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Hi Bod,
The “satisfaction theory of atonement” did not seem to be taught until the 11th century.
More can be read here:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_influence_theory_of_atonement(I hope that link works, it is the auto mobile link. If it does not, then google “moral influence theory of atonement wikipedia”).
Quote (2besee @ Aug. 30 2013,00:51) I will get to the rest of your post soon. Quote Then it must be the good news that Islam preaches because Christianity and the Gospel has been already preached to all of the nations exhaustively. No! the Quran does NOT bring “good news”. The Quran teaches of an angry God, who punishes people for eternity in hot fire, and continually roasted bodies which are in pain and torture, etc.
The God of the Bible is love.
Quote Also, all the predictions Jesus made “according to the scriptures” did not come to pass such as: Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Of course this did not happen but Jesus did not and does not know when he will return…..
Interesting!
Actually, something that I have been thinking about, for a while now. “Amillenial partial Preterism”, perhaps?I do not have the answers yet.
Quote (2besee @ Aug. 30 2013,10:35) Quote (2besee @ Aug. 30 2013,00:51) I will get to the rest of your post soon. Quote Then it must be the good news that Islam preaches because Christianity and the Gospel has been already preached to all of the nations exhaustively. No! the Quran does NOT bring “good news”. The Quran teaches of an angry God, who punishes people for eternity in hot fire, and continually roasted bodies which are in pain and torture, etc.
The God of the Bible is love.
Quote Also, all the predictions Jesus made “according to the scriptures” did not come to pass such as: Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Of course this did not happen but Jesus did not and does not know when he will return…..
Interesting!
Actually, something that I have been thinking about, for a while now. “Amillenial partial Preterism”, perhaps?I do not have the answers yet.
Actually in the Quran God isconstantly spoken of as Most Gracious and Most Merciful, Oft-ForgivingIt was one of the best parts about reading it, it was a constant reminder of how much God loves what he created and is willing to forgive and improve the situation for any of those who are sincere. His Mercy, Compassion, Grace and Love is almost noted in each Paragraph.
So Allah gave them the reward of this world and the good reward of the Hereafter. And Allah loves the doers of good.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #148)
And do not argue on behalf of those who deceive themselves. Indeed, Allah loves not one who is a habitually sinful deceiver.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #107)
Really?
Qurans eternal hell. (From using the Quran's keyword search),
Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. ( , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #56)
If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him. ( , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #93)
They (his dupes) will have their dwelling in hell, and from it they will find no way of escape. ( , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #121)
Except the way of hell, to dwell therein for ever. And this to Allah is easy. ( , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #169)
On the Day when heat will be produced out of that (wealth) in the fire of hell, and with it will be branded their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, their flanks, and their backs.- “This is the (treasure) which ye buried for yourselves: taste ye, then, the (treasures) ye buried!” ( , At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #35)
Allah hath promised the Hypocrites men and women, and the rejecters, of Faith, the fire of hell: Therein shall they dwell: Sufficient is it for them: for them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment,-( , At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #68)
In front of such a one is hell, and he is given, for drink, boiling fetid water. ( , Ibrahim, Chapter #14, Verse #16)
If any do wish for the transitory things (of this life), We readily grant them – such things as We will, to such person as We will: in the end have We provided hell for them: they will burn therein, disgraced and rejected. ( , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #18)
It is he whom Allah guides, that is on true Guidance; but he whom He leaves astray – for such wilt thou find no protector besides Him. On the Day of Judgment We shall gather, them together, prone on their faces, blind, dumb, and deaf: their abode will be hell: every time it shows abatement, We shall increase from them the fierceness of the Fire. ( , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #97)
But those who reject (Allah) – for them will be the Fire of hell: No term shall be determined for them, so they should die, nor shall its Penalty be lightened for them. Thus do We reward every ungrateful one! Therein will they cry aloud (for assistance): “Our Lord! Bring us out: we shall work righteousness, not the (deeds) we used to do!” – “Did We not give you long enough life so that he that would should receive admonition? and (moreover) the warner came to you. So taste ye (the fruits of your deeds): for the wrong-doers there is no helper.” ( , Fatir, Chapter #35, Verse #36-37)
Those in the Fire will say to the Keepers of hell: “Pray to your Lord to lighten us the Penalty for a day (at least)!” ( , Ghafir, Chapter #40, Verse #49)
Those who reject the Book and the (revelations) with which We sent our messengers: but soon shall they know,- When the yokes (shall be) round their necks, and the chains; they shall be dragged along – In the boiling fetid fluid: then in the Fire shall they be burned; And burning in hell-Fire. ( , Ghafir, Chapter #40, Verse #71-72)
“Unless I proclaim what I receive from Allah and His Messages: for any that disobey Allah and His Messenger,- for them is hell: they shall dwell therein for ever.” ( , Al-Jinn, Chapter #72, Verse #23)
Quote (2besee @ Aug. 30 2013,16:33) Really? Qurans eternal hell. (From using the Quran's keyword search),
Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. ( , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #56)
If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him. ( , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #93)
They (his dupes) will have their dwelling in hell, and from it they will find no way of escape. ( , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #121)
Except the way of hell, to dwell therein for ever. And this to Allah is easy. ( , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #169)
On the Day when heat will be produced out of that (wealth) in the fire of hell, and with it will be branded their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, their flanks, and their backs.- “This is the (treasure) which ye buried for yourselves: taste ye, then, the (treasures) ye buried!” ( , At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #35)
Allah hath promised the Hypocrites men and women, and the rejecters, of Faith, the fire of hell: Therein shall they dwell: Sufficient is it for them: for them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment,-( , At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #68)
In front of such a one is hell, and he is given, for drink, boiling fetid water. ( , Ibrahim, Chapter #14, Verse #16)
If any do wish for the transitory things (of this life), We readily grant them – such things as We will, to such person as We will: in the end have We provided hell for them: they will burn therein, disgraced and rejected. ( , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #18)
It is he whom Allah guides, that is on true Guidance; but he whom He leaves astray – for such wilt thou find no protector besides Him. On the Day of Judgment We shall gather, them together, prone on their faces, blind, dumb, and deaf: their abode will be hell: every time it shows abatement, We shall increase from them the fierceness of the Fire. ( , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #97)
But those who reject (Allah) – for them will be the Fire of hell: No term shall be determined for them, so they should die, nor shall its Penalty be lightened for them. Thus do We reward every ungrateful one! Therein will they cry aloud (for assistance): “Our Lord! Bring us out: we shall work righteousness, not the (deeds) we used to do!” – “Did We not give you long enough life so that he that would should receive admonition? and (moreover) the warner came to you. So taste ye (the fruits of your deeds): for the wrong-doers there is no helper.” ( , Fatir, Chapter #35, Verse #36-37)
Those in the Fire will say to the Keepers of hell: “Pray to your Lord to lighten us the Penalty for a day (at least)!” ( , Ghafir, Chapter #40, Verse #49)
Those who reject the Book and the (revelations) with which We sent our messengers: but soon shall they know,- When the yokes (shall be) round their necks, and the chains; they shall be dragged along – In the boiling fetid fluid: then in the Fire shall they be burned; And burning in hell-Fire. ( , Ghafir, Chapter #40, Verse #71-72)
“Unless I proclaim what I receive from Allah and His Messages: for any that disobey Allah and His Messenger,- for them is hell: they shall dwell therein for ever.” ( , Al-Jinn, Chapter #72, Verse #23)
Oh, I see you don't believe in hell?Mark 9:44
where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.Bod, “where the worm dieth not”, not the person.
Jesus said:
“Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.“Bod,
The true God is love, there is no fear in love. God is our Father, and though he lets us go for now to do what we should do, he at any moment could gather us under his wings to safety.
The God of Islam is not love because there is a certain fear, because those who do not comply will go to hell where people are tortured unimaginably, and when you look at the recent chemical bombs in Syria, and the innocent children crying out, do you not think that the God of love, Yahweh, does not want to gather them to him?Of course he does, and many he will.
Time for you to change, Bod.
I will leave you to either continue to go around in circles, or return to the true spirit, the eternal spirit, the spirit of the heart.
Take care Bod.
Pray.Quote (2besee @ Aug. 31 2013,20:22) Bod, The true God is love, there is no fear in love. God is our Father, and though he lets us go for now to do what we should do, he at any moment could gather us under his wings to safety.
The God of Islam is not love because there is a certain fear, because those who do not comply will go to hell where people are tortured unimaginably, and when you look at the recent chemical bombs in Syria, and the innocent children crying out, do you not think that the God of love, Yahweh, does not want to gather them to him?Of course he does, and many he will.
Time for you to change, Bod.
I will leave you to either continue to go around in circles, or return to the true spirit, the eternal spirit, the spirit of the heart.
Take care Bod.
Pray.Quote Jesus said:
“Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”Why is it in your Quote Jesusis saying “Fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” You didn't catch that when you wrote it?
Also what about this:
Luke 16:23
and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.Why is Jesus using this example of Hell?
Also you seem to not understand fear either:
Job 28:28
And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.Psalm 111:10
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.Isaiah 33:6
And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, and strength of salvation: the fear of the Lord is his treasure.You see the point is not to be afraid of God in the sense of being afraid of a wild animal, the point is to be afraid of not having the discipline and Love to carry out the work of God.
Once you understand the fear of God only then can you truly experience the love of God in the way I do.
And also is it your logic that Good=Evil or are they the same thing? Should the evil be rewarded with Paradise?
You seem to not believe that there should be consequences for actions.
Hi Bod,
I will leave you with some verses, but there are plenty more.
Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.'
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
John 10:28 “And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish ; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.”
James 5:20 'Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death'.
Rev. 20:14 “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death , the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
Matthew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
For those amongst christianity and for muslims who believe in and worship a sadistic God who will torment human beings forever and ever, you need to ask yourself why you would even consider worshiping such a sadistic God.
Would your worship not be out of an unhealthy fear and for selfish reasons, with no genuine love of God and neighbor, which is the summary of the entire law?
Who would be behind such a lie?
Who said in the beginning that men would not die if they disobeyed?
God is love, and there is not that type of fear in love!
1 John 4:16-20 We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.
In this love has been made perfect among us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as he is, even so are we in this world.
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He who fears is not made perfect in love.
We love him, because he first loved us.
If a man says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who doesn't love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God who he has not seen.Healthy fear of God, I believe, is a fear of being separated from God.
Psalms 51:11 (David pleading with God after sinning) “Don't throw me from your presence, and don't take your holy Spirit from me.”
And also fearing God who said that revenge is his, and fearing God who can destroy the body and soul in hell.
Anyway, it has been really nice talking to you, Bod.
Might talk to you again some day
Bless you!
Quote (2besee @ Sep. 01 2013,14:32) Hi Bod, I will leave you with some verses, but there are plenty more.
Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.'
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
John 10:28 “And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish ; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.”
James 5:20 'Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death'.
Rev. 20:14 “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death , the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
Matthew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
For those amongst christianity and for muslims who believe in and worship a sadistic God who will torment human beings forever and ever, you need to ask yourself why you would even consider worshiping such a sadistic God.
Would your worship not be out of an unhealthy fear and for selfish reasons, with no genuine love of God and neighbor, which is the summary of the entire law?
Who would be behind such a lie?
Who said in the beginning that men would not die if they disobeyed?
God is love, and there is not that type of fear in love!
1 John 4:16-20 We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.
In this love has been made perfect among us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as he is, even so are we in this world.
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He who fears is not made perfect in love.
We love him, because he first loved us.
If a man says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who doesn't love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God who he has not seen.Healthy fear of God, I believe, is a fear of being separated from God.
Psalms 51:11 (David pleading with God after sinning) “Don't throw me from your presence, and don't take your holy Spirit from me.”
And also fearing God who said that revenge is his, and fearing God who can destroy the body and soul in hell.
Anyway, it has been really nice talking to you, Bod.
Might talk to you again some day
Bless you!
Yu din't answer my question of why Jesu spoke of hell as a place of Torment and why he described it in hi story of Lazarus and Abraham.Also many Christians believe that Jesus spent time in hell during th 3 days because of this verse:
1 Peter 3:18-19
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Now, if these spirits were in prison obviously they were in torment so how do you see it that there is no suffering?
Bod,
God is just. YES, there may be some place of temporary and just punishment. But, eternity is either life or death.
I have shown you the scriptures for that.
Another of the most obvious verses is this..
2 Peter
3:7 But the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
3:8 But don't forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
Could you please comment on that.
Is the wages of sin death, and if so, then what does “death” mean to you?
Bod,
Posting Bible verses to you won't help you, because you do not BELIEVE in the Bible – though you say that you do, you don't.If your believed in the Bible, then you would believe in ALL that it says repeatedly, about the crucifixion and death of Jesus etc, but you do not.
Bod, This is an excellent site I think from memory, and I think it is adventist, though I could be wrong. Please do some research.
Bod, I tried to find you some good videos explaining what I am saying, but didn't find much. Instead I found something unrelated, which I thought was quite good, (they are only short).
Hope you like them!
The first video is a shortened version of a sermon made to youth.
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Quote (2besee @ Sep. 02 2013,16:07) Bod, God is just. YES, there may be some place of temporary and just punishment. But, eternity is either life or death.
I have shown you the scriptures for that.
Another of the most obvious verses is this..
2 Peter
3:7 But the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
3:8 But don't forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
Could you please comment on that.
Is the wages of sin death, and if so, then what does “death” mean to you?
Death seems to be a state of disembodiment since the resurrection to life is a physical phenomenon.This would only apply to those who were given a certain body to begin with.
Quote (2besee @ Sep. 02 2013,16:27) Bod,
Posting Bible verses to you won't help you, because you do not BELIEVE in the Bible – though you say that you do, you don't.If your believed in the Bible, then you would believe in ALL that it says repeatedly, about the crucifixion and death of Jesus etc, but you do not.
No I actually do believe what is written in the Bible as authentic. I would have to believe it was authentiaclly written to understand why the Quran revealed unknown information.If I didn't believe the Bible I would not have believed what the Quran had said in it.
Quote (2besee @ Sep. 04 2013,09:16) Hi Bod, I'll have to get back to you in about a week, my data is getting low.
Understood.
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