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Quote (life_of_praise @ Oct. 03 2006,06:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 03 2006,01:11) Quote (david @ Oct. 03 2006,00:37) Quote Why is he bowing to angels?
Because an angel is very powerful creature, and one that if you suddenly saw it in it's glory, may cause you to fall to the ground. But he was corrected.Quote Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship [Gk proskyneo] before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
The word proskyneo can be translated in a number of ways. It simply means to bow down, show obeisance, honor and respect and can mean to worship. Your Bible translator believes in the trinity. So, he wants to show Jesus being worthy of worship and hence, being God. That is translational bias. Please see the “worship” thread on Jesus.A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John 1:1
This angel presented it in signs to John. In this verse:Quote Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
We see that by inspiration John came to be in the Lord's day. Remember, the angel was presenting it in signs. So in 4:2 it seems that in an instant of time, John is spiritually transported by God’s spirit (active force) to the very throne of Jehovah.
Hi david,
I think it more likely that it was a vision seen by John while on earth as God cannot be seen by man.Anyone who is repulsed by this book is showing they have yet to be blessed by the gift of God's Spirit. Ask for it LOP.
Now stop.I've prayed, studied and have compared and studied and prayed and of course asked the Holy Spirit guide me to truth.
Can you honestly say that you have asked the Lord to do that with you in Revelations and really put forth the effort to study?
Anytime someone sees things differently…the first thing people say is well they don't have the Holy Spirit. That's as bad as certain denominations say…well they were never saved to begin with.
That's wrong to say and wrong to do.
And to be honest, all I see is lame excuses to why John the Divine bows to angels and both times the angels tell him not to do that.
There's no excuse for John to say “like unto”. He's either the Son of man or He's not. The prophets in the OT said that because they have never…never seen Jesus.
This John is supposedly was with Jesus. One would think He would know Jesus.
And if he wasn't sure…since he said “like unto”…why is someone going to drop to their need and face to the ground and worship?
Something doesn't add up folks…and it's not that I haven't received the Holy Spirit.
Open your eyes and study and ask the Lord to lead you.
Hi LoP,Welcome.
If Revelation (by the way, I had to be corrected here too about the pronunciation so a good turn deserves another)
reflects other passages of the first covenant, this is not unusual and is no basis to reject it. In fact, it is a very good thing!What do you see as the motive of John the Revelator?
e.g. Is it to turn us from the one true God? Or from Christ as our Lord? Or to promote false doctrines as the Trinity? or other unsound doctrine?As far as I can tell, Christ is reflected there as the son of God, seated at the right hand of God and acknowledged to be Lord as stated in Ephesians, Philippians and elsewhere.
“like unto” I bear in mind that the disciples saw Jesus as an ordinary human being, not as described in Revelation which has a semblance to the description offered in Daniel, and so can be understood as being in his glorified state.
Off the top of my head (and please correct me as it's been a while since I read these passages): Did Daniel not bow before the angel also? Did Abraham not bow in Gen ?18? Did Gideon not bow? I believe that Joshua bowed before that awsome angel.
David is right in that they are powerful and we are created a little lower than they after all. I believe that I shall bow before an angel if I were to see one in its glory… not because I worship him as God, but to appreciate the fact that he is a messenger come from God! “I am Gabriel who stands before God,” and just like that, the priest was mute.
FALLING BEFORE ANGELS:
ABRAHAM
Genesis 18: 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.
JOSHUA
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but [as] captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?NO MENTION OF GIDEON BOWING: In fact, in his case, he seemed to have a delayed reponse/recognition!
Jdg 6:22 And when Gideon perceived that he [was] an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face.
DANIEL- King Nebuchadnezzar fell before daniel himself and worshiped him in acknowledgment that his GOD is GOD Most High.
Daniel 2:46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face, prostrate before Daniel, and commanded that they should present an offering and incense to him. 47 The king answered Daniel, and said, “Truly your God is the God of gods, the Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, since you could reveal this secret.” 48 Then the king promoted Daniel and gave him many great gifts; and he made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief administrator over all the wise men of Babylon. 49 Also Daniel petitioned the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego over the affairs of the province of Babylon; but Daniel sat in *the gate of the king.- Daniel falls before the angel Gabriel
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end [shall be] the vision.Cubes…you seem to have left out worship.
John the Divine…whoever that may be… bowed down and started worshipping. That angel had to tell him at different times(twice) not to do that.
Again, if you guys choose to continue on with Revelations…that's fine… but my study…led by the Holy Spirit has showed me too many red, red flags.
The end of times was already revealed to us by Jesus and the OT prophets.
No need for the prophecies to be re-prophesized.
Jesus made it clear about the end times. And His warning about let no man deceive you…is good enough for me.
I'm gonna stick with that.
Have a good one and may God Bless you!
🙂
Are you saying that you don't believe in the canonicity of Revelation? Is it because you feel it “steals” from Daniel?
Well it takes from the book of Enoch as well.
Of course Jesus taught from Enoch as well, but most people will never read it to find out if I know what I am talking about.
If prophetic books are really inspired and are all describing the exact same events then they have to agree with each other. It does not mean they are fraudulent. They would have to agree. Each successive prophetic book simply unveils more of the truth.
Daniels book was sealed, Revelation was not. Progressive Revelations.
OH, I see,
You think something is fishy because John bowed to an angel. He wasn't worshipping the angel. He was bowing in fear, respect and awe.
Angels either appear as normal men or as awe inspiring spiritual beings. Everytime an angel appeared in his glorious body, in the scriptures, men always dropped to ground.
If the text of Revelation encouraged the worship of angels I would agree with you. But it does not. John was not worshipping the angel but bowing and the angel redirected him to bow to God.
Quote (life_of_praise @ Oct. 04 2006,01:51) Again, if you guys choose to continue on with Revelations…that's fine… but my study…led by the Holy Spirit has showed me too many red, red flags….
Hi LoP,Do you not wish to test your ground or ours? Or give us proof of why you have red flags?
So far the flags you raised have been scripturally shown to have precedent, and on that score you should concede the point about John falling before an angel and worshiping him (e.g. Joshua worshiped the angel, though not as the Living God of course). If there were no such scriptures, or if Joshua would have been punished for doing that, your point would hold.
We are seekers of the kingdom of God ourselves. I encourage you to stay and explore with us, bringing your concerns to the table, and at least testing your belief against the word with the help of others to ensure it comes forth as gold in the end. I look forward to your contributions.
Quote (Mercy @ Oct. 04 2006,02:07) OH, I see, You think something is fishy because John bowed to an angel. He wasn't worshipping the angel. He was bowing in fear, respect and awe.
Angels either appear as normal men or as awe inspiring spiritual beings. Everytime an angel appeared in his glorious body, in the scriptures, men always dropped to ground.
If the text of Revelation encouraged the worship of angels I would agree with you. But it does not. John was not worshipping the angel but bowing and the angel redirected him to bow to God.
Mercy, I think you need to read the Scriptures that I have posted. John the Divine did not say that he bowed out of fear and awe. That is not what he said.
And lastly cubes, as for this site, no, I'm not leaving. 🙂 As for this thread yes, you're not going to change my mind or vice versa. Other things were pointed out but certain things were focused on…and that's fine.
I asked the Lord to show me and He did. I trust what I have learned via the Holy Spirit. But going on about something that neither one of us is going to bend on is rather pointless. I'm not trying to be rude so please don't take it as such.
See you around on other threads! God Bless you!
Hi lop,
If you inherited a wonderful home and were given a set of keys to all the doors would you look at the keys and select the ones you liked and throw the rest away?Would it not be safer to hold them all until you are certain that there is not another door or two you have not yet seen for which you will someday need that funny looking key?
Hi Lop,
To help prove that God exists and the bible to be true I use Revelation 11:18:
And the nations were wroth, and thy wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to DESTROY THEM THAT DESTROY THE EARTH.It is a fact that the book of Revelation was written in the first century. What were people doing in the first century that was destroying the earth?
Clearly John is speaking of today.
Quote (life_of_praise @ Oct. 04 2006,03:37) Mercy, I think you need to read the Scriptures that I have posted. John the Divine did not say that he bowed out of fear and awe. That is not what he said. And lastly cubes, as for this site, no, I'm not leaving. 🙂 As for this thread yes, you're not going to change my mind or vice versa. Other things were pointed out but certain things were focused on…and that's fine.
I asked the Lord to show me and He did. I trust what I have learned via the Holy Spirit. But going on about something that neither one of us is going to bend on is rather pointless. I'm not trying to be rude so please don't take it as such.
See you around on other threads! God Bless you!
See you around.- King Nebuchadnezzar fell before daniel himself and worshiped him in acknowledgment that his GOD is GOD Most High.
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