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Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 18 2007,07:09) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 18 2007,06:35) ++”Stu, a heathen is someone who has no god; they godless. I personally don't think you qualify. Sorry to disappoint you, but I am an atheist.
Stuart
Why are you here then?
Hi Not3in1As I wrote on t8's evolution thread, I am here to represent science, at least to the extent that I am capable. It seemed to me that the thread was becoming an ignorant attack on science. I have strayed into other areas but the main thrust is that I care about the truth and am dismayed when people who are ignorant about what the theory of Evolution by Natural Selection actually says, tell lies about it.
Stuart
Quote Remember, even Jesus ate with the tax collector's and sinners. Maybe Jesus even ate birthday cake? Who knows for sure. Just something to ponder….. Mat 22:17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
Mat 22:18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
Mat 22:19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
Mat 22:20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
Mat 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.Give to the world what is there's and to God what is God's! They are not the SAME are they?
You have to make a choice what is Caesar's and what is God's.
Peace and much love,
Ken
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 18 2007,07:42) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 18 2007,07:09) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 18 2007,06:35) ++”Stu, a heathen is someone who has no god; they godless. I personally don't think you qualify. Sorry to disappoint you, but I am an atheist.
Stuart
Why are you here then?
Hi Not3in1As I wrote on t8's evolution thread, I am here to represent science, at least to the extent that I am capable. It seemed to me that the thread was becoming an ignorant attack on science. I have strayed into other areas but the main thrust is that I care about the truth and am dismayed when people who are ignorant about what the theory of Evolution by Natural Selection actually says, tell lies about it.
Stuart
Gotcha. Well, thanks Stu for getting back to me on this. I'm glad you're here regardless of whether we hold the same beliefs. Of course, I pray that you will know the love of the heavenly Father and his Son who died for you….. I'm sure you don't mind if I pray for you?
Just like I don't mind opening my mind to science and what it has to offer all of us on this planet.Hey Not3, this is somewhat long, so bear with me. I tried to respond to most everything you stated:
Quote You post with such antagonizing interrogation! Eight posts with so many questions attached that I've lost track! My goodness. Any single one of the questions, if you like the eight of them were too much. It is true that I am frustrated, as you say, that you repeatedly don't answer these questions.
Quote I don't really believe you want the answers to any of the questions you've asked me, I believe you want to argue. I am not interested in arguing with you, brother. You believe I don't want answers to those questions, because that is what you want to believe. Why do I keep asking these questions and you keep sidestepping them?
Quote You do not seem to possess a teachable spirit – rather, you are the teacher! To those who already believe they have the truth, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to show them any other view. Here's the thing. You are unwilling to tell me your view. I've asked and asked and asked. I then, narrowed the questions down and put them in bold. You simply want me to believe that birthdays are ok and not question what they are, where they came from. Is that the case? I am not the teacher, but a frustrated student who has gotten no answers. So why should I change my view? When someone refuses to answer questions, there's usually a reason–the answers to those questions wouldn't fit in with their beliefs.
So they do what you are doing. Avoiding and attacking my use of questions. That makes me a little sad.Quote Still, I will attempt to answer your questions. If you do not find the answers satisfactory, you'll just have to pray for me because I am not interested in communicating much with you; you like to argue and that does not interest me. Oh, sorry, I really didn't think you were even going to try. I should have read this post in full first.
Quote God condemn's candles on a cake? Where?
What's the reason the candles are on the cake–ANCIENT PAGAN FALSE WORSHIP.–This he does condemn.
Doesn't it strike you as odd that you grew up doing this strange thing of putting candles in your cake? Did you never ask where it began? Of course he condemns neither cake nor candles. Nor does he condemn knives. But one can use them for vile purposes, can't one? And using cake and candles to imitate and replicate ancient paganism…..??? Do you really find this acceptable?Quote David, with all due respect, you have not shown me where God *hates* birthday celebrations. You have a lot of words written on various posts, but you have still yet to prove your point. I asked you several time in simple point form: Does God hate paganism?
For some reason you can't or refuse to answer that. Because that would be one step away from admitting where this custom originated.If the Bible said: “God hates trees.”
And I said that therefore God hates populars, you would probably say: “No where does the Bible say God hates populars.
Yet, I've done the math. Populars are trees. Therefore….well, if it was true that God hates trees, the popular being a tree….one could surmise that Yes, God hates populars.So either please stop saying that the Bible doesn't say God hates birthdays or answer the question: What is the origin of birthday celebrations?
Because we both know that the answer to that question is a word that God doesn't like.You say:
Quote It's pretty clear that anything having to do with gazing at a women lustfully is sin.
And I say: It's pretty clear that imitating ancient false worship, magic, mythology, with astrology connections is also obviously sin.Yet, nowhere does the Bible say “pornography is wrong” and no where does it say “birthdays are wrong.”
Quote Would you agree that sacrificing meat to idols was pagen? And yet we who are free in Christ are allowed to eat this meat! Right, but are you allowed to take part in the sacrifice? Or was it talking about eating the meat later that is sold in a meat market?
I have no problem using the candles that were on a cake for a birthday party for some other use. They are just candles. The meat is just meat. The cake is just cake.
But you have no freedom at all to partake in the sacrifices to false gods by partaking in that pagan false worship? Or do you think you do? Do you not see some difference?Quote What would be the difference between meat sacrificed to idols and say a pagen birthday cake? Nothing: If you are actually partaking in both celebrations or rites. But I imagine you would never join in with the pagans who are sacrificing meat to a false god, would you?
Question: Would you ever imitate them? Create a fake alter. Mimmick their actions? If they did this on a certain day, would you create a celebration out of it, and copy that day, copy their actions?Quote I am also free to give and receive gifts at any time. . . .Am I a slave to the gift? This is a silly idea, wouldn't you agree?
Try skipping your child's next birthday party. Every addict says they can quite at any time and calls it silly. But they can't quite. They are enslaved to it. Yes, you're free to give at any time. But you MUST give at certain times and aren't really free in that respect.Quote Quote
The question is: Would borrowing pagan practices that are rooted in magic and mythology be “innocent”?
Please answer this one.Would eating meat sacrificed to idols be OK? See, this is the thing, th
ere are really no gods at all except for our Father. You are giving the pagens more power than they deserve brother.You forgot to answer that one. And I even said “please.” You pretty much have to go out of your way to “accidently” copy paganism.
Quote Their “customs” don't mean anything to me.
And the internet means nothing to me….except, I'm using it right now. And you have followed the tradition of your ancestors who decided that imitation is the greatest form of flattery.Quote I eat their meat! I do not imitate their worship.
–“meat” is a very basic thing that everyone everywhere understands.
–Meat sacrifced on an alter is a very specific thing that's bad.
–The meat isn't intrinsically bad.–Cake is a very basic thing that everyone understands and eats.
–Cake with candles on the date of ones birth is a very specific thing that traces it's roots in paganism
–Cake in itself isn't intrinsically bad, nor are candles, nor celebrations.Quote These folks have their own “gods” and there are tons of them. Do their practices mean anything to me? No!
IF THAT WERE TRUE, WHY IMITATE THEM?That's my whole point!
I'm going to repeat what you said:
“These folks have their own “gods” and there are tons of them. Do their practices mean anything to me?”
Yet, you go out of your way to imitate them and copy them? YEt, it means “nothing” to you. When something means “nothing” to me, I usually don't copy it.Santa means nothing to me, but I like to put on a red suit and beard every Dec 25th.
Machine guns mean nothing to me,but I like to wear a copy of one around my neck.
These statements make no sense.Their practice of lighting tapers and putting them on round honey cakes to keep the spirits away because you're closer to the spirt world on the day of your birth and the well wishes of happy birthday …..
mean nothing to you.Yet, you copy their actions.
Does that make sense?
Quote Someone was keeping track of their birthdays. I wonder if they had some sort of recognition of the day? I bet they did. The Jews certainly didn't. They didn't copy the pagans around them at least. There is no record whatsoever of them celebrating birthdays as such.
You say you'll look into this:
“Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the heathen are dismayed by them. For the customs of the people are vain” (Jer. 10:2, 3).That would be good.
david
25 Everything that is sold in a meat market keep eating, making no inquiry on account of YOUR conscience; 26 for “to Jehovah belong the earth and that which fills it.” 27 If anyone of the unbelievers invites YOU and YOU wish to go, proceed to eat everything that is set before YOU, making no inquiry on account of YOUR conscience. 28 But if anyone should say to YOU: “This is something offered in sacrifice,” do not eat on account of the one that disclosed it and on account of conscience. 29 “Conscience,” I say, not your own, but that of the other person. For why should it be that my freedom is judged by another person’s conscience? 30 If I am partaking with thanks, why am I to be spoken of abusively over that for which I give thanks?
We notice that it's not talking about stepping up to the alter while the meat is being sacrificed and joining in in that bad thing.
It's talking about buying the meat later in a meat market.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with the meat.If a birthday cake is half eaten and sent back to the store, it is still just a cake.
But what does that have to do with actually taking part in the sacrifice or celebration?Quote I've heard you say this before. Where is this “fact” that the earliest Christians “refused” to celebrate birthdays? Where can I find this fact? Thanks.
You can find this fact in the pages of history. One of the first places I found this “fact” was an encyclopedia in my parents house. I suggest you check any source that discusses history. Any encyclopedia. Any reference work to the early Christians or first few centuries.Quote You presuppose that I know the history of early Christians that refused birthdays, the fact is that I don't have this information. Again, a little less hostility and more information would go a long way in getting your message accross.
I would have thought that with all this argumentation, you would have done some definite research.
A couple minutes on the internet and I found this:
http://www.cogwriter.com/birthdays.htm
It quotes several references of those who lived in that time.Quote Are you trying to say that my freedom to celebrate birthdays and Christmas is harming you?
I'm saying that I can't really consider you a follower of Christ if you cling to pagan traditions. I can't see how the two are reconcilable. What i'm saying is that you know these scriptures, about stumbling, and brought them up yourself. Yet,you cling to this tradition. Why? For whose benefit? Yours or your brothers?Quote I'm not sure who I said this to one time, it might have been Ken, but I really don't remember now; if one of you brother's who do not believe in celebrating Christmas came to my home during such a holiday – I would definitely honor your feelings and guard myself towards putting any stumbling block in your path. Isn't this what Jesus taught his disciples and us – to think of other's and to love one another deeply? Yes, it is.
Quote Romans 14:2
One man's faith allows him to eat everything [even birthday cake], but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.I've eaten cake. I just don't partake in that pagan tradition, per sey.
Quote The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Eating cake is only a part of “the birthday celebration.” You keep speaking as though I have something agianst cake. I probably eat more cake than you. It's the birthday celebration wer'e speaking of.
Quote Remember, even Jesus ate with the tax collector's and sinners. Maybe Jesus even ate birthday cake?
No, he didn't. None of the Jews ever ever did. It is a fact of history.david
Quote (david @ Sep. 18 2007,15:37) Try skipping your child's next birthday party. Every addict says they can quite at any time and calls it silly. But they can't quite. They are enslaved to it. Yes, you're free to give at any time. But you MUST give at certain times and aren't really free in that respect.
David,I have stopped here, at the above quote in your lengthly post, and I will read no further.
You do not know my heart. Why then do you think you are fit to judge it?
We HAVE “skipped” birthdays before with our children (not that this is any of your business, but I offer it here because you seem to be so smug in the “knowing” what I must and must not do regarding our family traditions). My children have opted to give to various charity's their time and money during their birthday's. My children have big hearts (like their Mommy!). We are not a slave to any tradition of men. We are free.
As I said before, you wish to argue and I do not.
Goodnight to you,
Mandy++”Gotcha. Well, thanks Stu for getting back to me on this. I'm glad you're here regardless of whether we hold the same beliefs. Of course, I pray that you will know the love of the heavenly Father and his Son who died for you…..
Yes, I've never known WHY he had to “die for me”. Add that to the countless killings (most by God) in the Old Testament, and it starts to look like a belief system best avoided! Why all the killing?
++”I'm sure you don't mind if I pray for you?
That is very sweet of you. If you do, please don't tell me that you do: a study on the effect of prayer for cardiac surgery patients showed that prayer has absolutely no effect, except on those who had been operated on and knew they were being prayed for, where the mortality rate ROSE slightly (possibly they became stressed knowing that they were so ill they needed prayer!). Other meta studies of research give a similar result. Prayer is as effective as a placebo. I personally think there are more effective ways of being a good person in the world.
++”Just like I don't mind opening my mind to science and what it has to offer all of us on this planet.
Yes you seem to be one of the few willing to do so. Good for you.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
I suppose you are right when you look at the “killings” in the OT and even the death of God's Son, Jesus, and wonder – why? Why all the death? I've wondered this too. But when you look at nature, sometimes it becomes necessary for one thing or plant to die so that it insures the survival of the species. In other words, some plants give off seeds only when they die, so that in this way, the species is continued from generation to generation.
I guess, viewed in this light, in was necessary for Jesus to die so that we can live. When his life ended, he insured our survival. That is certainly one way to look at it. I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to analyze it. But, OK, I won't tell you when I'm praying for you
I'll just whisper your name towards the heavens….. Because this is my way of showing you that I care, and that I believe in the power of prayer. I've just had too many “experiences” with God to say it's irony. One thing you can't argue with is personal testimony! 
Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 18 2007,18:09) Hi Stu, I suppose you are right when you look at the “killings” in the OT and even the death of God's Son, Jesus, and wonder – why? Why all the death? I've wondered this too. But when you look at nature, sometimes it becomes necessary for one thing or plant to die so that it insures the survival of the species. In other words, some plants give off seeds only when they die, so that in this way, the species is continued from generation to generation.
I guess, viewed in this light, in was necessary for Jesus to die so that we can live. When his life ended, he insured our survival. That is certainly one way to look at it. I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to analyze it. But, OK, I won't tell you when I'm praying for you
I'll just whisper your name towards the heavens….. Because this is my way of showing you that I care, and that I believe in the power of prayer. I've just had too many “experiences” with God to say it's irony. One thing you can't argue with is personal testimony!
Try this quiz at your favourite site and mine (!):http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1100/godswrathquiz.html
The tally is repeated here: (OT body count >2,270,365):
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006….ed.html
What do you think?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 18 2007,19:48) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 18 2007,18:09) Hi Stu, I suppose you are right when you look at the “killings” in the OT and even the death of God's Son, Jesus, and wonder – why? Why all the death? I've wondered this too. But when you look at nature, sometimes it becomes necessary for one thing or plant to die so that it insures the survival of the species. In other words, some plants give off seeds only when they die, so that in this way, the species is continued from generation to generation.
I guess, viewed in this light, in was necessary for Jesus to die so that we can live. When his life ended, he insured our survival. That is certainly one way to look at it. I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to analyze it. But, OK, I won't tell you when I'm praying for you
I'll just whisper your name towards the heavens….. Because this is my way of showing you that I care, and that I believe in the power of prayer. I've just had too many “experiences” with God to say it's irony. One thing you can't argue with is personal testimony!
Try this quiz at your favourite site and mine (!):http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1100/godswrathquiz.html
The tally is repeated here: (OT body count >2,270,365):
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006….ed.html
What do you think?
Stuart
Hi Stu,Well, to be fair, the site you listed first is completely anti-God, it would have been more interesting to me if it had more of a balanced overview of the topic of killing in the Bible.
The second blog (is this your blog?) was kinda interesting. What I found interesting the most was the feedback that this person received. It did tend to show some blindness on the side of those who just ignored the killing facts of the Bible.
With that said, I'd have to say that there were specific reasons why some of this people were put to death. Most of the reasons had to do with unbelief……
Here is a challenge for you Stu (I first wrote “Stud” instead of Stu; isn't that funny?) anyway, you have trained yourself to debate the non-existence of God, have you ever tried to turn the tables and do the opposite? In college we were forced to write a paper in favor of something we abhorred (I chose racism). It was the most difficult paper I ever had to write. But I learned some very valuable lessons. Try it. Write a paper or whatever, in favor of the Christian testimony. I dare you……..stud.
Sorry all – we've gotten off the subject of birthday and Christimas celebrations.
Stu, reply on another more appropriate thread and I'll find it. Thanks.
Quote David, I have stopped here, at the above quote in your lengthly post, and I will read no further.
You do not know my heart. Why then do you think you are fit to judge it?
We HAVE “skipped” birthdays before with our children (not that this is any of your business, but I offer it here because you seem to be so smug in the “knowing” what I must and must not do regarding our family traditions). My children have opted to give to various charity's their time and money during their birthday's. My children have big hearts (like their Mommy!). We are not a slave to any tradition of men. We are free.
As I said before, you wish to argue and I do not.
Goodnight to you,
MandyI am sorry Mandy. I have a lot to say and it often doesn't come out with the tact it deserves. The ones I've seen are ensnared in these celebrations. They have little choice in the matter. I don't know your heart. Nor am I judge of anything. All I know is that God hates paganism. And that to imitate pagan practices would be clearly wrong–regardless of whether you have a good heart or not.
“Learn not the way of the heathen. . . .” (Jer. 10:2, 3).
It just bothers me so much that you can't see what you're saying.
Quote I eat their meat! I do not imitate their worship. –“meat” is a very basic thing that everyone everywhere understands.
–Meat sacrifced on an alter is a very specific thing that's bad.
–The meat isn't intrinsically bad. It's what they were doing with it that was bad.–Cake is a very basic thing that everyone understands and eats.
–Cake with candles on the date of ones birth is a very specific thing that traces it's roots in paganism
–Cake in itself isn't intrinsically bad, nor are candles, nor celebrations. It's what they were doing with it that was bad.I never did expect you to suddenly say: You're right.
But I did expect you to consider my questions, so I could understand better how someone could defend this form of imitation.david
If you want refernces to the fact that the Jews nor early Christians (gentiles included) never celebrated birthdays and if you want their origins, and why they were originally celebrated and how, go here:
Quote (david @ Sep. 19 2007,10:49) If you want refernces to the fact that the Jews nor early Christians (gentiles included) never celebrated birthdays and if you want their origins, and why they were originally celebrated and how, go here:
Thanks, David.I'll check this site out and give this all some serious consideration. Seriously.
And thanks for your toned-down post……it makes me want to hear what you are saying. I will investigate this further. I do want to please the LORD. I'm not attached to any given tradition in my life. However, I am pretty attached to my Lord and to my God!
Truth comes to all of us……eventually.
Quote (david @ Sep. 19 2007,10:49) If you want refernces to the fact that the Jews nor early Christians (gentiles included) never celebrated birthdays and if you want their origins, and why they were originally celebrated and how, go here:
Great website! I just took a peak and it looks like it has a ton of information! I wonder who is the one behind it all? I'm too tired to really look at it tonight (It's 11:30 p.m.), but I'll give it a good look tomorrow night.Thanks, David.
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