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Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2008,22:51) Hello Cato and Kejonn,
I've noticed lately that although you discount the notion that the Bible is God's infallible revelation of Himself, you still hold some firm conclusions about His nature. I was wondering if you could tell me, where you have sourced your information about God?Interested in you comments.
Blessings
Huh? I don't attribute any of the brutality of the OT to God, but to Yahweh. Yahweh to me is the inaccurate view of God by the bronze age Hebrews. So I believe the OT slanders God.Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2008,23:01) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 17 2008,06:58) Quote (kejonn @ April 17 2008,00:30) Quote (theodorej @ April 16 2008,07:11) So in closing the slaughter of women and children are the acts of men who have no regard for God let alone his commandments….
You do realize it was Yahweh and his chosen people who were slaughtering the women and children, right?
Evidently he didn't know that was who we were talking about
all along.Tim
A couple of things I would add here is:1) YHWH did not cause a complete cessation to the existence of anyone He was complicit in putting to death. If they were saved (which I think is true of all children, who have no comprehension of the Law that ultimately convicts the unrepentant sinner) then they evidently went to a far better place. If not then they await judgement in a worse one, but they are without excuse.
Most of the people killed in the OT were unaware of the Law, bot h children and adults. They were basically killed because they were not Israelites. Thus they had no opportunity to “repent”.
Quote 2) YHWH was not responsible for the senseless killing of anyone. There was always a greater purpose in their deaths. Moreover, usually there was a lot of forewarning involved beofre the calamity was visited upon a nation, where the consequences for disobendience were spelt out unequivocally and then some considerable time given for repentance.
You say this but do not back it up whatsoever. This is just another attempt to cover up the brutality of Yahweh. Face it, the OT portrays God as a brutal tyrant god, not at all appropriate of a benevolent Creator who loves His creation.Quote (kejonn @ April 20 2008,20:04) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2008,22:51) Hello Cato and Kejonn,
I've noticed lately that although you discount the notion that the Bible is God's infallible revelation of Himself, you still hold some firm conclusions about His nature. I was wondering if you could tell me, where you have sourced your information about God?Interested in you comments.
Blessings
Huh? I don't attribute any of the brutality of the OT to God, but to Yahweh. Yahweh to me is the inaccurate view of God by the bronze age Hebrews. So I believe the OT slanders God.
Huh? I didn't assert that you did “attribute any of the brutality of the OT to God, but to Yahweh” in my post. Did you read it? I questioned you on the source of your knowledge of God.Quote (kejonn @ April 20 2008,20:09) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2008,23:01) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 17 2008,06:58) Quote (kejonn @ April 17 2008,00:30) Quote (theodorej @ April 16 2008,07:11) So in closing the slaughter of women and children are the acts of men who have no regard for God let alone his commandments….
You do realize it was Yahweh and his chosen people who were slaughtering the women and children, right?
Evidently he didn't know that was who we were talking about
all along.Tim
A couple of things I would add here is:1) YHWH did not cause a complete cessation to the existence of anyone He was complicit in putting to death. If they were saved (which I think is true of all children, who have no comprehension of the Law that ultimately convicts the unrepentant sinner) then they evidently went to a far better place. If not then they await judgement in a worse one, but they are without excuse.
Most of the people killed in the OT were unaware of the Law, bot h children and adults. They were basically killed because they were not Israelites. Thus they had no opportunity to “repent”.
Quote 2) YHWH was not responsible for the senseless killing of anyone. There was always a greater purpose in their deaths. Moreover, usually there was a lot of forewarning involved beofre the calamity was visited upon a nation, where the consequences for disobendience were spelt out unequivocally and then some considerable time given for repentance.
You say this but do not back it up whatsoever. This is just another attempt to cover up the brutality of Yahweh. Face it, the OT portrays God as a brutal tyrant god, not at all appropriate of a benevolent Creator who loves His creation.
Kejonn, I think you need to read the link I posted earlier in this thread. It addresses a lot of your faulty assumptions.Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2008,03:30) Kejonn, I think you need to read the link I posted earlier in this thread. It addresses a lot of your faulty assumptions.
Read bits an pieces but all I saw was excuses. It boiled down to “waht is evil” and the then the writer tries to convince us that what Yahweh did was not evil.So, what makes this person's assumptions — or yours — any more faulty than mine? Its the 21st century and humans for the most part have evolved beyond such barbaric ideals. A perfect God would not have written a book that makes less and less sense as time progresses.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2008,03:25) Quote (kejonn @ April 20 2008,20:04) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2008,22:51) Hello Cato and Kejonn,
I've noticed lately that although you discount the notion that the Bible is God's infallible revelation of Himself, you still hold some firm conclusions about His nature. I was wondering if you could tell me, where you have sourced your information about God?Interested in you comments.
Blessings
Huh? I don't attribute any of the brutality of the OT to God, but to Yahweh. Yahweh to me is the inaccurate view of God by the bronze age Hebrews. So I believe the OT slanders God.
Huh? I didn't assert that you did “attribute any of the brutality of the OT to God, but to Yahweh” in my post. Did you read it? I questioned you on the source of your knowledge of God.
My source of knowledge of God was the bible at one point. Until I ventured outside of a certain scriptural box that painted God as truly love. The I happened to read more of it. At a certain point I knew that the God I had come to know could not have been the God that inspired the OT.I think you'd find that a large portion of atheists were ex-Christians . Many of them turn away from God and quit believing based solely on the bible. This saddens me, but I'm thankful that I could hold on to the view of God I've always had because I know that Yahweh is not a valid view of Him.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2008,16:01) 2) YHWH was not responsible for the senseless killing of anyone. There was always a greater purpose in their deaths. Moreover, usually there was a lot of forewarning involved beofre the calamity was visited upon a nation, where the consequences for disobendience were spelt out unequivocally and then some considerable time given for repentance.
I imagine you would attrubute your strong inbuilt sense of natural justice to a creator (the actual means by which it arose is much more interesting). Would you agree that a worthy punishment for attempting to steady god's ark was death?Is it naturally just that entire populations were slaughtered, including women and children, for sins attributable to men?
Why does god give you this sense of justice then confound it so often? Is god just trying to confuse? Did Uzzah know he would be killed by god if he attempted to steady the ark? If Uzzah's slaughter is not 'senseless' then I'm not sure how you could define it.
Stuart
Of course it is all speculation, but who would have been killed had the ark fallen to the ground?
I still have yet to see s single person address the passage where 2 bears kill 42 boys because they called Elijah “bald head”.
A little more than meets the eye in 2 Kings 2:23-24 Kejonn. Try these links. You need to do a little research before you jump to conclusions.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Elisha-baldhead.html
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=827Quote (kejonn @ April 21 2008,01:06) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2008,03:25) Quote (kejonn @ April 20 2008,20:04) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2008,22:51) Hello Cato and Kejonn,
I've noticed lately that although you discount the notion that the Bible is God's infallible revelation of Himself, you still hold some firm conclusions about His nature. I was wondering if you could tell me, where you have sourced your information about God?Interested in you comments.
Blessings
Huh? I don't attribute any of the brutality of the OT to God, but to Yahweh. Yahweh to me is the inaccurate view of God by the bronze age Hebrews. So I believe the OT slanders God.
Huh? I didn't assert that you did “attribute any of the brutality of the OT to God, but to Yahweh” in my post. Did you read it? I questioned you on the source of your knowledge of God.
My source of knowledge of God was the bible at one point. Until I ventured outside of a certain scriptural box that painted God as truly love. The I happened to read more of it. At a certain point I knew that the God I had come to know could not have been the God that inspired the OT.I think you'd find that a large portion of atheists were ex-Christians . Many of them turn away from God and quit believing based solely on the bible. This saddens me, but I'm thankful that I could hold on to the view of God I've always had because I know that Yahweh is not a valid view of Him.
Kejonn. I am still none-the-wiser as to where you have sourced you CURRENT knowledge of God. Can you be specific please?Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 23 2008,19:34) Quote (kejonn @ April 21 2008,01:06) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2008,03:25) Quote (kejonn @ April 20 2008,20:04) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2008,22:51) Hello Cato and Kejonn,
I've noticed lately that although you discount the notion that the Bible is God's infallible revelation of Himself, you still hold some firm conclusions about His nature. I was wondering if you could tell me, where you have sourced your information about God?Interested in you comments.
Blessings
Huh? I don't attribute any of the brutality of the OT to God, but to Yahweh. Yahweh to me is the inaccurate view of God by the bronze age Hebrews. So I believe the OT slanders God.
Huh? I didn't assert that you did “attribute any of the brutality of the OT to God, but to Yahweh” in my post. Did you read it? I questioned you on the source of your knowledge of God.
My source of knowledge of God was the bible at one point. Until I ventured outside of a certain scriptural box that painted God as truly love. The I happened to read more of it. At a certain point I knew that the God I had come to know could not have been the God that inspired the OT.I think you'd find that a large portion of atheists were ex-Christians . Many of them turn away from God and quit believing based solely on the bible. This saddens me, but I'm thankful that I could hold on to the view of God I've always had because I know that Yahweh is not a valid view of Him.
Kejonn. I am still none-the-wiser as to where you have sourced you CURRENT knowledge of God. Can you be specific please? hi friendI don't know, can we draw a little from the source within
Or dose it aLL need to be drawn FROM someone elseS thoughts and shared sources? nO cHANGES?EVERYONE TALKS ABOUT THE WEATHER,
BUT CAN THEY DO ANTHING ABOUT IT?Quote (kejonn @ April 21 2008,00:56) Read bits an pieces but all I saw was excuses. It boiled down to “waht is evil” and the then the writer tries to convince us that what Yahweh did was not evil.
Really. Where specifically did you see his logic break down? What was it that he wrote that was erroneous in your opinion? It's one thing to make general statements of a perjorative nature. So much hard to rationally critique an erudite argument.Quote Its the 21st century and humans for the most part have evolved beyond such barbaric ideals.
Evolved or devolved? Are your ethics higher that the Creator's? Get real.
Quote A perfect God would not have written a book that makes less and less sense as time progresses.
Less and less sense TO YOU kejonn. Don't generalise. With your attitude toward the integrity of scripture you're in the tiniest of minorities within christendom Kejonn.Quote (charity @ April 23 2008,19:44) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 23 2008,19:34) Quote (kejonn @ April 21 2008,01:06) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2008,03:25) Quote (kejonn @ April 20 2008,20:04) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2008,22:51) Hello Cato and Kejonn,
I've noticed lately that although you discount the notion that the Bible is God's infallible revelation of Himself, you still hold some firm conclusions about His nature. I was wondering if you could tell me, where you have sourced your information about God?Interested in you comments.
Blessings
Huh? I don't attribute any of the brutality of the OT to God, but to Yahweh. Yahweh to me is the inaccurate view of God by the bronze age Hebrews. So I believe the OT slanders God.
Huh? I didn't assert that you did “attribute any of the brutality of the OT to God, but to Yahweh” in my post. Did you read it? I questioned you on the source of your knowledge of God.
My source of knowledge of God was the bible at one point. Until I ventured outside of a certain scriptural box that painted God as truly love. The I happened to read more of it. At a certain point I knew that the God I had come to know could not have been the God that inspired the OT.I think you'd find that a large portion of atheists were ex-Christians . Many of them turn away from God and quit believing based solely on the bible. This saddens me, but I'm thankful that I could hold on to the view of God I've always had because I know that Yahweh is not a valid view of Him.
Kejonn. I am still none-the-wiser as to where you have sourced you CURRENT knowledge of God. Can you be specific please? hi friendI don't know, can we draw a little from the source within
Or dose it aLL need to be drawn someone else thoughts and shared sources?
Hello Charity. I hope life is treating you well. Well the point is that all knowledge has to have some source. Otherwise you are just making stuff up, guessing, right? To my mind scripture is a very reliable source. Do you agree?Hi IS
The bottom line is the scripture is as reliable as the deliverer, which is considered intercession between God Man
I am not sure why people are so offended?
If we were born in the jungle like Gorge was! hehe, we would not have been so inordinate with all forms of knowledge
The balance of Learnt knowledge has out weighed the Natural spirit of the Albert Einstein in menHow are your children?…
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 23 2008,02:34) Quote (kejonn @ April 21 2008,01:06) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2008,03:25) Quote (kejonn @ April 20 2008,20:04) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2008,22:51) Hello Cato and Kejonn,
I've noticed lately that although you discount the notion that the Bible is God's infallible revelation of Himself, you still hold some firm conclusions about His nature. I was wondering if you could tell me, where you have sourced your information about God?Interested in you comments.
Blessings
Huh? I don't attribute any of the brutality of the OT to God, but to Yahweh. Yahweh to me is the inaccurate view of God by the bronze age Hebrews. So I believe the OT slanders God.
Huh? I didn't assert that you did “attribute any of the brutality of the OT to God, but to Yahweh” in my post. Did you read it? I questioned you on the source of your knowledge of God.
My source of knowledge of God was the bible at one point. Until I ventured outside of a certain scriptural box that painted God as truly love. The I happened to read more of it. At a certain point I knew that the God I had come to know could not have been the God that inspired the OT.I think you'd find that a large portion of atheists were ex-Christians . Many of them turn away from God and quit believing based solely on the bible. This saddens me, but I'm thankful that I could hold on to the view of God I've always had because I know that Yahweh is not a valid view of Him.
Kejonn. I am still none-the-wiser as to where you have sourced you CURRENT knowledge of God. Can you be specific please?
Walk outside and look. Study you friends and family. God is reflected in everything He has made.Now you can check out another source for me at The Gathas of Zarathushtra
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 23 2008,02:45) Quote (kejonn @ April 21 2008,00:56) Read bits an pieces but all I saw was excuses. It boiled down to “waht is evil” and the then the writer tries to convince us that what Yahweh did was not evil.
Really. Where specifically did you see his logic break down? What was it that he wrote that was erroneous in your opinion? It's one thing to make general statements of a perjorative nature. So much hard to rationally critique an erudite argument.
I don't have time presently to go back and point it out, but will try to get to it later.Quote Quote Its the 21st century and humans for the most part have evolved beyond such barbaric ideals.
Evolved or devolved? Are your ethics higher that the Creator's? Get real.
Where did you see I ever said they were? Oh wait, you, like most fundamentalists, think the bible IS God. My bad. I see it as a book that reflects the mindset of bronze and iron aged Hebrew men. God created them in His image and the Hebrews returned the favor.I don't worship a book Is. You can do that if you like.
Quote Quote A perfect God would not have written a book that makes less and less sense as time progresses.
Less and less sense TO YOU kejonn. Don't generalise. With your attitude toward the integrity of scripture you're in the tiniest of minorities within christendom Kejonn.
I am not in Christendom
. I think you'd find there were many more liberal Christians though. You know, the kind of Christians who believe in Jesus and God and that's about it? I'll have to find the link that Stu through out, but only in Poland and the USA do great percentages believe certain fundamentals about the bible.
Ah, here it is: COMPARING U.S. RELIGIOUS BELIEFS WITH OTHER “CHRISTIAN” COUNTRIES
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 23 2008,02:32) A little more than meets the eye in 2 Kings 2:23-24 Kejonn. Try these links. You need to do a little research before you jump to conclusions. http://www.gotquestions.org/Elisha-baldhead.html
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=827
Do Apologists work for Bill Clinton?Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 23 2008,02:32) A little more than meets the eye in 2 Kings 2:23-24 Kejonn. Try these links. You need to do a little research before you jump to conclusions. http://www.gotquestions.org/Elisha-baldhead.html
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=827
From the first link:- In summary, 2 Kings 2:23-24 is not an account of God mauling young children for making fun of a bald man. Rather, 2 Kings 2:23-24 is a record of an insulting demonstration against God’s prophet by a large group of young men.
So insulting a prophet is worthy of death now Isaiah? And you see why I say this doesn't work in the 21st century?
Unless of course you secret wish death upon people who insult you. At least Jesus had better morals than that.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 23 2008,02:45) Quote (kejonn @ April 21 2008,00:56) Read bits an pieces but all I saw was excuses. It boiled down to “waht is evil” and the then the writer tries to convince us that what Yahweh did was not evil.
Really. Where specifically did you see his logic break down? What was it that he wrote that was erroneous in your opinion? It's one thing to make general statements of a perjorative nature. So much hard to rationally critique an erudite argument.
It started breaking down from this passage on:- While I would agree that I would find it offensive if God made animals (with requisite nervous systems) to simply torture them (cf. Proverbs 12.10 A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel.), I consider that RADICALLY different that God making animals, demonstrating His goodness to them by a natural life-cycle and preservation of the species, and eventually causing cessation of consciousness. I don't see this as evil as all; in fact, I have to consider it evidence for God's goodness–just like the Psalmist did:
However, if Yahwe did indeed flood the whole world, he deprived them of this natural life cycle. The writer made a similar statement about humans, but again, anywhere from 14-27 million people were deprived of the natural cycle. Yes, that is the estimated world population from 3000 to 2000 BCE.
BTW, strange how the supposed flood didn't seem to hinder the population…but its the view of God that counts, not whether it actually happened.
Again, it gets back to the Mark Twain saying (paraphrased) “God created man in his image and man returned the favor”
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