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Questions:
Is paganism good or bad?
How is Jehovah's memory?
How would Jehovah feel about me copying false worship that he hates?
It is a fact that the earliest Christians (those who followed Jesus and those who came right after them) REFUSED TO CELEBRATE BIRTHDAYS.
Yes, you can say it was because they were mostly Jewish and the Jews didn't take part in such heathen customs, or you can say whatever. What we do know, without a doubt, so far uncontested on this board, at the very least, is that the earliest Christians purposefully rejected the birthday celebration.
Were they wrong?
Or were those who came later during the foretold apostasy wrong? (that period of spiritual drowsiness, “while men were sleeping”, (weeds in the field illustration))
Who was wrong?
I know you want to block our history and shut your eyes to what the earliest Christians did, but the fact remains that one group is wrong.
Not 3, you say some of my thoughts and questions are “just silly.”
Are any of the above questions in bold silly? If so, could you point out why. If not, could you answer them, please. Because I don't think they are silly. And I think they are questions that you have avoided.
While driving on a highway, we see ahead of us some children walking dangerously close to the road. Do we continue driving at the maximum speed allowed just because we have the legal right to do so? No, we slow down to avoid possible danger to the children. At times, a similar willingness to slow down, or yield, is called for in our relationship with our fellow believers or others. We may be doing something that we have a perfect right to do. No Bible principles are being violated. Nevertheless, if we could offend others or harm those with a weaker conscience, Christian love will move us to act with caution. (Romans 14:13, 15)
Would you consider this an infringement on your freedom to do whatever you like? Would you slow down? Or is this just silly?
Quote Unbelievers keep Christmas and Easter as well as the deceived –kenrch.
Hey Kenrch,
I can't remember the exact numbers, but I believe 2/3s of the world celebrate christmas while only 1/3 claims to be Christian. Or something like that. The vast majority of those who celebrate Christmas (wiccan's, buddhists, etc) do not even believe in Jesus. So is Christmas a “Christian” holiday? Or is it a worldly holiday given a “Christian” name?
Why are you doing this again ,did we not go through this before? You know what I am beginning to think that this Website is nothing then a Gossip Site were others leave their frustration out onto the keyboard on their computers. God help us all.:blues:
David,
You post with such antagonizing interrogation! Eight posts with so many questions attached that I've lost track! My goodness.
I don't really believe you want the answers to any of the questions you've asked me, I believe you want to argue. I am not interested in arguing with you, brother. You have your personal beliefs and ways that you interpret scripture. I do not share a lot of your views on scripture and their meanings. You do not seem to possess a teachable spirit – rather, you are the teacher! To those who already believe they have the truth, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to show them any other view.
Still, I will attempt to answer your questions. If you do not find the answers satisfactory, you'll just have to pray for me because I am not interested in communicating much with you; you like to argue and that does not interest me.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Sep. 17 2007,15:42) others leave their frustration out onto the keyboard on their computers
Mrs.,
I agree with you!!Quote Yet you are still bound and tied and handcuffed to pagan traditions that dishonor God. Your “freedom” to disregard God's will isn't something I would be waving about.
Merely your opinion.Quote You would have us believe that you are free to do whatever you like.
I'm sorry you've read this idea into my “freedom” statements. Of course, you are free to “do whatever you like” as we all have a free will.1 Corinthians 6:12
Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.Quote If you want to close your eyes to the origins of these things and put lit candles on a cake, then you are free to do that. You're free to worship artemis himself if you like. But God DOES condemn those things.
God condemn's candles on a cake? Where?Quote “I know you hate those things God. But I'm only going to imitate their actions of false worship.”
Is that basically what you are saying?
David, with all due respect, you have not shown me where God *hates* birthday celebrations. You have a lot of words written on various posts, but you have still yet to prove your point.Quote The Bible doesn't say anywhere: “Don't look at pornography.”
Well, I guess I have just discovered a new freedom. Or wait. Would it be better for me to apply several Bible principles that speak of very similar things and use my God given powers of reason to understand God's thinking.
Sarcasm; it doesn't get you very far in life or with people. David, the Bible speaks of sexual immorality in more than one place. It's pretty clear that anything having to do with gazing at a women lustfully is sin. However, the Bible doesn't speak clearly on candles for a birthday cake. I'm sorry, but the comparisions that you are wanting to draw are fairly weak.My post needs to end here for the moment and I'll continue in a little bit….
Quote (david @ Sep. 17 2007,14:00) Quote Unbelievers keep Christmas and Easter as well as the deceived –kenrch.
Hey Kenrch,
I can't remember the exact numbers, but I believe 2/3s of the world celebrate christmas while only 1/3 claims to be Christian. Or something like that. The vast majority of those who celebrate Christmas (wiccan's, buddhists, etc) do not even believe in Jesus. So is Christmas a “Christian” holiday? Or is it a worldly holiday given a “Christian” name?
And the one who benefit financially are the Jews who don't believe in Christ!Mrs knows better but instead of trying to correct her sister she sits there and condemns those who try too.
Seems if you attach love or freedom then anything goes!
Where are we free to do as the world?
Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Good luck david
Ken
OK, sorry about that David, now to continue….
Quote The Bible does very plainly in scripture repeatedly condemn magic, astrology, paganism, etc. I know you would agree to that. Yet, somehow, your tradition of imitating these things is not condemned? Could you please explain your rational to me on that one.
Would you agree that sacrificing meat to idols was pagen? And yet we who are free in Christ are allowed to eat this meat! What would be the difference between meat sacrificed to idols and say a pagen birthday cake?
Quote I personally don't think you were ever completely free from the stain of paganism. I think you are still enslaved to it, unable to escape.
Luckily, I am not your servant to judge. Do you have an impeccable life, David? I sure hope so! With the measure you are using to judge your sister in Christ, you may also be given the same rule.Quote I am free to celebrate or give someone a gift at any time. You 'MUST' honor tradition. You are enslaved to it. At Christmas time, I have seen the dispair in many peoples eyes. They are enslaved to the customs (also pagan) of “exchanging gifts” on that date.
I can give my brother a gift at any time. You MUST give him one.
I am also free to give and receive gifts at any time. There have been plenty of Christmas's where my family and friends have opted “out” of giving gifts. Has gift-giving mastered me? Am I a slave to the gift? This is a silly idea, wouldn't you agree?Quote The question is: Would borrowing pagan practices that are rooted in magic and mythology be “innocent”?
Please answer this one.
Would eating meat sacrificed to idols be OK? See, this is the thing, there are really no gods at all except for our Father. You are giving the pagens more power than they deserve brother.Quote But why oh why would you want to adopt their customs, imitate their false worship?
Their “customs” don't mean anything to me. This is where your frustration with me stems from. I do not give pagens any power over my life. I eat their meat! I do not imitate their worship. Remember that a house divided will not stand.Quote You keep saying: “I am free to eat meat that has been sacrificed to idols.” Sure. It's just meat. But would you ever copy or imitate their offering the meet to idols?
Our freedom to eat meat that has been sacrificed to idols is HUGE! The message that this passage brings is freedom from the “gods” of the world. What is a pagen? A person who does not believe in the Almighty God. These folks have their own “gods” and there are tons of them. Do their practices mean anything to me? No! Do they have the corner-market on the birthday cake and candles? So far I haven't read where a pagen created the “birthday.” I believe God created the first birthday! For goodness sake, just look at the OT where the years that folks lived are recorded. Someone was keeping track of their birthdays. I wonder if they had some sort of recognition of the day? I bet they did. I know that when Jesus was born, God sent a host of angels to sing in the sky!Quote “Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the heathen are dismayed by them. For the customs of the people are vain” (Jer. 10:2, 3). Any comments?
Good passage. I'll look into this and give it a good study. Thanks!I have to break here and continue again….
OK, back….
Quote It is a fact that the earliest Christians (those who followed Jesus and those who came right after them) REFUSED TO CELEBRATE BIRTHDAYS.
I've heard you say this before. Where is this “fact” that the earliest Christians “refused” to celebrate birthdays? Where can I find this fact? Thanks.Quote I know you want to block our history and shut your eyes to what the earliest Christians did, but the fact remains that one group is wrong.
You presuppose that I know the history of early Christians that refused birthdays, the fact is that I don't have this information. Again, a little less hostility and more information would go a long way in getting your message accross.Quote While driving on a highway, we see ahead of us some children walking dangerously close to the road. Do we continue driving at the maximum speed allowed just because we have the legal right to do so? No, we slow down to avoid possible danger to the children. At times, a similar willingness to slow down, or yield, is called for in our relationship with our fellow believers or others. We may be doing something that we have a perfect right to do. No Bible principles are being violated. Nevertheless, if we could offend others or harm those with a weaker conscience, Christian love will move us to act with caution. (Romans 14:13, 15) Would you consider this an infringement on your freedom to do whatever you like? Would you slow down? Or is this just silly?
I'm not completely sure where you are going with this? Are you trying to say that I would eat the meat sacrificed to idols even if a brother sitting next to me would be ruined by my freedom? Well, then the answer is of course, no! I would not cause my brother to stumble. Are you trying to say that my freedom to celebrate birthdays and Christmas is harming you?I'm not sure who I said this to one time, it might have been Ken, but I really don't remember now; if one of you brother's who do not believe in celebrating Christmas came to my home during such a holiday – I would definitely honor your feelings and guard myself towards putting any stumbling block in your path. Isn't this what Jesus taught his disciples and us – to think of other's and to love one another deeply?
Even though I would refrain from celebrating in your presence, rest assured, I am still free to do so when not with a weaker brother or sister.
Romans 14:2
One man's faith allows him to eat everything [even birthday cake], but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Brother, I appreciate the main thrust of your posts, which is that you care for me and don't want me to participate in something that is pagen. But I only have one God, the Father. I do not care what pagens do and will. If I eat a birthday cake that has originated from a pagen, then to me it is clean. Same with the meat sacrificed to idols. I see no difference.
Ken You and others have said plenty about not to celebrate Birthdays, why do you want me to enter the conversation. All has been said before.
I am sick and tired of you always accusing me of something. Are you God? And I did say something about that before, and why should I repeat it for. That is badgering a person and is so wrong to do. You do not care to know how it is to tell a small child he or she is not going to get a present anymore, my Husband and I feel for that child, and out of Love for that child, I would get Him or Her a present.
And that all is each persons responsibility. But as far as a clear scripture that tells us not to celebrate can you find one? I have not found one.
One more thing how do you know if she is sinning? Love covers a multitude of sins. Can you look into Her Heart, that is were God looks. So before you start accusing people of things you better look at yourself for a change.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (david @ Sep. 17 2007,10:28) “Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the heathen are dismayed by them. For the customs of the people are vain” (Jer. 10:2, 3). Any comments?
Astrology doesn't scare this heathen!Stuart
Quote (IM4Truth @ Sep. 17 2007,19:20) Ken You and others have said plenty about not to celebrate Birthdays, why do you want me to enter the conversation. All has been said before.
I am sick and tired of you always accusing me of something. Are you God? And I did say something about that before, and why should I repeat it for. That is badgering a person and is so wrong to do. You do not care to know how it is to tell a small child he or she is not going to get a present anymore, my Husband and I feel for that child, and out of Love for that child, I would get Him or Her a present.
And that all is each persons responsibility. But as far as a clear scripture that tells us not to celebrate can you find one? I have not found one.
One more thing how do you know if she is sinning? Love covers a multitude of sins. Can you look into Her Heart, that is were God looks. So before you start accusing people of things you better look at yourself for a change.Peace and Love Mrs.
Mrs you are suppose to be N3I1's sister in the Lord. Besides you and charity seem to be close to Mandy. You think you would care? As I said you stand ready to condemn those who try to give understanding to Mandy.Quote You do not care to know how it is to tell a small child he or she is not going to get a present anymore, my Husband and I feel for that child, and out of Love for that child, I would get Him or Her a present. Is this your excuse? I wonder how your Father feels when you say you won't keep His Sabbath after He sent his Son for you?
Do you keep the holiday Mrs? Sounds like you would want too.
You have been fighting me for months because I keep and teach the Sabbath. But when it comes to a pagan, worldly holiday that a person you are suppose to love keeps; you choose you keep your mouth shut!
Is this your “Godly” love?
Is this keeping the “two Greatest commandments OR the Royal law”? Which is the same law that God wrote the “TEN” Commandments.It's so easy to go along with the world but not to go against the world and show the world that you are NOT hers (Harlot)
Badgering? I believe the last thing you said about me was that I was self righteous.
But I forgive you Mrs because it is NOT you who does these things but the prince of darkness.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Peace and Love,
Ken
If Jesus was here on earth with you , do you think he would buy a cake put candles on it an make a wish? If Jesus was here on earth do you think he would put a halloween custom and go trick or treating? If you are watching a movie that has bad words in it and a little bit of fornication in it , do you think Jesus would sit with you and watch it? This is the question I use for my kids and also for me , to help me get a hold on THE REAL VALUES I NEED TO UPHOLD. This world is so temting…. agape love Elaine:;):
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 17 2007,21:19) Quote (david @ Sep. 17 2007,10:28) “Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the heathen are dismayed by them. For the customs of the people are vain” (Jer. 10:2, 3). Any comments?
Astrology doesn't scare this heathen!Stuart
Hi Stu,Good to see you here on this topic. Listen, Astrology doesn't scare me either. You know why? It's impossible to predict the events of the future in totality. Astrology might better be defined as: the guesses of events by stars, not the prediction of events by stars.
I love the stars. I probably love them more than I should!
They were given as a sign to mark seasons and days and years, and to give light to the earth.Jesus is called the “Bright Morning Star” in Revelation. In 2 Peter 1:19 the “morning star” is said to “rise in our hearts”.
Job 38:6,7
On what were it's footings set [speaking of the earth's foundations], or who laid it's cornerstone – while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
Can you imagine stars singing? I can!
Or angels shouting for joy?Stu, a heathen is someone who has no god; they godless. I personally don't think you qualify. Otherwise, why are you here on a Christian site? To mock us? To degrade and abuse us? Certainly not! I haven't seen any of that coming from you. There are plenty of sites and boards that deal with evolution and non-Christian ideals, and yet you are here. I don't believe it is a mistake, and you add so much by being here. Thanks, Stu. God bless you today, Mandy.
Quote (elaine1809 @ Sep. 18 2007,04:47) If Jesus was here on earth with you , do you think he would buy a cake put candles on it an make a wish? If Jesus was here on earth do you think he would put a halloween custom and go trick or treating? If you are watching a movie that has bad words in it and a little bit of fornication in it , do you think Jesus would sit with you and watch it? This is the question I use for my kids and also for me , to help me get a hold on THE REAL VALUES I NEED TO UPHOLD. This world is so temting…. agape love Elaine:;):
Elaine,You are so right! The world is full of temptations and evil practices.
Have you ever heard the saying, Too heaven bound that you are no earthly good? This little saying has a lot packed into it. Paul encourages us to win other's for the Lord. He encourages us to become like someone else so that you may win them over. Certainly Paul is not encouraging us to sin, but he is encouraging us to walk in the world and rub shoulder's with those who partake of things we might consider “non-Christian” or too “worldly.” For me, there is a balance.
1 Corinthians 9:19-23 [quoted in part]
Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like on under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win thos under the law.To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means, I might save some.
I do this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in it's blessings.
Remember, even Jesus ate with the tax collector's and sinners. Maybe Jesus even ate birthday cake? Who knows for sure. Just something to ponder…..
++”Stu, a heathen is someone who has no god; they godless. I personally don't think you qualify.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I am an atheist.
Stuart
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