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Hi Nine. You write:
Quote David, when I share my understanding of scripture or doctrine, it is not to bash JWs or anyone else. My purpose is to seek unity with all who profess to be Christians so that people will want to join us in serving God.
I am glad that you have a zeal for God and are searching into the Bible. I'm not sure that 'seeking unity with all who profess to be Christians' is so good of an idea as most who profess to be followers of Christ really aren't. (Mat 13:24-30, 36-40; Mat 7:21,22)
Does wheat seek unity with weeds? Professing to be something does not make you something.Quote Jesus prayed, “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me”. (John 17:29-21) It's a great scripture. It speaks of unity. It doesn't mean the wheat and weeds would be united. It means the wheat would be united. And true Christians are united–united in truth and and the bond of love and worship of Jehovah God.
Quote As I have previously posted, God has shown me that when I have a different understanding than someone in authority is teaching to go to that person not judging them to be wrong but with the mentality that it might me that that is wrong.
There is no need to be tactful here, although it is appreciated. I realize that you and everyone on this forum believe JW's are wrong in this and many other things. I understand that.Quote Therefore, even without a scripture we know that God did not mean for us to smoke cigarettes.
I almost feel that some would disagree with what you just said. I've asked a person or two on here if they smoke and gotten silence. But yes, Bible principles tell us that smoking is wrong for several reasons. We are to be clean, as Jehovah is clean (holy.) Smoking is not a clean practice if you look at a pair of smokers lungs. We are to love our neighbor, and not blow death dealing poisons in his face. Bible principles tell me that to smoke would be to go against what God wants even though the Bible doesn't specifically say to not smoke, because of course, cigarettes weren't around then.Quote Blood, however, is essential to the human body. If the blood is gone, the body dies. Without water or food the body will die. These are essentials to the human body for life. How valuable is your life? Is it valuable enough to disregard God's commands? Isn't obeying Jehovah better than this life?
Imagine finding yourself in sore straights, walking through a desert with another person. You haven't had food for days. You haven't had water for days. You are at the point of death. Oh look, it's the other person–he's beginning to look like food. And he is food.
My point is that just because something is essential to the human body does not mean we can disregard Jehovah's commands.
If you view this present life as so valuable that you have to disregard Bible principles then I cannot help you.
Here's a principle that may apply in life threatening situations, where we may feel like our life is more important than following God:
LUKE 9:24
“For whoever wants to save his soul [or “life”] will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake is the one that will save it.”Quote And so suppose, that you come upon a man who has been stabbed and is bleeding profusely or maybe it is your own child. You get them to the hospital, but the doctor tells you that without a blood transfusion the person will die. You refuse to allow the blood transfusion because of JWs beliefs. Are you then a partaker to that person's death? You could have saved their life by allowing the blood transfusion.
If we came across a stabbed man on the street that we didn't know, we would bring him to the hospital and it's up to him or his family if he's unconscious to decide how best to help him. We are not in charge of forcing other people to follow Bible principles.
If it was my own child I would realize that first, the Bible says to 'abstain from blood.' Secondly, I would get a different doctor, because that one probably is so used to giving everyone a blood transfusion (whether they need it or not) that he doesn't know how to do things any other way. (I'm not exagerating here. Doctors sometimes used to give transfusions just to put some color into peoples cheeks.) Then, I would have my child recieve the highest best form of medical treatment available, without blood. And the risks associated with blood transfusions wouldn't be there, and there are many risks.
But, if it was a doctor that has routinely operated without blood and someone who doesn't see any other way (I should mention that when doctors say: “He'll die if he doesn't get blood,” it's rarely that simple.) The truth is usually: 'In my opinion, he is more likely to die if he doesn't get blood, but if we don't give him blood, he still has a chance and if we do give him blood, he has a chance of having problems down the road, or even death from it.' None of that really matters though. “Abstain…from blood.”Nine, do you have faith in the resurrection? Real faith? Do you truly believe it? Is it absolutely real to you? No doubts?
If so, then this life is a speck of time, nothing. To disobey God lasts forever. This life is short.david
Hi david,
The issue highlights the belief of some that our salvation is still dependant on obeying external rules and not the Spirit who interprets those rules as the inner teacher. Following rules speaks of a fearful and distant relationship with God and not the experience of family love.How do you like your steak david? medium rare?
It is impossible not to take in blood when we eat.The Jews treat their meat to kosher standards removing all blood vessels but they still partake of some blood.
Col 2
” 16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”
1Cor 10
” 25Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:26For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. “
Act 15:29 that ye abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which if ye keep yourselves, it shall be well with you. Fare ye well.
This blood from Idols was to be taken through the mouth and there by taken as FOOD. Blood taken intravenously would not go through the digestive system. Besides Jesus said It's not what goes in the mouth that defiles the man it's what comes out. Transfusions doesn't go through the mouth at all.
Things strangled! As far as I know I haven't ate anything that was strangled. Again it's not what goes in the mouth. What goes in the mouth effects the flesh what comes out the mouth is Spiritual and therefore defiles the whole soul. Did Jesus' sacrifice change the chemistry of unclean animals? I eat scanvengers ( Pork, sea food, etc) the kingdom of heaven is not FOOD, that would include blood being taken through the digestive system. Wouldn't
Quote How do you like your steak david? medium rare?
It is impossible not to take in blood when we eat.Actually I like it burnt to a crisp. But that's just me. Nick, we are all sinful (meaning we fall short of the glory of God.) God expects we try our best. He isn't pharisaical in what he wants from us.
When the Israelites bled meat, you know as well as me that there were traces of blood. And yet, did that matter to God? Or did he simply expect them to follow his “rules” the best they could?Quote The issue highlights the belief of some that our salvation is still dependant on obeying external rules and not the Spirit who interprets those rules as the inner teacher. Following rules speaks of a fearful and distant relationship with God and not the experience of family love.
Nick, the Bible does contain “rules.” I like to call them commands. We are commanded to abstain from blood. This is what the holy spirit and the governing body of early Christians commanded. It's what was inspired by God to be written as a “rule.”Following rules speaks of a fearful and distant relationship with God and not the experience of family love.–Nick
“Following rules speaks of a fearful and distant relationship with God”? ? ?
1 JOHN 5:3
“For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments. . .”I thought, Nick, that following certain rules was the result of the love of God.
Quote The Jews treat their meat to kosher standards removing all blood vessels but they still partake of some blood.
OK, well why did you ask me the question of whether there were any traces of blood in the steak I eat? Obviously, you know that there are tiny amounts of blood in what the Israelites ate. Did God condemn them for that? So why do you ask me these questions? What purpose does it serve?Quote Col 2
” 16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”
1Cor 10
” 25Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:26For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. “
First, your Bible has the word “shambles” in it instead of “meat market.” Can I ask which Bible this is? I know the KJ has that, but I'm wondering if that's the only one? I thought you generally haven't been quoting from the KJ.
You are misapplying this scripture. Please go back and read it again. Consider what the Bible has to say about blood. Given the commands against blood, do you think he was saying that it doesn't matter if you eat blood? Or could this scripture be referring to something else?
The Christians in Colossae were to let no one judge their standing before God on the basis of observance of festivals of the Mosaic Law.
And those words at 1 Corinthians 10:25 refer to meat that might have been from an animal sacrificed at an idol temple. Back then, excess meat from temples was disposed of by being sold to merchants, who might include it among their supply of meat for sale in their stores. Paul’s point was that meat from a temple was not intrinsically bad or contaminated. Evidently it was customary to drain and use on the pagan altars the blood of animals sacrificed there. So if some of the excess meat was sold in a market, with no obvious link to a temple or the misconceptions of pagans, Christians could simply buy it as commercial meat that was clean and that had been suitably drained of blood.
I believe your scriptural arguments are unsound and misapplied. We know this because of the commands before the law, in the law and after the law to abstain from blood.
david
Hi David:
My computer skills are limited, and so, I don't know how to cut and paste and all of that, but I will do my best to respond to your questions.
Are you saying that unless a person is a JW that person is not a Christian? John 3:16-18 states: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosovever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth in him is not condemned:…”. Romans 8:1-2 states: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death”.
Everyone who isn't a JW is a tare. Is that what you are saying? Neither you nor I are the judge. Although there are things that we as a Christian community do judge such as those who offend and do not repent or as the apostle Paul states: “But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one not not to eat. For what have I do do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within: But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person”. (1 Co. 6:11-13) “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, or adulterers, nor effeminate, or abusers of themselves with mankind. Nor thieves, not covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Co. 6:9-10)
You quote Luke 9:24 which states: “For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it”. This means to me that my purpose for living is to serve my God in all that I do. The apostles that Jesus called left their profession to serve God. In the same manner, I have left my profession not literally at this point, I have done the work of an evangelist in a street ministry using a trac which I prepared since 1996, and I believe that the Lord has shown me that I will be traveling througout the world in his service in the future, and I am ready to go wherever God sends me. Luke 9:25 is a continuation of what the Lord is saying in 9:24 and states: “For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?” This does not say to me that if I am in need of a blood transfusion that I should refuse it in order to obey the commandment to “abstain from blood”.
I believe that God has made it clear to you through me that the commandment to “abstain from blood” was to abstain from eating the blood of living creatures (animals, fish and fowl), and I He also showed you that He makes a distinction between them and man, in that man is created in His image, and the commandment to mankind regarding him is not to shed his blood, and to shed man's blood has dire consequences. (Genesis 9-3-6)
And yes, David absolutely, I believe in the resurrection of the just and the unjust. I know my heavenly
Father and He knows me, and I obey God through my Lord Jesus out of my love for him. I look forward to being with him and hopefully, with you for an eternity.David, Christians are in different stages in their walk with the Lord. Some teach the trinity doctrine. Can we say that they are not Christians because they understand the scriptures this way. The apostle Paul in dealing with divisions in the church states: “Who then is Paul, and who is Apolos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apolos watered; but God gave the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he
himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire”. (1 Co. 3:5-15)I don't know how else we can come into unity unless we discuss our differences, and when we don't agree after we have had our discussion, we can go to God in prayer as I have already discussed with you. God will help us to come into unity if we truly desire this. But we have to be willing to accept correction if we are wrong otherwise we are wasting God's time.
Yes, David I have a different understanding on many of the teachings of the JWs, and there are some that I agree with. I will share those with you in the Thread regarding the JW church, but I also have a different understanding than some of the teachings of the church where I currently worship.
The setting for commandment to “abstain from blood” in the Acts of the apostles was that the apostle Paul was dealing with the transition from life under the Law of Moses to life under grace. There were Jews who were teaching that the gentiles who had confessesed Jesus as their Lord had to be circuscised and obey the Law of Moses in order to be saved. The apostles discussed the issue of circumcision and decided that that it was not necessary for the gentiles to be circuscised, but they thought they should, “abtain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication”. (Acts 15:5-29)
Their were two commandments to abstain from blood given to the Jewish nation under the law one was to abstain from eating the blood living creatures. (Leviticus 17)
Quote I believe that God has made it clear to you through me that the commandment to “abstain from blood” was to abstain from eating the blood of living creatures (animals, fish and fowl) –Nine.
I guess you believe wrongly then, Nine. I'm sorry, but what you believe has been made clear to me has not.
This is largely what this post and mine before it was about:
Quote I don't know how else we can come into unity unless we discuss our differences –Nine.
We are not to come to unity. Interfaith is not something the Bible promotes. Would you want to come to unity with the scribes and pharisees? ARe they just a little behind in their path, than we? No, they're wrong. They're badly wrong and its because they choose to follow that path. Are we to come to unity with everyone? No. The Bible doesn't teach this at all.
It does teach that God's true followers would be united. Those claiming to be Christians today are not united at all, in the least. Even among those of the same religion, they would kill each other if sent to war to do so. Is that unity? That is the opposite.Quote Yes, David I have a different understanding on many of the teachings of the JWs, and there are some that I agree with. I will share those with you in the Thread regarding the JW church, but I also have a different understanding than some of the teachings of the church where I currently worship. Hey Nine. Actually, I was going to suggest this. most of your comment here isn't about “abstaining from blood.”
david
Hi 94,
How did the apostles lay the foundation stone?
Can it be laid any way or should we imitate their actions?
Does faith alone save men?David:
If we are not in unity of this subject, I would invite you to pray to God asking Him if it is possible that you may have made a mistake. Or do JWs make mistakes? Is JW doctrine infallible?
Nick: We have already discussed that true faith results in obedience to God's Word, but apparently the interfaith to which David refers is going to church with those who profess to be Christians but who are not JWs.
Hi 94,
Correct me if I am wrong but it seems from what you wrote that you regard the body of Christ as made up of all who have listened to the gospel and responded in faith no matter where and how they fellowship. I think the path is much narrower and men must be reborn from above.Does the blood of Jesus save all who believe, or believe and obey?
This topic is really on blood, but on what Nine said,
I agree with Nick in that the path is a narrow one and few are on it ALTHOUGH MANY THINK THEY ARE.
Judg. 10:6, 7: “The sons of Israel again proceeded to do what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and they began to serve the Baals and the Ashtoreth images and the gods of Syria and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines. So they left Jehovah and did not serve him. At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel.”
If a person worships any thing or any person other than the true God, the Creator of heaven and earth, it is evident that his form of worship is not acceptable to JehovahMark 7:6, 7: “He [Jesus] said to them [the Jewish Pharisees and scribes]: ‘Isaiah aptly prophesied about you hypocrites, as it is written, “This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.”’”
Regardless of whom a group profess to worship, if they hold to doctrines of men instead of the inspired Word of God, their worship is in vain.Rom. 10:2, 3: “I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge; for, because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.”
People may have God’s written Word but lack accurate knowledge of what it contains, because they have not been taught properly. They may feel that they are zealous for God, but they may not be doing what he requires. Their worship is not going to please God, is it?Most religions do teach that a person should not lie or steal, and so forth. But is that sufficient? Would you be happy to drink a glass of poisoned water because someone assured you that most of what you were getting was water?
2 Cor. 11:14, 15: “Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness.” (Here we are cautioned that not everything that originates with Satan may appear hideous. One of his chief methods of deceiving mankind has been false religion of all kinds, to some of which he gives a righteous appearance.)
2 Tim. 3:2, 5: “Men will be . . . having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.”
SO, NINE, Regardless of their outward professions of love for God, if those with whom you worship do not sincerely apply his Word in their own lives, the Bible urges you to break off such association.
It doesn't say to try to come to unity to with them. It says the opposite. We are to “turn away” from people who have a form of godly devotion, but prove false to it's power.
Of course, we are to tell others about the good news of Christ and his kingdom. But to form a bond with such ones, or to interfaith with them, is the opposite of what this scripture says.Would it demonstrate loyalty to God and to his righteous standards if his servants were to embrace in religious brotherhood those who themselves practice what God condemns or who condone such practices?
“Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. . . . Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Cor. 5:11; 6:9, 10) “Whoever . . . wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.” (Jas. 4:4) “O you lovers of Jehovah, hate what is bad. He is guarding the souls of his loyal ones.”—Ps. 97:10.
I believe a lot of the things practiced in the name of religion are bad which we are to hate.
Quote If we are not in unity of this subject, I would invite you to pray to God asking Him if it is possible that you may have made a mistake. Or do JWs make mistakes? Is JW doctrine infallible?
Yes, JW's are people, like yourself. We are imperfect. But the scriptures above are not mistakes. Not all who claim to be Christian are to come to unity.MATTHEW 7:21-23
““Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.”
It's clear that “many” who THINK they are on the Lord's side are not.Remember, Nine, Jesus didn't come to bring everyone together. In fact, he said he came to cause division.
MATTHEW 10:34-35
“Do not think I came to put peace upon the earth; I came to put, not peace, but a sword. For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law.”david
Nine, I pray you will consider the scriptures I have mentioned and consider how they fit in with what you believe.
Hi david,
You say
“People may have God’s written Word but lack accurate knowledge of what it contains, because they have not been taught properly. They may feel that they are zealous for God, but they may not be doing what he requires. Their worship is not going to please God, is it?”Does this not apply to the false teaching within the JW denomination?
Well, without question, either YOU or T8 lack “accurate knowledge.”
One of you believes false things. So, I would say it without question applies to you or t8.
And, on the subject of God torturing people alive in fire, I would say you are wrong and you lack “accurate knowledge.”But my point, which you obviously missed, and which I was agreeing with you on, was that not all who claim to be Christians are to come to unity.
Hi david,
The problem with trying to please God by obeying external commandments is
how much is enough,
and is it necessary?
Nothing is enough.Our righteousness is as filthy rags so self righteous smugness is folly.
The Jews kosher prepare their meat but you do not do so and are not troubled about it.Sons of God please God always and live in His love knowing that whatever is important He will lead them to do.
Quote The problem with trying to please God by obeying external commandments is
how much is enough,
and is it necessary?
Nothing is enough.Perhaps our very best is enough.
Simply to love Jehovah our God with our whole heart soul and mind, as the scripture goes.
God does not demand what we cannot give. He only expects our best.Nick, you say: “The Jews kosher prepare their meat but you do not do so and are not troubled about it.”
I'm sorry. Which scriptures are you referring to?“If there is valid basis to believe that animal blood (or a component of it) is definitely being used locally in food products, Christians should exercise due caution. Still, it would be unwise to be upset by mere suspicion or live with unfounded worry.
Early in man’s history, our Creator ruled that humans should not eat blood. (Genesis 9:3, 4) He stated that blood represents life, which is a gift from him. Blood removed from a creature could be used only in sacrifice, such as on the altar. Otherwise, blood from a creature was to be poured on the ground, in a sense giving it back to God. His people were to avoid sustaining life by taking in blood. He decreed: “You must not eat the blood of any sort of flesh, because the soul of every sort of flesh is its blood. Anyone eating it will be cut off.” (Leviticus 17:11-14) God’s prohibition on the eating of blood was repeated for Christians. (Acts 15:28, 29) So the early Christians needed to avoid food containing blood, such as meat from strangled animals or blood sausage.
In practical terms, though, how would those Christians act on their determination to ‘keep themselves from blood’? (Acts 21:25) Should they simply apply the apostle Paul’s words: “Everything that is sold in a meat market keep eating, making no inquiry on account of your conscience”?
No. Those words at 1 Corinthians 10:25 refer to meat that might have been from an animal sacrificed at an idol temple. Back then, excess meat from temples was disposed of by being sold to merchants, who might include it among their supply of meat for sale in their stores. Paul’s point was that meat from a temple was not intrinsically bad or contaminated. Evidently it was customary to drain and use on the pagan altars the blood of animals sacrificed there. So if some of the excess meat was sold in a market, with no obvious link to a temple or the misconceptions of pagans, Christians could simply buy it as commercial meat that was clean and that had been suitably drained of blood.
It would have to be different, however, if those Christians knew that meat from strangled animals (or blood sausage) was one of the choices at local shops. They would need to exercise care in choosing what meat to buy. They might be able to recognize the meat products that contained blood if such had a distinctive color (even as today blood sausage can usually be recognized in lands where it is common). Or Christians might inquire of a reputable butcher or meat merchant. If they had no reason to believe that certain meat contained blood, they could simply buy and eat.
Paul also wrote: “Let your reasonableness become known to all men.” (Philippians 4:5) That could apply to the matter of buying meat. Neither Israel’s Law nor the decree of the first-century Christian governing body indicated that God’s people had to go to great lengths in inquiring about meat, even becoming vegetarians if there was the slightest doubt about blood being in available meat.
An Israelite hunter who killed an animal would drain its blood. (Compare Deuteronomy 12:15, 16.) If his family could not eat all the meat, he might sell some. Even in a properly bled carcass, a small amount of blood would remain in the meat, but nothing in the Bible suggests that a Jew buying meat needed to go to extremes in getting such facts as the number of minutes between killing and draining, which artery or vein was cut to let the blood flow, and how the animal was hung up and for how long. Furthermore, the governing body did not write that Christians had to take extraordinary precautions in this regard, as if they needed ultimate answers before eating any meat.
In many lands today, the law, custom, or religious practice is such that meat products (except for unusual items, such as blood sausage) are from animals that must be drained of blood when slaughtered. Thus, Christians in those areas normally need not be preoccupied with slaughtering or processing methods. In an extended sense, they may simply ‘keep eating commercial meat, making no inquiry,’ and they can have a clear conscience that they are abstaining from blood.
There have occasionally been technical reports, though, about commercial blood use that have disturbed certain Christians. Some in the meat-processing industry reason that large amounts of blood from slaughtered animals can be collected for practical applications and profit, such as in fertilizers or animal feed. Researchers have studied whether such blood (or components) might be used in processed meats. A few commercial plants have even turned out limited amounts of liquid, frozen, or powdered plasma (or decolorized red-cell material) that might be substituted for a small percentage of meat in sausagelike products or pâté. Other studies have centered on using powdered blood derivatives as a filler or to bind water and fat in ground meat, in baking products, or in other foods and drinks to add protein or iron.
It is worth noting, however, that such research has been going on for decades. Yet, it seems that use of such products has been very limited, or even nonexistent, in most lands. Some typical reports help to show why:
“Blood is a source of nutritional and functional proteins. However, beef blood has been used only in limited quantities for direct human consumption because of the intense color and characteristic taste.”—Journal of Food Science, Volume 55, Number 2, 1990.
“Blood plasma proteins have useful properties such as high solubility, emulsifying activity and hydrophobicity . . . and their use in food processing offers great advantages. However, no effective system to sanitize plasma, especially after dehydration, has been established in Japan.”—Journal of Food Science, Volume 56, Number 1, 1991.
Some Christians have occasionally checked the labels on packaged foods, since many governments require that ingredients be listed. And they may choose to do so regularly with any product that they have reason to believe might contain blood. It would be right, of course, to avoid products that listed things such as blood, blood plasma, plasma, globin (or globulin) protein, or hemoglobin (or globin) iron. Marketing information from one European company in this field acknowledged: “Information concerning the use of globin as an ingredient must be marked on the package of the food in such a way that the consumer is not misled as to the composition or value of the food.”
However, even as to checking labels or making inquiry of butchers, reasonableness is needed. It is not as if every Christian worldwide must study the labels and ingredients on all packaged food or should interrogate employees at restaurants or food stores. A Christian might first ask himself, ‘Is there any verified evidence that blood and its derivatives are used in normal food products in this area or country?’ In most places the answer is no. Hence, many Christians have concluded that they personally will not divert a great deal of time and attention to checking on remote possibilities. A person who does not feel this way should act in accord with his conscience, without judging others who might resolve the matter otherwise but in good conscience before God.—Romans 14:2-4, 12.
Even if food
products containing blood can be produced, it may well be that this is not widely done because of cost, legislation, or other factors. For example, Food Processing (September 1991) noted: “For those processors that have any problems with the less than 1% (in the finished meat patty) of hydrolyzed beef plasma in the blend, an alternate mix replaces it with whey protein concentrate and could be certified as Kosher.”It bears emphasizing that law, custom, or taste in many lands is such that blood is normally drained from slaughtered animals and that such blood is not used in other food products. If there is no substantial basis for thinking that the situation is different locally or that a major change has occurred recently, Christians should guard against becoming disturbed by mere possibility or rumor. When, though, it is certain or highly likely that blood is widely used—whether in food or in medical treatment—we should be determined to obey God’s command to abstain from blood.”
–w 92 10/15, page 31Hi david,
Nothing is good enough.
The way of the OT law never related to gentiles and is closed .
Safety is only in the Son.
What you quote may be valid to you as your traditional beliefs but it is not scripture either.Hi Nick. You don't really hear what you're saying do you?
You say:
“The Jews kosher prepare their meat but you do not do so and are not troubled about it.Then I explain that Jewish tradition does not apply. I ask for the scriptures your speaking of.
Then you say:
The way of the OT law never related to gentiles and is closed .
Safety is only in the Son.
What you quote may be valid to you as your traditional beliefs but it is not scripture either.
If you believe that the way of the OT law never related to gentiles and is closed, then why do you question us in not following Jewish tradition which I'm trying hard to find in scripture?
And you say that what I quote may be valid to me, but it is not scripture either. Well Nick, I'm still waiting for your scripture about preparing meat in some kosher way, AND what I quoted had lots of scriptures in it, if you read it again.david
Hi david,
As I see it the way of the JWs is an attempted way of “works done” in imitation of the OT way. You show constantly your obedience to certain commands, such as meeting together and preaching, as if these will save you.But works could not and cannot save us. We must accept the salvation offered in the Son of God and rest from our own. We cannot save ourselves and attempted Pharisaical self perfectionism is pure futility, with the Spirit of God having the work of changing us after we are reborn from above. God sanctifies us by His Spirit within us-which we cannot do for ourselves.
Heb 4
” 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”
Quote As I see it the way of the JWs is an attempted way of “works done” in imitation of the OT way. You show constantly your obedience to certain commands, such as meeting together and preaching, as if these will save you.
And where have I spoke of these things in connection with “being saved”?
Nick, I don't really feel I am “constantly” showing obedience to certain commands. But when someone accuses me or questions why I do things, I do certainly point to the Bible as the reason we do certain things.Quote But works could not and cannot save us. Please Nick, show everyone where I said anything like that. Please do. You can't. I haven't.
Nick:
The topic here was regarding blood transfusions which is was discussing with David.
But, John 4:23-24 states: “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth”.
John 3:5 states: “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God”.
Hebrews 5:8-9 states: “Thou he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all who obey him;”.
The church were I fellowship obey the Word of God and I enjoy worshiping God there. What I did say is that I have a different understanding on some of their doctrine. I have gone to the pastors of the church and discussed these differences. They did not reject me but they were willing to hear what I had to say. They have just concluded a 40 day 24/7 prayer seeking direction from God. They want to be more missional oriented.
Nick, I also have some differences with you on some scriptures. But I believe that you are a Christian. And I know that Iam.
If we already knew everthing regarding God's Word, why do we bother discussing the scriptures on this forum. 2 Ti 2:15 states: “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth”.
David the division to which the Lord refers pertains to those who are in the flesh and those who are born again Christians. (Matt. 10:16-38) It should not refer to those who are Christians. Jesus states: “And I say also unto thee, that thou are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against”. The rock that Jesus to which Jesus refers is the Word of God. In addition, why would Jesus pray for unity if what he wanted was division. He prayed: “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me”. (John 17:20-21)
You know David, there were chief rulers who believed that Jesus was the Christ but would not confess him because they were fearful of being cast out of the synagogue. They feared man more than they did God. (John 12:42) Would the JWs cast you out if you came to them and told them that you had a difference with some of their doctrine?
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