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ok. my friend keeps talking and says if God is so loving and all, (if you led an awesome life and did everything he said and all he wanted you to) but didn't believe, would they be sent to hell…yes, i know, but why? thats what he keeps asking too. I mean, i know about that rich man that did everything good but didn't want to fallow Jesus because of his riches, but if you did everything right, why? My friend said that if that happened, he would be really happy, and if God let him in heaven anyways he would think of God as a real awesome loving God. but if you didn't believe, he would actually send you to hell right? why? (i know the basic concept of it, its just that i don't know how to explain it)
God doesn't send people to Hell if they obey their conscience. If someone rejects the Law of God or the Gospel, then they reject God for the Law is written in the hearts of men in the form of conscience and the gospel is the fulfilment or promise of the Law. But a person who has obeyed their conscience that God gave them, would neither reject the gospel or Law, for if they did, they wouldn't be the good person that you describe.
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.Notice that those who have never heard the gospel are not mentioned in Mark 16:16. Although commonly taught, to say that God condemns all who have not heard the gospel is to add one's own interpretation to scripture.
Also you may be interested in this writing:
Is it hard for a rich person to go to heaven? Do they go to hell?
Hello :
What would a man give in exchange for his soul?
Obedience is better than sacifice. …….a tib thought on this.and Jesus Obediance wasnt sacrifice??? What about the disciples??? What about all those who believed, and were thrown out of their homes and put in prision. Is that not sacrifice???
I suggest we study more in depth, the sacrifice- that we are to pay to be in obediance. Anyone who wishes to live a GoDly life in Christ Jesus will suffer. Be on your guard, the days are evil.
1 Samuel 15:22
But Samuel replied:
“Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD ?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.Hebrews 5:8
Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.“And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.” – Mark 12:30 (KJV)
I find it hard to love someone who you don't know or believe in.
It's kinda late now, so I'll have to look into this later.
t8 brought an interesting point, though. Scripture does not specifically say that ones who have not heard the gospel are condemed. However, it doesn't say they are saved or forgiven.
So I'll be trying to wash out the “presumptions” out of my brain before I look at scripture in order to find the truth.
Yes, good T8.
The sacrifice – Is burnt sacrifice – and grain offerings- Which is what Jesus is Now, Jesus prefers those who obey GoD.
The sacrifice of your self and your own desires Is what we must Do to be Obediant to GoD, which GoD desires more than Just a belief in Jesus.
Mr BoB, It does say specifically that Everyone will be Judged according to what they do, And not by another mans work.
IE, people that think that They have jesus' works and will recieve Jesus reward. Such people have been fooled.
Jesus says you can overcome the world just as he overcame the world. Then jesus will give you a crown of life.
Seccondly- apart of these works Jesus says plainly what these generic works that will gain favor with him are- “Parable of the sheep and the goats” All those who fed – clothed gave shelter- visited others in hospital, Who Jesus considered His brothers. Jesus Gives those who had mercy on his brothers eternal life- We do not know exactly who jesus accepts as his brothers- we cannot see the heart. But if we obey the commands- love your neighbour as yourself- you dont need to know- Because we are to love even our enemies, and do good to them.
Yes I believe that God is more merciful than we think. Many Christians believe that only Christians are saved as they are the only one's who have heard the gospel.
I think that this is incorrect.
Yes the gospel is the final message in that it saves those who accept and live it and those who reject it reject God. But for those who have never properly heard the gospel, they cannot not be judged for rejecting the gospel either. Instead these people are judged by God's Law, which is the standard and all men know God's Law whether it be from reading or hearing the Law or our conscience.
So looking at conscience alone, we cannot really tell who is saved or not, but God knows those who serve him in this way. God is the author of our conscience and it is the knowledge of right and wrong. But because men are weak and not perfect, God spelled the Law out for us through the Mosaic Law, the 10 commandments in particular.
But all men have failed God's Law to different degrees and the Law showed us that we are sinners. The Gospel is the good news about Jesus paying the price for all people, for all time, so when we obey the Gospel and live it, we can be sure of our salvation now. Through the Gospel, God has put it down in black and white. This is so clear that we can be assured of our salvation. Acceptance is acceptance of God and rejection is rejection of God.
If we obey our conscience with no knowledge of the Gospel, one cannot ever be sure of their salvation and it is through hope and doing what is right, that God may have mercy on such a person. We must remember that God's Spirit is doing work in all who inhabit this planet.
John 16:8
When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:Before Jesus death and the arrival of God's Spirit to the earth to convict all men, we had only the knowledge of Law and every man of course had/has a conscience. Back then it was hard to tell who had faith and who didn't. On one hand there were those who obeyed or knew the Law of God and then we had those Gentiles who had little or no knowledge of God's Law.
So it could be easy to conclude that only those who knew God's Law could saved as the Law spoke of the promise to come, (Christ Jesus) and the Gentiles were condemned for lack of knowledge. Yet we can see from scripture that this wasn't always case.
Luke 7:6-9
6 Now Jesus started on His way with them; and when He was not far from the house, the centurion sent friends, saying to Him, “Lord, do not trouble Yourself further, for I am not worthy for You to come under my roof;
7 for this reason I did not even consider myself worthy to come to You, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
8 “For I also am a man placed under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it.”
9 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled at him, and turned and said to the crowd that was following Him, “I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such great faith.”Matthew 5:20
“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.So here we have 2 examples that show that a Gentile could have faith and a teacher of the Law could be condemned.
So what is the difference here. Well it is all about those who obey the spirit of the Law. We were required to obey the letter of the Law and if we failed once, then we would be below God's perfection and found wanting. But Jesus paid the price for all men, so that this Law is now fulfilled to us through our wonderful mediator Christ Jesus, to all men. But today and before the days of preaching the Gospel, God expected all of us to obey the spirit of the Law which our conscience bears witness of.
Matthew 23:23
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices–mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law–justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.So the spirit of the Law, which is love, mercy, justice and grace is what God is looking for in us. Trying to fulfil the letter of the Law without these attributes will not get you into heaven. And today we have a much greater covenenant which the men of old desired to see.
So those who live in agreement with the Gospel are the children of God and those who have never heard the gospel, but obey the spirit of the Law through their conscience are also children of Abraham and hence children of God. But such people would accept the gospel if they heard it, for the Gospel is confirmed within their conscience. Such a person would also be set free as the truth sets them free and they would be able to do great works for God as they would be assured of their salvation and this would result in greater faith.
But if we who live by the Gospel's message have a condemned conscience, then God is also stronger than our conscience and he is faithful to forgive us our mistakes and sins, if we repent.
So is the Gospel message better than conscience. No it is not. With conscience men can know God, but without good conscience, a mans faith is wrecked. But a good conscience and the knowledge of the gospel is all one needs to overcome this world and the evil one, whilst remembering that faith without works is dead.
1 Timothy 1:19
holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.James 2:17
In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.Here are a few 'conscience' scriptures.
Acts 24:16
So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.Romans 9:1
I speak the truth in Christ–I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit.2 Corinthians 1:12
Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, in the holiness and sincerity that are from God. We have done so not according to worldly wisdom but according to God's grace.2 Timothy 1:3
I thank God, whom I serve, as my forefathers did, with a clear conscience, as night and day I constantly remember you in my prayers.And finally:
Hebrews 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.So who is it who obeys Christ. Those who have faith in God, a clear conscience and live and believe the Gospel message. Remember that faith is what pleases God and all that is not of faith is sin and faith without works is dead, so 'good' works are always accompanied with true faith. Faith and works go hand in hand.
The teaching that says, christians go to heaven and non-christians go to hell is incorrect, rather God will divide the sheep from the goats based on their faith accompanied with 'good' works or lack of it.
Amen t8, Its for stuff like this Is why I say your my bro ^_^
Overall A kikass summary of the way it is ^_^
There is this point that Id like to emphasise about the pharasees and Law.
Jesus said that his way summed up and fullfilled the Law of the prophets.
He said that the pharasees were hypocrites, They taught the Law according to the seat of moses, but also taught rules made by men, forsaking the law they were to keep.
My point is, Jesus Also taught the same Law using the same references, Its just that he wasnt a hypocrite.
And used the Law to the fullness of its potential for mercy, and not exploited like the pharasees did.Matthew 25
31″When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34″Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37″Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40″The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41″Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44″They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45″He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46″Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”You see, Jesus is not as weak as what Mainstram christianity Teaches!!!! GoD made Jesus LORD, He is not limited by the traditions of the churches that came after him- Those who tried to controll the people by telling them lies, that they must live by the churches insane laws to be excepted into heaven.
He Lays clearly that he and only he has been given the authority to Judge all people, Now He hands some of that authority to his Disciples, to Judge the twelve tribes of israel, and Jesus listens to those who are poor and grants they're requests to repay those who helped them. But also Jesus takes it personally to the point that he accredits what anyone does, either GooD or BaD actions to those he calls his brothers and sisters(Jesus makes it clear that women are apart of this too).
Jesus calls to Saul(Paul) Why are you persecuting me!!! This is for another validation that Jesus takes actions against those who believe, that is, his brothers and sisters, as a personal attack against himself, or a a personal blessing. Reminds me of a cool line in brave-heart, “An assault on the kings solders!! is an assault on the King himself!!!”
And finally to specifically answer the happy man.
Matthew 25
33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.41″Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
Nowhere in the parable Does Jesus Mention faith or belief!!! But action!!! action!!! action!!!
Wow , in one accord we are, eternal fire for the goats. Amen , Halaleuah, Praise be to God . The Word hasn't changed , it is the same yesterday , today , and forever more.
………….TY
T8 , outstanding as always , food for the soul. …..Thanks Brethern, I needed to read this today. ……God BlessHi happyman,
We know this sheep and goat judgement [matt 25.31f]-of salvation or condemnation-does not apply to the Body of Christ. That is because this is a judgement of works and we are not saved by our own works but are reborn into Jesus and covered with His robe of righteousness.There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. We instead have been before the tribunal of Christ to be rewarded or rebuked [matt25.14f].
Ok so this judgement of all the dead involved in the second resurrection is the last chance for those who have not met God's usual demands to receive salvation and so all the nations are gathered before the King. This is the same judgement of works as recorded in Revelation.
Rev 20 12f
” the dead were judged according to their conduct as recorded in the scrolls….Each person was judged according to his conduct…”The narrow path that few choose is the safer one.
Hi,
1Tim 4.2 says that there are people with “seared” consciences.So obedience to conscience is no a guarantee of salvation.The way in which conscience leads to salvation is spoken of in Romans as only when GOOD ACTIONS prove that the conscience is in line with the Law.When you look at the sheep and goat judgement in Mt25 it strikes me that there is likely to be a lot more sheep than you might expect.
There are 2 groups . Unless the groups were fairly similar in size it is going to get very crowded on one side of the throne! Given that the sheep were quite astounded at God's mercy towards them -they were unaware when they had helped Jesus in christians[When did we see you?]-it seems that this mercy is very wide and that salvation is immediately effective for them when the kindness occurs as they are already dressed as sheep?
Who knows?Yes I think that God is more merciful than we think. We are told that he is merciful, but we cannot speak for God and say that he will overlook this or that.
To be safe we need to preach the gospel and baptize all those who believe it and receive it. Anything outside of God's call for the church is God's call.
But yes, God is merciful as it is written:
Joel 2:13
Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the LORD your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity.2 Chronicles 30:9
For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him.
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