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Quote In 1 Corinthians, chapter 8, Paul tells us that indeed there are “gods, idols, and lords” in the world, but they are really nothing at all. –Not
True. So if you saw someone who worshipped trees because they didn't die during winter or light because they worship the sun god, or if some ancient Greeks takes round honey cakes and for some reason puts lit tapers on them and places them on the temple altars of artimis, we realize that their gods are nothing and we should reject their worship. But more than that, WE SHOULD NOT IMITATE IT, knowing that the idols are nothing.
Question: Do you think imitating pagan practices is ok?
No, you are of course not worshipping those false gods which are nothing.
But why oh why would you want to adopt their customs, imitate their false worship?Quote at just a glance, I can see that you want me to be bound to what our early “Church Father's” and the “Encylopedias” report, but I'm sorry, I simply do not feel any allegiance to either one! So, anything you have found regarding celebrations from these sources really doesn't impress me too much. –Not3
It's just that you said:
Quote you can find writings/books/research/professionals/pastor's and your Uncle to tell you something had “pagen origins.” It's just a matter of who you read and where you do your research. For every negative on a birthday cake, I bet I could find someone in antiquity who wrote something postive! I dislike your spin on this. The earliest Christians didn't celebrate birthdays because birthdays were of pagan origin, involving false worship. You say you can find sources that say the opposite. But when asked for them, you decline and say you feel no allegiance to the earliest Christians.
I don't feel allegiance to them either. I consider them my brothers though.And if they as a group completely refused to take any part in a certain celebration, I would want to know and understand why.
Because either their thinking is wrong (the earliest Christians…Peter, Paul, and those who came just after them) or those who say “Birthday celebrations are acceptable to God” are wrong.
One group is wrong.
You can state over and over again that the earliest Christians were wrong. And that this all got corrected a few hundred years later. But I would tend to think that the closer they were to Jesus time, the less corrupted their thinking was.
Quote I am free to eat meat sacrificed to idols, man!!
Yes, the meat, the leftover meat is just meat. But you wouldn't want to take that meat and put it on their alter and join in with them. Or you wouldn't want to carve that meat into the image of their god and partake with them, would you?
The point of that verse, is that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the meat, even though it was used for a wrong purpose.
But to take that meat and COPY their ACTIONS of false worship.That has nothing to do with what the scripture says, no matter how much you would love it to.
As it turns out, paganism and copying paganism is still wrong and always has been.
“Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the heathen are dismayed by them. For the customs of the people are vain” (Jer. 10:2, 3).
Quote Surely, the LORD is the one who guides me, not the Encyclopdia Britannica! 
Right. I just don't want to somehow fall into the camp that wholeheartedly thinks the lord is guiding you when he isn't. All those who will be saying “lord, lord” (mat 7:21,22) will of course think the lord was guiding them. It's just too easy to deceive ourselves, especially with the world's ruler attempting to do the same (2 cor 4:4)
If you refuse to show me evidence to the contrary, then please attempt to answer this:
Why do you think the earliest Christians looked down upon birthday celebrations?Quote There is no scriptural teaching telling us to avoid birthday celebrations. If there is such scripture, please show me. Ok, but THERE ARE scriptures telling us to have nothing to do with paganism, all kinds of them.
And if the birthday celebration as we know it today (with the cake, candles in the cake, presents) have their origins in idolatry, false worship, etc, then cannot we use our powers of reason to understand that copying something Jehovah detests and simply calling it innocent fun, will not suffice?It's tradition, so it's ok. (not scriptural)
It's fun, so it's ok. (not scriptural)–It has pagan origins. (what do the scriptures say?)
–The earliest Christians therefore avoided it (because they understood scriptural principles)
–300 years later, it was ok, as was many many other things, including false teachings of all sorts. (check the apostasy scriptures)Quote I will say it again, there is nothing wrong with being happy and grateful for our lives…..every year that we live!
I don't think anyone is disputing this. I believe its the imitation of pagan practices that God hates that is in question.Quote So far, with all due respect, it has only been personal opinions of those who choose not to celebrate. There is no real scripture to back it up. Are there any scriptures that say imitating paganism is wrong? I believe there are. Or do you deny this?
Quote I'm not interested in historians, I am interested in scripture. Just because scripture is silent on an issue does not negate it. Of course, scripture isn't really completely “silent” on birthdays. There were those two birthdays were each of them an enemy of God is celebrating his birthday and a servant of God is being killed.
I would like to address this comment just once more:
Quote you can find writings/books/research/professionals/pastor's and your Uncle to tell you something had “pagen origins.” It's just a matter of who you read and where you do your research. For every negative on a birthday cake, I bet I could find someone in antiquity who wrote something postive! I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments of the one who wrote these words:
“No early religious/church writing from the second century that I have seen (and I have read most that are available) seems to endorse (or even suggest) the celebration of birthdays by any who professed Christ.”
http://www.cogwriter.com/birthdays.htmAs a united group, the earliest Christians didn't celebrate birthdays. As far as I can tell, that's a fact.
So there was definitely a change (unless anyone can show that the earliest Christians did celebrate birthdays)
Why the change?
The apostasy:
MATTHEW 13:24-30 (c. 41 C.E.)
“The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also. So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ He said, ‘No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, YOU uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.’””
MATTHEW 13:36-39
“Then after dismissing the crowds he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.”
(See Mat 8:20; 9:6; 10:23 where Jesus identifies himself as the “son of man.”)MATTHEW 7:15-16 (c. 41 C.E.)
““Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?”
(These words were put down by Matthew around 41 C.E, but spoken by Jesus several years earlier.MATTHEW 24:11 (c. 41 C.E.)
“And many false prophets will arise and mislead many;”
(After saying that no stone would be left of the temple in Jerusalem, Jesus’ disciples asked him: “When will these things be.” The question also involved them asking for a sign of his presence and the conclusion of the system of things. Jesus gave them a multi-fulfillment sign that included what would occur before the conclusion of Jerusalem’s end. We see that many false prophets would arise and “mislead many.”)ACTS 15:24 (c. 50 C.E.)
“we have heard that some from among us have caused you trouble with speeches, trying to subvert your souls, although we [the governing body] did not give them any instructions,”
(Remarkably, as early as around 50 C.E., there were “some from among” the Christian congregation who were speaking falsely, and “trying to subvert [their] souls.”)GALATIANS 1:6-7 (c. 50-52 C.E.)
“I marvel that you are being so quickly removed from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness over to another sort of good news. But it is not another; only there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to pervert the good news about the Christ.”
(“Certain ones” were “wanting to pervert the good news” and Paul was amazed or marveled at how “quickly” this was happening, already back around 50-52 C.E.!)GALATIANS 2:3-4 (c. 50-52 C.E.)
“Nevertheless, not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, although he was a Greek. But because of the false brothers brought in quietly, who sneaked in to spy upon our freedom which we have in union with Christ Jesus, that they might completely enslave us—”
(Again, mention of “false brothers” that were brought into the congregation, “quietly.”)2 THESSALONIANS 2:3,7,9 (c.51 C.E.)
“Let no one seduce you in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. . . .True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. . . .But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents”
(This man of lawlessness was a mystery at the time, but it would only be a mystery until “he who is right now acting as a restraint [the apostles] gets to be out of the way.” When that happened, it would no longer be a mystery or obscure, because it would break forth in full bloom and spread like “gangrene” as another verse puts it. Verse 8 tells us that the lawless one will be done away with and brought to nothing by the manifestation of Jesus’ presence. So the man of lawlessness would exist right up until Christ’s presence. It was “already at work” or beginning to manifest itself at this time.)2 CORINTHIANS 11:3 (c. 55 C.E.)
“I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, your minds [of those Christians in Corinth] might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ.”2 CORINTHIANS 11:26 (c. 55 C.E.)
“. . . .in dangers among false brothers. . . .”
(False brothers certainly already existed at this time and they were dangerous.)ROMANS 16:17-18 (c. 56 C.E.)
“Now I exhort you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them. For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own bellies; and by smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones.” (See 1 Cor 1:10)ACTS 20:27-30 (c. 56.C.E.)
“for I have not held back from telling you all the counsel of God. Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]. I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.”
(Notice that he was speaking to the “overseers” (Bishops), the ones who had been appointed “to shepharerd the congregation of God.” It was from among these ones themselves that men would rise and speak twisted things “to draw away the disciples after themselves.”) (See Acts 15:24; 2 Pet. 2:1)COLOSSIANS 2:8 (c. 60-61 C.E.)
“Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;”
(Although this scripture is not speaking of an apostasy or rebellion from with
in, it does speak of the subtle influence of philosophy and Greek philosophy was a key factor in the apostasy that followed the death of the apostles. The Greek immortal soul teaching implied a need for various destinations for the soul—heaven, hellfire, purgatory, paradise, Limbo. By manipulating such teachings, it became easy for a priestly class to keep their flocks submissive and in fear of the Hereafter and to extract gifts and donations from them.)1 TIMOTHY 6:20-21 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“O Timothy, guard what is laid up in trust with you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called “knowledge.” For making a show of such [knowledge] some have deviated from the faith.”1 TIMOTHY 4:1-3 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.”
(See 1 tim 3:2; 1 Cor 9:5; “Cephas” is an Aramaic name given to Peter; see John 1:42. See also Mark 1:29-31, where reference is made to the mother-in-law of Simon, or Peter.)1 TIMOTHY 1:3-7 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“Just as I encouraged you to stay in Eph́e·sus when I was about to go my way into Mac·e·dóni·a, so I do now, that you might command certain ones not to teach different doctrine, nor to pay attention to false stories. . .. Really the objective of this mandate is love out of a clean heart and out of a good conscience and out of faith without hypocrisy. By deviating from these things certain ones have been turned aside into idle talk, wanting to be teachers of law, but not perceiving either the things they are saying or the things about which they are making strong assertions.”
(So, around 61-64 C.E., “false stories” did exist and were being taught. Some in the Christian congregation were “teach[ing] different doctrine” as early as 61 C.E. More than that, ones were “making strong assertions” that were wrong and “wanting to be teachers.” As well, they had “deviated” from certain Christian principles.)TITUS 1:5,10,11,13-16 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might correct the things that were defective and might make appointments of older men in city after city, as I gave you orders. . . .For there are many unruly men, profitless talkers, and deceivers of the mind, especially those men who adhere to the circumcision. It is necessary to shut the mouths of these, as these very men keep on subverting entire households by teaching things they ought not for the sake of dishonest gain. . . . For this very cause keep on reproving them with severity, that they may be healthy in the faith, paying no attention to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn themselves away from the truth. . . . They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort.” (See Mat. 15:19)2 PETER 3:13,15-17 (c. 64 C.E.)
“But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell. . . . Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote you, Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote you, speaking about these things as he does also in all [his] letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on your guard that you may not be led away with them by the error of the law-defying people and fall from your own steadfastness.” (See 2 Tim 4:3,4–“they will accumulate teachers for themsleves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth.”)2 PETER 2:1-3 (c. 64 C.E.)
“However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects . . . .Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. Also, with covetousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words.”
(See 2 Tim. 2:16-18–“their word will spread like gangrene.” Romans 16:17–“keep your eye on those who cause divisions.” 1 Cor 1:10–“there should not be divisions among you.”)
(Peter’s words proved ture. Sects, or divisions were already evident as historian Will Durant points out:
“Celsus [second-century opponent of Christianity] himself had sarcastically observed that Christians were ‘split up into ever so many factions, each individual desiring to have his own party.’ About 187 [C.E.] Irenaeus listed twenty varieties of Christianity; about 384 [C.E.] Epiphanius counted eighty.”—The Story of Civilization: Part III—Caesar and Christ.)2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4 (c. 65 C.E.)
“For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories.”JUDE 3-4,10 (c. 65. C.E.)
“Beloved ones, though I was making every effort to write you about the salvation we hold in common, I found it necessary to write you to exhort you to put up a hard fight for the faith that was once for all time delivered to the holy ones. My reason is that certain men have slipped in . . .ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ. . . .Yet these [men] are speaking abusively of all the things they really do not know.”
(You can feel Jude’s sadness. He truly wanted, no, was making “every effort” to speak of good things. But he “found it necessary” to exhort them to “put up a hard fight for the faith.” His “reason” for this was the “ungodly men” who had “slipped in” to the congregation. These men not only had left behind good Christian conduct, but they were speaking “of all the things they really [did] not know.”)
2 TIMOTHY 2:16-18 (c. 65 C.E.)
“But shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·naéus and Phi·létus are of that number. These very [men] have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (See 1 Tim. 1:19,20; 2 Tim 3:13)
(Would this apostasy happen slowly? Is gangrene slow? Quite the opposite. And already there were some who were “subverting the faith” of others, teaching false doctrine, in this case “that the resurrection [had] already occurred.” Would things turn around? Paul wrote to Timothy: “They will advance to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene.”)1 JOHN 2:18-19 (c. 98. C.E.)
“Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But [they went out] that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort.”1 JOHN 4:3 (c. 98 C.E.)
“but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermor
e, this is the antichrist’s [inspired expression] which YOU have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world.”2 JOHN 7 (c. 98 C.E.)
“For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.”
(Another false teaching, from the foretold false teachers. By this time “many deceivers” were already in “the world.”)* * *
Along with this apostasy, many wrong pagan influences found their way into the congregation. And suddenly, wrong things became viewed as right. Everything was being twisted.
Quote “Again, like I shared with Elaine, Paul taught us that there are many idols and gods in the world. However, they are nothing at all because for US there is only One God, the Father. We are allowed to eat meat sacrificed to idols as long as we do not make another brother stumble.
…..Please don't allow my freedom in Christ to cause you to stumble.”–Not 3“It is well not to eat flesh or to drink wine or do anything over which your brother stumbles.” (Romans 14:14, 20, 21)
When the conscience of a fellow Christian could be offended by what we do, brotherly love will move us to be considerate and restrict our choices. An example of this might be the use of alcoholic beverages. A Christian is permitted to drink wine in moderation. But if doing so might stumble his companion, he will not insist on his rights.
While driving on a highway, we see ahead of us some children walking dangerously close to the road. Do we continue driving at the maximum speed allowed just because we have the legal right to do so? No, we slow down to avoid possible danger to the children. At times, a similar willingness to slow down, or yield, is called for in our relationship with our fellow believers or others. We may be doing something that we have a perfect right to do. No Bible principles are being violated. Nevertheless, if we could offend others or harm those with a weaker conscience, Christian love will move us to act with caution. (Romans 14:13, 15)
. Paul says: “Even the Christ did not please himself; but just as it is written: ‘The reproaches of those who were reproaching you have fallen upon me.’” Jesus was willing to sacrifice his life for us. Surely we are willing to sacrifice some of our rights if that will enable “those not strong” to glorify God in unity with us. Truly, displaying an accommodating and generous disposition toward Christians having a weaker conscience—or voluntarily restricting our choices and not insisting upon our rights—demonstrates “the same mental attitude that Christ Jesus had.”—Romans 15:1-5.
Thus, “we . . . who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those not strong, and not to be pleasing ourselves. Let each of us please his neighbor in what is good for his upbuilding.” (Romans 15:1, 2)
Quote David wrote:
If you think the quotes are wrong and the customs or origins are wrong, I ask you why the birthday cake? Why the candles? Find a source that explains it in another way.
***************************************
Again, the quotes and customs may be true, but they do not apply to me…..a child of the one true God.–Not3
If your Father hated something, (magic, mythology, astrology) would you years later, as his child create a magic/astrology store and say:
'To me, his hatred of these things does not apply. It was a long time ago. I am simply imitating those things and not practicing them myself.'?Quote I think God WANTS us to have “innocent fun”. He has given us abundant life in Christ! The joy of the LORD is our strength! No one argues that God wants us to have innocent fun. In fact, having the sort of fun that is “innocent” is what I am arguing. The question is: Would borrowing pagan practices that are rooted in magic and mythology be “innocent”?
Please answer this one.Quote (david @ Sep. 16 2007,12:07) I dislike your spin on this.
I suspect that what you really dislike is my freedom in Christ. Is this why you are trying to put me into your bondage? It won't work, you know?Christ has set me free! He purchased me with his own blood! The Father watched this splendid sacrifice and has said it was enough. The law was done away with and all the requirements for salvation were fulfilled.
There is therefore NO condemnation for those in Christ. Praise God!
Sweet freedom!
David,
With all due respect, I have read all of your many posts to me tonight and do not find any to comment on but the one I have already given above. Some of your thoughts and questions are just silly (i.e., the hypothetical magic store and so on).You were still unable to prove with scriptures where prohibiting birthday celebrations are taught. It almost appears to frustrate you that you are unable to do this? I don't mean to frustrate you, brother. I only mean to live free like my Father has intended for me to live. I only mean to enjoy the freedom that Jesus purchased for me…….and you!
Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.Jam 4:4 You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
For starters Christmas and Easter are “lies”. Then “everyone all the world” celebrate these pagan days.
Why is it easy to keep pagan days that “WE” deem “Christian” and SO HARD to keep the forth commandment.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
If Christmas and Easter were not of the flesh then the world would not be keeping them, would they?
Can we fool ourselves saying I will keep a pagan fleshly holI-day “spiritual”. Can we bless and make a day holy?
We under the New Covenant are under a more strict Covenant. Our righteousness is to surpass those of the Old Covenant.
In Short their is NO Longer an excuse.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Unbelievers keep Christmas and Easter as well as the deceived
Peace,
Ken
Colossians 2:20-23
Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to it's rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?
These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.
Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
Christ has come to bring us freedom, and when he appears in the sky and the trumpet sounds…….he will bring us sweet salvation! Those of us who believe in his Name are free. Those who Christ has set free, are free indeed!
Galations 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
I am not a slave. There are those who would love for me to be one through their restrictions and strict/narrow interpretations of the Scriptures……but it is for freedom that Christ has set me free. Amen.
Hi Not3. You write:
Quote Christ has set me free! He purchased me with his own blood! Yet you are still bound and tied and handcuffed to pagan traditions that dishonor God. Your “freedom” to disregard God's will isn't something I would be waving about. We all have freedom of will. We can do good or bad.
The freedom you speak of is not freedom to practice imitating pagan practices. This is not the freedom it is speaking of. We are all free to do whatever we want. But does it dishonor God? Does it stumble our brothers? Is it for God's glory and praise or man's?
Quote There is therefore NO condemnation for those in Christ. Praise God! Sweet freedom!
You would have us believe that you are free to do whatever you like.
Condemn: “To express strong disapproval of.”Repeatedly, Jehovah God himself condemned paganism, idolatry, magic, astrology.
If you want to close your eyes to the origins of these things and put lit candles on a cake, then you are free to do that. You're free to worship artemis himself if you like.
But God DOES condemn those things. And those things are the reasons, origins, and purpose of the birthday celebration.
Scream “freedom, freedom” all you like.
It won't change God's condemning of those things.
“I know you hate those things God. But I'm only going to imitate their actions of false worship.”
Is that basically what you are saying?Quote You were still unable to prove with scriptures where prohibiting birthday celebrations are taught. The Bible doesn't say anywhere: “Don't look at pornography.”
Well, I guess I have just discovered a new freedom. Or wait. Would it be better for me to apply several Bible principles that speak of very similar things and use my God given powers of reason to understand God's thinking.The Bible does very plainly in scripture repeatedly condemn magic, astrology, paganism, etc. I know you would agree to that.
Yet, somehow, your tradition of imitating these things is not condemned? Could you please explain your rational to me on that one.
Quote Galations 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.I personally don't think you were ever completely free from the stain of paganism. I think you are still enslaved to it, unable to escape.
ROMANS 6:18
“Yes, since YOU were set free from sin, YOU became slaves to righteousness.”A slave is “a person who is the legal property of another or others and is bound to absolute obedience.”
We are slaves of God the almighty. The earth and all which fills it belongs to him. And if we have dedicated our lives to him, how much more so are we his slaves.
So if a master (Jehovah) hates something (pagansim) will his slave (you) imitate that thing?
A faithful slave would never do that. It would bring dishonor to his master.
It would be like mocking him.“You do not belong to yourselves, for you were bought with a price,” explains the apostle Paul. (1 Corinthians 6:19, 20)
You SHOULD have freedom of sin. But you should also be a slave to God.
It is sin and sinful ways and things that God hates that you SHOULD be free from.Quote Colossians 2:20-23 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to it's rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?
These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.
Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
Paul then proceeds to show that God’s Son came at the “full limit of the time” and released those becoming his disciples from being under the Law that they might receive the adoption of sons.
We remember many: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch” from the law. They were freed of this law. They now were to use the power of reason in applying godly principles. We notice christ spoke mostly in principles and not laws. Principles are the blocks on which laws are based. Principles exist forever. Laws come and go and are more specific. The principles behind the law haven't changed. But the law itself was nailed to the torture stake. Yet many were looking to that law. Yet, the principle (basic idea) that God hates and condemns paganism will remain forever. God will never ever change his thinking on that. It will never be ok to do such things.Quote I am not a slave.
Try to be free of birthdays. You cannot. Therefore, you are a slave to that man made tradition that has roots in heathinistic practices.Quote It almost appears to frustrate you that you are unable to do this?
I am free to celebrate or give someone a gift at any time. You 'MUST' honor tradition. You are enslaved to it. At Christmas time, I have seen the dispair in many peoples eyes. They are enslaved to the customs (also pagan) of “exchanging gifts” on that date.
I can give my brother a gift at any time. You MUST give him one.
Which one of us is free?david
I noticed you missed this question:
The question is: Would borrowing pagan practices that are rooted in magic and mythology be “innocent”?
Please answer this one.Another question, I don't think you've ever answered:
Do you think imitating pagan practices is ok?
No, you are of course not worshipping those false gods which are nothing.
But why oh why would you want to adopt their customs, imitate their false worship?And then there is this, which I wonder about:
Quote I am free to eat meat sacrificed to idols, man!! Yes, the meat, the leftover meat is just meat. But you wouldn't want to take that meat and put it on their alter and join in with them. Or you wouldn't want to carve that meat into the image of their god and partake with them, would you?
The point of that verse, is that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the meat, even though it was used for a wrong purpose.
But to take that meat and COPY their ACTIONS of false worship.You keep saying: “I am free to eat meat that has been sacrificed to idols.”
Sure. It's just meat. But would you ever copy or imitate their offering the meet to idols?
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