Bodhitharta vs t8

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 26 2009,08:24)

Yes these rae saying two different things. One is saying that God is putting the enemies of Christ under his feet and telling Christ to sit on His right hand. Paul is saying that Christ is putting the enemies under his feet and then will return the kingdom to God. These are two opposing things although he attempts to reconcile these opposing ideas by saying “it is clear that this does not include God himself”

Without reading your post any further and checking out the verses you are talking about; on the outset, I can't see what your reasoning for saying that these are irreconcilable.

If God tells me to preach the gospel and he will give me strength and power to do so, then saying that God is bringing good news to people or that I am bringing good news to people are both true because it is a team effort. Remember the verse that says, “God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself”.

From what I can tell, Jesus did what he did, but he did it because it was what the Father willed. (Not my will but yours). So why is this confusing or a contradiction?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 26 2009,08:24)

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. Matthew 6:12-14

I disagree.

If you see that the kingdom is God's and that there is sin in the world, then you might understand that God is using Christ to redeem the world back to him.

Satan knows that God and sin cannot mix. So God uses Christ to deal to that sin, and once that is all done, he hands the kingdom over to God so that he can be in all.

It is simply a redemptive process and takes nothing away that God will be in all and that it is handed to him when it is ready for him to dwell in it fully.

Is it not written that Christ was sent to destroy the works of the evil one. What are those works and what is the fruit. Christ is redeeming things back to God.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 26 2009,08:24)

Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. Daniel 2:36-38 Now this was not about Jesus but you can see the commonality in the verses.

The commonality appears to be that they are both kings and even kings of kings.

Surely such a description can fit a number of subjects.

The king or queen of England at the height of the British Empire could be described as a king of kings. Each country had a leader and the leader was subject to the leader of Britain.

I think you are reading too much into it because you desire to find fault. If you desire something enough, God can send a delusion or allow you to believe a delusion.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 19 2009,11:30)

I have made this challenge to T8 because he has decided to take the position that God is in a box and cannot act outside that box which T8 calls Christianity. I hope he accepts the debate there will be no rules other than to not make personal attacks.

OK, going back to what this is suppose to be about. I have said that it is not Christianity that is the truth of God, but that Christ is.

So is there any more reason to keep this debate open?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 02 2010,18:08)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 19 2009,11:30) I have made this challenge to T8 because he has decided to take the position that God is in a box and cannot act outside that box which T8 calls Christianity. I hope he accepts the debate there will be no rules other than to not make personal attacks. OK, going back to what this is suppose to be about. I have said that it is not Christianity that is the truth of God, but that Christ is. So is there any more reason to keep this debate open?

God is beyond christianity and those who have never even heard of Christ can still be saved by God that was the O.P.

As far as God not being able to deal with sin, your not making sense and before Jesus was sent who do you think was dealing with Sin?

Also, if God says to Jesus sit at my right hand whille “I” place your enemies under your feet, how do you understand that to mean Jesus can take over the Kingdom , defeat Sin and then return the Kingdom to God?

Is Jesus stronger than God?

The KINGDOM of God is SOVEREIGN

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 02 2010,18:01)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 26 2009,08:24) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. Matthew 6:12-14 I disagree. If you see that the kingdom is God's and that there is sin in the world, then you might understand that God is using Christ to redeem the world back to him. Satan knows that God and sin cannot mix. So God uses Christ to deal to that sin, and once that is all done, he hands the kingdom over to God so that he can be in all. It is simply a redemptive process and takes nothing away that God will be in all and that it is handed to him when it is ready for him to dwell in it fully. Is it not written that Christ was sent to destroy the works of the evil one. What are those works and what is the fruit. Christ is redeeming things back to God.

Why do people keep saying that God cannot look upon sin?

Job 33:26-28 (King James Version)

26He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.

27He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;

28He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.

Do you see that God looks upon those who sin and if they confess their sins God is quick to save them. There is no mention of religous affiliation here, is there?

You are correct this debate is about to end because what I am saying cannot be refuted.

Was the Good samaritan a Christian or a Jew?

yet Jesus gave him much praise for his actions and said this was indeed “Your Neighbor”

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2010,05:32)

God is beyond christianity and those who have never even heard of Christ can still be saved by God that was the O.P. As far as God not being able to deal with sin, your not making sense and before Jesus was sent who do you think was dealing with Sin?

Do you not think that God knew that he was going to send his son and therefore as the lamb of God, he would take away the sin of the world. To say that God could only work with men after the sacrifice of the messiah is limiting. Christ is “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” and so it is that all can be saved through him.

If anyone was to be justified before God in OT times, their sins must be atoned for. If this is not true, then Jesus sacrifice was not necessary. God did not send His Son as one of several options, but because there was no other way

“Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin”.

OT sacrifices were only an interim sacrifice, a shadow of things to come, until the mystery of God was revealed, Jesus Christ. Our resurrection is dependent on Christ and so it is with people who lived in previous millenniums, including the prophets. By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2010,05:32)

Also, if God says to Jesus sit at my right hand whille “I” place your enemies under your feet, how do you understand that to mean Jesus can take over the Kingdom , defeat Sin and then return the Kingdom to God? Is Jesus stronger than God?

I explained this in an earlier post.

God is the Most High. He has allowed sin as an option for those who choose NOT him. He allows sin to express itself for a season perhaps to demonstrate the effects of sin for the great cloud of witnesses.

So God sent his son to do his bidding. The son obeyed. The son said “remove this cup from me, but not my will but yours”. The son as the lamb of God defeated sin and now all can be saved. When all has been dealt with, Christ will  redeem or destroy until the point that no evil/sin remains. Then God who is perfect and the only source of good will be able to dwell in all things.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but God works through men and angels. He worked through Abraham, Moses, Gabriel, Michael, and Jesus Christ.

If you cannot understand this good news BD, then maybe what Paul said is applicable here:

1 Corinthians 1:18-31
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
  “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
     the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

I am sure that even you can understand that God works through his servants. It's not like God just does everything himself while we all just watch. This obvious truth takes nothing away from the sovereignty of God. If it is his will then it doesn't destroy his sovereignty.

Do not even earthly kings give mandates and orders? Do earthly kings do everything themselves? Did George Bush go to Iraq and capture Saddam himself? Does the British Prime Minister rule England exclusively with no subjects to do his bidding?

Why are you debating something that is really obvious?

If sovereignty of God means that he does all things himself and through no one, then that point alone, rules out your prophet from being legitimate, according to what you believe.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2010,05:32)

Is Jesus stronger than God?

No.

He is obedient to God's will and he is his servant and the one that God made both lord and Christ.

Therefore how you treat him is how you treat God, because God has chosen to represent himself through him.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2010,09:01)

Why do people keep saying that God cannot look upon sin?

God can see all even what the wicked do.

What is meant by this is clearly stated in Habakkuk 1:13

13 Your eyes are too pure to look on evil;
you cannot tolerate wrong.

In other words God cannot approve of sin. He cannot let it slide. He cannot tolerate it, therefore he judges it.

If God was completely ignorant of sin, then we could pretend that we have never sinned.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 04 2010,15:28)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2010,05:32) God is beyond christianity and those who have never even heard of Christ can still be saved by God that was the O.P. As far as God not being able to deal with sin, your not making sense and before Jesus was sent who do you think was dealing with Sin? Do you not think that God knew that he was going to send his son and therefore as the lamb of God, he would take away the sin of the world. To say that God could only work with men after the sacrifice of the messiah is limiting. Christ is “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” and so it is that all can be saved through him. If anyone was to be justified before God in OT times, their sins must be atoned for. If this is not true, then Jesus sacrifice was not necessary. God did not send His Son as one of several options, but because there was no other way “Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin”. OT sacrifices were only an interim sacrifice, a shadow of things to come, until the mystery of God was revealed, Jesus Christ. Our resurrection is dependent on Christ and so it is with people who lived in previous millenniums, including the prophets. By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.

Confession is the remission of sin

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Leviticus 16:20-22

If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Leviticus 26:39-41

I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
Psalm 32:4-6

He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Proverbs 28:12-14

And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;
Daniel 9:19-21

Jesus was baptized so since he did not sin who was he baptized for? The sin of the People

And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Matthew 3:5-7

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-10

If confession doesn't take away sins how are sins forgiven today? Is Christ crucified over and over?

[Proclaimer]

Confession and repentance would not be possible if there was no redemptive plan.

Jesus died for our sins so that we may confess and repent of our sins.

It is written that he died so that we MIGHT be saved.

and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that are perishing; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And when Jesus was baptised, he received the Holy Spirit. He was the first of many to be baptised and to receive the Spirit. He was our example to follow.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 04 2010,19:37)

Confession and repentance would not be possible if there was no redemptive plan. Jesus died for our sins so that we may confess and repent of our sins. It is written that he died so that we MIGHT be saved. and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that are perishing; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And when Jesus was baptised, he received the Holy Spirit. He was the first of many to be baptised and to receive the Spirit. He was our example to follow. Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Your starting to worry me T8, please tell me you know that people had the Holy Spirit long before Jesus was ever born.

Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Psalm 51:10-12

How do you think prophets prophesied without the Spirit of God upon them/dwelling in them

Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
Isaiah 63:10-12

Now here is a very good question for you, do you suppose those that had the Spirit of God within them at death needed “atonement”?

You should not confuse the disciples receiving the Holy Spirit for the first time with others before that God had bestowed this blessing opon.

25And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

Luke 2 (King James Version)

26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

27And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

28Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

Now you have the truth. Jesus did not come to save those who were righteous but those who were lost.

The LOST sheep, not the 99 but the 1 that has been forgotten or mislead.

Now you have the Truth

[Proclaimer]

It's quite simple BD, there is no need to worry.

Those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God.

Not all are led by the Spirit of course. But, Jesus invites us to be.

“Be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” This can be for anyone as Peter testified.

Unlike prophets of old who had to make sacrifices, in order to enter the holy of holies or the presence of God, we can have that presence forever without any sacrifice made because Jesus as the lamb of God became the sacrifice.

The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean only. It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. But Jesus did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

Notice the words 'eternal redemption'. This means that all can be saved. It is and was up to each person of course.

Jesus is the lamb of God. The one who takes away the sins of the world.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 04 2010,22:52)

It's quite simple BD, there is no need to worry. Those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God. Not all are led by the Spirit of course. But, Jesus invites us to be. “Be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” This can be for anyone as Peter testified. Unlike prophets of old who had to make sacrifices, in order to enter the holy of holies or the presence of God, we can have that presence forever without any sacrifice made because Jesus as the lamb of God became the sacrifice. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean only.  It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. But Jesus did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. Notice the words 'eternal redemption'. This means that all can be saved. It is and was up to each person of course. Jesus is the lamb of God. The one who takes away the sins of the world.

I agree that Jesus is the lamb of God that “takes away” sins he is the Scapegoat

And yes “he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.”

But the Blood is the life thereof and the blood of Jesus is a living Sacrifice just as the scapegoat was so what blood that was shed on the cross could not be presented Alive before GOD hence there are two goats One that is killed and the other that the sins are placed on and presented ALIVE before God. The scapegoat is set FREE.

When you sin today is Jesus a living sacrifice, if he has already resurrected how can he take on sin?

[Proclaimer]

His sacrifice allowed eternal redemption. Therefore he died once for all. When we sin, we have a covenant with God.

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,

Romans 8:1
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 05 2010,13:38)

His sacrifice allowed eternal redemption. Therefore he died once for all. When we sin, we have a covenant with God. Matthew 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

“The sins commited under the first covenant”

Were you ever under the first covenant? Of course not.

[bodhitharta]

T8,

Very important for you to understand is that this debate is not about the validity of your beliefs
I concede that you believe in much of what I believe, the problem is I accept you and you do not accept me
therefore I am your neighbor but you resist being mine.

I said God is beyond Christianity and so is Christ, he approved of the Good Samaritan but you would tell that samaritan that if he wasn't Christian he is going to hell, Jesus disagrees and so do I.

At some point I hope, so will you:(

God requested from the beginning that we must not let sin dominate us but it is we that should dominate all things being a vicegerant to God we all come from two souls which came from one which came from God, you are my flesh and blood and yet you think somehow we have different gods when that would be impossible because ONLY ONE GOD MADE ONE MAN and FROM ONE MAN MADE ONE WOMAN i.e. a Man with a WOMB.

There is no other religion than to SUBMIT to GOD in PEACE and there is no other god but THE GOD i.e. THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD.

Let you and I disagree where we must but let us not be polytheistic in the matter, we believe different things about God but we both know that there cannot be more than One God. We both acknowledge that God has confused the understanding of men as far back as the tower of babel so the wisest of the wise know that we have been divided in vanity and we unite through humility.

[Proclaimer]

The main problems I see are as follows:

1) You reject the truth that Jesus is the son of the living God. You must reject this as this rejection is taught in the Koran. However, this truth is the foundation of the Church. It is what Jesus built his Church on. Here is why this belief is condemned.

1 John 2:22
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

1 John 2:23
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

It is Satan who places doubt regarding the truth that Jesus is the son of God.

Matthew 4:3
The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

It is one thing to believe that Jesus is not the son of the living God, and it is quite another to teach it.

What does scripture say about false teachers?

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

2) The other thing I have against you is as follows: by definition of your prophets teaching, you must deny the gospel. You must deny the plan of God, that he sent his son into the world to die for humanity and was raised in in triumphant glory according to God's plan. You deny that his death completed the heralded beginning of the end to the works of Satan. This you must deny as your prophet teaches that he wasn't meant to die and because he did, God had to send another to finish the work.

John 4:34
34 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

John 19:30
When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Hebrews 9:1-9
1 Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand, the table and the consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.
6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper.

Hebrews 9:22
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Colossians 1:19-20
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

So BD, by reason of who you follow, you must categorically deny these things. You deny that Jesus is the son of the Most High God and you deny that Jesus is the lamb of God. And by your confession you must believe the Koran which states:

“They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mary. They declared: 'We have put to death the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the apostle of Allah.' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.”

“Christ, the Son of Mary, was no more than an apostle.”

“Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth split asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one!”

Instead a believer believes the following:

“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water; and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him. And, lo, a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 07 2010,09:02)

The main problems I see are as follows: 1) You reject the truth that Jesus is the son of the living God. You must reject this as this rejection is taught in the Koran. However, this truth is the foundation of the Church. It is what Jesus built his Church on. Here is why this belief is condemned. 1 John 2:22 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. It is Satan who places doubt regarding the truth that Jesus is the son of God. Matthew 4:3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” It is one thing to believe that Jesus is not the son of the living God, and it is quite another to teach it. What does scripture say about false teachers? 2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2) The other thing I have against you is as follows: by definition of your prophets teaching, you must deny the gospel. You must deny the plan of God, that he sent his son into the world to die for humanity and was raised in in triumphant glory according to God's plan. You deny that his death completed the heralded beginning of the end to the works of Satan. This you must deny as your prophet teaches that he wasn't meant to die and because he did, God had to send another to finish the work. John 4:34 34 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. Hebrews 9:1-9 1 Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand, the table and the consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Colossians 1:19-20 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. So BD, by reason of who you follow, you must categorically deny these things. You deny that Jesus is the son of the Most High God and you deny that Jesus is the lamb of God. And by your confession you must believe the Koran which states: “They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mary. They declared: 'We have put to death the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the apostle of Allah.' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.” “Christ, the Son of Mary, was no more than an apostle.” “Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth split asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one!” Instead a believer believes the following: “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water; and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him. And, lo, a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

T8,

The problem you are having with this is not really necessary as the scripture simply calls those anointed His children.

Notice it says:

1 John 2:22
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

Muslims do not deny that Jesus is The Christ so it does not apply. But just to explain it clearly to you, look:

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Exodus 4:21-23

Now God calls the whole Nation of Israel His son and not only that, His firstborn son! Why? because they are/were His anointed nation. Whoever is anointed in the language of that culture is called “Son”

But No Muslim denies Jesus is THE CHRIST

I have to ask you have the works of Satan ceased? If it hasn't then you are asking someone to believe that 2000 years didn't make a dent on satanic activity if that was the plan of God.

You also say that this was the plan of God from the foundation of the world and Jesus knew of this plan since the beginning and suddenly had a change of heart and begged God to save him from death then after he agrees to do the will of God and not his own will that he then on the cross forgot that he agreed and accused God of forsaking him?

As far as God sending another, Don't you believe He sent Paul?

I have shown you that ISRAEL is the FIRSTBORN of GOD so how is it Jesus is the Only Begotten SON?

Can you reconcile those verses? Which one is wrong?

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