Bodhitharta vs t8

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December 23, 2009 at 3:08 am#166075

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 23 2009,14:00)

God CREATED man in his image.

God didn't create Christ in his image.

Christ is the image of the invisible God. He is the fullness of deity in bodily form.
We are not THE image and we are not the fullness. Each of us reflect in part.

This is why he is the bridegroom and the Church is his bride.

So God was never alone? You believe Jesus has always been with God?

So if Jesus is THE image without being created how could God be the original if Jesus is not some sort of copy?

December 23, 2009 at 3:54 am#166082

Proclaimer

Participant

God is the source of all, even his son.
The son had glory with God before the world began.

So it stands to reason that he is the oldest being besides God who has always existed.

The son existed in the form of God and God made the universe through him and for him.

God sent his son into the world. This was the ultimate price paid for our redemption.

December 23, 2009 at 5:47 am#166096

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 23 2009,14:54)

God is the source of all, even his son.
The son had glory with God before the world began.

So it stands to reason that he is the oldest being besides God who has always existed.

The son existed in the form of God and God made the universe through him and for him.

God sent his son into the world. This was the ultimate price paid for our redemption.

So if God was alone at some point then wouldn't that mean God created him?

December 23, 2009 at 7:03 am#166106

Proclaimer

Participant

No, because creation is defined as that being made by God through Christ. Obviously Christ didn't come into existence in that way. He wasn't made through himself because that would mean that he had to exist before his existence.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Christ is unique. He is the only one who wasn't created. He is the prototype.

This was the high price that God paid for our redemption. He sent his son into the world to die for us.
Not just any old person, but his only begotten.

December 23, 2009 at 6:41 pm#166153

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 23 2009,18:03)

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Christ is unique. He is the only one who wasn't created. He is the prototype.

This was the high price that God paid for our redemption. He sent his son into the world to die for us.
Not just any old person, but his only begotten.

There is a great flaw in this type of thinking, do you really suppose that God did not create or get anything else done for the 33 years that Jesus was on earth?

Also causing Christ to create is the same thing as creating Christ unless you are now making Christ “God”

What you don't seem to understand is that you take allegory as actuality and what I mean by that is you believe that the word of God was a being that was with God instead of the expression of God.

Just like when you speak but your speech or expression is not another being, is it? But when Mary was sent the word of God and Jesus was conceived by the Word of God, God speaking Christ Jesus into existence and this is what is meant because as you must know God created with “Let, there be…”

Adam was formed from the earth by God and then made a living Soul, Jesus was formed by the Word of God in Mary and became flesh.

All Human beings were begotten from the first formation and Jesus was literally “BE” gotten formed from the expression of God and in this way Jesus was born of body of a virgin.

Jesus had no identity before being born into earth as is clear in scripture.

in both cases a man was formed from virgin earth and hence he is called the second Adam. Adam was not born of Body, Jesus was born of Body and this is what is mean by only begotten son.

December 23, 2009 at 10:34 pm#166190

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 24 2009,05:41)

There is a great flaw in this type of thinking, do you really suppose that God did not create or get anything else done for the 33 years that Jesus was on earth?

What did he need to create?
The earth has processes that do not need recreation and I am sure that God and heaven were focussed on his life here on earth. After all it was his only begotten son who came here and God made all things through him and for him.

December 23, 2009 at 10:36 pm#166191

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 24 2009,05:41)

Also causing Christ to create is the same thing as creating Christ unless you are now making Christ “God”

Not sure what you mean here, but suffice to say that Christ is unique. He wasn't created like us. He didn't come from God through himself. He came directly from God.

That is why God is the head of Christ. Likewise the woman came from the man and the man is the head of the woman.

December 23, 2009 at 10:38 pm#166192

Proclaimer

Participant

Your idea about allegory is also a convenient excuse by many to change that which they cannot accommodate.

With the same argument a person could say that God is an allegory about how the world came into existence. In fact I think that is what some Atheists say.

December 23, 2009 at 10:56 pm#166198

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 24 2009,09:34)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 24 2009,05:41)

There is a great flaw in this type of thinking, do you really suppose that God did not create or get anything else done for the 33 years that Jesus was on earth?

So Jesus is God to you? He created you?

How were the angels created? and do you insist that God did not create anything?

Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
Psalm 148:4-6

So it is your position that God was saying “In the name of Jesus” I create?

Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
Isaiah 43:6-8

You don't believe these scriptures, T8?

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD(Jehovah); and there is none else.
Isaiah 45:17-19

What! You don't believe what God himself says?

Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
Malachi 2:9-11

Everyone who claims God as a Father was created but you have gone astray making God's creation the creator.

Revelation 4:10-11 (King James Version)

10The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

I think you misunderstand many of the verses where you get that Jesus is The Creator

December 23, 2009 at 11:05 pm#166204

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 24 2009,09:56)

So Jesus is God to you? He created you?

No BD.

He is my head.

Just as the man is the head of the woman, Christ is my head and God is my creator. It's quite simple to understand.

December 23, 2009 at 11:09 pm#166205

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 24 2009,09:56)

How were the angels created? and do you insist that God did not create anything?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Romans 16:26
but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him

John 5:23
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

December 23, 2009 at 11:11 pm#166206

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 24 2009,10:05)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 24 2009,09:56)

So Jesus is God to you? He created you?

No BD.

He is my head.

Just as the man is the head of the woman, Christ is my head and God is my creator. It's quite simple to understand.

I have no problem with those statements:

Now, why is it you believe that God cannot save anyone he wants for any reason he wants?

December 23, 2009 at 11:15 pm#166208

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 24 2009,10:09)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 24 2009,09:56)

How were the angels created? and do you insist that God did not create anything?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Romans 16:26
but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him

John 5:23
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 1:2-7 (King James Version)

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Didn't you say that God Made all things?

If you say God made all things through Jesus then John 1:3 must be talking about GOD and not Jesus but you assumed it was about Jesus because of the lack of capitalization.

December 23, 2009 at 11:20 pm#166211

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 24 2009,10:11)

I have no problem with those statements:

Now, why is it you believe that God cannot save anyone he wants for any reason he wants?

Because God and sin cannot be one. God cannot dwell in a sinful creature.

Sin must be dealth with first.
The soul that sins will die.
God does not go against his own word, rather he fulfills it because God is not a liar.

Perhaps the Devil thought that he could be victorious over God this way. He only needed to corrupt God's creation and then God couldn't have it and he could then claim it. But the devil was defeated by a wisdom which none of the rulers of this age understood. God can redeem those who were once in sin. He paid the ultimate price however. He sent his son into the world that whoever believes on him will not perish but have everlasting life.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

December 23, 2009 at 11:51 pm#166213

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 24 2009,10:20)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 24 2009,10:11)

I have no problem with those statements:

Now, why is it you believe that God cannot save anyone he wants for any reason he wants?

Because God and sin cannot be one. God cannot dwell in a sinful creature.

Sin must be dealth with first.
The soul that sins will die.
God does not go against his own word, rather he fulfills it because God is not a liar.

why does the Bible say this?

For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mark 12:35-37

Psalm 110:1-3 (Young's Literal Translation)

Psalm 110
1 A Psalm of David. The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord: `Sit at My right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.'

Why does Paul seem to disagree with these verses?

December 25, 2009 at 9:29 am#166416

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 24 2009,10:15)

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 24 2009,10:09)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 24 2009,09:56)

How were the angels created? and do you insist that God did not create anything?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Romans 16:26
but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him

John 5:23
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 1:2-7 (King James Version)

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Didn't you say that God Made all things?

If you say God made all things through Jesus then John 1:3 must be talking about GOD and not Jesus but you assumed it was about Jesus because of the lack of capitalization.

For the sake of keeping it simple, look at the following verse, as it clearly states that all things were made through Christ. This demonstrating that indeed scripture teaches that God made all things through Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Now to confirm in the scriptures that Jesus is indeed the head under the authority of God, please read the following:

Ephesians 1:10
to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

Ephesians 4:15
Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

So let's face it BD. Before creation, there was God. God had to do something as his first work. And of all the beings besides God, (in heaven and under heaven), there must be one who pre-dates all the others. Who is that? Mohammed? Jesus? or who?

Now to confirm that God works through Christ for all things, the next verse reminds us that in all things God may be praised though Jesus Christ. If we are to praise God through Jesus Christ, then it doesn't really seem surprising when you understand that God made all things through Jesus Christ. There is a recurring pattern with God doing things through Jesus and God being praised through Jesus. This is what this website is about. Praising God and serving him through Jesus Christ our lord. God sent him into the world that whoever shall believe upon him will not perish but obtain everlasting life.

1 Peter 4:11
If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ.

December 25, 2009 at 9:32 am#166417

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 24 2009,10:51)

why does the Bible say this?

For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mark 12:35-37

Psalm 110:1-3 (Young's Literal Translation)

Psalm 110
1 A Psalm of David. The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord: `Sit at My right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.'

Why does Paul seem to disagree with these verses?

I am not following you on this one. How does Paul disagree with David? Are you talking about there being one lord?

December 25, 2009 at 9:24 pm#166461

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 25 2009,20:32)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 24 2009,10:51)

why does the Bible say this?

For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mark 12:35-37

Psalm 110:1-3 (Young's Literal Translation)

Psalm 110
1 A Psalm of David. The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord: `Sit at My right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.'

Why does Paul seem to disagree with these verses?

I am not following you on this one. How does Paul disagree with David? Are you talking about there being one lord?

Yes these rae saying two different things. One is saying that God is putting the enemies of Christ under his feet and telling Christ to sit on His right hand.

Paul is saying that Christ is putting the enemies under his feet and then will return the kingdom to God.

These are two opposing things although he attempts to reconcile these opposing ideas by saying “it is clear that this does not include God himself”

The fact is when Paul says that Christ will “hand over the Kingdom” It contradicts Christ directly when Christ states:

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Matthew 6:12-14

Paul often gets his information grom the Old Testament and somehow seems to twist it whether or not on purpose, I don't know.

But see how this concept that Paul bestows on Jesus was already present in the Old Testament

Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
Daniel 2:36-38

Now this was not about Jesus but you can see the commonality in the verses.

I understand how you connect these things but you misunderstand that these statements about Jesus are not unique to Jesus. This is why their was a need for the Quran to be sent down to clarify what was written.

Tell me was the King that daniel was speaking of really the King of Kings? You believe that Christ is right? so either the scripture is wrong or you misunderstand them.

Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.
Ezra 7:11-13

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.
Ezekiel 26:6-8

Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1 Timothy 6:14-16

I strongly understand and believe your position in these matters but you should consider that if you don't pick and choose you will come out with some rather odd conclusions you would be forced to accept.

December 30, 2009 at 4:12 pm#167196