Born Again&#8211;What is it&#39;s purpose?

Participant

I wanted to put this in the “kingdom of God” thread, but it will be easier to find if it has it's own thread.

First, I'd like to say that many preachers have lulled the public into a false sense of security with their indiscriminate use of “born again” and “once saved, always saved” slogans and theology. Millions of people from nearly every religion and sect of Christendom have been led to believe that they are “born again” and “saved.” Clearly, a lot of people that think they are born again, are not. Clearly, believing you are born again, does not make it so.
It must be stated that our heart and mind can mislead us, especially if influenced by strong emotion. (Jeremiah 17:9) William Sargant a researcher into the effects of emotion on the mind, cites the need “to be on our guard against beliefs acquired in states of emotional arousal when our brains may be betraying us.” According to Sargant, one example is the effect of revivalist preaching and threats of hellfire punishment. Who would not want to be born again to go to heaven if the only alternative were suffering eternal torment? Sargant says that under such emotional stress, “reason is dethroned, the normal brain computer is temporarily put out of action, and new ideas and beliefs are uncritically accepted.”—The Mind Possessed.
So, then, how can one tell if a belief on the matter of being born again has been uncritically accepted? The course of true wisdom is to be guided by everything that God’s holy spirit caused Bible writers to record. Christians are encouraged to worship God ‘with their power of reason’ and need to make sure that what they believe is true.—Romans 12:1, 2; 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

So, here's the scripture:

JOHN 3:3-5
“In answer Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is BORN AGAIN,, he cannot SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.” Nicodémus said to him: “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born, can he?” Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is BORN FROM WATER AND SPIRIT, HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.”

Those who enter the kingdom of God must be born again. That is clear. The Kingdom of God is a divinely instituted heavenly government. Those who make up this government must be born again.
What apparently isn't so clear is who make up this kingdom; what is the purpose of this kingdom; and for what reason are people made a part of this government ruled by a King?

When looking at the meaning of Jesus' words, there are some things to consider:

GOD’S PURPOSE FOR MANKIND
The first man, Adam, was created a perfect human son of God. (Luke 3:38) Jehovah God never intended that Adam should die. Adam and his wife, Eve, had the prospect of producing a sinless human family that would live forever and fill a paradise earth. (Genesis 1:28) Death was not part of God’s original purpose for man and woman. It invaded the human scene only as a result of rebellion against divine law.—Genesis 2:15-17; 3:17-19.
This rebellion raised huge moral issues, such as the rightfulness of God’s sovereignty and the ability of humans to remain faithful to his laws. Time would be needed to settle these issues. But Jehovah God’s purpose for mankind did not change, and he cannot fail in what he sets out to do. He fully intends to fill the earth with a perfect human family that will enjoy everlasting life in Paradise. (Psalm 37:29; 104:5; Isaiah 45:18; Luke 23:43) We must keep this fundamental truth in mind when we consider Jesus’ words about being born again.

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE SOUL AT DEATH
The belief that the human soul is immortal is not taught in God’s spirit-inspired Word, the Bible. Not once does it use the term “immortal soul.” It states that Adam was created as a soul, not with a soul. The Bible shows that the soul, or person, who dies has no conscious existence. (Psalm 146:3, 4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Ezekiel 18:4) Consequently, philosophers have held unscriptural views about the soul. We need to guard against misleading ideas that could cloud our understanding of Jesus’ words about being born again.

BORN AGAIN TO RULE AS KINGS
Jesus told Nicodemus that those who are “born again . . . enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3-5) What is that Kingdom? In symbolic language, early in human history, Jehovah God gave notice of his purpose to use a special “seed”—a coming ruler—to crush the head of the original Serpent, Satan the Devil. (Genesis 3:15; Revelation 12:9) As revealed progressively in the Scriptures, this “seed” is identified as Jesus Christ, who reigns with corulers in a unique expression of God’s sovereignty, the Messianic Kingdom. (Psalm 2:8, 9; Isaiah 9:6, 7; Daniel 2:44; 7:13, 14) This is the Kingdom of heaven, a government in the heavens that will vindicate Jehovah’s sovereignty and rescue mankind from bondage to sin and death.—Matthew 6:9, 10.
Associated with Jesus as corulers are 144,000 who are bought from humankind. (Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:1-4) God has chosen some from Adam’s imperfect human family to become these “holy ones of the Supreme One,” who rule with Christ in the Messianic Kingdom. (Daniel 7:27; 1 Corinthians 6:2; Revelation 3:21; 20:6) These men and women put faith in Jesus Christ, who said that they would be “born again.” (John 3:5-7)

Again, for a moment, let's look at:
GOD’S PURPOSE FOR MANKIND
2 PETER 3:13
“But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.”
M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122) comments: “In Isa. lxv, 17, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people.”
Christ Jesus became “higher than the heavens” (Heb 7:26) in that he was thereby placed “far above every government and authority and power and lordship . . . not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.”—Eph 1:19-21; Mt 28:18.
Christian followers of Jesus, as “partakers of the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1), are assigned by God as “heirs” in union with Christ, through whom God purposed “to gather all things together again.” “The things in the heavens,” that is, those called to heavenly life, are the first to be thus gathered into unity with God through Christ. (Eph 1:8-11) Their inheritance is “reserved in the heavens.” (1Pe 1:3, 4; Col 1:5; compare Joh 14:2, 3.) They are “enrolled” and have their “citizenship” in the heavens. (Heb 12:20-23; Php 3:20) They form the “New Jerusalem” seen in John’s vision as “coming down out of heaven from God.” (Re 21:2, 9, 10; compare Eph 5:24-27.) Since this vision is initially stated to be of “a new heaven and a new earth” (Re 21:1), it follows that both are represented in what is thereafter described. Hence the “new heaven” must correspond to Christ together with his “bride,” the “New Jerusalem,” and the “new earth” is seen in the ‘peoples of mankind’ who are their subjects and who receive the blessings of their rule, as depicted in verses 3 and 4.
EPHESIANS 1:10
“for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. [Yes,] in him,”

A government has subjects. Those who make up the Kingdom (Jesus Christ and his associate rulers) will have subjects. A person doesn't have to be a part of the government to be ruled by it or to benefit from it's rule, do they Nick?

I find that what people mean by “born again” is not always the same. But usually people that believe they are born again believe they someday expect to be with Christ in heaven. Yet, oddly, they don’t often care or wonder what they will be doing there. Being born again involves much more than accepting Jesus as our S
avior. When Jesus spoke about being born again he said that it was necessary in order to enter the Kingdom of God, that is, to be part of God’s Kingdom, his heavenly government. (John 3:5) Those who are born again will be kings and priests, ruling with Christ. (Rev. 20:6; 5:9, 10) Jesus said that these would be just a “little flock.” (Luke 12:32) If they are kings, there must also be subjects over whom they will rule. Who will these be? The Bible also shows that many people who do the will of God will live here on earth, as happy subjects of that Kingdom. (Matt. 6:10; Ps. 37:11, 29; Prov. 2:21, 22)

The Bible cautions all of us not to be overconfident of our position. We need to keep examining ourselves to be sure that we are really doing what God and Christ require of us. (1 Cor. 10:12) What responsibility did Jesus lay upon his true disciples? (Matt. 28:19, 20; 1 Cor. 9:16) While many claim to be born again, there is only one group who are unitedly carrying out Jesus command worldwide.

There is much that I would like to say on being born again, but, I will let other people state their thoughts and then I will respond.

David

December 11, 2005 at 6:35 am#10745

Participant

Hi david,
Sticking to the principle most people accept that we should not state as truth what is not able to be shown from scripture where does it say Adam was created a perfect human being?
Scripture does say in Gen 1.31
“God saw all that He had made, and behold it was VERY GOOD”
Very good is not perfect and in scriptural; terms there is a difference.
Rom 12.2
” ..so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect”

God looked at what He made from dust-was that perfect?The breath of God is but not necessarily the dust.

December 11, 2005 at 6:44 am#10746

Participant

Hi david,
You must quote Jesus accurately.

You say “these men and women put faith in Jesus Christ who said that they would be born again”
So where did he say that faith would make them born again? He said “unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God”

December 11, 2005 at 6:46 am#10747

Participant

Hi david,
Where does it say God will seek out a group of people who do not need to be born again into the kingdom but they will be ones who are subjects of the kingdom?

December 12, 2005 at 7:54 am#10769

Participant

One will finally be born again by a ” CHANGE if ALIVE, or by a RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, if dead, TO RECEIVE A SPIRITUAL BODY( 1 Cor.15), at Messiah's literal coming.

Flesh and blood CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM( 1 Cor.15:50), compare ( 1 Cor.15) with ( John 3:3-8).

The Messiah is the ONLY ONE YET that is THE FIRST BORN( AGAIN) FROM THE DEAD by a resurrection to a glorified body( Col.1:18).

No one will be FINALLY BORN AGAIN UNTIL MESSIAH COMES, and this flesh body must put on a spiritual body.

Now, how many out there that cannot understand that, and will argue till the cows come home?

If you think that you are FULLY BORN AGAIN, then do a pin test, if you feel pain, then you have not been FULLY BORN AGAIN TO A SPIRITUAL BODY.

You can ONLY be begotten of the spirit right now, and when Messiah comes, you will be fully born again by a ” change ” from flesh to spirit if still alive, or by a resurrection from the dead, if dead, to receive a spirit body which cannot feel pain, and can never die again.

Eliyah C.

December 12, 2005 at 8:22 am#10770

Participant

That which is born of the FLESH IS A FLESH BORN BODY OR BEING, but He that is BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS AND WILL RECEIVE A SPIRIT BORN AGAIN BODY( John 3:3-8; 1 Cor.15).

December 12, 2005 at 8:29 am#10771

Participant

Hi eliyah,

Let scripture speak and test your words.
1Peter 1.3
“Blessed be God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy HAS CAUSED US to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead”

1Peter 1 .23
” for you HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN, not of seed which is imperishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God”

Jn 1.12
“But as many as received him to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name,WHO WERE BORN not of blood , nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God”

December 12, 2005 at 8:41 am#10772

Participant

Those scriptures mean begotten Nick, your using the ( N.I.V.V.).

December 12, 2005 at 8:45 am#10773

Participant

I'm in too much pain to sit and argue with someone who sencually does not have the true Spirit of Yah and who does not obey Him, for He only give His true Spirit to them that OBEY HIM( Acts 5:32).

December 12, 2005 at 2:56 pm#10776

Sultan

Participant

Quote (Eliyah @ Dec. 12 2005,03:45)

I'm in too much pain to sit and argue with someone who sencually does not have the true Spirit of Yah and who does not obey Him, for He only give His true Spirit to them that OBEY HIM( Acts 5:32).

Here we go again. Why not just let the Bible speak for itself. God does not need your commentary. Again whenever a person has a false belief system that can't be proven by scripture there is always the explanation that follows the scripture. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN.

December 12, 2005 at 5:54 pm#10778

Participant

Quote (Eliyah @ Dec. 12 2005,08:22)

That which is born of the FLESH IS A FLESH BORN BODY OR BEING, but He that is BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS AND WILL RECEIVE A SPIRIT BORN AGAIN BODY( John 3:3-8; 1 Cor.15).

Hi eliyah,
Who are these who you say ARE born again but cannot yet BE born again according to you?

Was Jesus speaking of physical rebirth into a new body in Jn 3?. Rebirth is also spoken of as receiving a new body since Jesus is the “firstborn from the dead” but Jesus here is speaking of spiritual rebirth-the baptism in the Spirit.
Jn 3.8
“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going;so it is with everyone who is BORN OF THE SPIRIT”

1Jn shows many characteristics of those who ARE born again.[2.29,3.9,4.7,5.1,5.4,5.18,]

Christ, as the Spirit of Christ[Rom 8.9], is formed in us by this rebirth and that fruit appears on this earth. [Gal 4.19,5.22f]

December 12, 2005 at 6:50 pm#10779

kenrch

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 11 2005,23:58)

I wanted to put this in the “kingdom of God” thread, but it will be easier to find if it has it's own thread.

So, here's the scripture:

When looking at the meaning of Jesus' words, there are some things to consider:

I find that what people mean by “born again” is not always the same. But usually people that bel
ieve they are born again believe they someday expect to be with Christ in heaven. Yet, oddly, they don’t often care or wonder what they will be doing there. Being born again involves much more than accepting Jesus as our Savior. When Jesus spoke about being born again he said that it was necessary in order to enter the Kingdom of God, that is, to be part of God’s Kingdom, his heavenly government. (John 3:5) Those who are born again will be kings and priests, ruling with Christ. (Rev. 20:6; 5:9, 10) Jesus said that these would be just a “little flock.” (Luke 12:32) If they are kings, there must also be subjects over whom they will rule. Who will these be? The Bible also shows that many people who do the will of God will live here on earth, as happy subjects of that Kingdom. (Matt. 6:10; Ps. 37:11, 29; Prov. 2:21, 22)

There is much that I would like to say on being born again, but, I will let other people state their thoughts and then I will respond.

David

David,
In order to “be part or ruled by Jesus and the 144k is to have been changed” Behold all things are new. My old way of life would never enable me to be under the government of God.

Would God let murderers and the such enter His government?
But if that murderer repents accepts Jesus as His Lord then that murderer is forgiven and begins to change. He is no longer the same person he is “born again” a different person who no longer WANTS to sin.
Now this person can be a citizen of the kingdom. But only because “he's been born again”.
I'm not saying that everyone who is born again will be rulers.
But if you want to be just a citizen you must be born again, never wanting to do wrong again.
I agree the ones of the first resurrection are the elect, the 144k who will rule with Christ. But the rest of the citzens cannot enter the kingdom without that “change” from old sinful nature to the new nature he was supposed to be.

Everyone small or great (citizen or ruler)must be born again that is the number one thing everyone will have in common. Anyone in (or under) the kingdom (rulership) must be born again.
Rev 20:12 I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.

December 12, 2005 at 7:27 pm#10785

Participant

Hi kenrch,
Good points.
Jesus is the Lamb of God.
He has a flock of sheep that follow him.
They know the voice of the shepherd and will not listen to others.
Sheep enter the fold through the door of Christ[Jn 10]
The sheep do not necessarily know they are sheep but God does [Matt 25].
Some think they are sheep but are not known by the shepherd.
The sheep are clothed with Christ.[Gal 3]
They wear the correct wedding garments.
Some enter the flock by other illegal means.
Some wear sheep's clothing but are wolves.

You must be born again to become a sheep.

December 12, 2005 at 10:55 pm#10790

Participant

Are you saying Adam wasn't created perfect Nick. He had free will. He chose to become sinful. He chose to sin. It was his choice. At that point, he wasn't perfect.
ROMANS 5:12
“That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.”
And we, have inherited that imperfection.

WHY IS IT NECESSARY FOR ANY CHRISTIANS TO BE “BORN AGAIN”?

God has purposed to associate a limited number of faithful humans with Jesus Christ in the heavenly Kingdom.
Luke 12:32: “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”
Rev. 14:1-3: “I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount Zion [in heaven; see Hebrews 12:22-24], and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . And they are singing as if a new song . . . and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.”

Humans cannot go to heaven with bodies of flesh and blood.
1 Cor. 15:50: “This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”
John 3:6: “What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.” (So, those who make up the kingdom (divinely instituted government with Christ and his associate rulers would have to be “born from the spirit,” to inherit the heavenly kingdom.)

Only persons who have been “born again,” thus becoming God’s sons, can share in the heavenly Kingdom
John 1:12, 13: “As many as did receive him [Jesus Christ], to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (“As many as did receive him” does not mean all humans who have put faith in Christ. Notice who is being referred to, as indicated by verse 11 [“his own people,” the Jews]. The same privilege has been extended to others of mankind, but only to a “little flock.”)
Rom. 8:16, 17: “The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”
1 Pet. 1:3, 4: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.”

What will they do in heaven?
REVELATION 20:6: “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will RULE AS KINGS with him for the thousand years.” (Who will they rule over? Kings have subjects.)
1 CORINTHIANS 6:2: “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”
MATTHEW 25:31
““When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne.”
MATTHEW 19:28
“Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Compare Luke 22:30)
MATTHEW 20:21
“He said to her: “What do you want?” She said to him: “Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.””
REVELATION 20:4
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. . . .And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”
2 TIMOTHY 2:12
“if we go on enduring, we shall also RULE TOGETHER AS KINGS; if we deny, he also will deny us;”
REVELATION 1:6
“and he MADE US TO BE A KINGDOM, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.”

If all those saved are kings, over whom do they rule? A kingdom is a government run by a king. A government has subjects. A king is someone who rules over others. Who are these others?

A kingdom is never all the people. It is a minority that rule for the wellfare of the subjects. This is why it is called a “little flock,” those who are given the kingdom.
LUKE 12:32
““Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.”

But they are not the only ones saved.
JOHN 10:16
““And I have OTHER SHEEP, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”

In Revelation 14, it list the 144,000 who have been “bought from the earth.” (verse 3.) They are called “firstfruits.” (verse 4.) If there are firstfruits, then there are others to follow. In Revelation 7, it also mentions the 144,000 that were “sealed.” Then, “after these things,” after listing the tribes of spiritual Israel, the “Israel of God,” it mentions another group, a “great crowd, which no man was able to number.” (verse 9.) These are the ones who are the subjects of the kingdom, the ones who are ruled over by those doing the ruling. In chapter Revelation 5:9,10, we see those rulers again, singing that new song again. And we are told: “and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to RULE AS KINGS OVER THE EARTH.”” (“over,” the same Greek word and grammatical structure occur at Rev 11:6, and there RS, KJ, Dy translate it as “over.”)
God's original purpose for mankind and the earth which cannot be stopped by anyone is to have perfect humans worshipping him in paradise. This would have been the result had Adam not chosen to sin. This raised issues which had to be resolved.

PSALM 72:8
“And he will have subjects from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of the earth.” (Kings have subjects. The Bible holds out a paradise hope for the majority of mankind.)

1 CORINTHIANS 4:8
“YOU men already have YOUR fill, do YOU? YOU are rich already, are YOU? YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings.”

2 TIMOTHY 2:12
“if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings; if we deny, he also will deny us;”

REVELATION 3:21
“To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”

LUKE 22:28-29
““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,”

JAMES 2:5
“Listen, my beloved brothers. God chose the ones who are poor respecting the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he promised to those who love him, did he not?”

Anyway, I just realized I haven't even read page two of this, so I should see what that has to say.

david.

December 12, 2005 at 11:07 pm#10791

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 12 2005,22:55)

WHY IS IT NECESSARY FOR ANY CHRISTIANS TO BE “BORN AGAIN”?

If all those saved are kings, over whom do they rule? A kingdom is a government run by a king. A government has subjects. A king is someone who rules over others. Who are these others?

PSALM 72:8
“And he will have subjects from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of the earth.” (Kings have subjects. The Bible holds out a paradise hope for the majority of mankind.)

2 TIMOTHY 2:12
“if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings; if we deny, he also will deny us;”

REVELATION 3:21
“To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”

LUKE 22:28-29
““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,”

JAMES 2:5
“Listen, my beloved brothers. God chose the ones who are poor respecting the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he promised to those who love him, did he not?”

Anyway, I just realized I haven't even read page two of this, so I should see what that has to say.

david.

No No david,
What I say does not matter. It is what scripture says the matters. Scripture does not say Adam was created perfect so I cannot say he was.

Can you?

You must be born again to enter the kngdom according to scripture. You say you can enter the kingdom but not as a leader without being born again?

Once again you are on your own and outside of the teaching of the Word of God, as is your way.

December 12, 2005 at 11:17 pm#10793

Woutlaw

Participant

hey Eliyah,

Tell me whats wrong with the NIV?

December 12, 2005 at 11:34 pm#10794

Woutlaw

Participant

somebody clarify 1 John 3:9. Is it saying that those who are truly born again won't sin?

December 13, 2005 at 12:32 am#10797

Participant

Quote (Woutlaw @ Dec. 12 2005,23:34)

somebody clarify 1 John 3:9. Is it saying that those who are truly born again won't sin?

Hi Woutlaw,
Of course Chapter one of the same book says we do. There is intentional sin which we are still capable of and that is what Chapter one discusses. Again 1Jn 5.16 discusses the different seriousness of sins

Then there is unconscious sin [Rom 3.23, Ps 139.23]]which is now ignored and not held against us any more[Ps 32.1-2, ps 85.2,].

Did you not ever say to your kids what I also think is implicit here
“If you really want to show you love me then you would be good”?

December 13, 2005 at 2:59 am#10804

Participant

Quote

No No david,
What I say does not matter. It is what scripture says the matters. Scripture does not say Adam was created perfect so I cannot say he was.

And neither does scripture say he was created imperfect. But no where do we have any hint that he was created imperfect by God. There is nothing to indicate that God creates anything imperfectly.
I realize that mankind is far from perfection now. But what reason do we have to believe that something Jehovah makes wouldn't be perfect?
Are you saying he made Adam imperfect on purpose?
After he chose disobedience and sin he was certainly imperfect.
But do we have any reason to believe he was imperfect before that?

DEUTERONOMY 32:4
“The Rock, perfect is his activity . . . .”
(Nick, if you can find a scripture that says Jehovah does anything imperfectly, then your belief may have some merit. But you will find no such scritpure.)
PSALM 104:24
“How many your works are, O Jehovah! All of them in wisdom you have made. The earth is full of your productions.”
1 TIMOTHY 4:4
“The reason for this is that every creation of God is fine, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,”
GENESIS 1:31
“God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good.”

This was the tragic start Adam gave the human race. Paradise, happiness, and everlasting life were forfeited, and in their place sin, suffering, and death were acquired through disobedience. “Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” “Death ruled as king from Adam down.” (Ro 5:12, 14)

Nick, Jehovah is the standard by how we judge what is right and wrong, good and bad, perfect, and imperfect. For you or I to say something is right or wrong, perfect or not, is meaningless.

However Jehovah chose to make Adam, it was by all definitions perfect.

December 13, 2005 at 3:14 am#10805