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Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 15 2009,14:06) bodhitharta, What is your opinion about Isaiah 53?
Isaiah 53(NIV) reads:
Quote 1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
This thread should be moved to traditions if it is asking whether or not Jesus died on the cross since it explicit in the commonly excepted Western Cannon that he did.
You mean the cannon organized by the RCC?I'm just saying you can't love what you call the false church one minute than when it;s convenient dislike or hate it, is that right?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 15 2009,12:14) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 15 2009,10:07) Hi BD: Maybe the following scripture will help you to understand.
Quote Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Gen 22:3 ¶ And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
Gen 22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
Gen 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid [it] upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here [am] I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where [is] the lamb for a burnt offering?
Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Gen 22:9 ¶ And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind [him] a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said [to] this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
Notice what verse 22:8 states.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Exactly! Abraham was told not to harm his own son for the Lord God would provide a substitute. As I have said JESUS did not get CRUCIFIED nor was he KILLED just like ISAAC was not Burned or Killed or harmed.(1) That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)But Abraham laid down the life of his son, his “only” son and God saved him just like he saved Jesus.
Notice in the Quran it explicitly states “it was made to appear to them”
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Matthew 13:13-15That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Mark 4:11-13Now this is after the “crucifixion”
Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Acts 28:25-27
Hi BD:The Quran is wrong, and you have been deceived into believing what it says relative to this.
God did not require Abraham to sacrifice Isaac because He provided the sacrifice, as Abraham tells Isaac when He was questioning about the sacrifice, “God will provide the sacrifice”. The ram caught in the thicket is symbolic of the sacrifice God would provide in the person of His Only Begotten Son and His Christ.
Again, the Quran is wrong on this subject, and so there is no further discussion about this. You keep bringing this up as if the Quran supercedes what the bible states.
I am praying that God will open your eyes to this fact.
Love in Christ,
Martybodhitharta wrote:
Quote You mean the cannon organized by the RCC?
It would be officially done by the Catholic Church circa 393 which I believe was before the eastern and western churches split. It still disagrees with their teachings.
It does not care as we are taught to test the spirits. How do you do that?
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote I'm just saying you can't love what you call the false church one minute than when it;s convenient dislike or hate it, is that right?
I test the teachings of the RCC and find them false while in my test of scripture I find its teachings true.
My point is that whether you agree with the Western Cannon as commonly accepted or not this particular forum is reserved for discussions that assume it is true. We have other areas where we can discuss questioning accounts as they are put forward in scripture.
I would still appreciate your opinion about Isaiah 53 if you would care to share it.
bohitharta: I had many thoughts and ideas along this line and your posts have so cleared up and stablized my beliefs. Excellent job covering this topic with true scriptures within context. I don't see how anyone could refute what you have presented. Yet it never ceases to amaze me how people will fight nearly to death to hang on to previously accepted doctrines. Once again thank you for the great learning in these posts. God Bless you, TK
Quote (942767 @ Nov. 15 2009,14:44) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 15 2009,12:14) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 15 2009,10:07) Hi BD: Maybe the following scripture will help you to understand.
Quote Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Gen 22:3 ¶ And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
Gen 22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
Gen 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid [it] upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here [am] I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where [is] the lamb for a burnt offering?
Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Gen 22:9 ¶ And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind [him] a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said [to] this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
Notice what verse 22:8 states.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Exactly! Abraham was told not to harm his own son for the Lord God would provide a substitute. As I have said JESUS did not get CRUCIFIED nor was he KILLED just like ISAAC was not Burned or Killed or harmed.(1) That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)But Abraham laid down the life of his son, his “only” son and God saved him just like he saved Jesus.
Notice in the Quran it explicitly states “it was made to appear to them”
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Matthew 13:13-15That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Mark 4:11-13Now this is after the “crucifixion”
Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Acts 28:25-27
Hi BD:The Quran is wrong, and you have been deceived into believing what it says relative to this.
God did not require Abraham to sacrifice Isaac because He provided the sacrifice, as Abraham tells Isaac when He was questioning about the sacrifice, “God will provide the sacrifice”. The ram caught in the thicket is symbolic of the sacrifice God would provide in the person of His Only Begotten Son and His Christ.
Again, the Quran is wrong on this subject, and so there is no further discussion about this. You keep bringing this up as if the Quran supercedes what the bible states.
I am praying that God will open your eyes to this fact.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Can you tell me exactly why the Quran is wrong?If it was simply another book that was attached to the inside of The Bible would it be right then?
Also all the books that were already written that didn't get into the bible and the books that were removed from the protestant's bible are they also wrong?
The Jews don't have any of the NT in their Bible does that invalidate the entire NT? I know it invalidates it for them but we know that it is valid.
So, I must ask you on what grounds could you possible know that it is “wrong”?
BTW, is there anything you use to think you were right about and later discovered you were wrong or have you ever thought you were wrong about something and later discovered you were right?
If so how is it possible for you to say the Quran is wrong never having read it or having any other proof. The Bible doesn't say the Quran is wrong or there will be no more writings coming from God. I can give you more proof of The Quran being right than you can give me that it is wrong.
The information in the Quran about the events in the Bible are so informative and cohesive to the Bible it would have been impossible for a human to write it.
God provided a Sacrifice for Abraham and God hates human sacrifice but you believe God did what he hated, what he called an abomination that never even came to his mind.
Jesus was taken up to heaven flesh and bones according to scripture but Paul said he met Jesus as a Spirit isn't that denying that Jesus came in the Flesh?
Your single reason that the letters of Paul are correct is because they are bound in the same bibliography is there any other reason?
In the book of revelation Jesus sends his angel to reveal the things to John yet with Paul, Jesus comes himself? Although Jesus said he would be remaining at the right hand of God in heaven until he returned to rule.
Is that true?
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Nov. 16 2009,00:31) bohitharta: I had many thoughts and ideas along this line and your posts have so cleared up and stablized my beliefs. Excellent job covering this topic with true scriptures within context. I don't see how anyone could refute what you have presented. Yet it never ceases to amaze me how people will fight nearly to death to hang on to previously accepted doctrines. Once again thank you for the great learning in these posts. God Bless you, TK
God Bless you always!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2009,04:58) Hi BD,
It is not inspired by our God.
It's a direct revelation from God given by Gabriel who stands in the presence of God Almighty, Where did daniel get his revelation?And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
Luke 1:18-20And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luke 1:25-27This is the angel that just like Daniel came to Muhammad
1) Say: Whoever is an enemy to gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah.s will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #972) Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and apostles, to gabriel and Michael,- Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #98)(3) If ye two turn in repentance to Him, your hearts are indeed so inclined; But if ye back up each other against him, truly Allah is his Protector, and gabriel, and (every) righteous one among those who believe,- and furthermore, the angels – will back (him) up.
( سورة التحريم , At-Tahrim, Chapter #66, Verse #4)Hi BD,
No.
Even if a real angel of God told us scripture was false we do not listen to them.
But you have been deceived by men who thought they heard from an angel of God and tell us the Spirit of God was not accurate before and offer new ideas.cobblers
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Nov. 15 2009,19:31) bohitharta: I had many thoughts and ideas along this line and your posts have so cleared up and stablized my beliefs. Excellent job covering this topic with true scriptures within context. I don't see how anyone could refute what you have presented. Yet it never ceases to amaze me how people will fight nearly to death to hang on to previously accepted doctrines. Once again thank you for the great learning in these posts. God Bless you, TK
What has he presented?He refuses to answer my questions or address my points. At best he has chosen to state the biblical cannon we Westerners use is heresy because the Roman Catholic Church officially endorsed it.
Psalms 40:6 does not support his idea of bloodless atonement as that is not the point God was making. God was teaching his people that he wanted compassion and not sacrifice. Jesus' act of sacrifice is an act of compassion.
If you read the Law of Mosses you would know it commands both bloodless and blood atonement. Whether it is bloodless or not atonement without compassion is worthless.
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote Can you tell me exactly why the Quran is wrong?
I have not read it and so do not know if it is true or not but I go by what you say. I have tested what you state and find it is not the same gospel taught by Jesus and his servants nor by the prophets and writers of old. You claim your teaching comes from the Quran.
Does the Quaran promise that those that believe will become “a new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness”?
Does it tell you how to accomplish that goal? That is what the good news of the kingdom of God tells me.
The Roman Catholic Church or many so called Christian sects do not.
This question is more appropriate in the “Other Writings” forum.
Hi,
BD needs to deny the death of Jesus as part of his plan to deny the resurrection.
He plants his doubts and false doctrines for another god.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2009,05:17) Hi BD,
No.
Even if a real angel of God told us scripture was false we do not listen to them.
But you have been deceived by men who thought they heard from an angel of God and tell us the Spirit of God was not accurate before and offer new ideas.cobblers
I never said the Spirit of God was not accurate.Let me ask you, why didn't the Jews accept Jesus as Messiah, didn't they have the scriptures?
Why is it today that the average Christian believes in a triune God? Don't they have the scriptures?
Even Jesus said if those who are evil “see” they may turn and repent and he would heal them so why is it Jesus doesn't want them to see?
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Matthew 13:14-16That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Mark 4:11-13He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
John 12:39-41For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Acts 28:26-28Hi BD,
You want to correct the scriptures with your quran but our scriptures are of the Spirit of God and yours are of deceived men. Why would you think that was useful?Hi BD,
You should not confuse the false church with the body of Christ.
You are a slow learner on this matter.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2009,06:43) Hi,
BD needs to deny the death of Jesus as part of his plan to deny the resurrection.
He plants his doubts and false doctrines for another god.
The resurrection is a certainty(2) The life of this world is alluring to those who reject faith, and they scoff at those who believe. But the righteous will be above them on the Day of resurrection; for Allah bestows His abundance without measure on whom He will.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #212)(3) Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #55)(4) O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).
( سورة الحج , Al-Hajj, Chapter #22, Verse #5)Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 16 2009,06:40) bodhitharta wrote: Quote Can you tell me exactly why the Quran is wrong?
I have not read it and so do not know if it is true or not but I go by what you say. I have tested what you state and find it is not the same gospel taught by Jesus and his servants nor by the prophets and writers of old. You claim your teaching comes from the Quran.
Does the Quaran promise that those that believe will become “a new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness”?
Does it tell you how to accomplish that goal? That is what the good news of the kingdom of God tells me.
The Roman Catholic Church or many so called Christian sects do not.
This question is more appropriate in the “Other Writings” forum.
(2) Except for those who repent, mend (their lives) hold fast to Allah, and purify their religion as in Allah.s sight: if so they will be (numbered) with the believers. And soon will Allah grant to the believers a reward of immense value.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #146)(6) O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure: but Allah doth purify whom He pleases: and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things).
( سورة النور , An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #21)(11) For these, there is hope that Allah will forgive: For Allah doth blot out (sins) and forgive again and again.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #99)(13) Whether ye publish a good deed or conceal it or cover evil with pardon, verily Allah doth blot out (sins) and hath power (in the judgment of values).
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #149)(14) (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: “We are sons of Allah, and his beloved.” Say: “Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)”
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #18)(20) Not so do those who show patience and constancy, and work righteousness; for them is forgiveness (of sins) and a great reward.
( سورة هود , Hud, Chapter #11, Verse #11)Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 16 2009,02:09) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 16 2009,06:40) bodhitharta wrote: Quote Can you tell me exactly why the Quran is wrong?
I have not read it and so do not know if it is true or not but I go by what you say. I have tested what you state and find it is not the same gospel taught by Jesus and his servants nor by the prophets and writers of old. You claim your teaching comes from the Quran.
Does the Quaran promise that those that believe will become “a new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness”?
Does it tell you how to accomplish that goal? That is what the good news of the kingdom of God tells me.
The Roman Catholic Church or many so called Christian sects do not.
This question is more appropriate in the “Other Writings” forum.
(2) Except for those who repent, mend (their lives) hold fast to Allah, and purify their religion as in Allah.s sight: if so they will be (numbered) with the believers. And soon will Allah grant to the believers a reward of immense value.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #146)(6) O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure: but Allah doth purify whom He pleases: and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things).
( سورة النور , An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #21)(11) For these, there is hope that Allah will forgive: For Allah doth blot out (sins) and forgive again and again.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #99)(13) Whether ye publish a good deed or conceal it or cover evil with pardon, verily Allah doth blot out (sins) and hath power (in the judgment of values).
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #149)(14) (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: “We are sons of Allah, and his beloved.” Say: “Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)”
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #18)(20) Not so do those who show patience and constancy, and work righteousness; for them is forgiveness (of sins) and a great reward.
( سورة هود , Hud, Chapter #11, Verse #11)Thank you for your answer.
I do not see faith mentioned, so does the Quran expect you to be created anew though human effort?
In order to have faith you must believe it is possible to stop sinning. Does the Quran teach such a belief?
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