Biblical rules about name-calling

[charity]

DON'T understand why Jesus would say to one disciple.. Take up your cross, when he said to another,
Well he never said I’m going to pay for everyone’s sins?

Isn't it Take up your own sins, as in Take up your cross?
And the rest of you are free….if you want to take the gamble that Christ is the only cross bearer, and well some has to have their Hands free, to Nail the cross carriers up for the wrong they do and the rules they break each day?

[942767]

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 11 2008,20:16)

Hi 90210 Quote It is God that says that you are foolish because you do not acknowledge that He is a reality. I hear nothing from any imaginary beings.  All I see is you telling me, like a child, that your invisible friend says I am foolish.  Responsibility for ones own words is so out of fashion, don’t you think?   Quote Perhaps the bible puts a bat in the category of a bird because in that series of scriptures God was referring to unclean creatures that fly. Science puts the bat in a different category. I am sure that the creator knows all about His creatures since He created them. Bats are mammals.  Birds are not.  I suppose with god any old sloppy thing will do. Quote I have been wrong on many things, and I have made many mistakes, but there is one thing that I know is for certain and that is that God is a reality and that His testimony regarding His Son and His Christ Jesus is true. There is no possibilty of being wrong about this. There is no possibility that there is a god of any kind.  This is absolutely true without any doubt at all.  I have a book that says that believers are foolish and should never be listened to.  This is all certainly completely right. Do I sound foolish writing that?  I should. Stuart

Hi Stu:

As I have stated: “The proof is in the pudding”.

[Stu]

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 12 2008,08:53)

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 11 2008,20:16) Hi 90210 Quote It is God that says that you are foolish because you do not acknowledge that He is a reality. I hear nothing from any imaginary beings.  All I see is you telling me, like a child, that your invisible friend says I am foolish.  Responsibility for ones own words is so out of fashion, don’t you think?   Quote Perhaps the bible puts a bat in the category of a bird because in that series of scriptures God was referring to unclean creatures that fly. Science puts the bat in a different category. I am sure that the creator knows all about His creatures since He created them. Bats are mammals.  Birds are not.  I suppose with god any old sloppy thing will do. Quote I have been wrong on many things, and I have made many mistakes, but there is one thing that I know is for certain and that is that God is a reality and that His testimony regarding His Son and His Christ Jesus is true. There is no possibilty of being wrong about this. There is no possibility that there is a god of any kind.  This is absolutely true without any doubt at all.  I have a book that says that believers are foolish and should never be listened to.  This is all certainly completely right. Do I sound foolish writing that?  I should. Stuart Hi Stu: As I have stated: “The proof is in the pudding”.

A bird in the hand is worth two bats in the bush.

Your proverb means nothing to me.

Stuart

[Proclaimer]

Proverbs are usually wise sayings.
Wisdom is a precious thing.
Not all have wisdom however.

[epistemaniac]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 13 2008,21:27)

Proverbs are usually wise sayings. Wisdom is a precious thing. Not all have wisdom however.

too true Nick…

Psalms 92:5-6 (ESV)
5 How great are your works, O Lord! Your thoughts are very deep! 6 The stupid man cannot know; the fool cannot understand this:

Proverbs 10:8 (ESV)
8 The wise of heart will receive commandments, but a babbling fool will come to ruin.

Romans 1:18-22 (ESV)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,”

sadly, I am beginning to think that the following apply to kejonn and stu:
Proverbs 14:7 (ESV)
7 Leave the presence of a fool, for there you do not meet words of knowledge.
as well as
Matt. 7:6a (ESV) 6a “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs,….”

blessings,
Ken

[Stu]

Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 14 2008,01:25)

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 13 2008,21:27) Proverbs are usually wise sayings. Wisdom is a precious thing. Not all have wisdom however. too true Nick… Psalms 92:5-6 (ESV) 5 How great are your works, O Lord! Your thoughts are very deep! 6 The stupid man cannot know; the fool cannot understand this: Proverbs 10:8 (ESV) 8 The wise of heart will receive commandments, but a babbling fool will come to ruin. Romans 1:18-22 (ESV) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,” sadly, I am beginning to think that the following apply to kejonn and stu: Proverbs 14:7 (ESV) 7 Leave the presence of a fool, for there you do not meet words of knowledge. as well as Matt. 7:6a (ESV) 6a   “Do not give  dogs what is holy, and do not throw your  pearls before pigs,….” blessings, Ken

This just shows you the defensive mindset of Paul and John. If this is the truth, why does the bible have to broadcast insults in its own defense? Any intelligent person should be suspicious of the motives of these political men straight away. I don't know what this post says about its poster…does your god require you to insult intelligent members of his creation on his behalf?

Stuart

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 17 2008,19:50)

Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 14 2008,01:25) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 13 2008,21:27) Proverbs are usually wise sayings. Wisdom is a precious thing. Not all have wisdom however. too true Nick… Psalms 92:5-6 (ESV) 5 How great are your works, O Lord! Your thoughts are very deep! 6 The stupid man cannot know; the fool cannot understand this: Proverbs 10:8 (ESV) 8 The wise of heart will receive commandments, but a babbling fool will come to ruin. Romans 1:18-22 (ESV) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,” sadly, I am beginning to think that the following apply to kejonn and stu: Proverbs 14:7 (ESV) 7 Leave the presence of a fool, for there you do not meet words of knowledge. as well as Matt. 7:6a (ESV) 6a   “Do not give  dogs what is holy, and do not throw your  pearls before pigs,….” blessings, Ken This just shows you the defensive mindset of Paul and John.  If this is the truth, why does the bible have to broadcast insults in its own defense?  Any intelligent person should be suspicious of the motives of these political men straight away.  I don't know what this post says about its poster…does your god require you to insult intelligent members of his creation on his behalf? Stuart

Truth can be insulting to people. But truth shouldn't be hidden because of offense.

Should the truth regarding the young girl who lipped synced a song at the opening of the Olympics be ignored lest we offend the Chinese government?

Should we say something about the way the Taliban treated women lest we offend the Taliban?

Truth is actually more important than offense. Yes there is a time to have tact, but there is also a time for the truth to be said.

[Stu]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 17 2008,20:36)

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 17 2008,19:50) Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 14 2008,01:25) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 13 2008,21:27) Proverbs are usually wise sayings. Wisdom is a precious thing. Not all have wisdom however. too true Nick… Psalms 92:5-6 (ESV) 5 How great are your works, O Lord! Your thoughts are very deep! 6 The stupid man cannot know; the fool cannot understand this: Proverbs 10:8 (ESV) 8 The wise of heart will receive commandments, but a babbling fool will come to ruin. Romans 1:18-22 (ESV) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,” sadly, I am beginning to think that the following apply to kejonn and stu: Proverbs 14:7 (ESV) 7 Leave the presence of a fool, for there you do not meet words of knowledge. as well as Matt. 7:6a (ESV) 6a   “Do not give  dogs what is holy, and do not throw your  pearls before pigs,….” blessings, Ken This just shows you the defensive mindset of Paul and John.  If this is the truth, why does the bible have to broadcast insults in its own defense?  Any intelligent person should be suspicious of the motives of these political men straight away.  I don't know what this post says about its poster…does your god require you to insult intelligent members of his creation on his behalf? Stuart Truth can be insulting to people. But truth shouldn't be hidden because of offense. Should the truth regarding the young girl who lipped synced a song at the opening of the Olympics be ignored lest we offend the Chinese government? Should we say something about the way the Taliban treated women lest we offend the Taliban? Truth is actually more important than offense. Yes there is a time to have tact, but there is also a time for the truth to be said.

Were you addressing my post? Why didn't you have a go at answering the question?

Stuart

[Proclaimer]

I did.

I said that truth can be insulting to people. So the reason why scripture maybe insulting is because it speaks the truth.

If the truth is hidden then it is like putting a light under a blanket.

What matters is the truth and not the feelings of someone who may be offended.

Sure it is wise to have tact, but there comes a time when saying it as it is is the best way. e.g., “don't go any further because you will fall off a cliff”. “The fool has said in his heart that there is no God.”

You get the idea.

[Stu]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 18 2008,21:27)

I did. I said that truth can be insulting to people. So the reason why scripture maybe insulting is because it speaks the truth. If the truth is hidden then it is like putting a light under a blanket. What matters is the truth and not the feelings of someone who may be offended. Sure it is wise to have tact, but there comes a time when saying it as it is is the best way. e.g., “don't go any further because you will fall off a cliff”. “The fool has said in his heart that there is no God.” You get the idea.

The question was not 'why do some people find the bible insulting', it was why does the bible need to explicitly insult people who are also supposedly created by god? Biology textbooks contain truth but their authors don't feel the need to soehow make the truth more credibile by telling biologists that creationists are fools. The real reason is that the mythology has credibility that is so paper thin that the authors' most convincing bolstering trick is to insult non-believers. Some of the most intelligent people on the planet are atheists and it is objectively true they are not fools. Of course the christian apologist dictionary probably defines fool as non-believer. With god, words can mean anything you like.

Is god competent, or is he like a malevolent parent who regrets having some children to the point of insulting or disowning them altogether? 'His' own 'son' claimed to have been forsaken by him (or else he was forsaken by himself as a universal sacrifice for humans breaking the rules he made up himself, if you are a trinitarian). What a poor parenting role model 'He' is.

Stuart

[Lightenup]

God loves you, Stu, inspite of how you think of Him. He loves you so much that He gave His only begotten Son to pay for your sins by dying on the cross, believe it or not, Stu. He loves you with an everlasting love. I don't want you to feel bad. Someday you will know this to be true.

I'm wondering, how you would answer this: If there was a loving God, what should He do with those He created that chose not to believe Him but blatantly reject Him?
LU

[Stu]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2008,10:06)

God loves you, Stu, inspite of how you think of Him.  He loves you so much that He gave His only begotten Son to pay for your sins by dying on the cross, believe it or not, Stu.  He loves you with an everlasting love.  I don't want you to feel bad.  Someday you will know this to be true. I'm wondering, how you would answer this:  If there was a loving God, what should He do with those He created that chose not to believe Him but blatantly reject Him? LU

What a silly question to ask an atheist. I can't dream up fantasy for you. What would the Flying Spaghetti Monster (bless his noodly appendage) do if people stopped buying pasta sauce? Do you think tsk-tsking and smiting would be a good idea for him?

Anyway, I did not ask for Jesus to be judicially executed. Sin is a religious idea, I am not religious and therefore I do not sin, so there is no payment due. Those who thrive on the death of another human are sick in the head in my opinion.

Stuart

[Lightenup]

Quote (Stu @ Sep. 14 2008,05:30)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2008,10:06) God loves you, Stu, inspite of how you think of Him.  He loves you so much that He gave His only begotten Son to pay for your sins by dying on the cross, believe it or not, Stu.  He loves you with an everlasting love.  I don't want you to feel bad.  Someday you will know this to be true. I'm wondering, how you would answer this:  If there was a loving God, what should He do with those He created that chose not to believe Him but blatantly reject Him? LU What a silly question to ask an atheist.  I can't dream up fantasy for you.  What would the Flying Spaghetti Monster (bless his noodly appendage) do if people stopped buying pasta sauce?  Do you think tsk-tsking and smiting would be a good idea for him? Anyway, I did not ask for Jesus to be judicially executed.  Sin is a religious idea, I am not religious and therefore I do not sin, so there is no payment due.  Those who thrive on the death of another human are sick in the head in my opinion. Stuart

Hi Stu,
Thanks for trying.

Quote

Do you think tsk-tsking and smiting would be a good idea for him?

Do you think that sacrificing something precious for your benefit would be a good idea for Him?

Quote

Those who thrive on the death of another human are sick in the head in my opinion.

You forgot the best part…He lives again. Amazing, huh?

Quote

I am not religious and therefore I do not sin, so there is no payment due.

I am not religious either. BTW religion doesn't cause you to sin. Do you know what sin is? Have you ever lied? Be truthful now.

He still loves you!
LU

[Stu]

Hi Lightenup

Quote

Thanks for trying.

For trying what?

Stu: Do you think tsk-tsking and smiting would be a good idea for him?

Quote

Do you think that sacrificing something precious for your benefit would be a good idea for Him?

Your god has confessed to killing between 2,300,000 and 32,000,000 humans. The innocent died alongside the ‘sinners’ in most of the genocides ‘He’ committed. If there was such a celestial monster, I thing we should be working out how to stop ‘Him’ smiting people, don’t you? Do you pray in gratitude to that thankfully unlikely monster?

Stu: Those who thrive on the death of another human are sick in the head in my opinion.

Quote

You forgot the best part…He lives again. Amazing, huh?

What is the evidence for that? Where are the eyewitness accounts of someone returning to life? Saul of Tarsus (the man who probably immunised you against critical thinking) wants you to think that. Have you ever questioned it?

Stu: I am not religious and therefore I do not sin, so there is no payment due.

Quote

I am not religious either. BTW religion doesn't cause you to sin. Do you know what sin is? Have you ever lied? Be truthful now.

I think you are religious. My dictionary says you are. Of course the christian dictionary is famous for changing definitions to suit. With god, any old definitions are fine. Yes of course I have lied. Do you understand the importance of lying in human development? The subtle details of the kinds of lies we tell and the reasons are ignored by an OT rule that reads like it was written by someone with Asperger’s syndrome (no disrespect intended to people with autism). The bible is blind to the nuances of human existence. Sin is a ridiculous political invention. I make a point of coveting my neighbour’s domestic animals and spend the sabbath furiously working on graven images to worship. So what? Here you are accusing me of nameless things and you don’t even know me. You assume the worst of me. Is that what Jesus tells you to do from beyond the grave?

Quote

He still loves you!

I am not into necrophilia.

Stuart

[Lightenup]

Hi Stu,
I don't believe that I have accused you of anything. Maybe you could show me where if that is what you think. I have only posted to you two other times and both of them are on page 4 of this topic.

I'm glad that you are not a necrophilia, me either, that's nasty. Jesus lives, several saw Him alive after His crucifixion. They believed in that truth and were willing to die for it. Some were even burned alive. God gives life and He takes life and then gives new life to enjoy Him without the curse of sin, forever. Those that died for their beliefs in Him also live again. There is appreciation of the sacrifice and focus on the hope of reward, a life without hate and lies and curse forever. I don't dwell on dead corpses, yuk!

You speak of me assuming the worst of you. Do you “assume” that or can you show me evidence of that? I don't assume the worst of you, Stu. If I did, I wouldn't take my time writing to you.

You also speak of “critical thinking” yet you give a definition of sin as a “ridiculus political invention”. What dictionary defines sin as that? I suppose that you could consider me religious in a sense of the word and I could consider you religious in a sense of the word. You and I religiously get on Heaven Net and you are religious about contributing your posts here. See how that works?

The living God loves you, Stu.
LU

[Stu]

Hi Lightenup

Quote

I don't believe that I have accused you of anything. Maybe you could show me where if that is what you think.

You wrote: He gave His only begotten Son to pay for your sin
That is an accusation you are making. I called it nameless because you did not say what ethical wrongs you mean, you tried to entrap me with the lying suggestion, which honestly is pathetic.

Quote

Jesus lives, several saw Him alive after His crucifixion. They believed in that truth and were willing to die for it. Some were even burned alive.

Who wrote that? No one who saw it. None willing to say how they ‘knew’ it. That is all blind guesswork done much later by zealots already converted to the fantasy. Do you think islamic suicide bombers are deluded? They get burned too.

Quote

God gives life and He takes life and then gives new life to enjoy Him without the curse of sin, forever. Those that died for their beliefs in Him also live again. There is appreciation of the sacrifice and focus on the hope of reward, a life without hate and lies and curse forever.

You just asserting it does not make it true. It reads as childish.

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I don't dwell on dead corpses, yuk!

You dwell on the death of a human.

Quote

You speak of me assuming the worst of you. Do you “assume” that or can you show me evidence of that? I don't assume the worst of you, Stu. If I did, I wouldn't take my time writing to you.

See quote above. You assume I am a sinner. You assume the worst. Are you required to do that as a christian? I have never heard of one who did not make that arrogant assumption.

Quote

You also speak of “critical thinking” yet you give a definition of sin as a “ridiculus political invention”. What dictionary defines sin as that?

No dictionary defines sin that way. The religious bit is self-evident and the ridiculous bit is my considered opinion. Obviously.

Quote

I suppose that you could consider me religious in a sense of the word and I could consider you religious in a sense of the word. You and I religiously get on Heaven Net and you are religious about contributing your posts here. See how that works?

It’s not a very interesting point, is it? My dictionary says you are religious and I am not. Your converting the word metaphorically does not mean I believe in an imaginary friend in the sky.

Quote

The living God loves you, Stu.

I’m with Nietzsche on that one.

Stuart

[Lightenup]

Hi Stu,
Thank you for your response.
In response to “who saw it?” It was a requirement to have been a witness of the resurrection and to have followed Jesus in order to replace Judas as an apostle. It is written here:
Acts 1:21-26

21 “Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us– 22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us–one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23 So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen 25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.
NASU

Regarding people being willing to die for their belief in Jesus and those willing to die for their Islam faith, I have this to say:

Christians die for the benefit of man even if they don't believe in Jesus.
Suicide bombers die for the destruction of those who don't believe in their supposed god. Big difference!

So, suggesting that Jesus loves you and died for your sins surely did offend you, it seems. Sorry if it seemed like I was singling you out but I believe that mankind in general have the curse of sin and fall short of God's holiness. You say that you have not sinned because you don't believe in sin yet you admit that you lie. So, wouldn't that type of reasoning free every prisoner that was ever convicted for murder, rape, stealing, etc. because they could say that they don't believe in murder, rape, stealing, etc therefore it is not wrong and they should not be convicted of it? You don't sin but you lie??? Is lying not wrong in your opinion? Do you think it to be wrong when others lie to you? Would you rather I substituted the term “wrongs” for “sins”? God loves you and died for your “wrongs”. Isn't that just playing a semantic game?

You accuse me of assuming the worst of you then why would I say that God loves you? So defensive! I would think the opposite would be true such as if I said “God hates you and refused to send His Son to die for your sins because you are not worth it.” See the difference? If you are worth dying for, then God cares for you and suggests that you are worthwhile to Him to put His Son in that situation and go through all that suffering. That assumes the best of you, you are worth it. I know that you didn't ask Him to do that for you yet He did it anyway. When my kids do something great without being asked to do it, I call that wonderful!

LU

[Stu]

Hi Lightenup

Quote

In response to “who saw it?” It was a requirement to have been a witness of the resurrection and to have followed Jesus in order to replace Judas as an apostle. It is written here: Acts 1:21-26

And who wrote Acts? Someone who was an eyewitness? I think not!

Quote

Regarding people being willing to die for their belief in Jesus and those willing to die for their Islam faith, I have this to say: Christians die for the benefit of man even if they don't believe in Jesus. Suicide bombers die for the destruction of those who don't believe in their supposed god. Big difference!

How did the death of any christian martyr ‘benefit man’? How is dying for a cause an indicator of truth of that cause?

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So, suggesting that Jesus loves you and died for your sins surely did offend you, it seems.

It’s not true so how could it really offend me?

Quote

Sorry if it seemed like I was singling you out but I believe that mankind in general have the curse of sin and fall short of God's holiness.

This stuff comes out of christians like an endless stream of unthinking bile. We know better about human nature than this. This is the ignorant fairytale of the ancients. Just as well you don’t rely on their remedies when you get a bacterial infection!

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You say that you have not sinned because you don't believe in sin yet you admit that you lie. So, wouldn't that type of reasoning free every prisoner that was ever convicted for murder, rape, stealing, etc. because they could say that they don't believe in murder, rape, stealing, etc therefore it is not wrong and they should not be convicted of it? You don't sin but you lie??? Is lying not wrong in your opinion? Do you think it to be wrong when others lie to you? Would you rather I substituted the term “wrongs” for “sins”? God loves you and died for your “wrongs”. Isn't that just playing a semantic game?

No. I don’t think you read my post. I do not sin because I do not recognise the concept of ‘sin’ as something that anyone should respect. That does not mean I agree that people should be allowed to kill others. Quite the reverse: you require the death of at least one human; I require the death of none to live a good life.

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You accuse me of assuming the worst of you then why would I say that God loves you?

Because that is all part of the corporate strategy of ChristianityTM. Make people feel tiny then give them a fairtytale that they can be part of that restores their self-worth but this time under the control of a religious leader. The armed services use that method all the time to maintain discipline. The idea is that your loyalty to the sergeant major, and the team, becomes greater than your own thinking. That is great for the army but intellectual death for the individual. Are you intellectually dead? You seem to believe without question lots of things that have been shown to be highly questionable. And that is being gentle!

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I would think the opposite would be true such as if I said “God hates you and refused to send His Son to die for your sins because you are not worth it.” See the difference? If you are worth dying for, then God cares for you and suggests that you are worthwhile to Him to put His Son in that situation and go through all that suffering. That assumes the best of you, you are worth it. I know that you didn't ask Him to do that for you yet He did it anyway.

What do you think of people who try to ‘help’ others when they have made it patently clear that no ‘help’ is required? Do you use the word ‘busybody’? I’d rather not have anything to do with a self-confessed mass murderer that commands others not to murder, let alone accept ‘his’ help and all the litres of blood that it is soaked with. I don’t need his judgement, especially when ‘he’ tells others not to judge. How hypocritical can an imaginary friend get?

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When my kids do something great without being asked to do it, I call that wonderful!

As we all should. Are you mentioning children here as an emotional appeal? I can’t see what it has to do with the rest of your paragraph. I feel tremendously sorry for the children of the JWs who are expected to accompany their prostyletising parents on their visits to our door. You know the horrible feeling you get when you think that a child is being abused in some way? That is the same feeling I get when those children appear on the doorstep. They are being intellectually abused by their parents by being told the nasty lies they will go to hell if they are not saved and that evolution is the work of satan, etc, etc.

Stuart

[Lightenup]

Hi Stuart,

Quote

How did the death of any christian martyr ‘benefit man’? How is dying for a cause an indicator of truth of that cause?

You asked how the death of any christian martyr benefit man. There was a man named Jim Elliot and his purpose was to evangelize Ecuador's Quichua Indians who killed him and one of the results of that action led to the evangelizing of these people and many good things have happened because of this man and his buddies being willing to risk their lives for the benefit of others.

Elliot and Fleming arrived in Ecuador on February 21, 1952, with the purpose of evangelizing Ecuador's Quichua Indians. They first stayed in Quito studying Spanish, and then moved to the jungle. They took up permanent residence at the Shandia mission station. On October 8, 1953, he married fellow Wheaton alumna and missionary Elisabeth Howard. The wedding was a simple civil ceremony held in Quito. Ed and Marilou McCully were the witnesses. The couple then took a brief honeymoon to Panama and Costa Rica, then returned to Ecuador. Their only child, Valerie, was born February 27, 1955. While working with the Quichua Indians, Elliot began preparing to reach the violent Huaorani Indian tribe which were known at the time as the Aucas.

He and four other missionaries, Ed McCully, Roger Youderian, Pete Fleming, and their pilot, Nate Saint, made contact from their airplane with the Huaorani Indians using a loudspeaker and a basket to pass down gifts. After several months, the men decided to build a base a short distance from the Indian village, along the Curaray River. There they were approached one time by a small group of Huaorani Indians and even gave an airplane ride to one curious Huaorani whom they called “George” (his real name was Naenkiwi). Encouraged by these friendly encounters, they began plans to visit the Huaorani,without knowing that George had lied to the others but their plans were preempted by the arrival of a larger group of 10 Huaorani men, who killed Elliot and his four companions on January 8, 1956. Elliot's mutilated body was found downstream, along with those of the other men, except that of Ed McCully.

Elliot's famous journal entry from Oct 28, 1949His journal entry for October 28, 1949, contains his now famous quotation, expressing his belief that missions work was more important than his life.

“ He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose. „

[edit] Legacy

Wheaton College commemorating Elliot and Ed McCullyElliot and his friends became instantly known worldwide as martyrs,[23] and Life Magazine published a ten-page article on their mission and death. They are credited with sparking an interest in Christian missions among the youth of their time and are still considered an encouragement to Christian missionaries working throughout the world. After her husband's death, Elisabeth Elliot and other missionaries began working among the Auca (Huaorani) Indians, where they had a profound impact and helped bring many people to Christ. She later published two books, Shadow of the Almighty: The Life and Testament of Jim Elliot and Through Gates of Splendor, which describe the life and death of her husband.

In 1991, the Jim Elliot Christian School was created in Denver, Colorado.

And in 1997 the Jim Elliot Christian High School was founded in Lodi, CA

In 2002, a documentary based on the story was released entitled Beyond the Gates of Splendor. In 2003, a musical based on the story of Jim and Elisabeth Elliot, entitled Love Above All, was staged at the Victoria Concert Hall in Singapore by Mount Carmel Bible-Presbyterian Church. This musical was staged a second time in 2007 at the NUS University Cultural Centre.

In 2006, a theatrical movie was released End of the Spear, based on the story of the pilot, Nate Saint, and the return trip of Saint's son attempting to reach the natives of Ecuador

Feast of Stephen, Deacon, First Martyr, the man who will not act until he knows all will never act at all.
Jim Elliot

God always gives His best to those who leave the choice with him.
Jim Elliot

Grieve not, then, if your sons seem to desert you, but rejoice, rather, seeing the will of God done gladly.
Jim Elliot

He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose.
Jim Elliot

He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.
Jim Elliot

I many no longer depend on pleasant impulses to bring me before the Lord. I must rather response to principles I know to be right, whether I feel them to be enjoyable or not.
Jim Elliot

It is true that a fellow cannot ignore women – but he can think of them as he ought – as sisters, not as sparring partners.
Jim Elliot

Most laws condemn the soul and pronounce sentence. The result of the law of my God is perfect. It condemns but forgives. It restores – more than abundantly – what it takes away.
Jim Elliot

[Stu]

Hi Lightenup

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You asked how the death of any christian martyr benefit man. There was a man named Jim Elliot and his purpose was to evangelize Ecuador's Quichua Indians who killed him and one of the results of that action led to the evangelizing of these people and many good things have happened because of this man and his buddies being willing to risk their lives for the benefit of others. Wheaton College commemorating Elliot and Ed McCullyElliot and his friends became instantly known worldwide as martyrs,[23] and Life Magazine published a ten-page article on their mission and death. They are credited with sparking an interest in Christian missions among the youth of their time

Like I said, how is that a benefit? Lightenup do you understand the word ‘benefit’? The history of Western colonisation and mission has been one disaster after another for those being colonised. You could argue about the benefits to those native peoples of Western technology but generally the missionaries brought medieval mythology and syphilis. This Jim Elliot just wanted to spread his uninformed christian bigotry regardless of the people who would suffer him. That same Wikipedia article you quote says:
He was not even fully convinced of the value of his studies, considering subjects like philosophy, politics, and culture to be distractions to one attempting to follow God.
That shows this idiot’s bigotry. He was permanently on ‘talk’ and never on ‘listen’. What business did he have in attempting any cultural change in Ecuador?

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Most laws condemn the soul and pronounce sentence. The result of the law of my God is perfect. It condemns but forgives. It restores – more than abundantly – what it takes away. Jim Elliot

…unless you are gay or an adulterer in which case the judgement is death by stoning. Did he ever preach that?

Stuart

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