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Book of Enoch, Dead Sea Scrolls and The Bible.
These writtings posted here, are taken from other Christian message boards. It is a conversation between myself and other christians. The post have been edited and re-edited for the purpose of making it easyer to read.
There are a number of gnostic and pagan books of Enoch. However there is one Book of Enoch that is not pagan or gnostic in origen. It was written by a unknown prophet about 167 B.C. The same Book of Enoch was found in the dead sea scrolls. Although the book openly states that it is speaking parabolically,( or in other words not Enoch ) many authorities object to its use saying that its too reveiling and, or that it was not written by Enoch. The real Book of Enoch that Im talking about, was edited and translated into english by R.H. Charles. The Jews that were called the Essenes, used the Book of Enoch, along with the first Christians. The Jews who were first in control of the temple before 167 B.C., were forced out of the temple to go live in the desert, by the Hellenistic Jewish priest and people. It was those Jews, who would latter become known as the Essenes. The Hellenistic Jews were a secret society, who were involved in the greek language and customs. It was they, the Hellenistic priest who had Jesus put to death. Jesus was against them because they had corrupted the faith, and departed from Gods truth by adding their traditions to the law.
Jesus was murdured by that secret society to protect their interest.
Although that is true, Jesus makes it clear that no one could take his life, but gave his life, in order to fulfill prophecy.
The book of Enoch does not disagree with the bible, but helps a person better understand whats being said in the bible.The Hellenist and the Essenes were mentioned so that you would know that a change had came about. The Hellenistic Jews forcibly removed the true priest of God, along with many people who were made to live out in the desert.
It is not certain, but some believe that John and Jesus may have been Essenes.
Note: (The dead sea scrolls also comes from the Essene community).
Not only did the Hellenist have Jesus put to death by the Romans, but God Himself also condemed the Hellenist for rejecting Jesus. That is why God used the Romans to distroy the temple.
In a number of secret societies they are told to go into all of the different churches and become members, decons and pastors. It is their idea to surplant themselves as the true believers, so their seed will be the ones to inheirit the earth. Do you think God does not know this,? will God allow their seed to inherit earth ? And what do you think they teach ?
Interresting, but a little bit off from the topic.
The Book of Enoch:
Enoch was written before The Damascus Document, and may have preceded the Maccabean revolt; it was therefore, composed between 172 and 167 B.C. In all likelihood it was a primary scripture, and may have been produced during their desert exile. In 1913, the English scholar, Canon R. H. Charles, published his edition of the work, together with an analysis, in which he divided it into its sections, and also dated. Enoch was one of the major scriptures of the Essene sect.
The Book of Enoch was highly prized by the early christians as devinely inspired.
Celsus, in his book (True Discourse), was written about 175 A.D. it was a attack upon Christianity and it refers to Enoch as an authoritative Christian scripture. (Origen, Contra Celsum, V, lix); Origen states that it was circulated among the Christian churches as a highly valued if not an entirely canonical revelation (Ibid. De Principiis, I, iii, 3). However, as the Catholic Church of early Christianity became more dominant over the Judean Christians, Enoch fell under disuse by the Catholic Church; and by the sixth or seventh century, it dropped from sight.
Not changing the subject, but the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Book of Enoch imply, that Michael is a man born here on earth, which does not agree with verse 9 of the Book of Jude.
In regards to Jude, verse 9, when did the Arch Angel Michael dispute with Satan, about the body of Moses? Scripture does not say, and no where else is it mentioned in Scripture. The Assumption of Moses, which is also called the Testament of Moses. See: (When Critics Ask) p.549 and the (Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties) p.430 for more info. Peter David's in (Hard Sayings of the Bible) p.754-756 says that we have most of the Assumption of Moses, except for the ending, which presumably contained that verse.
Origen did not use the book of Jude in his forming of the new testament, because of the insertion of verse nine.
It is my understanding that Origen did not use the Book of Jude because he thought it was a Gnostic writing.
Book of Jude verse 9. Yet Michael the ArchAngel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebukes thee.
Catholics refer to this verse and claim that it is quoting a non-canonical scripture called the Assumption of Moses, in an attempt to approve the principle of Sola Scriptura (The Bible only for doctrine). The logic for this I assume to be the following: If the Bible quotes from a non-canonical book, then the Bible is validating the authenticity of that book, as inspired by God to the same level as the Bible itself. Consequently, any doctrinal teaching in that book not taught by the Bible itself, must in any case be just as inspired as the Bible, thus validating the authority of Catholic Tradition. By this logic, Sola Scriptura is proposed, and the extra-biblical book is then assumed to be the “inspired word of God,” on the same level with the authority of Scripture. So what of this logic, and what proof is there that the Jude 9 quotes this non-canonical book? Well, it was claimed by early church writers- Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Didymus that Jude 9 is a quotation from the book, The Assumption of Moses, yet interestingly enough, there is apparently no surviving portion of that “pseudepigraphical” book containing the passage, that exists today from which to validate or even investigate that claim.
Lets try to stay on the subject of Enoch.
It should be noted that the early Christians considered the Book of Enoch to be scriptural, and that many of the early church leaders refered to that book. In the second and third century church leaders like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin and Clement of Alexandria all make use of the Book of Enoch. Tertullian (160-230 C.E.) even called the Book of Enoch 'Holy Scripture'. The Ethiopic Church even added the Book of Enoch to its official bible. It was widely known and read in the first three centuries after Christ.
The Book of Enoch, along with many other books became discredited after the Council of Laodicea. After being banned, it eventually went out of circulation from the majority of Christian communities. Supposedly, a renewed interest came about during the Protestant Reformation in the 15th century. There were rumors that a copy of the book was still in existance. It was not until the 18th century that an authentic text would be found, of whom the findings are credited to explorer James Bruce. After six years in Abyssinia, he discovered three Ethiopic copies of the book. In 1821 Richard Laurence published the first English translation. Later, an R.H. Charles edition was published in 1912. And in the Dead Sea Scrolls, seven fragmentary copies in Aramaic were discovered.
Biblically, we are first introduced to the person of Enoch in Gen. 5: 18-24. Paul writes concerning Enoch in the 11th chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews, starting in verse 5 which states, “By faith Enoch was taken up not to see death, and he was not found because God took him up.” But before taken up, he had given testimony that was pleasing toward God. (Heb. 11: 5. However Jude is the most famous (or to some, infamous) disciple who quoted directly from the Book of Enoch in the following pas
sage: “But also prophesied to these ones the seventh from Adam: Enoch, saying, 'Behold, came the Lord in the myriads of his holy ones, to make judgement against all and to convict every soul concerning all their ungodly works which they impiously did and concerning all the harsh things which ungodly sinners spoke against him.'” (Jude 1: 14-15).
I was not aware that the bible valadated the Book of Enoch a scripture.
Its my opinion that because verse 9 of Jude contradicts the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Book of Enoch and the other parts of the bible, it must have been inserted into the book of Jude.
[Chapter 40] Book of Enoch1 And after that I saw thousands of thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand, I saw a multitude 2 beyond number and reckoning, who stood before the Lord of Spirits. And on the four sides of the Lord of Spirits I saw four presences, [different from those that sleep not],(The difference between those that sleep not, is those that need sleep) and I learnt their names: for the angel that went with me made known to me their names, and showed me all the hidden things. 3 And I heard the voices of those four presences as they uttered praises before the Lord of glory. 4,5 The first voice blesses the Lord of Spirits for ever and ever. And the second voice I heard blessing 6 the Elect One and the elect ones who hang upon the Lord of Spirits. And the third voice I heard pray and intercede for those who dwell on the earth and supplicate in the name of the Lord of Spirits. 7 And I heard the fourth voice fending off the Satans and forbidding them to come before the Lord 8 of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth. After that I asked the angel of peace who went with me, who showed me everything that is hidden: 'Who are these four presences which I have 9 seen and whose words I have heard and written down?' And he said to me: 'This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.' 10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days…
Chapter 69 of Enoch.
This (angel) requested Michael to show him the hidden name, that he might enunciate it in the oath, so that those might quake before that name and oath who revealed all that was in secret to the children of men. And this is the power of this oath, for it is powerful and strong, and he placed this oath (Akae) in the hand of Michael. ( Akae ) is a authors note, it means, Also Known As Eagle.) It is not a word. See also bird of prey, or ravenous: Isaiah 46:11,13.16 And these are the secrets of this oath- – – – -. 26 And there was great joy amongst them,
And they blessed and glorified and extolled
Because the name of that Son of Man had been revealed unto them. He will send eternal succour to the company of His redeemed by the might of the princely angel ( the word angel is a interpretation of the words: messenger of God.) of the kingdom of Michael. With everlasting light( The word light is symbolic for truth ) He will enlighten with joy the children of Israel; ( The word Israel is also used symbolically to mean Christians. ) peace and blessing shall be with the company of God. He will raise up the kingdom of Michael in the midst of the gods, Note: See, John 10:34,36 and Psalm 82:6. and the realm of Israel in the midst of all flesh. Rightousness shall rejoice on high, and all the children of His truth shall jubilate in eternal knowledge. And you, the sons of His covenant, be strong in the ordeal of God! His mystries shall uphold you until He moves His hand for His trials to come to an end.
This parable sounds very boastful, so dont forget its a parable. Dead Sea Scrolls.
…a throne of strength in the congregation of gods so that not a single king of old shall sit on it, neither shall their noble men…. my glory is in comparable, and apart from me none is exalted. None shall come to me for I dwell in….in heaven, and there is no…. I am reckoned with the gods and my dwelling place is in the congregation of holiness. My desire is not according to the flesh, and all that I value is in the glory of……..the place of holiness. Whom do I count as despicable, and who is comparable to me in my glory? Who is …. the young? like me? Is there a companion who resembles me? I have…., and no instructions resembles my instructions…. Who shall attack me when I open my mouth? And who can deal with the issues of my lips? Who shall summon me to be destroyed by my judgements?…. for I am reckoned with the gods, and my glory is with the sons of the King. No pure gold or gold of Ophir….
Like I said this is a parable written about Michael.
This here is part of a thanksgiving hymn. Dead Sea Scrolls.
I know there is hope for him whom thou hast shaped from dust for the everlasting council. Thou hast cleansed a preverse spirit of great sin that it may stand with the host of the holy ones, and that it may enter into the community with the congregation of sons of heaven. Thou hast allotted to man an everlasting destiny amidst the spirits of knowledge, that he may praise Thy Name in a common rejoicing and recount Thy marvels before all Thy works. Fragment 2 and against….for the sake of Your Name….Michael with the elect…
Here are some additional scripture of uncertain order. Dead Sea Scrolls.
will be Holy Ones will remember…..lights will be revealed to him…..they will teach him everything that…..human wisdom,and every wise man…..in the lands?, and he shall be great…..mankind shall be shaken, and until…..he will reveal mysteries like the highest angels…..and with the understanding of the mysteries of…..and also…..in the dust……the mystery ascends….portions….from…..he did…..of which you are afraid for all…..his clothing at the end in your warehouses.? I will strenghten his goodness……and he will not die in the days of wickedness, and the wisdom of your mouth will go forth. He who opposes you will deserve death. One will write the words of God in a book that does not wear out, but My words you will adorn. At the time of the wicked, He will know you forever, a man of your servants…..
More fragments.
…..order. His eyes are dark and glowing. His ….. and it is…..His voice is gentle. His teeth are fine and well aligned. He is neither tall, nor short. And he……and his fingers are thin and long. And his thighs are smooth. And the soles of his feet….. And his toes are well aligned. His spirit consists of eight parts in the house of light, of the second column,and one in the house of darkness. And this is his birthday on which he is to be born……And his animal is……/ ….. of his hand, two…… it left a mark from….. barly and lentiles on….. and tiny marks on his thigh…..After two years he will be able to discern one thing from another…..In his youth he will be….. all of them….. like a man who does not know anything, until the time when he shall have come to know the three books. Then he will become wise and will be discrete…… a vision will come to him while upon his knees. And with his father and his forefathers….life and old age; he will acquire counsel and prudence, and he will know the secrets of mankind. His understanding will spread to all peoples, and he will know the secrets of all living things. All their plans against him will be fruitless, and the spiritual legacy for all the living be enriched. And all his plans will succeed, because he is the elect of God. His birth and the breath of his spirit……and his designs shall be for ever…..
This part here is from the book of Enoch.
But behold lambs were born by those white sheep, and they began to open their eyes and to see, and to cry to the sheep, yea, they cried to them, but they did not hearken to what they said to them, but were exceedin
gly deaf, and their eyes were very exceedingly blinded. And I saw in the vision how the ravens flew upon those lambs, and took one of those lambs, and dashed the sheep in pieces and devoured them. And I saw till horns grew upon those lambs, and the ravens cast down their horns; and I saw till there sprouted a great horn of one of those sheep, and their eyes were opened. And it looked at them [and their eyes opened], and it cried to the sheep, and the rams saw it and all ran to it. And notwithstanding all this those eagles and vultures and ravens and kites still kept tearing the sheep and swooping down upon them and devouring them: still the sheep remained silent, but the rams lamented and cried out. And those ravens fought and battled with it and sought to lay low its horn,( Horn means strength or kingdom. ) but they had no power over it.
This here is from the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The words of the book that Michael spoke to the angels of God after he had [[[ascended]]] to the highest heaven. He said “I found troops of fire ( Fire means judgement. ) there…… Behold, there were nine mountains, two to the east and two to the north and two to the west and two to the south.There I beheld Gabriel the angel…..I said to him, …….and you render the vision comprehensible. Then he said to me……It is written in my book that the Great One, the Eternal Lord…….. the sons of Ham to the sons of Shem. Now behold, the Great One, the Eternal Lord….. when…..tears from……Now behold, a city will be built for the name of the Great One, the Eternal Lord……and no evil shall be committed in the presence of the Great One, the Eternal Lord….. Then the Great One the Eternal Lord, will remember His creation for the purpose of good…….Blessing and honor and praise be to the Great One, the Eternal Lord. To Him belongs mercy and to Him belongs…..In distant territories there will be a man ………he is, and he will say to him, behold this…… to me silver and gold……..
Here are some scriptural links that are in relationship.
Isaiah 18:7. At that time gifts will be brought to the LORD Almighty from a people tall and smooth-skinned, ( Smooth Skinned means meek ) from a people feared far and wide, an aggressive nation of strange speech, whose land is divided by rivers, the gifts will be brought to Mount Zion, the place named for the LORD Almighty.
Zechariah 3:1. Then he showed me Joshua ( Joshua here means, Gods helper. ) the high priest standing before the Angel of the LORD, ( Jesus was the Angel of the Lord, until he was born into this world. ) and Satan ( Satan means, opposition. ) standing at his right side to accuse him.
2. The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?” ( Burning stick means, sinner. )
3. Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel.
4. The angel said to those who were standing before him, “Take off his filthy clothes.” Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you.”
5. Then I said, “Put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him, while the Angel of the LORD stood by.
6. The Angel of the LORD gave this charge to Joshua:
7. “This is what the LORD Almighty says: `If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here.
8. “`Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. ( “The Branch” is Jesus. )
9. See, the stone ( “The Stone” is Jesus. ) I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes ( The seven eyes are the seven stars; Stars mean, men. See Rev 1:20. )on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD Almighty, `and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.
10. “`In that day each of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and fig tree,' declares the LORD Almighty.”
Zechariah 4:1. Then the angel who talked with me returned and wakened me, as a man is wakened from his sleep.
2. He asked me, “What do you see?” I answered, “I see a solid gold lampstand with a bowl at the top and seven lights on it, with seven channels to the lights.
3. Also there are two olive trees ( The two olive trees, are the two witnesses. NIV. Isaiah 33:8. “The treaty is broken its witnesses are despised.” )by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left.”
4. I asked the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?”
5. He answered, “Do you not know what these are?” “No, my lord,” I replied.
6. So he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: ( Zerubbabel means, decendent of Babel; interpretation: person of unknown decent. ) `Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty.
7. “What are you, O mighty mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become level ground. Then he will bring out the capstone ( Capstone or Cornerstone is Jesus. )to shouts of `God bless it! God bless it!'”
8. Then the word of the LORD came to me:
9. “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. Then you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you.
10. “Who despises the day of small things? Men will rejoice when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. “(These seven are the eyes of the LORD, which range throughout the earth.)”
11. Then I asked the angel, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?”
12. Again I asked him, “What are these two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?”
13. He replied, “Do you not know what these are?” “No, my lord,” I said.
14. So he said, “These are the two who are anointed ( Rev 11:4. )to serve the Lord of all the earth.”
Isaiah 46:10 – 13. 10. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
11. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man ( Alaska is the farthest land to the east of Jerusalem.)to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.
12. Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted, you who are far from righteousness. ( See: Zec 3:2. )
13. I am bringing my righteousness near, it is not far away; and my salvation will not be delayed. I will grant salvation to Zion, ( See: Isaiah 52:8. ) my splendor to Israel. ( Isaiah 45:18.) Isaiah 56:8. , Ro 9:6. , Eph 2:12., 3:6.
Daniel 10:13 – 21.
13. But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. ( 21 days = 21 century. ) Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. ( Persia is Iran. )
14. Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”
15. While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless.
16. Then one who looked like a man touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, “I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, Jesus is called lord. See: Psalms 110:1, Mt 22:44 and Mk 12:29. ) and I am helpless.
17. How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe.”
18. Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength.
19. “Do not be afraid, O man highly esteemed,” he said. “Peace! Be strong now; be strong.” When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, “Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength.”
20. So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece ( Greece = Alexa
nder the Great and latter Rome. )will come;
21. but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. ( No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince. ) ( Alexander introduced Hellenism. And Rome also introduced paganism into christianity. )
Daniel 12 : 1. 1. “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.
Jude 1: 9. 9. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” NOTE: According to Origen the book of Jude is of Gnostic origin, unless he was only referring to verse 9 of Jude.
Revelation 12 : 7 – 9. 7. And there was war in heaven. ( Earth is also called heaven ) Michael and his angels ( Angels mean messengers of God ) fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels ( messengers of God ) fought back. ( There are two dragons; the dragon of the sea and the dragon of the earth. )
8. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. ( Heaven means, place. )
9. The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
This is proof that Michael is not another name title for Jesus. As with all parables a person must get a clue to who is who, and what is what, and be on gaurd for sudden changes with out warning. There are many words in the bible that have parabolic meaning; in some places the bible gives the interpretation to the parable or parabolic word being used; but not always. praying for a spirit of discernment is also helpful.
Would anyone else care to comment on the Book of Enoch or the Dead Sea Scrolls, in relationship to the bible?Hi,
Sorry but your path was too convoluted for me and asks me also to accept huge numbers of unproven claims which you also accused others of doing.So you place the dead sea scrolls ahead of the biblical book of Jude, and the book of Enoch in authenticity despite the fact it is piecemeal with huge parts missing? You say Enoch is a parable and suggest that means it was not written before Christ yet only part of it states that it is a parable and that bears no relationship to when it was written?
You say Michael is not an angel let alone an archangel? Why is he called the archangel? All angels are human messengers if you choose to interpret them that way? Smooth skinned means meek?Heaven means a place? Stars mean men? Jesus was the Angel of God ? The greek Jews [hellenistic ]killed Jesus? I thought the Pharisees were responsible and how could they be greek? Jesus was an Essene? Did he follow men then?
This boat will not float in my humble opinion.
Too many rationalisations and justifications of human glue and bits of bizarre string for me. I prefer the simple gospel rather than these strange teachings -are you from a denomination who espouses these ideas or are they your own?
Hi MichaelTheeArchAngel,
I realise that you are giving an overview of a discussion that took place on another Forum, so I am not sure what you believe regarding it. But thanks for posting anyway. I have no idea what to believe regarding it though, as there is no backup or reasonable path shown for the conclusions.
But the more I learn about the Book of Enoch the better so maybe something you have written might stickout later on in my investigations. Otherwise it is quite hard to follow, given that the same conversation hasn't taken place here.
But thanks for the input anyway and it may prove useful for me later.
Quote (MichaelTheeArchAngel @ Nov. 10 2004,17:58) Ill see about redoing this post at a later date. Prehaps it will make more sence then.
Perhaps not. A person wrote, quote: “I believe God's word is truth I don't look outside the word for it.” My reply is: Its wise to use caution, but Gods truth is not confined to any book. This statement does not mean that I believe truth is what ever you want to believe. God said, “come let us reason together.” So therfore we need to use reason. Does it agree with Gods word or not. I was talking to a christian one day, and I told him that the book of Enoch and the Dead Sea Scrolls say that Michael is a flesh and blood man. And I ask him what his thoughts were on that. His reply to me was that if it was true, he would feel sorry for that person, because he would be met with a great deal of oppossition. He went on to say that the Adventist and Jehoveh witnesses teach that Michael is another name title for Jesus; and that the other churches teach that Michael is from the Kingdom of heaven due to verse 9 of the book of Jude. So there you have it, three different versions to the truth, but yet, there can be only one truth.Welcome Michael,
I am interested to find where Micheal is a man in Enoch.I did not read that there???Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 19 2004,20:22) Welcome Michael,
I am interested to find where Micheal is a man in Enoch.I did not read that there???
In Enoch 40:2. It says ” different from those that sleep not” The people in the Kingdom of Heaven do not need rest. However those 4 do need rest which means that they are human. Also the Dead Sea Scrolls says Michael (ascends) to heaven and returns to tell the others. You need to remember the word angel is not a translation but a interpretation. The words ( messenger and messenger of God ) are interpreted to read as (angel). Also Michael learns of a place to be built here on earth. The place is called ( Mount Zion ). Its also called (the congregation of Mount Zion). The word (Armeggeddon) is also a interpretation for Mt of the congregation Zion. Armeggeddon is not even a real word. NO BULL.Hi Michael,
Yes the word angel means messenger as in human messengers. But it also means angel who are messengers of God. The word cannot be confused with archangel though and Michael is an archangel as you know from Jude etc. And of course if angels are those who “sleep not” then archangels are different to them so that makes sense.They are more powerful, have more authority and responsibility and as sons of God have access to the Father.[Jb 1-2]Michael can I confirm that you saying that Michael the archangel is a man?
If so I offer you the following scripture, but I am sure that you must have read it multiple times. So how do you see this verse if you indeed believe that Michael is a man?
Revelation 12:7
And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.Quite so t8,
And though there is no place such as Armageddon there is one called Megiddo and that is thought to be what is meant by the term.The word heaven means (place). Revelation 12:7. Retranslated. And there was war in heaven (EARTH). Michael and his messengers of God fought againt the dragon, and the dragon, and his messengers of God fought back. According to the Bible, Dead Sea Scrolls and the book of Enoch Michael is a man. Verse 9 of Jude is a corruption of text.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 22 2004,07:49) To MichaelTheeArchAngel, Happy Birthday!
Thanks for the birthdays wishes. Hey , I was born on Thanksgiving day that make me a turkey baby. Or at least once every 7 years. HA, ha, ha.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 21 2004,18:03) Hi,
Enoch 24.6 identifies Michael as an angel.
The question here would be is it past, present or future. If Michael has 4 wings on earth and 6 in heaven, and if the words serephim and cherebim are parables and not translated then what? Something to think about.Hi ,mtaa,
Heaven means place? But earth is a place too.
We know God lives in Heaven and Earth is his footstool. God does not reside on earth but in heaven. Likewise angels reside in heaven.
These facts are known from the bible.
To rewrite the bible is to deny truth. To deny these facts is to deny the Glory of the Father as creator and the glory of the Son of God as instrument of creation and to deny the Holy Spirit as you deny his work of inspiration in writing of the bible.
Heaven and earth are different places and are seen separately in the Word. They have different roles and purposes.Where did Elijah and Enoch go when they were taken away. Were they not really taken away but stayed on earth?
They are also seen together in the same sentence many times. When the words appear together they are differentiated in the Word.
eg.Ps 103, Is 65. 17, Mt 6.10, Mk 13.31, Jas 5.12, Rev 20.11,Rev 21.1
So earth cannot be heaven and heaven cannot be earth. And even if the terms were equivalent then why use them in the same sentence as that would be superfluous surely?Hi mtaa,
Yes food for thought but I would prefer something solid to chew on rather than what you have offered us so far.
So
Where does it say Michael has 4 wings,or 6?
What is your evidence that beings described this way are Michael?
What is your scriptural evidence that seraphim or cherubim are parables?
What constitutes a parable in your definition?
Are the 4 living creatures by the throne angels,or archangels or seraphim or cherubim?Why not call everything a parable?
The earth is a planet.
The heavens is the universe that surrounds earth.
In the Heavens there are different levels.
The highest heaven is where Christ rules God's creation.Deuteronomy 10:14
To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.Job 22:12
“Is not God in the heights of heaven? And see how lofty are the highest stars!Psalm 115:16
The highest heavens belong to the LORD , but the earth he has given to man.2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know–God knows.Daniel 6:27
He rescues and he saves; he performs signs and wonders in the heavens and on the earth.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 22 2004,23:36) Hi mtaa,
Yes food for thought but I would prefer something solid to chew on rather than what you have offered us so far.
So
Where does it say Michael has 4 wings,or 6?
What is your evidence that beings described this way are Michael?
What is your scriptural evidence that seraphim or cherubim are parables?
What constitutes a parable in your definition?
Are the 4 living creatures by the throne angels,or archangels or seraphim or cherubim?
Why not call everything a parable?
In your bible look up (4 four wings and 6 six wings). Also look up cherubim or cherub and serephim or sereph.Quote (Guest @ Nov. 23 2004,23:07) wrote:
Everything is not a parable, but there are a multitude of words used parabolically in the bible. When studying the bible a person needs to always be watchful for parabolic applications. It also help to pray for a spirit of discernment.
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