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The blood bankers will speak differently, but it's important to note that all types of surgery can be performed successfully without blood transfusions.
This includes open-heart operations, brain surgery, amputation of limbs, and total removal of cancerous organs.
Writing in the New York State Journal of Medicine (October 15, 1972, p. 2527), Dr. Philip Roen said: “We have not hesitated to perform any and all indicated surgical procedures in the face of proscribed blood replacement.”
Dr. Denton Cooley, at the Texas Heart Institute, said: “We became so impressed with the results [from using nonblood plasma expanders] on the Jehovah’s Witnesses that we started using the procedure on all our heart patients.” (The San Diego Union, December 27, 1970, p. A-10)
“‘Bloodless’ open-heart surgery, originally developed for adult members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses sect because their religion forbids blood transfusions, now has been safely adapted for use in delicate cardiac procedures in infants and children.”—Cardiovascular News, February 1984, p. 5.Hi david,
That would be a very destructive event-alcohol is very harsh on blood vessels.So none of your own life in your own blood either?
Is that what you are saying?I see the architect of trinity, Tertullian, still gets good press with you.
Hi david.
Quote (david @ June 16 2006,02:38) How strong is your faith in the resurrection t8?
If God says not to do something, can you reason things out better than Him? Can you justify something He has condemned? Do you in any way know more than Him?
I would hope that I would rather die than deny my God.
But I wouldn't die for something unnecessarily. I hope not anyway.When it comes to something that is going to save my life, I would choose it, unless God forbade it of course. But I am not sure that blood is forbidden.
God called certain things unclean. But after the atonement, he now called them clean. So once that which was unclean is now clean, but only if our faith is strong enough to embrace it.
The Old Testament law, Leviticus 3:17 and other passages, forbid the eating of blood. Also in Acts 15:20, the apostles wrestled with the issue of eating meat with blood. But eating blood and receiving a blood transfusion are actually two different things.
Eating blood means that it goes down the digestive tract into the stomach. Receiving a blood transfusion goes into an entirely different system, the cardiovascular system, the blood veins to the heart.
I think it would be a waste to die because of a misunderstanding of scripture. However if you believe something to be a sin, then for you it is if you do it. In the same way that eating meat for a vegetarian who doesn't eat meat to please God is a sin. In this case the conscience is defiled.
But if we have strong faith we can eat meat and thank God for it.
Quote So none of your own life in your own blood either?
Is that what you are saying?Nick, I really don't understand the question.
I don't usually like to do this and prefer to answer questions myself, but this video which has been distributed to tens of thousands of phycisians shows the options that are available in the field of bloodless medicine. It also explains why some leading experts have called bloodless medicine the new standard of health care.
Quote (david @ June 17 2006,05:56) Quote So none of your own life in your own blood either?
Is that what you are saying?Nick, I really don't understand the question.
Hi david,
Could you be transfused with stored blood taken from your own body?It is often done.
If you had bleeding gums or a bleeding nose would it be sin to swallow that blood?Quote If you had bleeding gums or a bleeding nose would it be sin to swallow that blood?
A kid once asked me if it was cannabalism to eat your own pimple. I'll answer your question if you answer mine.Quote Could you be transfused with stored blood taken from your own body?It is often done. Ok, Nick, so you DO know some doctor stuff. I knew so.
While the Bible says to abstain from blood, I believe your question is one that enters an area where personal conscience is involved.
Before getting to that, let me just put down some things:
Bloodless Medicine and Surgery
Some of the Methods
Fluids: Ringer’s lactate solution, dextran, hydroxyethyl starch, and others are used to maintain blood volume, preventing hypovolemic shock. Some fluids now being tested can transport oxygen.
Drugs: Genetically engineered proteins can stimulate the production of red blood cells (erythropoietin), blood platelets (interleukin-11), and various white blood cells (GM-CSF, G-CSF). Other medications greatly reduce blood loss during surgery (aprotinin, antifibrinolytics) or help to reduce acute bleeding (desmopressin).
Biological hemostats: Collagen and cellulose woven pads are used to stop bleeding by direct application. Fibrin glues and sealants can plug puncture wounds or cover large areas of bleeding tissue.
Blood salvage: Salvaging machines recover blood that is lost during surgery or trauma. The blood is cleansed and can be returned to the patient in a closed circuit. In extreme cases, liters of blood can be recovered using such a system.
Surgical tools: Some devices cut and seal blood vessels simultaneously. Other devices can seal bleeding on large areas of tissue. Laparoscopic and minimally invasive instruments allow surgeries to be performed without the blood loss associated with large incisions.
Surgical techniques: Thorough operative planning, including consultation with experienced clinicians, helps the surgical team to avoid complications. Prompt action to stop bleeding is essential. Delays greater than 24 hours can greatly increase patient mortality. Dividing large surgeries into several smaller ones decreases total blood loss.
***Preventing and Controlling Hemorrhage Without Blood Transfusion
1. Surgical Devices:
a. Electrocautery
b. Laser surgery
c. Argon beam coagulator
d. Gamma knife radiosurgery
2. Techniques and Devices to Locate and Arrest Internal Bleeding:
a. Endoscopy to identify location of internal bleeding
b. Flexible suction coagulator electrode (Papp, J. P., JAMA, November 1, 1976, pages 2076-9)
c. Arterial embolization (JAMA, November 18, 1974, pages 952-3)
d. Controlled hypotension (until bleeding can be stopped)
e. Tissue adhesives (Dr. S. E. Silvas, MWN, September 5, 1977)
3. Operative and Anesthetic Techniques:
a. Hypotensive anesthesia (lowering the blood pressure)
b. Hypothermia (lowering body temperature)
c. Intraoperative hemodilution
d. Intraoperative blood salvage machines, e.g., “cell-saver”
e. Meticulous hemostasis and operative technique
f. Increased members in surgical team to reduce operative time
4. Monitoring Devices:
a. Transcutaneous oxygen monitor
b. Oximeter
5. Volume Expanders:
a. Crystalloids
(1) Ringer’s lactate (Eichner, E. R., Surgery Annual, January 1982, pages 85-99)
(2) Normal saline
b. Colloids
(1) Dextran
(2) Gelatin (Howell, P. J., Anaesthesia, January 1987, pages 44-8)
(3) Hetastarch
6. Chemical Hemostats:
a. Avitene
b. Gelfoam
c. Oxycel
d. Surgicel
e. Many others
7. Therapeutics for Low Hemoglobin:
a. Oxygen
b. Hyperbaric oxygen chamber (Hart, G. B., JAMA, May 20, 1974, pages 1028-9)
c. Iron dextran (Dudrick, S. J., Archives of Surgery, June 1985, pages 721-7)
d. Folic acid
e. Erythropoietin—stimulates bone marrow to produce blood
f. Anabolic steroids, e.g., Decadurabolin or synthetic growth hormone
g. Vitamin B-12 intramuscular injection
h. Vitamin C
i. Vitamin E (especially in newborn)
8. External Measures:
a. For bleeding:
(1) Applied direct pressure
(2) Ice packs
(3) Positioning of body (e.g., raising injured limb to slow bleeding)
b. For shock:
(1) Apply pressure cuffs to legs
(2) Antishock trousers
(3) Raising both legs to maintain blood pressure
9. Drugs for Patients With Blood Problems:
a. DDAVP, desmopressin (Kobrinsky, N. L., Lancet, May 26, 1984, pages 1145-8)
b. E-aminocaproic acid (Schwartz, S. I., Contemporary Surgery, May 1977, pages 37-40)
c. Vitamin K
d. Bioflavonoids (Physician’s Desk Reference)
e. Carbazochrome salicylate
f. Tranexamic acid (Transfusion Medicine Topic Update, May 1989)
g. Danazol
10. Other Points:
a. A moderate fall in blood pressure to about 90-100 mm of Hg may help bleeding to stop by natural clotting in a cut artery
b. Rule of minimum 10g hemoglobin for surgery has no valid scientific support
c. Surgical patients have survived with hemoglobin as low as 1.8 (Anaesthesia, 1987, Volume 42, pages 44-8)
d. Lower hemoglobin results in lower blood viscosity, in turn reducing the load on the heart and improving tissue perfusion and oxygenation
******
Now, on autotransfusion (one's own blood),
As I've said, it's a matter of conscience. Jehovah, to whom we owe our life decreed that blood should not be consumed.
In the Law for ancient Israel, God limited the use of blood because it represents life. He decreed: “The soul [or life] of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself have put it upon the altar for you to make atonement for your souls.” What if a man killed an animal for food? God said: “He must in that case pour its blood out and cover it with dust.” (Leviticus 17:11, 13)
((Professor Frank H. Gorman writes: “The pouring out of the blood is best understood as an act of reverence that demonstrates respect for the life of the animal and, thus, respect for God, who created and continues to care for that life.”))
Jehovah repeated this command again and again. (Deuteronomy 12:16, 24; 15:23) The Jewish Soncino Chumash notes: “The blood must not be stored but rendered unfit for consumption by pouring it on the ground.” No Israelite was to appropriate, store, and use the blood of ANOTHER creature, whose life belonged to God.
The obligation to keep the Mosaic Law ended when the Messiah died. Yet, God’s view of the sacredness of blood remains. . (Acts 15:28, 29; 21:25)As nick pointed out, occasionally, a doctor will urge a patient to deposit his own blood weeks before surgery (preoperative autologous blood donation, or PAD) so that if the need arises, he could transfuse the patient with his own stored blood.
However, such collecting, storing, and transfusing of blood directly contradicts what is said in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Blood is not to be stored; it is to be poured out—returned to God, as it were. Granted, the Mosaic Law is not in force now. Nevertheless, Jehovah’s Witnesses respect the principles God included in it, and they are determined to ‘abstain from blood.’However, Nick, other procedures or tests involving an individual’s o
wn blood are not so clearly in conflict with God’s stated principles.
For example, during certain surgical procedures, some blood may be diverted from the body in a process called hemodilution. The blood remaining in the patient is diluted. Later, his blood in the external circuit is directed back into him, thus bringing his blood count closer to normal. Similarly, blood that flows into a wound may be captured and filtered so that the red cells can be returned to the patient; this is called cell salvage. In a different process, blood may be directed to a machine that temporarily carries on a function normally handled by body organs (for example, the heart, lungs, or kidneys). The blood from the machine is then returned to the patient. In other procedures, blood is diverted to a separator (centrifuge) so that damaging or defective portions of it can be eliminated. Or the goal may be to isolate some of a blood component and apply that elsewhere on the body. There are also tests in which a quantity of blood is withdrawn in order to tag it or to mix it with medicine, whereupon it is put back into the patient.A Christian must decide for himself how his own blood will be handled in the course of a surgical procedure, medical test, or current therapy.
david
Actually, Nick, I found something that answers your question:
Quote This clearly rules out one common use of autologous blood—preoperative collection, storage, and later infusion of a patient’s own blood. In such procedure, this is what is done: Prior to elective surgery, some units of a person’s whole blood are banked or the red cells are separated, frozen, and stored. Then if it seems that the patient needs blood during or following surgery, his own stored blood can be returned to him. Current anxieties about blood-borne diseases have made this use of autologous blood popular. Jehovah’s Witnesses, though, DO NOT accept this procedure. We have long appreciated that such stored blood certainly is no longer part of the person. It has been completely removed from him, so it should be disposed of in line with God’s Law: “You should pour it out upon the ground as water.”—Deuteronomy 12:24. In a somewhat different process, autologous blood can be diverted from a patient to a hemodialysis device (artificial kidney) or a heart-lung pump. The blood flows out through a tube to the artificial organ that pumps and filters (or oxygenates) it, and then it returns to the patient’s circulatory system. Some Christians have permitted this if the equipment is not primed with stored blood. They have viewed the external tubing as elongating their circulatory system so that blood might pass through an artificial organ. They have felt that the blood in this closed circuit was still part of them and did not need to be ‘poured out.
What, though, if the flow of such autologous blood stopped briefly, such as if a heart-lung machine is shut down while the surgeon checks the integrity of coronary-bypass grafts?Actually, the Biblical emphasis is not on the issue of continuous flow. Even aside from surgery, a person’s heart might stop briefly and then resume. His circulatory system would not have to be emptied and his blood disposed of just because blood flow had stopped during the cardiac arrest. Hence, a Christian having to decide whether to permit his blood to be diverted through some external device ought to focus, not primarily on whether a brief interruption in flow might occur, but on whether he conscientiously felt that the diverted blood would still be part of his circulatory system.—Galatians 6:5.
watchtower 89, 3/1 30-1
Quote (david @ June 17 2006,11:48) Actually, Nick, I found something that answers your question: Quote This clearly rules out one common use of autologous blood—preoperative collection, storage, and later infusion of a patient’s own blood. In such procedure, this is what is done: Prior to elective surgery, some units of a person’s whole blood are banked or the red cells are separated, frozen, and stored. Then if it seems that the patient needs blood during or following surgery, his own stored blood can be returned to him. Current anxieties about blood-borne diseases have made this use of autologous blood popular. Jehovah’s Witnesses, though, DO NOT accept this procedure. We have long appreciated that such stored blood certainly is no longer part of the person. It has been completely removed from him, so it should be disposed of in line with God’s Law: “You should pour it out upon the ground as water.”—Deuteronomy 12:24. In a somewhat different process, autologous blood can be diverted from a patient to a hemodialysis device (artificial kidney) or a heart-lung pump. The blood flows out through a tube to the artificial organ that pumps and filters (or oxygenates) it, and then it returns to the patient’s circulatory system. Some Christians have permitted this if the equipment is not primed with stored blood. They have viewed the external tubing as elongating their circulatory system so that blood might pass through an artificial organ. They have felt that the blood in this closed circuit was still part of them and did not need to be ‘poured out.
What, though, if the flow of such autologous blood stopped briefly, such as if a heart-lung machine is shut down while the surgeon checks the integrity of coronary-bypass grafts?Actually, the Biblical emphasis is not on the issue of continuous flow. Even aside from surgery, a person’s heart might stop briefly and then resume. His circulatory system would not have to be emptied and his blood disposed of just because blood flow had stopped during the cardiac arrest. Hence, a Christian having to decide whether to permit his blood to be diverted through some external device ought to focus, not primarily on whether a brief interruption in flow might occur, but on whether he conscientiously felt that the diverted blood would still be part of his circulatory system.—Galatians 6:5.
watchtower 89, 3/1 30-1
Hi David,I have to say that I disagree with this particular reasoning and premise here. What difference does it make whether one's blood was taken and transfused back to him via IV bag or through a dialysis machine? It does leave the body and come into contact with foreign objects! Dare I say that the reasoning here to accept one thing and reject the other is man-made? Who gets to decide when it is ok to have one's own blood transfused back to him/her because in one case it is stored in a bag and frozen and in another case it takes a long trip round a machine and back into the body! One is as artificial and external to the body as the next! Come on!
It should be SPIRITUALLY acceptable across the board here or unacceptable.If I remember my anatomy and physiology correctly, even in the cases of mother and child (fetus), there is no cross transfusion. Baby keeps his/her own blood and so does mother. Nutrients and waste material cross the placenta but not the body fluids. Don't we serve an awesome God?
I understand this is because baby is a soul unto itself and so is mother and so their circulatory systems are independent of each other and do not mix.
Quote (david @ June 17 2006,11:43) Quote If you had bleeding gums or a bleeding nose would it be sin to swallow that blood?
A kid once asked me if it was cannabalism to eat your own pimple. I'll answer your question if you answer mine.
Eiewww!Quote Quote Could you be transfused with stored blood taken from your own body?It is often done. Ok, Nick, so you DO know some doctor stuff. I knew so.
While the Bible says to abstain from blood, I believe your question is one that enters an area where personal conscience is involved.
Before getting to that, let me just put down some things:
Bloodless Medicine and Surgery
Some of the Methods
Fluids: Ringer’s lactate solution, dextran, hydroxyethyl starch, and others are used to maintain blood volume, preventing hypovolemic shock. Some fluids now being tested can transport oxygen.
Drugs: Genetically engineered proteins can stimulate the production of red blood cells (erythropoietin), blood platelets (interleukin-11), and various white blood cells (GM-CSF, G-CSF). Other medications greatly reduce blood loss during surgery (aprotinin, antifibrinolytics) or help to reduce acute bleeding (desmopressin).
Biological hemostats: Collagen and cellulose woven pads are used to stop bleeding by direct application. Fibrin glues and sealants can plug puncture wounds or cover large areas of bleeding tissue.
Blood salvage: Salvaging machines recover blood that is lost during surgery or trauma. The blood is cleansed and can be returned to the patient in a closed circuit. In extreme cases, liters of blood can be recovered using such a system.
Surgical tools: Some devices cut and seal blood vessels simultaneously. Other devices can seal bleeding on large areas of tissue. Laparoscopic and minimally invasive instruments allow surgeries to be performed without the blood loss associated with large incisions.
Surgical techniques: Thorough operative planning, including consultation with experienced clinicians, helps the surgical team to avoid complications. Prompt action to stop bleeding is essential. Delays greater than 24 hours can greatly increase patient mortality. Dividing large surgeries into several smaller ones decreases total blood loss.
***Preventing and Controlling Hemorrhage Without Blood Transfusion
1. Surgical Devices:
a. Electrocautery
b. Laser surgery
c. Argon beam coagulator
d. Gamma knife radiosurgery
2. Techniques and Devices to Locate and Arrest Internal Bleeding:
a. Endoscopy to identify location of internal bleeding
b. Flexible suction coagulator electrode (Papp, J. P., JAMA, November 1, 1976, pages 2076-9)
c. Arterial embolization (JAMA, November 18, 1974, pages 952-3)
d. Controlled hypotension (until bleeding can be stopped)
e. Tissue adhesives (Dr. S. E. Silvas, MWN, September 5, 1977)
3. Operative and Anesthetic Techniques:
a. Hypotensive anesthesia (lowering the blood pressure)
b. Hypothermia (lowering body temperature)
c. Intraoperative hemodilution
d. Intraoperative blood salvage machines, e.g., “cell-saver”
e. Meticulous hemostasis and operative technique
f. Increased members in surgical team to reduce operative time
4. Monitoring Devices:
a. Transcutaneous oxygen monitor
b. Oximeter
5. Volume Expanders:
a. Crystalloids
(1) Ringer’s lactate (Eichner, E. R., Surgery Annual, January 1982, pages 85-99)
(2) Normal saline
b. Colloids
(1) Dextran
(2) Gelatin (Howell, P. J., Anaesthesia, January 1987, pages 44-8)
(3) Hetastarch
6. Chemical Hemostats:
a. Avitene
b. Gelfoam
c. Oxycel
d. Surgicel
e. Many others
7. Therapeutics for Low Hemoglobin:
a. Oxygen
b. Hyperbaric oxygen chamber (Hart, G. B., JAMA, May 20, 1974, pages 1028-9)
c. Iron dextran (Dudrick, S. J., Archives of Surgery, June 1985, pages 721-7)
d. Folic acid
e. Erythropoietin—stimulates bone marrow to produce blood
f. Anabolic steroids, e.g., Decadurabolin or synthetic growth hormone
g. Vitamin B-12 intramuscular injection
h. Vitamin C
i. Vitamin E (especially in newborn)
8. External Measures:
a. For bleeding:
(1) Applied direct pressure
(2) Ice packs
(3) Positioning of body (e.g., raising injured limb to slow bleeding)
b. For shock:
(1) Apply pressure cuffs to legs
(2) Antishock trousers
(3) Raising both legs to maintain blood pressure
9. Drugs for Patients With Blood Problems:
a. DDAVP, desmopressin (Kobrinsky, N. L., Lancet, May 26, 1984, pages 1145-8)
b. E-aminocaproic acid (Schwartz, S. I., Contemporary Surgery, May 1977, pages 37-40)
c. Vitamin K
d. Bioflavonoids (Physician’s Desk Reference)
e. Carbazochrome salicylate
f. Tranexamic acid (Transfusion Medicine Topic Update, May 1989)
g. Danazol
10. Other Points:
a. A moderate fall in blood pressure to about 90-100 mm of Hg may help bleeding to stop by natural clotting in a cut artery
b. Rule of minimum 10g hemoglobin for surgery has no valid scientific support
c. Surgical patients have survived with hemoglobin as low as 1.8 (Anaesthesia, 1987, Volume 42, pages 44-8)
d. Lower hemoglobin results in lower blood viscosity, in turn reducing the load on the heart and improving tissue perfusion and oxygenation
******
Now, on autotransfusion (one's own blood),
As I've said, it's a matter of conscience. Jehovah, to whom we owe our life decreed that blood should not be consumed.
In the Law for ancient Israel, God limited the use of blood because it represents life. He decreed: “The soul [or life] of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself have put it upon the altar for you to make atonement for your souls.” What if a man killed an animal for food? God said: “He must in that case pour its blood out and cover it with dust.” (Leviticus 17:11, 13)
((Professor Frank H. Gorman writes: “The pouring out of the blood is best understood as an act of reverence that demonstrates respect for the life of the animal and, thus, respect for God, who created and continues to care for that life.”))
Jehovah repeated this command again and again. (Deuteronomy 12:16, 24; 15:23) The Jewish Soncino Chumash notes: “The blood must not be stored but rendered unfit for consumption by pouring it on the ground.” No Israelite was to appropriate, store, and use the blood of ANOTHER creature, whose life belonged to God.
The obligation to keep the Mosaic Law ended when the Messiah died. Yet, God’s view of the sacredness of blood remains. . (Acts 15:28, 29; 21:25)As nick pointed out, occasionally, a doctor will urge a patient to deposit his own blood weeks before surgery (preoperative autologous blood donation, or PAD) so that if the need arises, he could transfuse the patient with his own st
ored blood.
However, such collecting, storing, and transfusing of blood directly contradicts what is said in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Blood is not to be stored; it is to be poured out—returned to God, as it were. Granted, the Mosaic Law is not in force now. Nevertheless, Jehovah’s Witnesses respect the principles God included in it, and they are determined to ‘abstain from blood.’However, Nick, other procedures or tests involving an individual’s own blood are not so clearly in conflict with God’s stated principles.
For example, during certain surgical procedures, some blood may be diverted from the body in a process called hemodilution. The blood remaining in the patient is diluted. Later, his blood in the external circuit is directed back into him, thus bringing his blood count closer to normal. Similarly, blood that flows into a wound may be captured and filtered so that the red cells can be returned to the patient; this is called cell salvage. In a different process, blood may be directed to a machine that temporarily carries on a function normally handled by body organs (for example, the heart, lungs, or kidneys). The blood from the machine is then returned to the patient. In other procedures, blood is diverted to a separator (centrifuge) so that damaging or defective portions of it can be eliminated. Or the goal may be to isolate some of a blood component and apply that elsewhere on the body. There are also tests in which a quantity of blood is withdrawn in order to tag it or to mix it with medicine, whereupon it is put back into the patient.A Christian must decide for himself how his own blood will be handled in the course of a surgical procedure, medical test, or current therapy.
david
Informative, David. Thanks.
Quote (david @ June 17 2006,06:48) Actually, Nick, I found something that answers your question: Quote This clearly rules out one common use of autologous blood—preoperative collection, storage, and later infusion of a patient’s own blood. In such procedure, this is what is done: Prior to elective surgery, some units of a person’s whole blood are banked or the red cells are separated, frozen, and stored. Then if it seems that the patient needs blood during or following surgery, his own stored blood can be returned to him. Current anxieties about blood-borne diseases have made this use of autologous blood popular. Jehovah’s Witnesses, though, DO NOT accept this procedure. We have long appreciated that such stored blood certainly is no longer part of the person. It has been completely removed from him, so it should be disposed of in line with God’s Law: “You should pour it out upon the ground as water.”—Deuteronomy 12:24. In a somewhat different process, autologous blood can be diverted from a patient to a hemodialysis device (artificial kidney) or a heart-lung pump. The blood flows out through a tube to the artificial organ that pumps and filters (or oxygenates) it, and then it returns to the patient’s circulatory system. Some Christians have permitted this if the equipment is not primed with stored blood. They have viewed the external tubing as elongating their circulatory system so that blood might pass through an artificial organ. They have felt that the blood in this closed circuit was still part of them and did not need to be ‘poured out.
What, though, if the flow of such autologous blood stopped briefly, such as if a heart-lung machine is shut down while the surgeon checks the integrity of coronary-bypass grafts?Actually, the Biblical emphasis is not on the issue of continuous flow. Even aside from surgery, a person’s heart might stop briefly and then resume. His circulatory system would not have to be emptied and his blood disposed of just because blood flow had stopped during the cardiac arrest. Hence, a Christian having to decide whether to permit his blood to be diverted through some external device ought to focus, not primarily on whether a brief interruption in flow might occur, but on whether he conscientiously felt that the diverted blood would still be part of his circulatory system.—Galatians 6:5.
watchtower 89, 3/1 30-1
To david.To point out the obvious:
That is what the Watchtower says, but what does the Spirit say?Romans 8:14
because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.If you are a good JW, I know that you will only parrot off their stuff and not venture beyond that. But can I say that being a good JW doesn't save you. You need to be born again. From here you can be led by the Spirit of God. God can then teach you all things. This is better than anything man can do for you.
Quote To point out the obvious:
That is what the Watchtower says, but what does the Spirit say?The spirit says to 'abstain from blood,' T8. And, it gives God's thinking on this throughout the Hebrew scriptures.
Quote If you are a good JW, I know that you will only parrot off their stuff and not venture beyond that.
Nick asked what Jehovah's Witnesses believed in this regard. I answered by quoting them. If someone asked what you believe, I would obviously quote you. Would you argue with me for quoting you? I was answering his question T8.Quote God can then teach you all things. This is better than anything man can do for you.
So what are we doing on this forum t8? Are not you a man? If you say something am I to disregard it completely because you are a man?It's not where it comes from, but whether it is supported by God's Word.
Quote (david @ June 19 2006,19:34) So what are we doing on this forum t8? Are not you a man? If you say something am I to disregard it completely because you are a man? It's not where it comes from, but whether it is supported by God's Word.
Yes that is right if it is supported by God's word. But when it comes down to a conflict between God's word and JW doctrine, which do you choose? I personally hope that I choose scripture over any denominational teaching.With regards to your or the JWs version of abstaining from blood, it seems to me that I should drain my body of all blood. You say that abstain means in 'any way'.
If you are true to your belief then why do you allow blood in your own body?
In Canada, JW's used to have to sign a piece of paper saying they wouldn't hold the hospital liable because of not using blood.
Now, interestingly, people have to sign a piece of paper saying they won't hold the hospital liable when they do use blood.Nick, do you know the stats on those who die from complications due to tainted blood?
ACTS 15:19-20
“Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.”ACTS 15:28-29
“For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!””ACTS 21:25
“As for the believers from among the nations, we have sent out, rendering our decision that they should keep themselves from what is sacrificed to idols as well as from blood and what is strangled and from fornication.””Hi all:
The commandment to abstain from blood was given to the nation of Israel because it was the blood of the innocent animal which was given for the atonement of their souls when they had sinned. (Leviticus 17:11) This was symbolic of the life blood that was shed by the innocent Lamb of God as the propiation for the sins of all of humanity. This was a perfect sacrifice which does not have to be repeated.
The life of the flesh is in the blood and so when you lose your blood your body dies. Personally, I want to live as long as possible so that I can reach as many as possible with the gospel. There is no commandment from the Lord that I should abstain from blood transfusions, and so if I need a blood transfusion in order to continue my work in the flesh for Jesus, then please do all you can doctor to help me to live so that I can serve my master.
This doctrine is a man made doctrine like the “Trinity”, and the big problem is that if someone does not agree with thier teaching, they threaten to excommunicate you.
Jesus states: “Not that which goeth inot the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth this defileth a man”. (Matt. 15:11) And then to the disciples for their understanding he says, “Do not ye yet understand whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, but those things which proceed from the heart defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adultries, forications thefts, false witness, blasphemies; these are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. (Matt. 15:27-20)
Romans 14:2 states: “Him that is weak in the faith receive ye but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things; another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him”. But also, it may be good to read the entire chapter. Romans 14:22-23 states: “Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is the man that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damed if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin”.
I personally do not like to eat pork because I believe that to make a steady diet of it will be bad for your health, but if I go somewhere to visit someone, and they serve pork then I eat it without question because of the above scriptures and also 1 Co. 10:27 which states: “If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and he be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you eat, asking no questions for conscience sake”.
A traveling Apostle or evangelist my never know what someone my serve him for dinner in his travels for the Lord.
Hey Nine. How goes it? You say:
Quote and so if I need a blood transfusion in order to continue my work in the flesh for Jesus, then please do all you can doctor to help me to live We feel this principle in Matthew applies, and that our life, means very little if we go against godly principles:
MATTHEW 16:24-25
“Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me. For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.”I have a question I've been meaning to ask.
What is God's view of blood? Why is it given special importance in the Bible?
What is it compared to? Why is it often called the “soul” or life of the creature?
Why has blood always, even before the law been something that Jehovah has special laws about?Quote Jesus states: “Not that which goeth inot the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth this defileth a man”. (Matt. 15:11)
Was he speaking of blood, something that has repeatedly been shown to be something not to be taken in? Obviously, he wasn't.Quote There is no commandment from the Lord that I should abstain from blood transfusions
Blood transfusions didn't exist back then. But Bible principles can always be applied. As an example, cigarettes didn't exist back then either. But we are told not to defile ourselves, and to keep clean, because Jehovah is clean, and to love your neighbor. So would a worshipper of Jehovah defile himself and harm his neighbor by smoking cigarettes? The Bible doesn't specifically say so. But we can't expect it to. We learn about Jehovah, what he holds as important and act on that, on Bible principles. Jesus often taught in principles, not specific rules. (mat 5-7)
So I ask this, as an opening to this discussion. Can we look at how Jehovah views blood and why he holds it as he does and why there are these commandments that run through the Bible, from before the law, to the time of Christians.david
Don't get me wrong. Jehovah's Witnesses want to live. We hold life as sacred. We don't endanger our lives. We don't pollute our bodies. We obey the laws including the ones that keep us safe. We want to live.
And when a Witness of Jehovah finds himself on an operating table, it is made known to the doctors what methods can be used that don't involve blood. And there are a lot. Blood is a very dangerous way to operate and is only considered necessary by surgeons in a very very small percentage of operations. And really, it shouldn't be used, if only because it is so dangerous a way to do things. The complications that can result are numerous.If Jehovah has always equated blood with life, and it is to be poured back to the ground and it the Christian Greek scriptures tell Christians to “abstain from blood,” and calls it a necessary thing, then I think this is something that requires a lot more research on our parts and not the sort of research that involves bashing JW's, but the kind of research that involves seeing into Jehovah's view of blood and why the Bible says what it does.
david
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