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I appreciated so much your explanation of the trinity that I thought maybe you could give me some insight into the book of revelation and its meaning???
I am slowly but surely studying this book and I am especially interested in the identity of the woman (prostitute) in Revelation 17.
The book has a lot of revelation and I could not possibly interpret it here and now, but some things in the book are already known.
Do you have a specific scripture or section that you are interested in? We can start a discussion one subject/section at a time. I think this would be rewarding as the book points out in Revelation 1:3
Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
A discussion on the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17 has been started. Also; if anyone is interested in discussing other parts of the Book of Revelation, then just reply to this post.
Revelation 12 KJV
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
The woman spoken of in this verse is Israel and the twelve stars are the twelve tribes of Israel. The birth it is referring to is that of the messiah.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
When Jesus was born, Herod sent troops to try and murder the Son of God.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
This tells us that it was Jesus and that he was resurrected.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
A remnant of Israelites were reserved in the wilderness from the Sword of destruction of Rome.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
These verses tell of Satan and his forces being cast out of heaven. When did it occur? It occured after Jesus defeated death by his death and resurrection. And the accuser of the saints was cast out of heaven. For he can not accuse them any longer. For they are covered by the blood of the lamb.
The remaining part of Rev. 12 would take reseaching the history of Israel. It could be events that may have happened or events that are yet to happen. Personally, I have never been one to dabble much in Revelations. I find it interesting, but nonessential to the faith at the present time.
Hi H,
You say
“These verses tell of Satan and his forces being cast out of heaven. When did it occur? It occured after Jesus defeated death by his death and resurrection. And the accuser of the saints was cast out of heaven. For he can not accuse them any longer. For they are covered by the blood of the lamb.”Really?
So how come he is called the accuser of the brethren if he never had a chance to do this work?Nick, he was cast out of heaven at that time. He can no longer stand and accuse the saints, for the saints have been redeemed by the blood of the lamb.
Do you remember when the devil stood before the throne of God and accused Job. He was still in heaven at the time. He was cast out when he was defeated by Jesus.
Heb. 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hi H,
And there is Joshua in Zech 4.
But brethren has a certain meaning in scripture-brothers and sisters in Christ.
Heb 2
” 10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,”
The scriptures you posted mean nothing to me Nick. What I mean is I don't see what point you are trying to make with them on this thread as a reply to my previous post.
I could be wrong but I believe that Nick is saying that he believes satan has yet to tossed out of Heaven and that it stills remains to happen in the future. I believe it will happen just prior, or at the start, of the final 3 1/2 years of this age (hence thousand two hundred and threescore days).
I agree that the woman is Israel but the “offspring” in verse 17 are the believers (many of them beheaded) from the tribulation period. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Just my opinion
I believe that a jewish remnant will be supernaturally protected for the coming of the Messiah either through; blindness of those searching, pillars of fire, or 100 pound hailstones, etc., least satan should wipe them from the earth.
Thus all of Israel will be saved in a day. and if the fall of Israel resulted in the salvation of us gentiles then what shall their salvation achieve…the rule of the Messiah on earth? (I'm sure Jesus said somewhere that he would not return until Israel called out for Him).
Just my thoughts.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 08 2006,02:00) I could be wrong but I believe that Nick is saying that he believes satan has yet to tossed out of Heaven and that it stills remains to happen in the future. I believe it will happen just prior, or at the start, of the final 3 1/2 years of this age (hence thousand two hundred and threescore days). I agree that the woman is Israel but the “offspring” in verse 17 are the believers (many of them beheaded) from the tribulation period. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Just my opinion
I agree on all points ST, and with the remnant of Israel being protected. Are these the one who flee into the hills as Jesus advises?.Hi ST,
Matt 24
“15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. “
I'm not sure but when it talks about “then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time”. I believe most, if not all, those who hold to a testimony of Jesus will lose their life during this time (I do not believe that the jewish remnant are saved until the end of the 3 1/2 years when they call out onto the Lord)
Just my opinion.
Satan has already been cast out of heaven. He was cast out just as it says in scripture once he was defeated by the blood of the lamb. It was at that time war broke out in heaven, for he who had control of death had been defeated and because of this, he lost all rights to stand before the throne of God and accuse the brethren. For the day of salvation brought his defeat and his expulsion out of heaven.
Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. (NASB)This tells me that the spiritual forces of wickedness are IN HEAVENLY PLACES – not on earth
In Luke 10:18 Jesus told his disciples that he saw Satan falling from heaven like a star. Yet this was before the resurrection and as a result of the work of witness just accomplished in the disciples when he sent them out to cast out devils. So he went back up again? Only to go back down again at the resurrection?
Jesus is called a mediator – an intercessor – an advocate. What need is there of an advocate in Heaven if there is no accuser present?
In Rev 12:10 there is a voice of a group in Heaven (the question then is who are those whose voices are heard aloud from Heaven?)
This group are rejoicing because the accuser of THEIR BRETHREN is cast down to earth.Who are their brethren? – this would help us to identify who they are.
They are said to have overcome by the blood of the Lamb. So this is not a Jewish group prior to the arrival of the Messiah – for they never had the blood of the Lamb of God. (and no one overcomes by the blood of any other Lamb, at best the blood of a natural lamb covered sin, but it did not give an overcoming power of victory)
This group called the brethren of those in Heaven are clearly Christians (be it Jewish or otherwise) therefore and these (in Heaven) have gone on before them and now are rejoicing in the fact that the accuser of their brethren is now cast down.In Eze 28:13 we are told that Satan was in Eden in the garden of God, as Gen 2 confirms – yet clearly he was later in Heaven (in Job)
I don't believe that we can flatly say that the Devil has already been cast out of Heaven – truly his power in Heaven has been destroyed – why? Because now an intercessor stands between him and God in the presence of God for us! So Satan's voice falls on deaf ears because there is a perfect cleansing blood upon the throne that takes away sin till there be no remembrance of it.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ Sep. 09 2006,14:43) Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. (NASB)This tells me that the spiritual forces of wickedness are IN HEAVENLY PLACES – not on earth
In Luke 10:18 Jesus told his disciples that he saw Satan falling from heaven like a star. Yet this was before the resurrection and as a result of the work of witness just accomplished in the disciples when he sent them out to cast out devils. So he went back up again? Only to go back down again at the resurrection?
Jesus is called a mediator – an intercessor – an advocate. What need is there of an advocate in Heaven if there is no accuser present?
In Rev 12:10 there is a voice of a group in Heaven (the question then is who are those whose voices are heard aloud from Heaven?)
This group are rejoicing because the accuser of THEIR BRETHREN is cast down to earth.Who are their brethren? – this would help us to identify who they are.
They are said to have overcome by the blood of the Lamb. So this is not a Jewish group prior to the arrival of the Messiah – for they never had the blood of the Lamb of God. (and no one overcomes by the blood of any other Lamb, at best the blood of a natural lamb covered sin, but it did not give an overcoming power of victory)
This group called the brethren of those in Heaven are clearly Christians (be it Jewish or otherwise) therefore and these (in Heaven) have gone on before them and now are rejoicing in the fact that the accuser of their brethren is now cast down.In Eze 28:13 we are told that Satan was in Eden in the garden of God, as Gen 2 confirms – yet clearly he was later in Heaven (in Job)
I don't believe that we can flatly say that the Devil has already been cast out of Heaven – truly his power in Heaven has been destroyed – why? Because now an intercessor stands between him and God in the presence of God for us! So Satan's voice falls on deaf ears because there is a perfect cleansing blood upon the throne that takes away sin till there be no remembrance of it.
Dear Malcolm,Brother, how can he accuse any who are blamless. All who accept Jesus are cleansed of their sins and their sins are remembered no more. The devil cannot accuse the blood bought souls of the saints. Praise God for we are free. We are children of the Almighty God, who sent his Son to save us, and now, the accuser has no power over the blood bought.
Rev. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
HI H,
So the Brothers of Jesus are accused day and night by Satan and they withstood him and overcame him. Sounds like New Testament to me.
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