don't know about you but I would never have made it to the new earth without being new again, completely change on the inside. I'm will be proud to be one of the people of the saints (Dan. 7:27).

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,03:14)

Quote You must be born again to enter the kngdom according to scripture. You say you can enter the kingdom but not as a leader without being born again? Once again you are on your own and outside of the teaching of the Word of God, as is your way. Nick, being on my own I am used to.  If you like being in the majority, you should ask yourself what that means. (Mat 13:11) Nick, the fact that you can only point and say I am wrong means something.   Quote You must be born again to enter the kngdom according to scripture. You say you can enter the kingdom but not as a leader without being born again? Nick, I completely agree with what that scripture says.  The difference is, I also take note of all the other scriptures that speak of the kingdom, God's government.  And I take note of the scriptures that speak of the “holy ones” being rulers in the kingdom.   Then, I realize that it wasn't until Christ that that new covenant for a kingdom was made.  I realize that the early Bible writers and faithful men of old did not hope to make up part of this government.  I notice the scriptures which speak of “new heavens AND and new earth.”  (Isaiah, 2 peter, Revelation.)   And I realize that if Jehovah sets up a governmental arrangement made up of those who become judges, kings and priests, that it probably has a purpse: To judge, and rule over others. Nick, when understanding scripture, staring at one scriputre and forming a complete understanding of God's purposes for mankind isn't the best way to go about it.  Take into account related scriptures that speak about similar things.  And try not to ignore scriptures that speak of the same things to suit your beliefs. I have much more to say about this, but am waiting for a responce by you about what I have posted. david.

Hi david,
I understand that if someone says you are wrong then that is to you a compliment, indicating persecution, and further evidence for you that you and your teachers are right.

That new covenant was in the blood of Christ[1Cor 10.16f]. The remembrance of the breaking of his body and the spilling of that blood is celebrated by those who have partaken in his body on earth and to become part of that body you must be reborn by water and the spirit.

[david]

Quote

Are you saying that their will be no humans on earth under the geovernment. If they will be humans on earth are you going to be one of them in your present state? With your evil thoughts and sinful ways! Now address the statement that I made. Everyone on the New Earth Will Be Born Again, Right or Wong?

Nick, everyone who makes up the kingdom NEEDS to be born again.

1 Cor. 15:50: “This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”
John 3:6: “What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.”

Those who make up the kingdom will also be PRIESTS, as well as kings and judges.
Mankind’s Return to Perfection on Earth. According to the prayer, “Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth,” this planet is due to experience the full force and effect of the execution of God’s purposes. (Mt 6:10) The wicked system under the control of Satan will be destroyed. All faults and defects will be removed from survivors who continue obediently to demonstrate faith, so that what remains meets God’s standards of excellence, completeness, and soundness. That this will include perfection of earthly conditions and of human creatures is evident from Revelation 5:9, 10. There it is stated that persons ‘bought for God’ (compare Re 14:1, 3) become “a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” Under the Law covenant not only did the priests have the duty to represent persons before God in the offering of sacrifices but they also were charged with guarding the physical health of the nation, officiating in the cleansing of those who were defiled, and judging when healing had taken place in cases of leprosy. (Le 13-15) More than this, the priesthood was responsible to aid in the mental and spiritual uplift and health of the people. (De 17:8-13; Mal 2:7) Since the Law had “a shadow of the good things to come,” it is to be expected that the heavenly priesthood under Christ Jesus functioning during his Thousand Year Reign (Re 20:4-6) will perform similar work.—Heb 10:1.

Can a person who is not “born again” be saved?
Rev. 7:9, 10, 17: “After these things [after the apostle John heard the number of those who would be “born again,” those who would make up spiritual Israel and would be with Christ in heaven; compare Romans 2:28, 29 and Galatians 3:26-29] I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ‘Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.’ . . . ‘The Lamb [Jesus Christ], who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life.’”
After listing many pre-Christian persons of faith, Hebrews 11:39, 40 says: “All these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, as God foresaw something better for us, in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.” (Who are here meant by “us”? Hebrews 3:1 shows that they are “partakers of the heavenly calling.” The pre-Christian persons who had faith, then, must have a hope for perfect life somewhere other than in heaven.)
Ps. 37:29: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”
Rev. 21:3, 4: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Is it possible for a person to have God’s spirit and yet not be “born again”?

Regarding John the baptizer, Jehovah’s angel said: “He will be filled with holy spirit right from his mother’s womb.” (Luke 1:15) And Jesus later said: “Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is [Why? Because John will not be in the heavens and so there was no need for him to be “born again”]. But from the days of John the Baptist until now [when Jesus stated this] the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press.”—Matt. 11:11, 12.
The spirit of Jehovah was “operative” upon David and “spoke” by him (1 Sam. 16:13; 2 Sam. 23:2), but nowhere does the Bible say that he was “born again.” There was no need for him to be “born again,” because, as Acts 2:34 says: “David did not ascend to the heavens.”
It was not until the new covenant….
LUKE 22:28-29
““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,” (Compare Heb 8:6,13; Jer 31:31-34)
Jesus made “a covenant . . . for a kingdom” with this group. In effect, Jesus contracted with this “little flock” for them to rule with him in heaven as the secondary part of the seed of Abraham.
LUKE 12:32
““Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.”
The new covenant was to be inaugurated with the blood of the appropriate sacrifice and with a new nation, spiritual Israel. (Hebrews 8:5, 6; 9:15-22) When exactly did this new covenant take effect? An important feature of the Law was the high priest’s going into the Most Holy once each year. That pictured Jesus’ resurrection to the heavens. There, in the presence of God, he, as Mediator of the new covenant, could present the value of his ransom sacrifice. (Hebrews 9:23, 24) This opened the way for a new covenant to be inaugurated in fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34. The new covenant went into effect when Jehovah ACTED upon his acceptance of the ransom sacrifice. He poured out his holy spirit upon the faithful disciples of Jesus to bring into existence a new nation, spiritual Israel, composed of those in the covenant for the Kingdom. (Luke 22:29; Acts 2:1-4)
This covenant between Christ and his associate kings remains forever operative.—Revelation 22:5.

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,22:16)

Quote Are you saying that their will be no humans on earth under the geovernment. If they will be humans on earth are you going to be one of them in your present state?  With your evil thoughts and sinful ways! Now address the statement that I made.  Everyone on the New Earth Will Be Born Again, Right or Wong? Nick, everyone who makes up the kingdom NEEDS to be born again. 1 Cor. 15:50: “This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.” John 3:6: “What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.” Those who make up the kingdom will also be PRIESTS, as well as kings and judges. Mankind’s Return to Perfection on Earth. According to the prayer, “Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth,” this planet is due to experience the full force and effect of the execution of God’s purposes. (Mt 6:10) The wicked system under the control of Satan will be destroyed. All faults and defects will be removed from survivors who continue obediently to demonstrate faith, so that what remains meets God’s standards of excellence, completeness, and soundness. That this will include perfection of earthly conditions and of human creatures is evident from Revelation 5:9, 10. There it is stated that persons ‘bought for God’ (compare Re 14:1, 3) become “a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” Under the Law covenant not only did the priests have the duty to represent persons before God in the offering of sacrifices but they also were charged with guarding the physical health of the nation, officiating in the cleansing of those who were defiled, and judging when healing had taken place in cases of leprosy. (Le 13-15) More than this, the priesthood was responsible to aid in the mental and spiritual uplift and health of the people. (De 17:8-13; Mal 2:7) Since the Law had “a shadow of the good things to come,” it is to be expected that the heavenly priesthood under Christ Jesus functioning during his Thousand Year Reign (Re 20:4-6) will perform similar work.—Heb 10:1. Can a person who is not “born again” be saved? Rev. 7:9, 10, 17: “After these things [after the apostle John heard the number of those who would be “born again,” those who would make up spiritual Israel and would be with Christ in heaven; compare Romans 2:28, 29 and Galatians 3:26-29] I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ‘Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.’ . . . ‘The Lamb [Jesus Christ], who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life.’” After listing many pre-Christian persons of faith, Hebrews 11:39, 40 says: “All these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, as God foresaw something better for us, in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.” (Who are here meant by “us”? Hebrews 3:1 shows that they are “partakers of the heavenly calling.” The pre-Christian persons who had faith, then, must have a hope for perfect life somewhere other than in heaven.) Ps. 37:29: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” Rev. 21:3, 4: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” Is it possible for a person to have God’s spirit and yet not be “born again”? Regarding John the baptizer, Jehovah’s angel said: “He will be filled with holy spirit right from his mother’s womb.” (Luke 1:15) And Jesus later said: “Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is [Why? Because John will not be in the heavens and so there was no need for him to be “born again”]. But from the days of John the Baptist until now [when Jesus stated this] the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press.”—Matt. 11:11, 12. The spirit of Jehovah was “operative” upon David and “spoke” by him (1 Sam. 16:13; 2 Sam. 23:2), but nowhere does the Bible say that he was “born again.” There was no need for him to be “born again,” because, as Acts 2:34 says: “David did not ascend to the heavens.” It was not until the new covenant…. LUKE 22:28-29 ““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,” (Compare Heb 8:6,13; Jer 31:31-34) Jesus made “a covenant . . . for a kingdom” with this group.   In effect, Jesus contracted with this “little flock” for them to rule with him in heaven as the secondary part of the seed of Abraham. LUKE 12:32 ““Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.” The new covenant was to be inaugurated with the blood of the appropriate sacrifice and with a new nation, spiritual Israel. (Hebrews 8:5, 6; 9:15-22) When exactly did this new covenant take effect?  An important feature of the Law was the high priest’s going into the Most Holy once each year. That pictured Jesus’ resurrection to the heavens. There, in the presence of God, he, as Mediator of the new covenant, could present the value of his ransom sacrifice. (Hebrews 9:23, 24) This opened the way for a new covenant to be inaugurated in fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34.  The new covenant went into effect when Jehovah ACTED upon his acceptance of the ransom sacrifice. He poured out his holy spirit upon the faithful disciples of Jesus to bring into existence a new nation, spiritual Israel, composed of those in the covenant for the Kingdom. (Luke 22:29; Acts 2:1-4) This covenant between Christ and his associate kings remains forever operative.—Revelation 22:5.

David,

Right or wrong?

[david]

Quote

I understand that if someone says you are wrong then that is to you a compliment, indicating persecution, and further evidence for you that you and your teachers are right.

No, not persecution. But, you keep pointing out that I (we) are different (as we are) from the majority of those who call themselves Christians. If most people agree with you….think about that.

david.

[david]

Quote

Right or wrong?

you'll have to actually read my post for the answer Nick.

[kenrch]

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,22:19)

Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,22:16) Quote Are you saying that their will be no humans on earth under the geovernment. If they will be humans on earth are you going to be one of them in your present state?  With your evil thoughts and sinful ways! Now address the statement that I made.  Everyone on the New Earth Will Be Born Again, Right or Wong? Nick, everyone who makes up the kingdom NEEDS to be born again. 1 Cor. 15:50: “This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.” John 3:6: “What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.” Those who make up the kingdom will also be PRIESTS, as well as kings and judges. Mankind’s Return to Perfection on Earth. According to the prayer, “Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth,” this planet is due to experience the full force and effect of the execution of God’s purposes. (Mt 6:10) The wicked system under the control of Satan will be destroyed. All faults and defects will be removed from survivors who continue obediently to demonstrate faith, so that what remains meets God’s standards of excellence, completeness, and soundness. That this will include perfection of earthly conditions and of human creatures is evident from Revelation 5:9, 10. There it is stated that persons ‘bought for God’ (compare Re 14:1, 3) become “a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” Under the Law covenant not only did the priests have the duty to represent persons before God in the offering of sacrifices but they also were charged with guarding the physical health of the nation, officiating in the cleansing of those who were defiled, and judging when healing had taken place in cases of leprosy. (Le 13-15) More than this, the priesthood was responsible to aid in the mental and spiritual uplift and health of the people. (De 17:8-13; Mal 2:7) Since the Law had “a shadow of the good things to come,” it is to be expected that the heavenly priesthood under Christ Jesus functioning during his Thousand Year Reign (Re 20:4-6) will perform similar work.—Heb 10:1. Can a person who is not “born again” be saved? Rev. 7:9, 10, 17: “After these things [after the apostle John heard the number of those who would be “born again,” those who would make up spiritual Israel and would be with Christ in heaven; compare Romans 2:28, 29 and Galatians 3:26-29] I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ‘Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.’ . . . ‘The Lamb [Jesus Christ], who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life.’” After listing many pre-Christian persons of faith, Hebrews 11:39, 40 says: “All these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, as God foresaw something better for us, in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.” (Who are here meant by “us”? Hebrews 3:1 shows that they are “partakers of the heavenly calling.” The pre-Christian persons who had faith, then, must have a hope for perfect life somewhere other than in heaven.) Ps. 37:29: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” Rev. 21:3, 4: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” Is it possible for a person to have God’s spirit and yet not be “born again”? Regarding John the baptizer, Jehovah’s angel said: “He will be filled with holy spirit right from his mother’s womb.” (Luke 1:15) And Jesus later said: “Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is [Why? Because John will not be in the heavens and so there was no need for him to be “born again”]. But from the days of John the Baptist until now [when Jesus stated this] the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press.”—Matt. 11:11, 12. The spirit of Jehovah was “operative” upon David and “spoke” by him (1 Sam. 16:13; 2 Sam. 23:2), but nowhere does the Bible say that he was “born again.” There was no need for him to be “born again,” because, as Acts 2:34 says: “David did not ascend to the heavens.” It was not until the new covenant…. LUKE 22:28-29 ““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,” (Compare Heb 8:6,13; Jer 31:31-34) Jesus made “a covenant . . . for a kingdom” with this group.   In effect, Jesus contracted with this “little flock” for them to rule with him in heaven as the secondary part of the seed of Abraham. LUKE 12:32 ““Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.” The new covenant was to be inaugurated with the blood of the appropriate sacrifice and with a new nation, spiritual Israel. (Hebrews 8:5, 6; 9:15-22) When exactly did this new covenant take effect?  An important feature of the Law was the high priest’s going into the Most Holy once each year. That pictured Jesus’ resurrection to the heavens. There, in the presence of God, he, as Mediator of the new covenant, could present the value of his ransom sacrifice. (Hebrews 9:23, 24) This opened the way for a new covenant to be inaugurated in fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34.  The new covenant went into effect when Jehovah ACTED upon his acceptance of the ransom sacrifice. He poured out his holy spirit upon the faithful disciples of Jesus to bring into existence a new nation, spiritual Israel, composed of those in the covenant for the Kingdom. (Luke 22:29; Acts 2:1-4) This covenant between Christ and his associate kings remains forever operative.—Revelation 22:5. David, Right or wrong?

David,

I know about the Kingdom (rulership) I'm talking about those in the second reurrection who will be flesh on the new earth.
Do they (us) need to be born again , Right or wrong?

[kenrch]

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,22:25)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,22:19) Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,22:16) Quote Are you saying that their will be no humans on earth under the geovernment. If they will be humans on earth are you going to be one of them in your present state?  With your evil thoughts and sinful ways! Now address the statement that I made.  Everyone on the New Earth Will Be Born Again, Right or Wong? Nick, everyone who makes up the kingdom NEEDS to be born again. 1 Cor. 15:50: “This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.” John 3:6: “What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.” Those who make up the kingdom will also be PRIESTS, as well as kings and judges. Mankind’s Return to Perfection on Earth. According to the prayer, “Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth,” this planet is due to experience the full force and effect of the execution of God’s purposes. (Mt 6:10) The wicked system under the control of Satan will be destroyed. All faults and defects will be removed from survivors who continue obediently to demonstrate faith, so that what remains meets God’s standards of excellence, completeness, and soundness. That this will include perfection of earthly conditions and of human creatures is evident from Revelation 5:9, 10. There it is stated that persons ‘bought for God’ (compare Re 14:1, 3) become “a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” Under the Law covenant not only did the priests have the duty to represent persons before God in the offering of sacrifices but they also were charged with guarding the physical health of the nation, officiating in the cleansing of those who were defiled, and judging when healing had taken place in cases of leprosy. (Le 13-15) More than this, the priesthood was responsible to aid in the mental and spiritual uplift and health of the people. (De 17:8-13; Mal 2:7) Since the Law had “a shadow of the good things to come,” it is to be expected that the heavenly priesthood under Christ Jesus functioning during his Thousand Year Reign (Re 20:4-6) will perform similar work.—Heb 10:1. Can a person who is not “born again” be saved? Rev. 7:9, 10, 17: “After these things [after the apostle John heard the number of those who would be “born again,” those who would make up spiritual Israel and would be with Christ in heaven; compare Romans 2:28, 29 and Galatians 3:26-29] I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ‘Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.’ . . . ‘The Lamb [Jesus Christ], who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life.’” After listing many pre-Christian persons of faith, Hebrews 11:39, 40 says: “All these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, as God foresaw something better for us, in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.” (Who are here meant by “us”? Hebrews 3:1 shows that they are “partakers of the heavenly calling.” The pre-Christian persons who had faith, then, must have a hope for perfect life somewhere other than in heaven.) Ps. 37:29: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” Rev. 21:3, 4: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” Is it possible for a person to have God’s spirit and yet not be “born again”? Regarding John the baptizer, Jehovah’s angel said: “He will be filled with holy spirit right from his mother’s womb.” (Luke 1:15) And Jesus later said: “Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is [Why? Because John will not be in the heavens and so there was no need for him to be “born again”]. But from the days of John the Baptist until now [when Jesus stated this] the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press.”—Matt. 11:11, 12. The spirit of Jehovah was “operative” upon David and “spoke” by him (1 Sam. 16:13; 2 Sam. 23:2), but nowhere does the Bible say that he was “born again.” There was no need for him to be “born again,” because, as Acts 2:34 says: “David did not ascend to the heavens.” It was not until the new covenant…. LUKE 22:28-29 ““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,” (Compare Heb 8:6,13; Jer 31:31-34) Jesus made “a covenant . . . for a kingdom” with this group.   In effect, Jesus contracted with this “little flock” for them to rule with him in heaven as the secondary part of the seed of Abraham. LUKE 12:32 ““Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.” The new covenant was to be inaugurated with the blood of the appropriate sacrifice and with a new nation, spiritual Israel. (Hebrews 8:5, 6; 9:15-22) When exactly did this new covenant take effect?  An important feature of the Law was the high priest’s going into the Most Holy once each year. That pictured Jesus’ resurrection to the heavens. There, in the presence of God, he, as Mediator of the new covenant, could present the value of his ransom sacrifice. (Hebrews 9:23, 24) This opened the way for a new covenant to be inaugurated in fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34.  The new covenant went into effect when Jehovah ACTED upon his acceptance of the ransom sacrifice. He poured out his holy spirit upon the faithful disciples of Jesus to bring into existence a new nation, spiritual Israel, composed of those in the covenant for the Kingdom. (Luke 22:29; Acts 2:1-4) This covenant between Christ and his associate kings remains forever operative.—Revelation 22:5. David, Right or wrong? David, I know about the Kingdom (rulership) I'm talking about those in the second reurrection who will be flesh on the new earth. Do they (us) need to be born again , Right or wrong?

David,

If I ask you for the time, don't tell me how the watch is made. Tell me the time. Right or Wrong ?

[kenrch]

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,22:28)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,22:25) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,22:19) Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,22:16) Quote Are you saying that their will be no humans on earth under the geovernment. If they will be humans on earth are you going to be one of them in your present state?  With your evil thoughts and sinful ways! Now address the statement that I made.  Everyone on the New Earth Will Be Born Again, Right or Wong? Nick, everyone who makes up the kingdom NEEDS to be born again. 1 Cor. 15:50: “This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.” John 3:6: “What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.” Those who make up the kingdom will also be PRIESTS, as well as kings and judges. Mankind’s Return to Perfection on Earth. According to the prayer, “Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth,” this planet is due to experience the full force and effect of the execution of God’s purposes. (Mt 6:10) The wicked system under the control of Satan will be destroyed. All faults and defects will be removed from survivors who continue obediently to demonstrate faith, so that what remains meets God’s standards of excellence, completeness, and soundness. That this will include perfection of earthly conditions and of human creatures is evident from Revelation 5:9, 10. There it is stated that persons ‘bought for God’ (compare Re 14:1, 3) become “a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” Under the Law covenant not only did the priests have the duty to represent persons before God in the offering of sacrifices but they also were charged with guarding the physical health of the nation, officiating in the cleansing of those who were defiled, and judging when healing had taken place in cases of leprosy. (Le 13-15) More than this, the priesthood was responsible to aid in the mental and spiritual uplift and health of the people. (De 17:8-13; Mal 2:7) Since the Law had “a shadow of the good things to come,” it is to be expected that the heavenly priesthood under Christ Jesus functioning during his Thousand Year Reign (Re 20:4-6) will perform similar work.—Heb 10:1. Can a person who is not “born again” be saved? Rev. 7:9, 10, 17: “After these things [after the apostle John heard the number of those who would be “born again,” those who would make up spiritual Israel and would be with Christ in heaven; compare Romans 2:28, 29 and Galatians 3:26-29] I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ‘Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.’ . . . ‘The Lamb [Jesus Christ], who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life.’” After listing many pre-Christian persons of faith, Hebrews 11:39, 40 says: “All these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, as God foresaw something better for us, in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.” (Who are here meant by “us”? Hebrews 3:1 shows that they are “partakers of the heavenly calling.” The pre-Christian persons who had faith, then, must have a hope for perfect life somewhere other than in heaven.) Ps. 37:29: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” Rev. 21:3, 4: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” Is it possible for a person to have God’s spirit and yet not be “born again”? Regarding John the baptizer, Jehovah’s angel said: “He will be filled with holy spirit right from his mother’s womb.” (Luke 1:15) And Jesus later said: “Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is [Why? Because John will not be in the heavens and so there was no need for him to be “born again”]. But from the days of John the Baptist until now [when Jesus stated this] the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press.”—Matt. 11:11, 12. The spirit of Jehovah was “operative” upon David and “spoke” by him (1 Sam. 16:13; 2 Sam. 23:2), but nowhere does the Bible say that he was “born again.” There was no need for him to be “born again,” because, as Acts 2:34 says: “David did not ascend to the heavens.” It was not until the new covenant…. LUKE 22:28-29 ““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,” (Compare Heb 8:6,13; Jer 31:31-34) Jesus made “a covenant . . . for a kingdom” with this group.   In effect, Jesus contracted with this “little flock” for them to rule with him in heaven as the secondary part of the seed of Abraham. LUKE 12:32 ““Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.” The new covenant was to be inaugurated with the blood of the appropriate sacrifice and with a new nation, spiritual Israel. (Hebrews 8:5, 6; 9:15-22) When exactly did this new covenant take effect?  An important feature of the Law was the high priest’s going into the Most Holy once each year. That pictured Jesus’ resurrection to the heavens. There, in the presence of God, he, as Mediator of the new covenant, could present the value of his ransom sacrifice. (Hebrews 9:23, 24) This opened the way for a new covenant to be inaugurated in fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34.  The new covenant went into effect when Jehovah ACTED upon his acceptance of the ransom sacrifice. He poured out his holy spirit upon the faithful disciples of Jesus to bring into existence a new nation, spiritual Israel, composed of those in the covenant for the Kingdom. (Luke 22:29; Acts 2:1-4) This covenant between Christ and his associate kings remains forever operative.—Revelation 22:5. David, Right or wrong? David, I know about the Kingdom (rulership) I'm talking about those in the second reurrection who will be flesh on the new earth. Do they (us) need to be born again , Right or wrong? David, If I ask you for the time, don't tell me how the watch is made.  Tell me the time.  Right or Wrong ?

David,

Are you going to be the same David on the new earth?

The old kenrch couldn't be on the new earth. He had to start new (born again) to be on the new earth.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,04:21)

Quote I understand that if someone says you are wrong then that is to you a compliment, indicating persecution, and further evidence for you that you and your teachers are right. No, not persecution.  But, you keep pointing out that I (we) are different (as we are) from the majority of those who call themselves Christians.  If most people agree with you….think about that. david.

Now david,
How many million JW's agree with you?

You have often pointed out I have very few.

Be consistent. Ask yourself the same question using the same logic and answer me…what does that seem to say?

[kenrch]

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,22:37)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,22:28) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,22:25) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,22:19) Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,22:16) Quote Are you saying that their will be no humans on earth under the geovernment. If they will be humans on earth are you going to be one of them in your present state?  With your evil thoughts and sinful ways! Now address the statement that I made.  Everyone on the New Earth Will Be Born Again, Right or Wong? Nick, everyone who makes up the kingdom NEEDS to be born again. 1 Cor. 15:50: “This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.” John 3:6: “What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.” Those who make up the kingdom will also be PRIESTS, as well as kings and judges. Mankind’s Return to Perfection on Earth. According to the prayer, “Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth,” this planet is due to experience the full force and effect of the execution of God’s purposes. (Mt 6:10) The wicked system under the control of Satan will be destroyed. All faults and defects will be removed from survivors who continue obediently to demonstrate faith, so that what remains meets God’s standards of excellence, completeness, and soundness. That this will include perfection of earthly conditions and of human creatures is evident from Revelation 5:9, 10. There it is stated that persons ‘bought for God’ (compare Re 14:1, 3) become “a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” Under the Law covenant not only did the priests have the duty to represent persons before God in the offering of sacrifices but they also were charged with guarding the physical health of the nation, officiating in the cleansing of those who were defiled, and judging when healing had taken place in cases of leprosy. (Le 13-15) More than this, the priesthood was responsible to aid in the mental and spiritual uplift and health of the people. (De 17:8-13; Mal 2:7) Since the Law had “a shadow of the good things to come,” it is to be expected that the heavenly priesthood under Christ Jesus functioning during his Thousand Year Reign (Re 20:4-6) will perform similar work.—Heb 10:1. Can a person who is not “born again” be saved? Rev. 7:9, 10, 17: “After these things [after the apostle John heard the number of those who would be “born again,” those who would make up spiritual Israel and would be with Christ in heaven; compare Romans 2:28, 29 and Galatians 3:26-29] I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ‘Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.’ . . . ‘The Lamb [Jesus Christ], who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life.’” After listing many pre-Christian persons of faith, Hebrews 11:39, 40 says: “All these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, as God foresaw something better for us, in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.” (Who are here meant by “us”? Hebrews 3:1 shows that they are “partakers of the heavenly calling.” The pre-Christian persons who had faith, then, must have a hope for perfect life somewhere other than in heaven.) Ps. 37:29: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” Rev. 21:3, 4: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” Is it possible for a person to have God’s spirit and yet not be “born again”? Regarding John the baptizer, Jehovah’s angel said: “He will be filled with holy spirit right from his mother’s womb.” (Luke 1:15) And Jesus later said: “Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is [Why? Because John will not be in the heavens and so there was no need for him to be “born again”]. But from the days of John the Baptist until now [when Jesus stated this] the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press.”—Matt. 11:11, 12. The spirit of Jehovah was “operative” upon David and “spoke” by him (1 Sam. 16:13; 2 Sam. 23:2), but nowhere does the Bible say that he was “born again.” There was no need for him to be “born again,” because, as Acts 2:34 says: “David did not ascend to the heavens.” It was not until the new covenant…. LUKE 22:28-29 ““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,” (Compare Heb 8:6,13; Jer 31:31-34) Jesus made “a covenant . . . for a kingdom” with this group.   In effect, Jesus contracted with this “little flock” for them to rule with him in heaven as the secondary part of the seed of Abraham. LUKE 12:32 ““Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.” The new covenant was to be inaugurated with the blood of the appropriate sacrifice and with a new nation, spiritual Israel. (Hebrews 8:5, 6; 9:15-22) When exactly did this new covenant take effect?  An important feature of the Law was the high priest’s going into the Most Holy once each year. That pictured Jesus’ resurrection to the heavens. There, in the presence of God, he, as Mediator of the new covenant, could present the value of his ransom sacrifice. (Hebrews 9:23, 24) This opened the way for a new covenant to be inaugurated in fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34.  The new covenant went into effect when Jehovah ACTED upon his acceptance of the ransom sacrifice. He poured out his holy spirit upon the faithful disciples of Jesus to bring into existence a new nation, spiritual Israel, composed of those in the covenant for the Kingdom. (Luke 22:29; Acts 2:1-4) This covenant between Christ and his associate kings remains forever operative.—Revelation 22:5. David, Right or wrong? David, I know about the Kingdom (rulership) I'm talking about those in the second reurrection who will be flesh on the new earth. Do they (us) need to be born again , Right or wrong? David, If I ask you for the time, don't tell me how the watch is made.  Tell me the time.  Right or Wrong ? David, Are you going to be the same David on the new earth? The old kenrch couldn't be on the new earth.  He had to start new (born again) to be on the new earth.

David,

The JWs have a lot of truth but they are no different than any other organization some truth but not all the truth. What they are missing is really important you cannot be under the government of God with out being changed or born again. Do you think that God will let you on His new clean earth the way you are now with sinful nature? Jesus is knocking on your heart. Won't you let Him in and change your life.

[NickHassan]

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,04:11)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,22:01) Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,03:50) But I am the one asserting that that scripture says exactly what it says and no more. Those who make up the kingdom must be born again. My question to you Nick, is what is the kingdom?  Who make it up? What purpose does it serve? Hoi david, If Jesus urgently preached the kingdom and gave his life in the process would it be wise to try and figure out some way of joining in without obeying his commands? Does reason have as much validity to you as the Word of God? Is that any form of demonstrated obedience to Christ? Why try to find a back door while the main entrance stands wide open? Certainly some will have to be governed but who they are is not revealed and we are not told to try and climb over the fence and get into the kingdom some other way. In fact those who try are called by him “thieves and robbers” Nick, Their will be the 144k in heaven but the second resurrection are for those who will be on the new earth.  I don't know about you but I would never have made it to the new earth without being new again, completely change on the inside.  I'm will be proud to be one of the people of the saints (Dan. 7:27).

Hi kenrch
In Heaven?

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,23:11)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,04:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,22:01) Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,03:50) But I am the one asserting that that scripture says exactly what it says and no more. Those who make up the kingdom must be born again. My question to you Nick, is what is the kingdom?  Who make it up? What purpose does it serve? Hoi david, If Jesus urgently preached the kingdom and gave his life in the process would it be wise to try and figure out some way of joining in without obeying his commands? Does reason have as much validity to you as the Word of God? Is that any form of demonstrated obedience to Christ? Why try to find a back door while the main entrance stands wide open? Certainly some will have to be governed but who they are is not revealed and we are not told to try and climb over the fence and get into the kingdom some other way. In fact those who try are called by him “thieves and robbers” Nick, Their will be the 144k in heaven but the second resurrection are for those who will be on the new earth.  I don't know about you but I would never have made it to the new earth without being new again, completely change on the inside.  I'm will be proud to be one of the people of the saints (Dan. 7:27). Hi kenrch In Heaven?

Nick,

I don't think I'm one of the 144k. The 144 are the elect which were chosen long before the earth.

[NickHassan]

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,04:11)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,22:01) Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,03:50) But I am the one asserting that that scripture says exactly what it says and no more. Those who make up the kingdom must be born again. My question to you Nick, is what is the kingdom?  Who make it up? What purpose does it serve? Hoi david, If Jesus urgently preached the kingdom and gave his life in the process would it be wise to try and figure out some way of joining in without obeying his commands? Does reason have as much validity to you as the Word of God? Is that any form of demonstrated obedience to Christ? Why try to find a back door while the main entrance stands wide open? Certainly some will have to be governed but who they are is not revealed and we are not told to try and climb over the fence and get into the kingdom some other way. In fact those who try are called by him “thieves and robbers” Nick, Their will be the 144k in heaven but the second resurrection are for those who will be on the new earth.  I don't know about you but I would never have made it to the new earth without being new again, completely change on the inside.  I'm will be proud to be one of the people of the saints (Dan. 7:27).

Hi kenrch
In Heaven?

[NickHassan]

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,05:21)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,23:11) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 13 2005,04:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,22:01) Quote (david @ Dec. 13 2005,03:50) But I am the one asserting that that scripture says exactly what it says and no more. Those who make up the kingdom must be born again. My question to you Nick, is what is the kingdom?  Who make it up? What purpose does it serve? Hoi david, If Jesus urgently preached the kingdom and gave his life in the process would it be wise to try and figure out some way of joining in without obeying his commands? Does reason have as much validity to you as the Word of God? Is that any form of demonstrated obedience to Christ? Why try to find a back door while the main entrance stands wide open? Certainly some will have to be governed but who they are is not revealed and we are not told to try and climb over the fence and get into the kingdom some other way. In fact those who try are called by him “thieves and robbers” Nick, Their will be the 144k in heaven but the second resurrection are for those who will be on the new earth.  I don't know about you but I would never have made it to the new earth without being new again, completely change on the inside.  I'm will be proud to be one of the people of the saints (Dan. 7:27). Hi kenrch In Heaven? Nick, I don't think I'm one of the 144k.  The 144 are the elect which were chosen long before the earth.

Hi kenrch,
The 144,000 are “bondservants of our God”. Are they the saved or are they a special group called the first fruits?

The predestination thing is interesting. I think God knows the total called chosen and equipped without needing to take away the free will of individual men to choose life. Dunno tho.

1Peter 1.1f
“..chosen, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood”
Like all of these letters they are only written to the saved so every individual he was writing to was in this group, and all these words applied to them. But did they not have that choice to be there? I believe so. They proved they were among the chosen by responding.

[david]

Quote

How many million JW's agree with you? You have often pointed out I have very few. Be consistent. Ask yourself the same question using the same logic and answer me…what does that seem to say?

It's millions verses billions Nick. Every tom, dick and Harry believes they are born again and going to heaven. They don't question why or for what purpose and most don't care.
And it is you who repeatedly say I am in the minority with my “bizarre beliefs.”

Quote

Quote Right or wrong? you'll have to actually read my post for the answer Nick.

Sorry Kenrch. I thought this was Nick who was asking me this question. And this question was posted rather quickly after I made my post. Nick has gained a reputation for answering posts rather quickly, as if without reading them. Sorry for the mistake Kenrch.

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I know about the Kingdom (rulership) I'm talking about those in the second reurrection who will be flesh on the new earth. Do they (us) need to be born again , Right or wrong?

Kenrch, by inserting the word “us” there, it seems as though you don't believe you will be one of those with rulership. Could you please explain to Nick how someone can have the holy spirit and be given everlasting life, but yet not be a part of that governement.

In answer to your question Kenrch:
JOHN 3:5
“Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

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If I ask you for the time, don't tell me how the watch is made. Tell me the time. Right or Wrong ?

I'm sorry. Jesus often answered questions with question. Questions are great learning tools. They make you think. If I tell you something, you may reject it. But if your own mind arrives on the answer, it is much harder to reject.

JOHN 3:5
“Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

What does this scripture say?

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