- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Was knowing when your birthday an important thing to know with the early Christians,did they celebrate birthdays every year or just on the day of the birth was their a celebration?
I don't know the answers does anybody else?
Hi not3in1
The blowing out the candles wasn't it, it's the hip hip hooray bit I was referring too, although the blowing out of the candle in pagan practices symbolized a completion of something cast out like a spell.
Although I'm not really interested in my birthday for no other reason other than I don't hold them special only the first one.in the flesh and the second one when God changed me, and you know I don't remember that date exactly only the month and year.WOW David well done! I was convinced that it was ok until you mentioned the fact that : “EARLY CHRISTIANS DID NOT….” I forgot about that. Thank you, but then can you explain the verses that NOT3 was reffering to? This ones:
“In 1 Corinthians, chapter 8, Paul tells us that indeed there are “gods, idols, and lords” in the world, but they are really nothing at all. Because for us there is One God, who is the Father of us all.Paul also instructs us that we may eat anything that is sacrificed to a so-called “idol” because there is no such thing. However, if it causes someone to stumble and fall because of our freedom in Christ, then this is sin.”
What WAS Paul reffering to?
Thank you again David
THE SURPRISING ORIGIN OF CUSTOM OF CELEBTATING BIRTHDAYS!
Where did the universal custom of celebrating the day of one's birth originate?
What about birthday parties,cakes and candles? What does the Bible say about celebrating the
one's birth? you might be shocked at the answer!William F. Dankenbring
Almost everybody, today celebrates birthday's. Around the world, friends and relatives hold birthday parties, give gifts to the one being honored and wish “Happy birthday!” to the one whose birthday is celebrated. But why?
Where did this universal custom 0riginated? Do you know the answer?
Though you look in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, you will find no mention anymore of any of the saints of God observing their birthdays. In fact, strange as it may seem to Man, even the exact date of the birth of Jesus Christ is NOWHERE REVELEALED in scripture! The universal custom of observing “Christmas as the birth of Christ, on December 25th, is acknowledged by all historical authorities as having no basis in actual fact. Jesus Christ was born nowhere near December 25th, in the dead of winter.
If the very day of Jesus birth is deliberately left out of the Bible, doesn't that fact tell us something? If birthdays should be celebrated, WHO did God leave the date of His own Son's birth out of Holy Scripture?
The plain truth is that birth day celebration are only mentioned twice in the Scriptures-both times in reference to customs being observed by unconverted people- a pagan Egyptian Pharaoh, and wicked king Herod!
Now notice what happened on those two instances of “birth day celebrations” in the Word of God.
PHARAOH OF EGYPT
In Genesis we read:” And it came to pass the third day, which was PHARAOH'S BIRTHDAY, that he made a feast unto all his servants; and he lifted up the head of the chief butler and of the chief baker among his servants. And he restored the chief butler unto his butlership again, and he gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand: but he hanged the chief baker: as Joseph had interpreted to them.”( Genesis 40:20-22).
Notice! This was a birthday party, nothing less! it was being observed by a pagan Egyptian Pharaoh-not a man of God. This is the only example of a clear cut birthday celebration in the O.T. — and it was observed by a PGAN KING!
THE ORIGIN OF BIRTHDAY
This fact, should not be overly surprising. Writes Linda Rannells Lewis ion Birthdays,
“Birthdays have been celebrated for thousands of years. In early civilization, where the development of the calender made an organized reckoning of birthday date possible, the horoscopes of ruling monarchs, their successors and reveals had to be cast with care and birthday omens meticulously examined, for the prospects of the mighty would affect the prospects of the entire society. By the time of Ptolemy V this practice was well established: Ptolemy, the living, the beloved of ptah, the son of the two Brother DIOS, was born on the fifth day of the month DIOS, and this day was, in consequence, the beginning of great prosperity and happiness of all living men and woman”(pg.12).
Ptolemy was an ancient Egyptian king. It was common in his day for kings and rulers to have their horoscopes made by astrologers and their birthdays were considered very important omens of the future.The false science of astrology, of course, makes a great deal out of the position of the sun, moon and stars and the moment of one's birth.
Astrology, as the Word of God plainly shows, is a pagan, a false religious deception–a fraud and mythological pseudo science.
God says to the “daughter of Babylon”(Isa.47:1), the great pagan religious deception which has engulfed the world, Thou art wearied in the multitude of the counsels. Let now the ASTROLOGERS, the star-gazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up and save thee from things that shall come upon thee. Behold, they shall be as STUBBLE: the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame….. ( Idaiah47:13-14)
There is so much more on that subject. But if this alone will not change your minds on keeping Birthdays nothing else will do either.
Quote (david @ Aug. 20 2007,18:17) Quote I know that quite a few believer's on this site would condemn me for celebrating [birthdays, etc], but I have found peace with God about this. I think that there are times when you can become way too legalistic about life. –Not3in1
My question to you Not3 is simply this: Were the earliest Christians “way too legalistic” on this?
“The early Christians did not celebrate His [Christ’s] birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.”–World Book Encyclopedia, Vol. 3, p. 416.
All the references will say the same: The earliest Christians refused to take part in birthday celebrations. It wasn't until 300 years later that this became acceptable to Christendom.
So I would really like an answer to my question. Were they wrong? Were they “way too legalistic”? Or, did they recognize the origins of this custom and apply godly principles?
Hi David,Good to chat with you again. I am enjoying your posts in the Science section.
Listen, just because there isn't a “record” of Jesus getting thrown a birthday party from Mary and Jo doesn't mean it didn't happen? Maybe Jesus played on the Nazareth Little League team, too, and that isn't recorded? We don't have little details of his life growing up, do we? We have a small window of information about our dear Lord's life. And because those years were packed full of ministry, it's not surprising to me that nothing was mentioned of birthday celebrations…………but that doesn't mean that they didn't happen. It certainly is NOT forbidden, and birthdays were certainly NOT deemed to be “pagen customs” – can you show me this teaching in the NT? You are looking to “references” and that is OK, but what does the Word say? Does it have a direct teaching or is it silent?
My answer is this – I know that your religion does not celebrate birthdays, and I respect that. But you cannot look to scripture to be on your side here, David. You can infer that birthday celebrations are pagen, but your scriptural proof will be lacking.
It's easy to impose your strict ideas on other's. But the proof is in the scripture……show me where my Lord or the disciples taught on passing up birthday cake and I will do the same – gladly!
Quote (IM4Truth @ Aug. 21 2007,03:46) In Genesis we read:” And it came to pass the third day, which was PHARAOH'S BIRTHDAY, that he made a feast unto all his servants; and he lifted up the head of the chief butler and of the chief baker among his servants. And he restored the chief butler unto his butlership again, and he gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand: but he hanged the chief baker: as Joseph had interpreted to them.”( Genesis 40:20-22). Notice! This was a birthday party, nothing less! it was being observed by a pagan Egyptian Pharaoh-not a man of God. This is the only example of a clear cut birthday celebration in the O.T. — and it was observed by a PGAN KING!
You may not like Pharaoh, but he was used according to God's good purposes.These verses regarding his birthday party certainly do not carry a teaching over to us about birthdays. You may infer some ideas about birthdays (fill in the blanks, if you will), but there is not clear-cut teaching against keeping birthdays.
Again, like I said to brother David, it's OK to use references (such as you quoted), but clear scripture is better when you are imposing restrictions. God is always clear when it comes to restrictions.
Quote (Debra @ Aug. 20 2007,21:11) Was knowing when your birthday an important thing to know with the early Christians,did they celebrate birthdays every year or just on the day of the birth was their a celebration?
I don't know the answers does anybody else?
Hi not3in1
The blowing out the candles wasn't it, it's the hip hip hooray bit I was referring too, although the blowing out of the candle in pagan practices symbolized a completion of something cast out like a spell.
Although I'm not really interested in my birthday for no other reason other than I don't hold them special only the first one.in the flesh and the second one when God changed me, and you know I don't remember that date exactly only the month and year.
Hi Debra,As I see it, it's pretty much a personal choice. Scripture does not teach clearly on the subject.
no3in1 and Debra! It is very hard not to do like the Pagans did, and that includes Birthdays, but God said that He hates all the Pagan Holidays. I know how hard it is to give all of those up, and I have fallen short of doing so. We have 4 grown children and 6 grandchildren and 3 Step grandchildren. Especially the young ones under 10 years old. It is hard to make them understand, and I have not done that. All of our children keep the Holydays and not Gods Holidays. But that does not change that God hates those Days. We are not required to keep Gods Holydays, I believe, but I don't like to keep the Pagan Holidays either. We have not had a X-mas Tree since 1984 or any kind of Christmas Decoration. But I have given the small children gifts, I feel that I am doing that out of Love. I hope that I am not wrong in this. Since my Husband found this website, it has bothered me that I still practice what God hates. But you both have to be convinced in your minds, I can't tell you what to do, just my understanding.
Peace and Love Mrs.Thanks, Mrs, for sharing the truth you know. I appreciate it very much.
But I have not found in scripture that God hates birthdays. I guess until I do, I am free to enjoy them as unto the Lord.
Love to you and yours,
MandyQuote I am enjoying your posts in the Science section. . . .Listen, just because there isn't a “record” of Jesus getting thrown a birthday party from Mary and Jo doesn't mean it didn't happen? –Not3
Hey Not3. Yes, I'm enjoying posting and discussing a very different topic.
Not3, you misunderstand. It's not that there is no record. It's that they actually refused to take part. There is no record of it happening because everyone who followed Jesus at that time refused to have any part in such things. References will tell you that they purposefully decidedly knowingly didn't take part.Quote Maybe Jesus played on the Nazareth Little League team, too, and that isn't recorded? We don't have little details of his life growing up, do we? We have a small window of information about our dear Lord's life. And because those years were packed full of ministry, it's not surprising to me that nothing was mentioned of birthday celebrations…………but that doesn't mean that they didn't happen. While there is no record in the Bible of Jesus either celebrating or not celebrating birthdays, history, every resource available, all evidence known suggests that not only did they not celebrate birthdays, THEY ADIMENTLY REFUSED TO.
Quote It certainly is NOT forbidden, and birthdays were certainly NOT deemed to be “pagen customs” – can you show me this teaching in the NT? You are looking to “references” and that is OK, but what does the Word say? Does it have a direct teaching or is it silent? You failed to answer my questions. Why did the early Christians refuse to celebrate the birthday?
All I can show you in the Bible for birthdays is the two people who had them–both enemies of God–both involving tragedies for servants of God.History shows that birthdays often involve death and bloodshed.
As to your 1 Cro 8, I have little time now. But obviously the earliest Christians did not apply that thought to birthdays. Were they wrong? Who is wrong on this subject? As a group, as a united group, it was clearly wrong to them.
Not 3, if you could possibly answer or even consider these questions:
Questions:
1. Why do you think the early Christians refused to celebrate birthdays (including Jesus birthday)? There is no record of Christians celebrating Jesus birth for hundreds of years. Why did they refuse to do so? (I can provide a string of quotes saying they didn't, if you like, showing that the early Christians regarded them as a practice for the pagans) They didn't just neglect to do so. They purposefully avoided celebrating them. My question to you: WHY? Why do you think? Please think about that seriously. And DO YOU THINK THEIR REASONS ARE UNIMPORTANT? WHERE THE EARLIEST CHRISTIANS WRONG IN THEIR THINKING? IF SO, WHY?
2. “ALL scripture is …. beneficial for teaching, for setting things straight.” (2 tim 3:16,17)
My second question to you: Why do the only two accounts of birthdays in the Bible (Pharoah and Herod) both involve bloodshed of God's servants? If all scripture including those scriptures are beneficial for teaching, what do we learn from them? Why does the Bible present birthdays in such a negative light? It is not just a coincidence that the only birthdays mentioned involved bloodshed. Looking at history, we see the same. So my question to you is: If the Bible presents birthdays this way, why disregard it? Are those accounts not part of the “all scripture” that is beneficial for setting things straight?
As well, if the very day of Jesus' birth is deliberately left out of the Bible, doesn't that fact tell us something? If birthdays should be celebrated, why did God leave the date of His own Son's birth out of Holy Scripture?3. Yes, lots of things are pagan. Lots of things have idolatrous roots. Birthdays are one of them. The birthday observance was common in many polytheistic cultures. Idolatrous rites were performed in honor of the patron god of each particular birthday, and birthdays of mythical gods like Saturn and Apollo were celebrated.
If you think the quotes are wrong and the customs or origins are wrong, I ask you why the birthday cake? Why the candles? Find a source that explains it in another way.
Over and over again in the references that I am looking at, I see that the early Christians didn't celebrate birthdays because of associating it with idolatry. Over and over again I see this. The Bible clearly condemns idolatry. (1 cor 6:9,10; Eph 5:5)
My question to you is: HAS GOD’S MEMORY FADED? WHAT DOES GOD THINK OF SUCH THINGS? God saw first hand where this celebration came from the the trail of blood that followed it. Is it just “innocent fun” to God? What do you think?4. There is no scripture that says: “Birthdays are a no no.” Yet, the earliest Christians (no doubt discerning Biblical principles and understanding the history of birthdays) did not seem divided on this. It didn't seem to be a matter of conscience to them, but it seemed clearly wrong, something they all avoided, as a group. Other than the apostate thinking that was prophesied, what has changed?
Thank you David for reminding me of all of this. I have had a hard time with this because of our small Grandchildren and our children being with mainstream Christianity. We only have one 6 year old left. I am so glad of that. May god forgive me for my shortcomings.
Peace and Love Mrs.Hi Bro David,
I just check in now quickly and see you have some homework for me. Give me a bit to respond because we are in the middle of a construction zone here (major remodel – ripping out doors and flooring), plus my dear husband is wanting to run a garage sale this weekend (good grief). I check in quickly and respond if I can quickly. But I want to give your questions some thought and research. So you may see me here reading posts and possibly posting quickly – don't think I'm not responding to you, ok?
David wrote:
References will tell you that they purposefully decidedly knowingly didn't take part.
*********************
Please show me these “references.” David, if you cannot find scripture to back up these claims, it means nothing to me (with all due respect).David wrote:
You failed to answer my questions. Why did the early Christians refuse to celebrate the birthday?
******************************
I said that just because it is not written or recorded, that doesn't mean that folks didn't celebrate birthdays. There is no scriptural teaching telling us to avoid birthday celebrations. If there is such scripture, please show me. Otherwise, it is up to the individual to infer and decide for themselves what the more vague scriptures are implying (i.e., wicked people recorded as having birthday parties, for instance.) We are left to assume a great deal according to our many preferences without scripture to guide us.David wrote:
As a group, as a united group, it was clearly wrong to them.
****************************
Again, this is not clear because there is no scripture to make it clear – only writings of historians who could also be led by thier bias. Scripture is the supreme guide when we are talking about restrictions and rules.David wrote:
1. Why do you think the early Christians refused to celebrate birthdays (including Jesus birthday)? There is no record of Christians celebrating Jesus birth for hundreds of years. Why did they refuse to do so? (I can provide a string of quotes saying they didn't, if you like, showing that the early Christians regarded them as a practice for the pagans)
*******************************
I'm not interested in historians, I am interested in scripture. Just because scripture is silent on an issue does not negate it.David wrote:
2. “ALL scripture is …. beneficial for teaching, for setting things straight.” (2 tim 3:16,17)
My second question to you: Why do the only two accounts of birthdays in the Bible (Pharoah and Herod) both involve bloodshed of God's servants?
***********************************
Pharoah and Herod were constantly celebrating! Quite possibly it was a coincidence that the story being told happened to incorporate a birthday party? You see how these vague references allow us to speculate, and read into the text what we wish?When God gives us commandments or rules for living, we are not left to speculate. If God is displeased with something such as sexual immorality, he tells us through his prophets to avoid it. As far as I know, I've never read that we are supposed to avoid celebrating our birthdays?
David wrote:
If birthdays should be celebrated, why did God leave the date of His own Son's birth out of Holy Scripture?
*******************************
The Father himself celebrated when his Son was born. He sent a host of angels to sing (why else would he do this unless he was happy and wanted to “mark” the occasion?)Along these lines, I'm wondering about Jesus' bar mitzvah celebration – do you think Mary and Jo gave him one? I'm sure they did, but it's not recorded. Should all Christian/Jewish boys not have a bar mitzvah celebration because Jesus' bar wasn't recorded?
David wrote:
3. Yes, lots of things are pagan. Lots of things have idolatrous roots. Birthdays are one of them. The birthday observance was common in many polytheistic cultures. Idolatrous rites were performed in honor of the patron god of each particular birthday, and birthdays of mythical gods like Saturn and Apollo were celebrated.
*********************************
Again, like I shared with Elaine, Paul taught us that there are many idols and gods in the world. However, they are nothing at all because for US there is only One God, the Father. We are allowed to eat meat sacrificed to idols as long as we do not make another brother stumble.I believe you have it wrong on the birthdays, David. You believe that because pagens celebrate birthdays and because historians say early Christians didn't celebrate, that we should not celebrate either. But a lot of things were not recorded. John said that if everything was recorded the world could not contain all the books! Besides, why should the pagens have all the fun?
Their gods are nothing at all! I'll have my cake, if you please. David wrote:
If you think the quotes are wrong and the customs or origins are wrong, I ask you why the birthday cake? Why the candles? Find a source that explains it in another way.
***************************************
Again, the quotes and customs may be true, but they do not apply to me…..a child of the one true God.David wrote:
Over and over again in the references that I am looking at, I see that the early Christians didn't celebrate birthdays because of associating it with idolatry. Over and over again I see this
************************************
The references you are looking at are not scripture. Again, there are many idols and gods in the world, but we are not subject to them. Nor should we obstain from celebrations of life that pagens and the enemy have turned into evil. The devil will always turn what God has created for good into something evil. He is a liar and a theif.David wrote:
4. There is no scripture that says: “Birthdays are a no no.” Yet, the earliest Christians (no doubt discerning Biblical principles and understanding the history of birthdays) did not seem divided on this. It didn't seem to be a matter of conscience to them, but it seemed clearly wrong, something they all avoided, as a group.
************************************
With all due respect, you are assuming quite a bit here.Thanks for the chat, David. Unless you have Biblical principles, rules, or commandments concerning birthday and holiday celebrations, it really is up to the individual to determine what pleases the Lord. But I am certainly open to look at clear scripture that teaches on the subject. I am not interested in scripture that various groups can use to infer all kinds of restrictions they want to impose on their people. Again, when God makes commandments and rules for us to follow – he is clear.
David wrote:
WHAT DOES GOD THINK OF SUCH THINGS? God saw first hand where this celebration came from the the trail of blood that followed it. Is it just “innocent fun” to God? What do you think?
****************************
I don't know what God thinks of birthdays – he hasn't written anything about them.
I don't know what scripture you are talking about that says, “….God saw first hand where this celebration came from……”?I think God WANTS us to have “innocent fun”. He has given us abundant life in Christ! The joy of the LORD is our strength!
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 23 2007,14:49) David wrote:
WHAT DOES GOD THINK OF SUCH THINGS? God saw first hand where this celebration came from the the trail of blood that followed it. Is it just “innocent fun” to God? What do you think?
****************************
I don't know what God thinks of birthdays – he hasn't written anything about them.
I don't know what scripture you are talking about that says, “….God saw first hand where this celebration came from……”?I think God WANTS us to have “innocent fun”. He has given us abundant life in Christ! The joy of the LORD is our strength!
DO NOT STEAL:The Old Testament:
I was walking along and found a wallet. The wallet had money in it that was NOW mine. I didn't steal the wallet nor did I rob anyone. It was mine to keep because I found the wallet.
New Testament:
I was walking along and found a wallet. The wallet had money in it that I thought should be mine because I found the wallet. I didn't steal the wallet NOR did I rob anyone. BUT then the Spirit said to look in the wallet and find it's rightful owner and return it just as I found it.
Which Covenant/Testament are we under. Are all things written?
Peace and Love,
Ken
Quote (elaine1809 @ Aug. 24 2007,04:23) Question:In the old testament: was not he supposed to also look and see who it belongs to?
el,The commandment is shalt not steal. In the Old Testament they did not have the Spirit they had only the letter of the law. So finding the wallet meant he did not steal it.
Jesus showed this:
Mat 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.In the Old testament you could lust all you wanted and NOT sin. This is the righteousness of the Pharisees.
But the New Covenant we have the Spirit who convicts us when we look with lust.
The OT person “found” the wallet. To his way of thinking by the letter of the law he did not steal the wallet.
But the NT person is convicted by the Spirit to return the wallet to it's rightful owner.
Under the New Covenant we have the Holy Spirit and take things beyond what is written.
Under the New Covenant our righteousness exceeds that of the letter of the law.
Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
In His Peace and Love,
Ken
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
