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Quote (2besee @ Aug. 25 2013,15:10) Good Bod good. So, what is the Holy Spirit? (Let's have an open mind, and not follow the doctrines of men).
Btw, It's nice taking to you like this.
You too
Quote (2besee @ Aug. 25 2013,15:11) Bod, no. They both say different things.
That wouldn't make them not from the same source the new testament also has differences. in-fact there are differences both within the Old testament and the New Testamentfor example within the Old Testament there are no/little dietary laws with Noah and then there are dfferent/several dietary laws afterwards with Moses.
The New Testament has preaching to the gentiles prohibited with Jesus and then almost exclusively preached to with Paul
So when something else is revealed it doesn't make the previous thing wrong or the new thing wrong because it is a revelation (Something previously unknown or in some cases covered up).
Say ye: “We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam).”
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #136)
Bod,
I disagree.Matthew 16
Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare′a Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?”
And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli′jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona!For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.Man revealed Jesus to be a prophet.
God in Heaven revealed Jesus to be the Son of God.Who is right, then?
God in Heaven, or a man, many years later?Quote (2besee @ Aug. 26 2013,10:53) Bod,
I disagree.Matthew 16
Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare′a Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?”
And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli′jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona!For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.Man revealed Jesus to be a prophet.
God in Heaven revealed Jesus to be the Son of God.Who is right, then?
God in Heaven, or a man, many years later?
Jesus is The Christ there is no disagreement at all, just because he added “son of the living God” does not mean that was the main point although as I said calling someone son of God was common if you look not only son of God but son of David, children of Abraham….etc so theonly unique Quality about the statement was calling Jesus “The Christ” becauseyou do not see people being called “Christ” arbitrarily.But the term “son of God” is pervasive, angelsare called sons of God, Adam is called son of God and Jesus tells all hisfollowers to call God “Father” making them all sons and daughters of God. So the key reference is simon calling him “Christ”
Bod,
Jesus is the first begotten from among mankind. He was the only sinless man.
He was also, the only (first) begotten from the dead. He was crucified and dead for three days and nights, and then he was risen. He was unique in his risen state, according to scriptures. So, being taken up and being at God's right side, he is the only begotten Son of God, and he is our Lord.
Those who look to him as Lord, hear his voice. They do not know or understand any other voice but his.
You have gone after another voice that is, Muhammad.All that I can do is answer any questions you have, the best that I can, and hope and pray that you too will hear the voice of the Lord and the calling of God.
I believe that you have a good heart.
You could do well with your knowledge of scriptures and the Quran, in these soon to come difficult times, in witnessing to Muslims on the soon to come eternal kingdom of God!
Quote (2besee @ Aug. 26 2013,20:15) Bod, Jesus is the first begotten from among mankind. He was the only sinless man.
He was also, the only (first) begotten from the dead. He was crucified and dead for three days and nights, and then he was risen. He was unique in his risen state, according to scriptures. So, being taken up and being at God's right side, he is the only begotten Son of God, and he is our Lord.
Those who look to him as Lord, hear his voice. They do not know or understand any other voice but his.
You have gone after another voice that is, Muhammad.All that I can do is answer any questions you have, the best that I can, and hope and pray that you too will hear the voice of the Lord and the calling of God.
I believe that you have a good heart.
You could do well with your knowledge of scriptures and the Quran, in these soon to come difficult times.
The fact is you have already invested yourself in your belief, the question is can you ever be objective?The Quran states:
157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157-#158)
Now I was a Christian when I read that an immediately was at first shocked and afraid of what I was reading and then I rejoiced as GOD had guided me to this and what great news that the Messiah was Saved by God, then God opened up my eyes to the biblical scriptures to show me it was right.
Now I understand that you must believe that God SACRIFICED his “Son” but if that was the case Judas didn't betray Christ and Christ would have not said it was not his will “Not My Will” why would Christ not be willing if it was a plan? Also God hates human sacrifice he calls it an abomination. Further who would God be offering Jesus up to? Himself? God doesn't need sacrifices and He also doesn't need blood for atonement. So Praise God! Jesus was raised up to God ALIVE and he has been ALIVE ever since
Quote
The Quran states:157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
( , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157-#158)
This tells me, that the Jews who thought they killed him, did not actually kill him for eternity, because, he was risen from the dead, to Heaven, and his voice has lived on. Who else in history, has made such an impact on humanity as Jesus Christ, the man from Nazareth?
“They killed him not”, because, Jesus said:
“I am the resurrection.
Anyone who believes in me, even though that person dies, will live.
And whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Yes, said Martha.
Hi Bod.
As for the atonement question:
The atonement is explained in Hebrews.
Jesus offered his life once and for all.
Jesus conquered death, and he that had power over death, that is, the Devil (Hebrews 2:14).
He went down to the spirits in prison, and witnessed to them (1 Peter 3:19) and many of the dead were raised.
Jesus became the eternal, supreme, compassionate, heavenly high priest, the source of eternal salvation, and the mediator of a new and greater covenant, which was sealed in his own blood.That my friend is my understanding
Quote (2besee @ Aug. 26 2013,21:08) Quote
The Quran states:157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
( , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157-#158)
This tells me, that the Jews who thought they killed him, did not actually kill him for eternity, because, he was risen from the dead, to Heaven, and his voice has lived on. Who else in history, has made such an impact on humanity as Jesus Christ, the man from Nazareth?
“They killed him not”, because, Jesus said:
“I am the resurrection.
Anyone who believes in me, even though that person dies, will live.
And whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Yes, said Martha.
The Quran states:157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
God saved Jesus but “seeing they did not perceive and hearing they didn't understand”
Quote (2besee @ Aug. 27 2013,09:57) Hi Bod. As for the atonement question:
The atonement is explained in Hebrews.
Jesus offered his life once and for all.
Jesus conquered death, and he that had power over death, that is, the Devil (Hebrews 2:14).
He went down to the spirits in prison, and witnessed to them (1 Peter 3:19) and many of the dead were raised.
Jesus became the eternal, supreme, compassionate, heavenly high priest, the source of eternal salvation, and the mediator of a new and greater covenant, which was sealed in his own blood.That my friend is my understanding
Where is it that Jesus “Offered” his life? He actually asked God to save him from the plot to murder him and directly said it was “NOT” his will.You can objectively agree that what was going on was a Murder plot complete with betrayal so how is it you can then see that as an offering or a sacrifice? Jesus said clearly:
Matthew 12:7
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.There is nothing noble or good about condemning the guiltless and God hates the shedding of innocent blood
Hosea 6:6
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.Psalm 106:38
and shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.and further even if God did accept human as a sacrifice he would never take the firstborn:
Numbers 18:15
Every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh, which they bring unto the Lord, whether it be of men or beasts, shall be thine: nevertheless the firstborn of man shalt thou surely redeem, and the firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem.Being that Jesus was born of a virgin he would have been redeemed from sacrifice in any way
Bod,
So you choose to believe, what? three little lines in the Quran, which could mean anything, when I will show you..this.I will begin with the Old Testament prophesies of the Son of God, Messiah and what was to happen.
Psalms 2
1
Why do the nations rage, and the peoples plot a vain thing?
2
The kings of the earth take a stand, and the rulers take counsel together, against Yahweh, and against his Anointed, saying,
3
“Let's break their bonds apart, and cast their cords from us.”
4
He who sits in the heavens will laugh. The Lord will have them in derision.
5
Then he will speak to them in his anger, and terrify them in his wrath:
6
“Yet I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion.”
7
I will tell of the decree. Yahweh said to me, “You are my son. Today I have become your father.
8
Ask of me, and I will give the nations for your inheritance, the uttermost parts of the earth for your possession.
9
You shall break them with a rod of iron. You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”
10
Now therefore be wise, you kings. Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11
Serve Yahweh with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12
Give sincere homage to the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath will soon be kindled. Blessed are all those who take refuge in him.
Psalms 22
1
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning?
2
My God, I cry in the daytime, but you don't answer; in the night season, and am not silent.
3
But you are holy, you who inhabit the praises of Israel.
4
Our fathers trusted in you. They trusted, and you delivered them.
5
They cried to you, and were delivered. They trusted in you, and were not disappointed.
6
But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7
All those who see me mock me. They insult me with their lips. They shake their heads, saying,
8
“He trusts in Yahweh; let him deliver him. Let him rescue him, since he delights in him.”
9
But you brought me out of the womb. You made me trust at my mother's breasts.
10
I was thrown on you from my mother's womb. You are my God since my mother bore me.
11
Don't be far from me, for trouble is near. For there is none to help.
12
Many bulls have surrounded me. Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13
They open their mouths wide against me, lions tearing prey and roaring.
14
I am poured out like water. All my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax; it is melted within me.
15
My strength is dried up like a potsherd. My tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth. You have brought me into the dust of death.
16
For dogs have surrounded me. A company of evildoers have enclosed me. They have pierced my hands and feet.
17
I can count all of my bones. They look and stare at me.
18
They divide my garments among them. They cast lots for my clothing.
19
But don't be far off, Yahweh. You are my help: hurry to help me.
20
Deliver my soul from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog.
21
Save me from the lion's mouth! Yes, from the horns of the wild oxen, you have answered me.
22
I will declare your name to my brothers. In the midst of the assembly, I will praise you.
23
You who fear Yahweh, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, glorify him! Stand in awe of him, all you descendants of Israel!
24
For he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, Neither has he hidden his face from him; but when he cried to him, he heard.
25
Of you comes my praise in the great assembly. I will pay my vows before those who fear him.
26
The humble shall eat and be satisfied. They shall praise Yahweh who seek after him. Let your hearts live forever.
27
All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to Yahweh. All the relatives of the nations shall worship before you.
28
For the kingdom is Yahweh's. He is the ruler over the nations.
29
All the rich ones of the earth shall eat and worship. All those who go down to the dust shall bow before him, even he who can't keep his soul alive.
30
Posterity shall serve him. Future generations shall be told about the Lord.
31
They shall come and shall declare his righteousness to a people that shall be born, for he has done it.
Isaiah 53
1
Who has believed our message? To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?
2
For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no good looks or majesty. When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3
He was despised, and rejected by men; a man of suffering, and acquainted with disease. He was despised as one from whom men hide their face; and we didn't respect him.
4
Surely he has borne our sickness, and carried our suffering; yet we considered him plagued, struck by God, and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The punishment that brought our peace was on him; and by his wounds we are healed.
6
All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7
He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he didn't open his mouth. As a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is mute, so he didn't open his mouth.
8
He was taken away by oppression and judgment; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living and stricken for the disobedience of my people?
9
They made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10
Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him. He has caused him to suffer. When you make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed. He shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Yahweh shall prosper in his hand.
11
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light and be satisfied. My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself; and he will bear their iniquities.
12
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
……
I will post the New Testament words next, so please give me a day or two.
Quote (2besee @ Aug. 28 2013,09:26) Bod,
So you choose to believe, what? three little lines in the Quran, which could mean anything, when I will show you..this.I will begin with the Old Testament prophesies of the Son of God, Messiah and what was to happen.
Psalms 2
1
Why do the nations rage, and the peoples plot a vain thing?
2
The kings of the earth take a stand, and the rulers take counsel together, against Yahweh, and against his Anointed, saying,
3
“Let's break their bonds apart, and cast their cords from us.”
4
He who sits in the heavens will laugh. The Lord will have them in derision.
5
Then he will speak to them in his anger, and terrify them in his wrath:
6
“Yet I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion.”
7
I will tell of the decree. Yahweh said to me, “You are my son. Today I have become your father.
8
Ask of me, and I will give the nations for your inheritance, the uttermost parts of the earth for your possession.
9
You shall break them with a rod of iron. You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”
10
Now therefore be wise, you kings. Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11
Serve Yahweh with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12
Give sincere homage to the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath will soon be kindled. Blessed are all those who take refuge in him.
Psalms 22
1
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning?
2
My God, I cry in the daytime, but you don't answer; in the night season, and am not silent.
3
But you are holy, you who inhabit the praises of Israel.
4
Our fathers trusted in you. They trusted, and you delivered them.
5
They cried to you, and were delivered. They trusted in you, and were not disappointed.
6
But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7
All those who see me mock me. They insult me with their lips. They shake their heads, saying,
8
“He trusts in Yahweh; let him deliver him. Let him rescue him, since he delights in him.”
9
But you brought me out of the womb. You made me trust at my mother's breasts.
10
I was thrown on you from my mother's womb. You are my God since my mother bore me.
11
Don't be far from me, for trouble is near. For there is none to help.
12
Many bulls have surrounded me. Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13
They open their mouths wide against me, lions tearing prey and roaring.
14
I am poured out like water. All my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax; it is melted within me.
15
My strength is dried up like a potsherd. My tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth. You have brought me into the dust of death.
16
For dogs have surrounded me. A company of evildoers have enclosed me. They have pierced my hands and feet.
17
I can count all of my bones. They look and stare at me.
18
They divide my garments among them. They cast lots for my clothing.
19
But don't be far off, Yahweh. You are my help: hurry to help me.
20
Deliver my soul from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog.
21
Save me from the lion's mouth! Yes, from the horns of the wild oxen, you have answered me.
22
I will declare your name to my brothers. In the midst of the assembly, I will praise you.
23
You who fear Yahweh, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, glorify him! Stand in awe of him, all you descendants of Israel!
24
For he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, Neither has he hidden his face from him; but when he cried to him, he heard.
25
Of you comes my praise in the great assembly. I will pay my vows before those who fear him.
26
The humble shall eat and be satisfied. They shall praise Yahweh who seek after him. Let your hearts live forever.
27
All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to Yahweh. All the relatives of the nations shall worship before you.
28
For the kingdom is Yahweh's. He is the ruler over the nations.
29
All the rich ones of the earth shall eat and worship. All those who go down to the dust shall bow before him, even he who can't keep his soul alive.
30
Posterity shall serve him. Future generations shall be told about the Lord.
31
They shall come and shall declare his righteousness to a people that shall be born, for he has done it.
Isaiah 53
1
Who has believed our message? To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?
2
For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no good looks or majesty. When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3
He was despised, and rejected by men; a man of suffering, and acquainted with disease. He was despised as one from whom men hide their face; and we didn't respect him.
4
Surely he has borne our sickness, and carried our suffering; yet we considered him plagued, struck by God, and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The punishment that brought our peace was on him; and by his wounds we are healed.
6
All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7
He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he didn't open his mouth. As a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is mute, so he didn't open his mouth.
8
He was taken away by oppression and judgment; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living and stricken for the disobedience of my people?
9
They made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10
Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him. He has caused him to suffer. When you make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed. He shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Yahweh shall prosper in his hand.
11
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light and be satisfied. My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself; and he will bear their iniquities.
12
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
……
I will post the New Testament words next, so please give me a day or two.
Yes those are the traditional views but when your mind and eyes have been opened by God a brand new picture formsPsalm 91
1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. [a]2 I will say of the LORD, “He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”
3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare and from the de
adly pestilence.4 He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
5 You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day,
6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.
8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.
9 If you make the Most High your dwelling— even the LORD, who is my refuge-
10 then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent.
11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;
12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.
13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent.
14 “Because he loves me,” says the LORD, “I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation.”
(If Jesus died on the cross and got buried, then his feet would've struck the ground and the stones on it from bringing him down, throwing him on the floor and burying him).
Isaiah 53:12
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
12 Therefore I give a portion to him among the many, And with the mighty he apportioneth spoil, Because that he exposed to death his soul, And with transgressors he was numbered, And he the sin of many hath borne, And for transgressors he intercedeth.
This does not indicate that he died.
Also It is my belief he made intercession by being Baptized t most important of all is the fact that Jesus said that his work was finish before they even arrested him:
John 17:4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to doHow could saying that be even possible if his sole purpose was to be crucified/killed?
He was prepared and willing to be crucified if that was the will of God but God saved Him
8.Hebrews 5:7
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;Hi Bod,
This is a long post, most of it is scripture.
It took me hours, because, I went through scripture myself (read Matthew), and only have a phone, lol.
So excuse the length.Okay,
Bod,
You cannot take a few isolated verses , taken out of context, as if looking for some 'hidden meaning' to something that was written multiple times in the new testament, and the old – something which is right in front of you……. as if it is not true. Otherwise, then, you are having “The eyes that do not see”, and “The ears that do not hear” – as you said.
Now, Jesus said that the good news of the coming kingdom will be given, as a witness to all of the nations, and then the end would come.
It is said that at the evidence of two or three witnesses, a truth is established.
Of course, they have to be reliable and truthful witnesses.
Now, we know that Jesus is truth, and he spoke the truth.
He prophesied of his own death , (as you will see below), and also there were witnesses to what exactly happened, the main one being the book of John (Lazarus).
Then we have the gospel of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. So, there is the fulfillment of prophecy – the witnessing to the nations to truth, taken through the world, as a witness.
And then, we have the spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, which leads us into all truth, and teaches us if we 'just stick with what we are being shown'.Now, let me continue on with the scriptures. (I will use Matthew).
Remember, all you have is a few lines in a future book, written by somebody who was NOT a witness, saying that Jesus was not crucified.
The only way that you can accept those few lines in the future book as truth is to call the scriptures not truth.
Is that a wise thing to do? NO!You are a baptized Christian (you have that advantage over many here). You turned your back, but the door is still open I believe for you.
Now, forget about false Christians, forget about the false prophets, forget the false witnesses, forget the lukewarm church, and focus on Just Truth.Jesus' first prophesy of his own death.
Matthew 16
21
From that time, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised up.
22
Peter took him aside, and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! This will never be done to you.”
23
But he turned, and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men.”
24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, and whoever will lose his life for my sake will find it.
Jesus' second prophecy of his own death.
Matthew 17
22
While they were staying in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is about to be delivered up into the hands of men,
23
and they will kill him, and the third day he will be raised up.” They were exceedingly sorry.
Third prophecy.
Matthew 20
17
As Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside, and on the way he said to them,
18
“Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death,
19
and will hand him over to the Gentiles to mock, to scourge, and to crucify; and the third day he will be raised up.”
Fourth prophecy.
Matthew 21
37
But afterward he sent to them his son, saying, 'They will respect my son.'
38
But the farmers, when they saw the son, said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him, and seize his inheritance.'
39
So they took him, and threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him.
Fifth prophecy.
Matthew 26
1
It happened, when Jesus had finished all these words, that he said to his disciples,
2
“You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified.”
6
Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,
7
a woman came to him having an alabaster jar of very expensive ointment, and she poured it on his head as he sat at the table.
8
But when his disciples saw this, they were indignant, saying, “Why this waste?
9
For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.”
10
However, knowing this, Jesus said to them, “Why do you trouble the woman? Because she has done a good work for me.
11
For you always have the poor with you; but you don't always have me.
12
For in pouring this ointment on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial.
23
He answered, “He who dipped his hand with me in the dish, the same will betray me.
26
As they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks for it, and broke it. He gave to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.”
27
He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, “All of you drink it,
28
for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission of sins.
Fulfillment of the Jesus' own prophecy,.and that of the old testament.
Matthew 26
59
Now the chief priests, the elders, and the whole council sought false testimony against Jesus, that they might put him to death,
60
and they found none. Even though many false witnesses came forward, they found none. But at last two false witnesses came forward,
61
and said, “This man said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.'”
62
The high priest stood up, and said to him, “Have you no answer? What is this that these testify against you?”
63 But Jesus held his peace. The high priest answered him, “I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64
Jesus said to him, “You have said it. Nevertheless, I tell you, after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of the sky.”
65
Then the high priest tore his clothing, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Behold, now you have heard his blasphemy.
66
What do you think?” They answered, “He is worthy of death!”
67
Then they spit in his face and beat him with their fists, and some slapped him,
68
saying, “Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who hit you?”
20
Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the multitudes to ask for Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.
22
Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do to Jesus, who is called Christ?” They all said to him, “Let him be crucified!”
23
But the governor said, “Why? What evil has he done?” But they cried out exceedingly, saying, “Let him be crucified!”
24
So when Pilate saw that nothing was being gained, but rather that a disturbance was starting, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this righteous person. You see to it.”
25
All the people answered, “May his blood be on us, and on
our children!”26
Then he released to them Barabbas, but Jesus he flogged and delivered to be crucified.
28
They stripped him, and put a scarlet robe on him.
29
They braided a crown of thorns and put it on his head, and a reed in his right hand; and they kneeled down before him, and mocked him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!”
30
They spat on him, and took the reed and struck him on the head.
31
When they had mocked him, they took the robe off of him, and put his clothes on him, and led him away to crucify him.
34
They gave him sour wine to drink mixed with gall. When he had tasted it, he would not drink.
35
When they had crucified him, they divided his clothing among them, casting lots,
38
Then there were two robbers crucified with him, one on his right hand and one on the left.
39
Those who passed by blasphemed him, wagging their heads,
40
and saying, “You who destroy the temple, and build it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross!”
41
Likewise the chief priests also mocking, with the scribes, the Pharisees, and the elders, said,
42
“He saved others, but he can't save himself. If he is the King of Israel, let him come down from the cross now, and we will believe in him.
43
He trusts in God. Let God deliver him now, if he wants him; for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'”
44
The robbers also who were crucified with him cast on him the same reproach.
46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani?” That is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
50
Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit.
51
Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split.
52
The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53
and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.
54
Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God.”
Jesus' body was taken down, wrapped in a shroud, put in the tomb, and a large stone was rolled across the entrance. The chief priests and pharisees mounted a guard to keep the tomb secure, and sealed the stone. But then, an angel came down, and moved the stone, and the guards were frightened as dead men. The angels saw the woman, and spoke to them, telling them that although Jesus was crucified and dead, he had been risen, and now, he is going before you to Galilee.
Of course, the conspirators lied and tried to say that the disciples had come and stolen the body away.Quote (2besee @ Aug. 28 2013,21:49) Hi Bod, This is a long post, most of it is scripture.
It took me hours, because, I went through scripture myself (read Matthew), and only have a phone, lol.
So excuse the length.Okay,
Bod,
You cannot take a few isolated verses , taken out of context, as if looking for some 'hidden meaning' to something that was written multiple times in the new testament, and the old – something which is right in front of you……. as if it is not true. Otherwise, then, you are having “The eyes that do not see”, and “The ears that do not hear” – as you said.
Now, Jesus said that the good news of the coming kingdom will be given, as a witness to all of the nations, and then the end would come.
It is said that at the evidence of two or three witnesses, a truth is established.
Of course, they have to be reliable and truthful witnesses.
Now, we know that Jesus is truth, and he spoke the truth.
He prophesied of his own death , (as you will see below), and also there were witnesses to what exactly happened, the main one being the book of John (Lazarus).
Then we have the gospel of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. So, there is the fulfillment of prophecy – the witnessing to the nations to truth, taken through the world, as a witness.
And then, we have the spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, which leads us into all truth, and teaches us if we 'just stick with what we are being shown'.Now, let me continue on with the scriptures. (I will use Matthew).
Remember, all you have is a few lines in a future book, written by somebody who was NOT a witness, saying that Jesus was not crucified.
The only way that you can accept those few lines in the future book as truth is to call the scriptures not truth.
Is that a wise thing to do? NO!You are a baptized Christian (you have that advantage over many here). You turned your back, but the door is still open I believe for you.
Now, forget about false Christians, forget about the false prophets, forget the false witnesses, forget the lukewarm church, and focus on Just Truth.Jesus' first prophesy of his own death.
Matthew 16
21
From that time, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised up.
22
Peter took him aside, and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! This will never be done to you.”
23
But he turned, and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men.”
24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, and whoever will lose his life for my sake will find it.
Jesus' second prophecy of his own death.
Matthew 17
22
While they were staying in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is about to be delivered up into the hands of men,
23
and they will kill him, and the third day he will be raised up.” They were exceedingly sorry.
Third prophecy.
Matthew 20
17
As Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside, and on the way he said to them,
18
“Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death,
19
and will hand him over to the Gentiles to mock, to scourge, and to crucify; and the third day he will be raised up.”
Fourth prophecy.
Matthew 21
37
But afterward he sent to them his son, saying, 'They will respect my son.'
38
But the farmers, when they saw the son, said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him, and seize his inheritance.'
39
So they took him, and threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him.
Fifth prophecy.
Matthew 26
1
It happened, when Jesus had finished all these words, that he said to his disciples,
2
“You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified.”
6
Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,
7
a woman came to him having an alabaster jar of very expensive ointment, and she poured it on his head as he sat at the table.
8
But when his disciples saw this, they were indignant, saying, “Why this waste?
9
For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.”
10
However, knowing this, Jesus said to them, “Why do you trouble the woman? Because she has done a good work for me.
11
For you always have the poor with you; but you don't always have me.
12
For in pouring this ointment on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial.
23
He answered, “He who dipped his hand with me in the dish, the same will betray me.
26
As they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks for it, and broke it. He gave to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.”
27
He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, “All of you drink it,
28
for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission of sins.
Fulfillment of the Jesus' own prophecy,.and that of the old testament.
Matthew 26
59
Now the chief priests, the elders, and the whole council sought false testimony against Jesus, that they might put him to death,
60
and they found none. Even though many false witnesses came forward, they found none. But at last two false witnesses came forward,
61
and said, “This man said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.'”
62
The high priest stood up, and said to him, “Have you no answer? What is this that these testify against you?”
63 But Jesus held his peace. The high priest answered him, “I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64
Jesus said to him, “You have said it. Nevertheless, I tell you, after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of the sky.”
65
Then the high priest tore his clothing, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Behold, now you have heard his blasphemy.
66
What do you think?” They answered, “He is worthy of death!”
67
Then they spit in his face and beat him with their fists, and some slapped him,
68
saying, “Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who hit you?”
20
Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the multitudes to ask for Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.
22
Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do to Jesus, who is called Christ?” They all said to him, “Let him be crucified!”
23
But the governor said, “Why? What evil has he done?” But they cried out exceedingly, saying, “Let him be crucified!”
24
So when Pilate saw that nothing was being gained, but rather that a disturbance was starti
ng, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this righteous person. You see to it.”25
All the people answered, “May his blood be on us, and on our children!”
26
Then he released to them Barabbas, but Jesus he flogged and delivered to be crucified.
28
They stripped him, and put a scarlet robe on him.
29
They braided a crown of thorns and put it on his head, and a reed in his right hand; and they kneeled down before him, and mocked him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!”
30
They spat on him, and took the reed and struck him on the head.
31
When they had mocked him, they took the robe off of him, and put his clothes on him, and led him away to crucify him.
34
They gave him sour wine to drink mixed with gall. When he had tasted it, he would not drink.
35
When they had crucified him, they divided his clothing among them, casting lots,
38
Then there were two robbers crucified with him, one on his right hand and one on the left.
39
Those who passed by blasphemed him, wagging their heads,
40
and saying, “You who destroy the temple, and build it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross!”
41
Likewise the chief priests also mocking, with the scribes, the Pharisees, and the elders, said,
42
“He saved others, but he can't save himself. If he is the King of Israel, let him come down from the cross now, and we will believe in him.
43
He trusts in God. Let God deliver him now, if he wants him; for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'”
44
The robbers also who were crucified with him cast on him the same reproach.
46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani?” That is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
50
Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit.
51
Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split.
52
The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53
and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.
54
Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God.”
Jesus' body was taken down, wrapped in a shroud, put in the tomb, and a large stone was rolled across the entrance. The chief priests and pharisees mounted a guard to keep the tomb secure, and sealed the stone. But then, an angel came down, and moved the stone, and the guards were frightened as dead men. The angels saw the woman, and spoke to them, telling them that although Jesus was crucified and dead, he had been risen, and now, he is going before you to Galilee.
Of course, the conspirators lied and tried to say that the disciples had come and stolen the body away.
I just gaveyou verses from the NT besides the Quran.You say there were eyewitnesses but the scriptures disagree because when he was arrested:
Mark 14:50
And they all forsook him, and fled.Matthew 26:56
But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.Ironically in the book of John it says he was a witness so I guess either ALL did not forsake him or John did not want to admit he forsook him. We know from the scriptures that disciples did not witness the crucifixion or the placing of Jesus in the tomb because they were hiding from the Jews.
Of course you are also incorrect I haven't turned my Back and I have went through the door: I Worship God and know he sent Jesus Christ and I also know he sent Muhammad as well.
The vineyard parable in Matthew 21 backs up the fact that this was no sacrifice or Jesus offering up his life. The Father in the parable says 'They will respect my son.' yet you believe the Father sent his son specifically to be killed.
Quote Now, Jesus said that the good news of the coming kingdom will be given, as a witness to all of the nations, and then the end would come. Then it must be the good news that Islam preaches because Christianity and the Gospel has been already preached to all of the nations exhaustively. Also, all the predictions Jesus made “according to the scriptures” did not come to pass such as:
Matthew 10:23
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.Of course this did not happen but Jesus did not and does not know when he will return and likewise his predictions of death is what he believed but God says:
Isaiah 42:19
Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the Lord’s servant?now look at this:
Luke 23:22
And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.Matthew 27:19
When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.Now the fact about romans are they were inclined to do as they pleased especially if their wife supported it, it would have been no problem for Pilate to ensure the release of Jesus
Luke 23:8-12
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
8 And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him. 9 Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing. 10 And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused him. 11 And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked him, and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate.
12 And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.
Why would they suddenly become friends herod did not want Jesus punished either so he let him go
Hi Bod.
I personally believe, as many many do, that the scriptures, the Bible, is truth, and I believe what it says.
For example, when God first came to me, the scriptures were spoken, AGAINST me, then to reassure me. (discipline).
God used the Bible to speak to me, endlessly.
I will admit there were parts of Paul hard to understand (as Peter himself attests), and so I just left it for the time being. However, now, I believe MOST of the Bible. I take the scriptures as truth absolute, and have complete faith in it, and, if I do not understand something, or would like an answer, I will pray and ask.
The Holy Spirit will lead us into ALL truth, in time, IF we let it, and we have no need for a teacher (that is in scripture).
I believe that the Bible, as we have it, in the closest to possible form (i.e. the RSV, the Jerusalem Bible, or the World English Bible, all of which God could basically put into our hands) are the truth, and we have to accept them as truth.
So, when the scriptures are believed — then there is ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT that Jesus was crucified – and risen from the dead.
The only thing that would make us doubt, I believe, is if we go reading other things! There is an amazing power in reading, I think, over listening to somebody speak (think about that).
So, the scriptures are absolute truth to me. But you have chosen to accept another book, the Quran, as absolute truth, despite the GLARING contradictions. And when there are contradictions, and if only one is truth, then the other must be a lie (and cannot be trusted). And the best lies contain 99% truth.
This, BTW, is in reply to your statement that the authors of the four gospels were NOT eye witnesses to the crucifixion.
Well, I disagree, because I know that Lazarus (the author of “John”) WAS an eye witness. Read “John”and you will see. He was there through everything, and he was the one “Whom Jesus loved the most”.I believe that God had his HAND in those gospels being sent as a witness throughout the world.
In the gospel of “John”, like in Matthew, we have Jesus' OWN prophesies of his own death. (Are you saying now that Jesus was a FALSE PROPHET!?)
You quoted verses, despite what I showed you, where you believe that God saved Jesus. Example, Psalms 91.
Well yes, I agree!
When taking the scriptures as a whole, God saved Jesus by raising him from the dead to eternity!The only way that you will ever see those verses, is when you accept the Bible as TRUTH.
Just to add to something you (and I) said about the door not being closed,
Scripture tells us that the only unforgivable sin is against the Holy Spirit. And when a Christian falls away into sin, IF they have “Tasted of the Heavenly” (Do you know what that means?)
Quote
The vineyard parable in Matthew 21 backs up the fact that this was no sacrifice or Jesus offering up his life. The Father in the parable says 'They will respect my son.' yet you believe the Father sent his son specifically to be killed.No, I do not believe that “God sent Jesus specifically to be killed”.
I believe that God 'foresaw' exactly what would happen, which is why it was prophesied about in the Old Testament.
Jesus was the prefect man, but they killed him, not knowing who was in him, which was The Holy Spirit, (often called the Son in earlier Christian writings).
The Son of Man according to the flesh, foreseen:
Daniel 7
9
I saw until thrones were placed, and one who was ancient of days sat: his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, [and] its wheels burning fire.
10
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousands of thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
13
I saw in the night visions, and behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14
There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Quote (2besee @ Aug. 29 2013,22:51) I will get to the rest of your post soon. Quote No, I do not believe that “God sent Jesus specifically to be killed”. I believe that God 'foresaw' exactly what would happen, which is why it was prophesied about in the Old Testament.
So you agree than that Jesus was not sent as a SACRIFICE or that he OFFERED himself up then?
Hi Bod,
No – I do not hold to the western view of (ransom sacrifice is it?).
That is western, and i do not think that you would find that view in the Middle East.This is what I believe – The moral influence view:
- (Wikipedia) “The moral influence view of the atonement teaches that the purpose and work of Jesus Christ was to bring positive moral change to humanity. This moral change came through the teachings and example of Jesus, the Christian movement he founded, and the inspiring effect of his martyrdom and resurrection. It is one of the oldest views of the atonement in Christian theology and a prevalent view for most of Christian history.
- Teacher – a majority of the Gospel accounts focus on Jesus' teachings. These teachings focus largely on individual and social morality, and encourage love. Example – many New Testament passages speak of imitating Christ and following his example. The Gospel accounts provide a rich body of material from which early Christians drew examples.
- Founder and Leader – the Church movement has a large role in the moral influence view, as its purpose is to continue to morally transform individuals and societies.
- Martyr – Jesus' crucifixion is viewed as a martyrdom, in which he was killed as a consequence of his activity to bring moral transformation.
The moral influence doctrine of atonement is typically taught within a paradigm of salvation which focuses on positive moral change as the core of Christianity. God is depicted as concerned with whether a person's inner character is good or evil (where 'good' refers primarily to unselfish love toward others). In this system, God works to bring positive moral change within the hearts of individuals and to transform societies to become more loving. He acted to bring such change through the teachings of the Old Testament Law, the Jewish Prophets, and the teaching and example of Jesus. The inspiring power of Jesus' martyrdom and subsequent resurrection are also often cited as catalysts for moral change. Many holding a moral influence view also believe that the Holy Spirit works to help people toward moral change. In the moral influence view, it is generally believed that God will judge the souls of the dead in the afterlife based on their moral character, attested to by their conduct (a belief that many Evangelical Protestants reject). Most advocates of the view strongly endorse the concept of Free Will, insisting that humans are responsible for their actions and capable of change. However, some advocates (e.g. Augustine) have held the view that humans are incapable of moral change themselves and require God to radically alter their psychology through the Holy Spirit working in them. The moral influence model of atonement is usually associated with a minimal doctrine of Original Sin or complete denial thereof, although not always.
Advocates of the moral influence over the centuries have ranged from those who fully affirm the Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity and the fully divine nature of Jesus Christ, to those who claim that Jesus was fully human and not deity. The moral influence model stands somewhat separate from such questions about the divine nature of Christ. It tends to emphasize the following aspects of Christ' work:
So, as you can see, this is what the earliest church taught and what the middle eastern Christians still believe.
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