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Hi Mchael,
Yes we need the spirit of discernment to understand spiritual things. It is an essential gift and part of the Body of Christ. But like all of the gifts it works with the others and fits in with other members of the body and should be submitted and tested by others in the body as there are false gifts too. Likewise it will never take away truth but add layers.Yes Jesus spoke in parables but he also spoke plainly. He used similes such as “Dog”[eg Mk 7] to describe gentiles. But the parables have to be discerned from the plain speaking. Not all is in parables and parables can contain prophetic word as well such as the parables about the wedding feast.
Hi,
Ok looking at Seraphim, Cherubim and Cherubs using Is 6, Rev 4 an Ez 1 and 10
Correct me if I am wrong but
I think the description of the 4 living beings in Rev 4 is just about exactly the same as that in Isaiah 6 and that would suggest that they are Seraphim. They are “around” the Throne ,have 6 wings but no wheels.They can stand or hover and are covered in eyes. Each has one face, like a lion, a man, an ox and an eagle. They praise God constantly.
Cherubim are different described in Ps 80 and 99 and Is 37.16 as being under the throne[the throne is over them]
I wonder if they support the throne? They have a wheel [and a wheel within a wheel with the rims full of eyes] and each has four wings and four faces each-the same four ox, eagle, man and lion. They only have four wings but seem to have hands and human form.
Cherubs are different again but little detail is given. Could they be archangels or sons of God as Satan appeared in that group in Job 1-2 and is not described as being different to his fellows there? Also Satan is described as a cherub later onn in Ez 28.
I realise some of this is speculation. Who can add more ?Those wheels have got me. I have no idea what they are. Perhaps a form of transport or heavenly chariot with living beings inside? And saucer shaped.
Hi t8,
What gets me is the fact that there are so many descriptions of models of cherubs and cherubim made of gold or wood in the design of the ark of the covenant and the tabernacle etc-far more in fact than ever described in the flesh. How did the designers know what they looked like so they could fulfill God's design plan and why did God use these at all ?Quote (t8 @ Nov. 24 2004,07:00) Those wheels have got me. I have no idea what they are. Perhaps a form of transport or heavenly chariot with living beings inside? And saucer shaped.
Chrystolite is not the correct translation, I forget what it is, but I remember that it was a material used for making aluminum. And so the rims are made of Aluminum. The transparet expance is a wind shield. The wheel within a wheel is the rim in a tire. Also the word living beings is translated as beast or creatures in some bibles.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 24 2004,07:57) Hi t8,
What gets me is the fact that there are so many descriptions of models of cherubs and cherubim made of gold or wood in the design of the ark of the covenant and the tabernacle etc-far more in fact than ever described in the flesh. How did the designers know what they looked like so they could fulfill God's design plan and why did God use these at all ?
If the word Cherub means guardian and if the word Sereph means firey ones than what we have is a parable. The word fire when used parabolically means judge, judging or judgment. Over all what this means is that there are guardian angels (messengers of God) who take part in the judgment. As for the number of wings of the messenger of God, that should be counted as status. The 4 cherubs are the 4 serephs who go from 4 wings to 6 wings.Hi Michael.
So you say Cherubim are Seraphim? Where is the evidence?
Or Cherubim become Seraphim? Where is the evidence?
They can gain more wings-do they lose their hands or what happens to them? What about the wheels-do they fall off?
And Fire always means judgement-what about when it means fire?
Angels judge? Where is the scripture to support this?
Cherub means Guardian-not in my concordances?Sorry but your bewildering leaps of logic leave me astounded. I see no more evidence that Seraphim become Cherubim or vice versa than that cows become sheep. However I will await more evidence from you.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 24 2004,18:17) Hi Michael.
So you say Cherubim are Seraphim? Where is the evidence?
Or Cherubim become Seraphim? Where is the evidence?
They can gain more wings-do they lose their hands or what happens to them? What about the wheels-do they fall off?
And Fire always means judgement-what about when it means fire?
Angels judge? Where is the scripture to support this?
Cherub means Guardian-not in my concordances?Sorry but your bewildering leaps of logic leave me astounded. I see no more evidence that Seraphim become Cherubim or vice versa than that cows become sheep. However I will await more evidence from you.
And Fire always means judgement-what about when it means fire?///// REPLY: Slow down. I said (WHEN) it is being used parabolically. If you will only study your bible you will find that the (4) angels with four wings are on earth and later they are before the thrown. Remember this: sometimes what is not said is as important as what is said. This is really funny.>>>>>They can gain more wings-do they lose their hands or what happens to them? What about the wheels-do they fall off?Hi Michael,
They are not meant to be funny but serious questions so can you address them? When Ezekiel saw the Cherubim he was on earth but he saw a vision. You still have not presented evidence that the forms change from earth to heaven? Or any other evidence on the other matters than what seems to be an opinion? I would really like to be shown how you derive these conclusions and, if your inspiration is spiritual where the proof for it is in the Word?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 24 2004,19:11) Hi Michael,
They are not meant to be funny but serious questions so can you address them? When Ezekiel saw the Cherubim he was on earth but he saw a vision. You still have not presented evidence that the forms change from earth to heaven? Or any other evidence on the other matters than what seems to be an opinion? I would really like to be shown how you derive these conclusions and, if your inspiration is spiritual where the proof for it is in the Word?
To prove to someone that Im devinely inspired !!! Its not possible to prove anything to a person, what they dont want to believe. Only God is onipotent. AS for parts falling off, no, nothing falls off. If I start showing everything, than you wont have to look for yourself. I dont talk about every little thing I know because, now is not the time. If you dont think that Im speaking factually, than do like everyone else, and think Im voiceing my opinion.Fair enough Michael. It takes courage to submit your views to any forum and I appreciate the effort involved. I have had plenty of good and bad ideas in the past and so long as we are prepared to listen to others it can only do good to share.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 24 2004,20:05) Fair enough Michael. It takes courage to submit your views to any forum and I appreciate the effort involved. I have had plenty of good and bad ideas in the past and so long as we are prepared to listen to others it can only do good to share.
Thank you for your kind reply.Isaiah 6:6. NIV. Then one of the (seraphs)flew to me with a live coal – Ezekiel 10:2. NIV.The Lord said to the man clothed in linen, “Go in among the wheels beneath the (cherubim.) Fill your hands with burning coals – Live coal or burning coal is a type of fire, and symbolically fire means judgement. Ezekiel 1:5. NIV. In appearance their form was that of a MAN. Ezekiel 10:3. NIV. Now the cherubim were standing on the south side of the temple – (The temple is here on earth). Revelation 4:8. NIV. Each of the four living creatures had six wings – (The seraphs, cherubim and the living creatures all have the appearance of a eagle, ox, lion and a man.)
Hi Michael,
The four living creatures in Rev 4 had one face and 6 wings.
” At the very centre ,around the throne itself stood 4 living creatures covered with eyes front and back
The first creature resembled a lion
the second and ox
the third had the face of a man ,
while the fourth looked like and eagle in flight.
Each of the 4 living creatutes had 6 wings and eyes all over inside and out”
So each had one face only.Compare with Is 6 .1-2. 6 wings and no mention of 4 faces so probably one.
” ..I saw the Lord seated on a high and lofty throne with the train of His garment filling the Temple.
Seraphim were staioned above : each of them had 6 wings .With 2 they veiled their faces ,with 2 they veiled their feet and with two they hovered above”Compare with Ez 1 description of Cherubim
” Their form was human but each had 4 faces and 4 win
” Their faces were like this. Each had the face of a man, but on the right side was the face of a lion, and onthe laft side the face of an ox and finally each had the face of an eagle”
” Human hands were under their wings “
” I saw wheels on the ground , one beside each of the 4 living creatures”
” the rims were full of eyes”
” the wheels moved with them”
Totally different in every way I would have thought. Human form with 4 faces each and 4 wings with wheels . No eyes all over but only on the wheel rims.Now with regard to the coals.
Is 6 says ” Then one of the seraphim flew to me , holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar” So they did not contain coals but got them from the altar.
The used the embers to touch his mouth saying” now that this has touched your lips your wickedness is removed, your sin purged” so it was to cleanse and not judge.
Compare with Ez 1.13 ” In among the living creatures something like burning coals of fire could be seen; they seemed like torches moving to and fro among the living creatures “as again in 10.2 and 7.The coals were not on the altar but among the creatures.
Different again.
The coals here seem to symbolise the glory of God as it leaves Jerusalem and not judgement.It is hard to agree with you given the above detailed differences.
Quote (Guest @ Nov. 24 2004,17:31) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 24 2004,07:00) Those wheels have got me. I have no idea what they are. Perhaps a form of transport or heavenly chariot with living beings inside? And saucer shaped.
Chrystolite is not the correct translation, I forget what it is, but I remember that it was a material used for making aluminum. And so the rims are made of Aluminum. The transparet expance is a wind shield. The wheel within a wheel is the rim in a tire. Also the word living beings is translated as beast or creatures in some bibles.
NIV translation – chrysolite. KJ translation – Beryl. Other bible translation – Topaz. Aluminum – in its metallic form – does not exist naturally. It is found only in combination with other minerals in the form of silicate and oxide compounds which make up about 8 per cent of the earth's crust. Aluminum is the third most common crustal element and the most common crustal metal on earth. These mineral compounds are very stable and it took many years of research to find a way to remove the metal from the ore minerals in which it is found.Aluminum can be Mixed with small, often minute, quantities of other materials such as iron, silicon, zinc, copper, magnesium, tin, titamium, lithium, chromium, tungsten, manganese, nickel, zirconium and boron, it is possible to produce an array of alloys with very different physical properties.
Hi Michael,
The wheels are said in Ez 1 and 10 to resemble Chrysolite but it does not say they are chrysolite. So it looks gemlike rather than like an alloy of the mineral content.
Chrysolite itself is a silicate mineral -as such is topaz and beryl. However the name is also applied to other gems such and chrysoberyl which contains aluminium.
I hope this helps.Hi Michael,
You say the rims of the wheels or Ez 10 are aluminium. But all the bible says about the rims is that they were 'full of eyes' and does not describe them or say what they are made of.
You also say there is a “tranparent expanse” that are windshields. No mention of any such expanse. It seems much of the information you are giving us here is not from the source we both know and trust, the bible.
So where does this extrabiblical information come from and is it as trustworthy?Hi Michael,
The cherubim have four hands -one under each wing and they too are covered in eyes -even over their hands and wheels.[ez 10.12]The spirit of the beings was in the wheels[ez 1.21].There is an expanse over their heads under the throne and resembling crystal.[ex 1.22-26]
One bible suggested each of the four faces faced a different direction so they did not need to turn them when they moved.
Fascinating.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 26 2004,22:06) Hi Michael,
You say the rims of the wheels or Ez 10 are aluminium. But all the bible says about the rims is that they were 'full of eyes' and does not describe them or say what they are made of.
You also say there is a “tranparent expanse” that are windshields. No mention of any such expanse. It seems much of the information you are giving us here is not from the source we both know and trust, the bible.
So where does this extrabiblical information come from and is it as trustworthy?
The word (eyes) could be used to discribe ribits. The words (exspance like ice) and (clear exspance) could be used to discribe a windshield. Although the words (hands) are literal, in one place it could mean also a cargo door.So where does this extrabiblical information come from and is it as trustworthy? My reply: It is my interpretation of scripture. I could say that the interpretation is trustworthy, but what do you want to believe. Most christians prefer to think of parabols as literal and fantastic.
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