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Quote (Cindy @ May 13 2009,11:25) Jodi! I am only going to make one Post, Since I am so disgusted with your and Gen's outlook on the Spirits. To say that these Spirits are God's Spirit is an insult to God. Satan was Lucifer a very beautiful Angel. He was vain and wanted to put himself on the Throne of God. There was a fight in Heaven and God throw them out of Heaven. 1/3 of the Angels went with him, and are called demons. God cannot look on Sin and would never have unclean spirits. We too have to go through our Mediator Jesus in order to be forgiven of our sins.
IreneThe evil spirits in the Gospels of which Jesus healed people from were inflicting people with the sort of infirmities that God says HE ALONE BRINGS!!
Irene you can share your belief, but it holds no credit without scripture. There is NOT a scripture that says there exists an adversary who was the planet Venus, who was also a beautiful angel. There was no literal fight in God's heavenly abode, people don't get kicked out of God's dwelling place, they earn the right to be their through perfection through the work of God's Spirit. Exactly.. God cannot look upon sin, therefore it is not possible for there to be angels sinning in His Home so that He has to cast them out. ” For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” Your contradicting yourself! Gene and I don't believe that God can sin or look upon sin, but the bible specifically says that He puts forth evil unto people, not only that but HE ALONE is the only supernatural power who can do so. His evil is NOT the same as man, obviously!! God is righteous and He brings upon people evil cursing for reasons of instruction.
Scripture clearly shows that it is God's faithful messengers that bring evil unto man.
Deuteronomy 7:15 and Jehovah hath turned aside from thee every sickness, and none of the evil diseases of Egypt (which thou hast known) doth He put on thee, and He hath put them on all hating thee.
1Ki 9:9 and they have said, Because that they have forsaken Jehovah their God, who brought out their fathers from the land of Egypt, and they lay hold on other gods, and bow themselves to them, and serve them; therefore hath Jehovah brought in upon them all this evil.'
2Ki 21:12 therefore thus said Jehovah, God of Israel, Lo, I am bringing in evil on Jerusalem and Judah, that whoever heareth of it, tingle do his two ears.
1Ch 21:15 and God sendeth a messenger to Jerusalem to destroy it, and as he is destroying Jehovah hath seen, and is comforted concerning the evil, and saith to the messenger who is destroying, `Enough, now, cease thy hand.' And the messenger of Jehovah is standing by the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite,
2Ch 7:22 and they have said, Because that they have forsaken Jehovah, God of their fathers, who brought them out from the land of Egypt, and lay hold on other gods, and bow themselves to them, and serve them, therefore He hath brought upon them all this evil.'
Ne 13:18 Thus did not your fathers do? and our God bringeth in on us all this evil, and on this city, and ye are adding fierceness on Israel, to pollute the sabbath.'
Job 42:11And come unto him do all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all his former acquaintances, and they eat bread with him in his house, and bemoan him, and comfort him concerning all the evil that Jehovah had brought upon him, and they gave to him each one kesitah, and each one ring of gold.
Jud 9:56 and God turneth back the evil of Abimelech which he did to his father to slay his seventy brethren; 57 and all the evil of the men of Shechem hath God turned back on their head, and come unto them doth the cursing of Jotham son of Jerubbaal.
Psalms 70:49 He sendeth on them the fury of His anger, Wrath, and indignation, and distress — A discharge of evil messengers.
Isaiah 13:11 And I have appointed on the world evil, And on the wicked their iniquity, And have caused to cease the excellency of the proud, And the excellency of the terrible I make low.
Jer 19:3 and hast said, Hear a word of Jehovah, ye kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Thus said Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel: `Lo, I am bringing in evil on this place, at which the ears of every one who is hearing it do tingle,
Jer 19:15 Thus said Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel: Lo, I am bringing in unto this city, and on all its cities, all the evil that I have spoken against it, for they have hardened their neck — not to hear My words!'
Jer 26:13 And now, amend your ways, and your doings, and hearken to the voice of Jehovah your God, and Jehovah doth repent concerning the evil that He hath spoken against you.
Jer 44:2 `Thus said Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel: Ye — ye have seen all the evil that I have brought in on Jerusalem, and on all the cities of Judah, and lo, they [are] a waste this day, and there is none dwelling in them,
Jer 44:7 `And, now, thus said Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel: Why are ye doing great evil unto your own souls, to cut off to you man and woman, infant and suckling, from the midst of Judah, so as not to leave to you a remnant:
Jer 44:11`Therefore, thus said Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel: Lo, I am setting my face against you for evil, even to cut off all Judah,
Da 9:13 as it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil hath come upon us, and we have not appeased the face of Jehovah our God to turn back from our iniquities, and to act wisely in Thy truth.
Da 9:14 And Jehovah doth watch for the evil, and bringeth it upon us, for righteous [is] Jehovah our God concerning all His works that He hath done, and we have not hearkened to His voice.
Jon 3:10 And God seeth their works, that they have turned back from their evil way, and God repenteth of the evil that He spake of doing to them, and he hath not done [it].
The adversary in the book of Job it should be clear was certainly one of God's evil messengers.
God's angels walk to and fro on the earth, ready to punish and curse mankind.
2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him. In this you have done foolishly; therefore from now on you shall have wars.”
Job 1:7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.“
Zechariah 1:7 On the twenty-fourth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Shebat, in the second year of Darius, the word of the Lord came to Zechariah the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet: 8 I saw by night, and behold, a man riding on a red horse, and it stood among the myrtle trees in the hollow; and behind him were horses: red, sorrel, and white. 9 Then I said, “My lord, what are these?” So the angel who talked with me said to me, “I will show you what they are.” 10 And the man who stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, “These are the ones whom the Lord has sent to walk to and fro throughout the earth.”
Zech 4:10 For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice to see The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the Lord, Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth.”
Zech 6:2 With the first chariot were red horses, with the second chariot bl
ack horses, 3 with the third chariot white horses, and with the fourth chariot dappled horses–strong steeds. 4 Then I answered and said to the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?” 5 And the angel answered and said to me, “These are four spirits of heaven, who go out from their station before the Lord of all the earth. 6 The one with the black horses is going to the north country, the white are going after them, and the dappled are going toward the south country.” 7 Then the strong steeds went out, eager to go, that they might walk to and fro throughout the earth. And He said, “Go, walk to and fro throughout the earth.” So they walked to and fro throughout the earth. 8 And He called to me, and spoke to me, saying, “See, those who go toward the north country have given rest to My Spirit in the north country.”1Ch 21:7 This command was also evil in the sight of God; so he punished Israel. 8 Then David said to God, “I have sinned greatly by doing this. Now, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.” 9 The Lord said to Gad, David's seer, 10 “Go and tell David, 'This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.'” 11 So Gad went to David and said to him, “This is what the Lord says: 'Take your choice:12 three years of famine, three months of being swept away before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the Lord–days of plague in the land, with the angel of the Lord ravaging every part of Israel.' Now then, decide how I should answer the one who sent me.”
1 Ch 21:14 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead. 15 And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But as the angel was doing so, the Lord saw it and was grieved because of the calamity and said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then standing at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite. 16 David looked up and saw the angel of the Lord standing between heaven and earth, with a drawn sword in his hand extended over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell facedown. 17 David said to God, “Was it not I who ordered the fighting men to be counted? I am the one who has sinned and done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? O Lord my God, let your hand fall upon me and my family, but do not let this plague remain on your people.”
21:26 David built an altar to the Lord there and sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings. He called on the Lord, and the Lord answered him with fire from heaven on the altar of burnt offering. 27 Then the Lord spoke to the angel, and he put his sword back into its sheath.
1Ch 21:30 But David could not go before it to inquire of God, because he was afraid of the sword of the angel of the Lord.
The angels of the Lord were feared by the Israelites and they were called directly by the Israelites adversaries…phonetic Hebrew SAW-TAWN, they were feared because they brought upon the people all forms of evil from MADNESS, BLINDNESS, DUMBNESS, DEAFNESS, to famine, and all other sorts of sicknesses and diseases. God as well, scripture directly tells us that, He sets forth the motion for WAR. He causes enemies to come forth to Israel and Judah. As Acts 17 says, God controls the nations and their boundaries.
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2009,12:32) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 13 2009,05:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2009,13:52) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 12 2009,08:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2009,07:32) Quote (Gene @ May 12 2009,02:50) Jodi……….you have it right sis, There is no evil demons going around jumping in and out of people, These doctrines of Demons are products of the apostatized Churches. And if recieved into ones thinking they cause phobias of all kinds these are the plagues people get who buy into these false teachings. Man is the problem and is the adversary of GOD, he is the SATAN, not some unseen being going around jumping in and out of people. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
So when Jesus cast out an unclean Spirit are you saying that God put the unclean spirit in there? That could not be because the point that Jesus was making about beelzebub casting out evil spirits causing his kingdom to fall would apply likewise if Jesus was casting out demons that God put in them on purpose.
Hello, bodhitharta,Matthew 12:24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.” 25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out?
It does seem a little confusing doesn't it, but please give this some thought,
The Old Testament particularly Deuteronomy, like in chapter 28, the scriptures tell us that God makes people mad, blind, deaf, and dumb as a form of punishment. God as well, as an additional punishment to the people, tells them that these diseases inflicting them will also be passed down through their families generations.
bodhitharta, when Jesus is healing people from sicknesses and diseases he is healing people from what was God's inflictions. God is not to be compared to the false god beelzebub. God inflicts and heals people as He sees fit under a righteous purpose, so what Jesus was saying to the Pharisees would not apply to His Father.
We see in the Old Testament, actually I gave an example of this early today from Chronicles, that God would curse the Israelites and then He would have mercy on them taking away the plagues.
When God curses and then heals does that mean He is divided against Himself? No of course it doesn't He is Righteous God, and that which He does has a righteous purpose.
Jesus knew the Pharisees thoughts it says. The Pharisees believed strictly that beelzebub was an evil supernatural force, so with that belief of which Jesus knew, makes it understandable why he would tell them how he could not be beelzebub. Forces of evil are forces of evil, they wouldn't heal otherwise they would be divided against itself.
I hope that makes sense.
With the Israelites God says if they change their ways and repent He would heal them but what we have in the cases in the new testaments are people who have not changed anything, they are “under the control of these spirits” and they are cast out. Even Jesus says that some will not be cast out except with much prayer and fasting”Why is it hard for you to believe that spirits of any type can go rogue? Satan did.
Actually I use to believe in fallen angels up until a few years ago…then when I started studying the bible thoroughly for myself, I changed my mind.And whom do you believe Satan is?
The bible gives several adversaries, not one is said to be rebel supernatural spirits.
We have God and His messengers said to be satans unto man.
We have man said to be satans to God and man being satans to other men, and we have man's carnal nature with it's passions and desires said to be a satan.
So do you think it was not an actual spirit in the wilderness that tempted Jesus?
Hello Bodhithart,Define spirit? Gene, and I as well, have asked several times for people to study what the word spirit represents in the bible.
I don't know what program you use, I use crosswalk.com, but you should do a word search on spirit…NKJ renders the word 512 times and YLT renders it 571 times.
I love to study the bible by key word searches!!
I believe that once Jesus reached severe hunger to the point of delusion that his carnal nature, the devil, challenged his mind and his faithfulness to God. In the end we know that the wisdom and truth of God in Jesus prevailed against his carnal nature.
Hi Jodi,
So our Master was deluded?
Was this only temporary or not?Should we rely on you to tell us who is deluded?
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2009,13:31) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2009,13:08) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 13 2009,07:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2009,13:57) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 12 2009,09:21) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2009,08:07) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 12 2009,07:37) Hi Nick, and how would you define the god of this world exactly?
Philippians 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame–who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
How would you define what's meant by, “whose god is their belly”?
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
I see a two party here NOT a three, it's just man and his mind and God and His. Notice the spirit of the world is the spirit of man. The nature of man is foolish and spiritually discerned. Notice it is man's wisdom that is in error, not some invisible influencing rebel spirit's wisdom.
Acts 19:14-16 (King James Version)14And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
Romans 16:18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.Man is said to serve his fleshly desires,
Romans 13:11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
Ro 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
If man is not controlled by the Spirit he is controlled by the desires of his flesh, thus making him a slave to his flesh, thus his flesh rules over him and is his god.
Philippians 3:18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.
Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Those who set their minds on earthly things are thus being CARNALLY minded, their god is their belly and their end is destruction because to be carnally minded is death.
Ro 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Mt 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
Jesus shows the other master besides God to be man's own fleshly desires….such as selfishness and greed.
Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, F20 drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
All throughout the bible we see the idea of TWO masters, One being God and the other being our fleshly desires.
As far as Acts is concerned, knowing what people are capable of doing while their minds are inflicted with an evil spirit or mental disorder, the scripture makes complete sense to me. The person inflicted is not consciously aware of his behavior the disease has taken over his brain and has made him mad. This is entirely different fr
om people who SERVE, as if it were a god, their sinful fleshly desires and intentionally hurt and oppress other people in the process.
Keep in mind that I do not totally disagree with what you are saying but it is not totally correct. Satan tempts Jesus it is understood that Jesus is resisting his fleshly desires and in doing so is resisting Satan.Eve did not resist her fleshly desires and in turn did not resist Satan.
Please tell me out of your own heart and with The Holy Spirit guiding you what is the main point you are making here?
Well my main point would be, that from knowing the disingenuous creation of the word Satan by the translators, not rendering it properly as merely adversary, we can see quite clearly from the bible that man's only adversary when it comes to being drawn to sin, has everything to do with man himself. Our own carnal nature, and the carnal nature of others is why evil exists!Mt 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!
Lu 22:3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.
Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
The adversary that entered into Judas was a spirit of greed, just one of many of man's fleshly desires.
I know I keep repeating some of the same points, but once again I would like to bring up WHY Jesus called Peter an adversary? It was not because he was following some invisible supernatural being, it was said because Peter had in mind the things of men. Men are carnally minded unless they overcome that nature through God's Spirit. Again, another point I have already made, about the devil in Revelation 1, it is talking about a King going to put Christians in prison. Why is the King called a devil? Not because he is following after some invisible supernatural being but because he is following his own desires.
The scriptures say we are born children of wrath, and it's because we are born with a carnal nature. When someone is acting in a way where they are giving into their carnal nature they are being and adversary unto themselves and they become an adversary to others.
Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt F7 the Lord thy God. 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
I find it very interesting that it starts off telling us that Jesus is going to be tempted, then we are told that he is starved and THEN we see the temptation come. What came to Jesus, was it some supernatural being? I think the answer is quite clear, having not eaten for forty days the temptation that came was the desires of his carnal nature. Jesus had all of God's powers and his carnal nature wanted him to use those powers for himself, but Jesus denied that nature and served God.
Thus why it is written,
Heb 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
Jas 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Heb 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Ro 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
The carnal mind is death
Live according to the flesh you will die
Carnal mind is enmity
Desire brings sin and sin brings deathI don't see in scripture it saying that invisible supernatural beings bring death, or that to live according to a supernatural evil spirit brings forth death.
So when I see, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, I believe it is of scriptural truth to say that the devil must represent carnal nature.
Why would carnal nature be called devil, and not just carnal nature? Devil means slanderer, it does not mean a supernatural spirit, but….a false accuser or liar. Our carnal nature is exactly that, it is a liar because it feeds our mind that we need to serve it in order to live and be fulfilled. On the contrary we need God and His Spirit in order to have life and fulfillment.
Carnal nature is correctly called devil and adversary…for that describes it to a tee. When a king is called a devil we know exactly what he is being referred to, a man following his carnal nature.
When Christ returns carnal nature will be locked away because only people who are spiritually minded will dwell on earth. When the second resurrection comes those are the people who have yet to become spiritually minded, they are still carnal, and thus the devil has been released. God says it is only for a little while because He will eventually become ALL in ALL, burning away carnal nature in the Lake of fire!!
Hi Jodi,This is what the Quran says about Satan I only bring this up because there is a
n Islam thread up and I was making the point that the Quran is a clarification of the scriptures:9) Behold! We said to the angels, “Bow down to Adam”: They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!
( سورة الكهف , Al-Kahf, Chapter #18, Verse #50)Here it shows that Satan had another name prior to being a Satan but he became Satan when he broke the command of God. Instead of being an Angel it is clarified that he was of a creation called “jinns”
(42) “Did I not enjoin on you, O ye Children of Adam, that ye should not worship Satan; for that he was to you an enemy avowed?-
( سورة يس , Ya Seen, Chapter #36, Verse #60)(19) Those who fear Allah, when a thought of evil from Satan assaults them, bring Allah to remembrance, when lo! they see (aright)!
( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #201)27) When thou dost read the Qur'an, seek Allah.s protection from Satan the rejected one.
( سورة النحل , An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #98)(34) Never did We send an apostle or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:
( سورة الحج , Al-Hajj, Chapter #22, Verse #52)(6) Many are the jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).
( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #179)This points out that there are beings that are called Jinns that are not always evil but they can mislead or oppress humans.
However, what I find most interesting Jodi is that even in Islam your point of view is mirrored exactly how you believe, look:
Below is an excerpt from http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8469.0
The post title is WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN…HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN
The Jinn are defined in various lexicons as hidden spirits, creatures of fire, satans and the such, however, they are also defined as powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah. Now, all of these defintions can be found in the lexicons, however, in the context of Al-Qur'an, which of them squares, jibes with, appropriately juxtaposes with, makes sense, within the context of how Allah is using JINN in Al-Qur'an? Now, I consider the definition of “powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codified law from Allah”, to be the proper use of JINN, hence, for me, that is “remaining inside of Al-Qur'an/keeping with the context of Al-Qur'an”.
Jodi,I just wanted to make clear that there are some in Islam that feel the same way as you do but I find myself agreeing with both those who say there are actual spirits doing things and people doing these things.
It doesn't have to be “either or” It can be both because if a spirit of any type can make a suggestion to someone in the flesh that person in the flesh can act upon it.
Your position is that ultimately all good and evil are under God's control. However being under the absolute control does not mean that God need do anything, as if it is a mans desire to follow evil and man is allowed to be evil then the thing tempting him is evil and yet God tempts no man.
This is the Point God is Good and Satan is the avowed enemy not of God but of Man. Satan is allowed to tempt Man and Man is allowed to resist Satan.
The Quran shows that the advesary is against man.
See I don't find any evidence of spirits that make suggestions to a person and then those people can choose to follow those suggestions or not.Just what sort of suggestions are we talking about here?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2009,17:57) Hi Jodi,
So our Master was deluded?
Was this only temporary or not?Should we rely on you to tell us who is deluded?
Nick, have you ever fasted before? Like say for a 24 hour period? How did you feel? How was your mental state?Jesus was a human being just like us, you honestly think that after 40 DAYS without food his MIND WAS AT THE TOP OF HIS GAME?
The body and the MIND of Jesus were weakened because of starvation, thus they were more influential to deceive him and lead him astray. The carnal nature of man does indeed deceive man and lead him astray…it speaks and says serve me and you shall live and be fulfilled. But the truth is that to be carnally minded is death, to be Spiritually minded is life and peace.
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote Do you realize that the brain can hold in it's subconscious the belief of demons, and when a person is suffering from a mental disorder that disease can feed off that belief, thus resulting in the diseased man talking and acting in a manner as to what the subconscious believes is a demon and refer to itself as a demon?
How do you know that it is not a demon speaking? The only reason you believe that is that a person who is referred to as an expert of the working of the human mind tells you that. That person is a priest of the god of science.
Would you choose to believe what a priest of Odin tells you as they too can claim to be an expert?
The question I ask you is did Jesus believe he was speaking to a demon or in the case I mentioned demons?
Look at what Jesus did. He cured the man of his insanity and caused the pigs to become insane with the same self-destructive urges the man had previously exhibited. He did this because the demons asked him to instead of punishing them. Of course being demons they played tit for tat and killed the pigs thus getting Jesus in trouble with the local population.
Here is another account of a demon acting though it may not be demon possession.
1 Kings 22:19-23(NIV) reads:
Quote And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
As you can see it is certainly not an obvious case of insanity though the false prophets certainly did give into the demon’s temptation. It may be possession if these prophets had become so used to lying in their prophecy that it was second hand to them. Still when they lied they were speaking the words the demon gave them to speak.
Do you believe in being reborn in spirit? I ask because it is similar to demon possession.
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote There is still so much about the human brain and it's capabilities that man does not know about. In the past few years man has learned more about the human brain then it has in all of history!!
You may be surprised if your studied the right subjects in history though we may have more toys to manipulate the brain with. Still the Jews were fairly knowledgeable. The Aztecs are even known to have done brain surgery with stone tools. I want to point out that Paul writes of a struggle under the law that could well be a struggle between the conscious and unconscious mind. He also speaks of the divided mind and spirit.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2009,17:39) Hi Jodi,
You believe in angels?
Why?
Because I really like the song, Angels Among Us by Alabama!!
Quote (kerwin @ May 13 2009,18:26) Jodi Lee wrote: Quote Do you realize that the brain can hold in it's subconscious the belief of demons, and when a person is suffering from a mental disorder that disease can feed off that belief, thus resulting in the diseased man talking and acting in a manner as to what the subconscious believes is a demon and refer to itself as a demon?
How do you know that it is not a demon speaking? The only reason you believe that is that a person who is referred to as an expert of the working of the human mind tells you that. That person is a priest of the god of science.
Would you choose to believe what a priest of Odin tells you as they too can claim to be an expert?
The question I ask you is did Jesus believe he was speaking to a demon or in the case I mentioned demons?
Look at what Jesus did. He cured the man of his insanity and caused the pigs to become insane with the same self-destructive urges the man had previously exhibited. He did this because the demons asked him to instead of punishing them. Of course being demons they played tit for tat and killed the pigs thus getting Jesus in trouble with the local population.
Here is another account of a demon acting though it may not be demon possession.
1 Kings 22:19-23(NIV) reads:
Quote And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
As you can see it is certainly not an obvious case of insanity though the false prophets certainly did give into the demon’s temptation. It may be possession if these prophets had become so used to lying in their prophecy that it was second hand to them. Still when they lied they were speaking the words the demon gave them to speak.
Do you believe in being reborn in spirit? I ask because it is similar to demon possession.
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote There is still so much about the human brain and it's capabilities that man does not know about. In the past few years man has learned more about the human brain then it has in all of history!!
You may be surprised if your studied the right subjects in history though we may have more toys to manipulate the brain with. Still the Jews were fairly knowledgeable. The Aztecs are even known to have done brain surgery with stone tools. I want to point out that Paul writes of a struggle under the law that could well be a struggle between the conscious and unconscious mind. He also speaks of the divided mind and spirit.
Hi Kerwin,It is indeed a demon speaking, it is indeed an evil spirit speaking I just happen to identify these spirits differently then you do.
I don't go by what anyone tells me, are you unfamiliar with how medical science works? Are you unfamiliar with how medicine works? You must be one of those people who refuses medical care. You probably believe that doctors are disciples of fallen angels.
The fact that the demons went into the pigs and caused the pigs to go nuts to jump off the cliff tells me precisely that what was in the man was nothing but a mere disease.
I mentioned this before, if these demons are intelligent free will agents why wouldn't they just leave the body on their own…why would they wait for Jesus and give him the satisfaction of them having to obey him?
I am confused by your example of 1 Kings 22, the lying spirits are spirits following God's command. God it says PUT FORTH the lying spirit. There is NO reference here to rebel spirits. Just spirits OBEYING GOD!!
Kerwin, I would just like to thank you for the manner in which you approach to converse here. We may understand the same scriptures differently but I REALLY appreciate the fact that you take what I say and then give your own take with use of scripture.
Blessings and Peace to you, now I better head off to bed, Jodi
One last thing….I firmly believe that science holds as many lies and deceptions as Christian doctrine does! Man everywhere is full of distortion and lies.
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote I don't go by what anyone tells me, are you unfamiliar with how medical science works?
Are you? Did you realize that science only deals with the unspiritual world? They do not even consider there may be outside forces at work. In other words the assumption of most so called scientist is that religion should be completely separate from science. I find that to be an absurd idea and favor the integration approach.
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote Are you unfamiliar with how medicine works? You must be one of those people who refuses medical care
I am a kidney disease patient as a result of a hereditary curse, which is in the family for a reason I do not know. I am currently on dialysis. I am somewhat aware how medicine works, or does not work, at least to the extent I that I use it. It is an attempt by man to counteract the effects a demon causes on the body that is doomed to failure unless God wills otherwise.
Do you understand the conflict between the powers of evil and the powers of good that go on in this world? God created our bodies to be perfect but Satan and his host came along and altered them in many ways such as causing malevolent changes in the genetics as for example my kidney disease. He also caused changes (mutations) that scientists like to say are the result of random variables and natural selection in other life forms that makes them harmful to human beings. Sometimes the devil will use what is meant for good such as e-coli for evil. God uses Satan’s action for his good and righteous purposes. Researchers do not even look for this battle and so do not see it because they choose to be blind. The question is do you choose to be as blind as they are?
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote I am confused by your example of 1 Kings 22, the lying spirits are spirits following God's command. God it says PUT FORTH the lying spirit. There is NO reference here to rebel spirits. Just spirits OBEYING GOD!!
God does not tempt anyone to do evil and so the spirit is by its very nature in rebellion against him because it is an evil spirit being one of false prophecy. The demons serve God even while they rebel against him as they cannot do anything without his permission. If you read the book of Job you will find that Satan could not act against Job until God gave him permission to do so. Satan motives for acting against Job were evil while God allowed Satan to act because he that is was good to do so. Did you read the scripture where Jesus taught his students not to worry as not even a sparrow can fall from the sky but by the will of God?
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote Kerwin, I would just like to thank you for the manner in which you approach to converse here. We may understand the same scriptures differently but I REALLY appreciate the fact that you take what I say and then give your own take with use of scripture.
Thank you. It is only by the grace of God that I am patient and considerate in whatever ways I am.
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote One last thing….I firmly believe that science holds as many lies and deceptions as Christian doctrine does! Man everywhere is full of distortion and lies.
Lies do abound which is consistent with God speaking through scripture as he tells us that men without God have venom on their lips. May God grant you a good night’s sleep!
Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 13 2009,18:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2009,17:57) Hi Jodi,
So our Master was deluded?
Was this only temporary or not?Should we rely on you to tell us who is deluded?
Nick, have you ever fasted before? Like say for a 24 hour period? How did you feel? How was your mental state?Jesus was a human being just like us, you honestly think that after 40 DAYS without food his MIND WAS AT THE TOP OF HIS GAME?
The body and the MIND of Jesus were weakened because of starvation, thus they were more influential to deceive him and lead him astray. The carnal nature of man does indeed deceive man and lead him astray…it speaks and says serve me and you shall live and be fulfilled. But the truth is that to be carnally minded is death, to be Spiritually minded is life and peace.
Hi Jodi,
We do not make assumptions about his mental state from a scientific viewpoint.Scripture is greater and truer than weak human measures.
Hi Jodi,
I am surprised you are not devoted to disproving the existence of angels as well as they are hard to see and science does not acknowledge their existence. Why pick and choose? What about God?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2009,17:12) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 13 2009,18:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2009,17:57) Hi Jodi,
So our Master was deluded?
Was this only temporary or not?Should we rely on you to tell us who is deluded?
Nick, have you ever fasted before? Like say for a 24 hour period? How did you feel? How was your mental state?Jesus was a human being just like us, you honestly think that after 40 DAYS without food his MIND WAS AT THE TOP OF HIS GAME?
The body and the MIND of Jesus were weakened because of starvation, thus they were more influential to deceive him and lead him astray. The carnal nature of man does indeed deceive man and lead him astray…it speaks and says serve me and you shall live and be fulfilled. But the truth is that to be carnally minded is death, to be Spiritually minded is life and peace.
Hi Jodi,
We do not make assumptions about his mental state from a scientific viewpoint.Scripture is greater and truer than weak human measures.
I believe one reason for fasting is to get visions. That is what the Americans do and the follow a corrupted version of the true faith. God does speak to us in dreams and vision but it is up to us to correctly interpret them. Still even if Jesus was having visions in the desert that does not prove that Satan does not exist. And to say he was is at best speculation.Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 13 2009,17:30) Quote (Cindy @ May 13 2009,11:25) Jodi! I am only going to make one Post, Since I am so disgusted with your and Gen's outlook on the Spirits. To say that these Spirits are God's Spirit is an insult to God. Satan was Lucifer a very beautiful Angel. He was vain and wanted to put himself on the Throne of God. There was a fight in Heaven and God throw them out of Heaven. 1/3 of the Angels went with him, and are called demons. God cannot look on Sin and would never have unclean spirits. We too have to go through our Mediator Jesus in order to be forgiven of our sins.
IreneThe evil spirits in the Gospels of which Jesus healed people from were inflicting people with the sort of infirmities that God says HE ALONE BRINGS!!
Irene you can share your belief, but it holds no credit without scripture. There is NOT a scripture that says there exists an adversary who was the planet Venus, who was also a beautiful angel. There was no literal fight in God's heavenly abode, people don't get kicked out of God's dwelling place, they earn the right to be their through perfection through the work of God's Spirit. Exactly.. God cannot look upon sin, therefore it is not possible for there to be angels sinning in His Home so that He has to cast them out. ” For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” Your contradicting yourself! Gene and I don't believe that God can sin or look upon sin, but the bible specifically says that He puts forth evil unto people, not only that but HE ALONE is the only supernatural power who can do so. His evil is NOT the same as man, obviously!! God is righteous and He brings upon people evil cursing for reasons of instruction.
Scripture clearly shows that it is God's faithful messengers that bring evil unto man.
Deuteronomy 7:15 and Jehovah hath turned aside from thee every sickness, and none of the evil diseases of Egypt (which thou hast known) doth He put on thee, and He hath put them on all hating thee.
1Ki 9:9 and they have said, Because that they have forsaken Jehovah their God, who brought out their fathers from the land of Egypt, and they lay hold on other gods, and bow themselves to them, and serve them; therefore hath Jehovah brought in upon them all this evil.'
2Ki 21:12 therefore thus said Jehovah, God of Israel, Lo, I am bringing in evil on Jerusalem and Judah, that whoever heareth of it, tingle do his two ears.
1Ch 21:15 and God sendeth a messenger to Jerusalem to destroy it, and as he is destroying Jehovah hath seen, and is comforted concerning the evil, and saith to the messenger who is destroying, `Enough, now, cease thy hand.' And the messenger of Jehovah is standing by the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite,
2Ch 7:22 and they have said, Because that they have forsaken Jehovah, God of their fathers, who brought them out from the land of Egypt, and lay hold on other gods, and bow themselves to them, and serve them, therefore He hath brought upon them all this evil.'
Ne 13:18 Thus did not your fathers do? and our God bringeth in on us all this evil, and on this city, and ye are adding fierceness on Israel, to pollute the sabbath.'
Job 42:11And come unto him do all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all his former acquaintances, and they eat bread with him in his house, and bemoan him, and comfort him concerning all the evil that Jehovah had brought upon him, and they gave to him each one kesitah, and each one ring of gold.
Jud 9:56 and God turneth back the evil of Abimelech which he did to his father to slay his seventy brethren; 57 and all the evil of the men of Shechem hath God turned back on their head, and come unto them doth the cursing of Jotham son of Jerubbaal.
Psalms 70:49 He sendeth on them the fury of His anger, Wrath, and indignation, and distress — A discharge of evil messengers.
Isaiah 13:11 And I have appointed on the world evil, And on the wicked their iniquity, And have caused to cease the excellency of the proud, And the excellency of the terrible I make low.
Jer 19:3 and hast said, Hear a word of Jehovah, ye kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Thus said Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel: `Lo, I am bringing in evil on this place, at which the ears of every one who is hearing it do tingle,
Jer 19:15 Thus said Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel: Lo, I am bringing in unto this city, and on all its cities, all the evil that I have spoken against it, for they have hardened their neck — not to hear My words!'
Jer 26:13 And now, amend your ways, and your doings, and hearken to the voice of Jehovah your God, and Jehovah doth repent concerning the evil that He hath spoken against you.
Jer 44:2 `Thus said Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel: Ye — ye have seen all the evil that I have brought in on Jerusalem, and on all the cities of Judah, and lo, they [are] a waste this day, and there is none dwelling in them,
Jer 44:7 `And, now, thus said Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel: Why are ye doing great evil unto your own souls, to cut off to you man and woman, infant and suckling, from the midst of Judah, so as not to leave to you a remnant:
Jer 44:11`Therefore, thus said Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel: Lo, I am setting my face against you for evil, even to cut off all Judah,
Da 9:13 as it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil hath come upon us, and we have not appeased the face of Jehovah our God to turn back from our iniquities, and to act wisely in Thy truth.
Da 9:14 And Jehovah doth watch for the evil, and bringeth it upon us, for righteous [is] Jehovah our God concerning all His works that He hath done, and we have not hearkened to His voice.
Jon 3:10 And God seeth their works, that they have turned back from their evil way, and God repenteth of the evil that He spake of doing to them, and he hath not done [it].
The adversary in the book of Job it should be clear was certainly one of God's evil messengers.
God's angels walk to and fro on the earth, ready to punish and curse mankind.
2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him. In this you have done foolishly; therefore from now on you shall have wars.”
Job 1:7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.“
Zechariah 1:7 On the twenty-fourth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Shebat, in the second year of Darius, the word of the Lord came to Zechariah the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet: 8 I saw by night, and behold, a man riding on a red horse, and it stood among the myrtle trees in the hollow; and behind him were horses: red, sorrel, and white. 9 Then I said, “My lord, what are these?” So the angel who talked with me said to me, “I will show you what they are.” 10 And the man who stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, “These are the ones whom the Lord has sent to walk to and fro throughout the earth.”
Zech 4:10 For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice to see
The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the Lord, Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth.”Zech 6:2 With the first chariot were red horses, with the second chariot black horses, 3 with the third chariot white horses, and with the fourth chariot dappled horses–strong steeds. 4 Then I answered and said to the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?” 5 And the angel answered and said to me, “These are four spirits of heaven, who go out from their station before the Lord of all the earth. 6 The one with the black horses is going to the north country, the white are going after them, and the dappled are going toward the south country.” 7 Then the strong steeds went out, eager to go, that they might walk to and fro throughout the earth. And He said, “Go, walk to and fro throughout the earth.” So they walked to and fro throughout the earth. 8 And He called to me, and spoke to me, saying, “See, those who go toward the north country have given rest to My Spirit in the north country.”
1Ch 21:7 This command was also evil in the sight of God; so he punished Israel. 8 Then David said to God, “I have sinned greatly by doing this. Now, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.” 9 The Lord said to Gad, David's seer, 10 “Go and tell David, 'This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.'” 11 So Gad went to David and said to him, “This is what the Lord says: 'Take your choice:12 three years of famine, three months of being swept away before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the Lord–days of plague in the land, with the angel of the Lord ravaging every part of Israel.' Now then, decide how I should answer the one who sent me.”
1 Ch 21:14 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead. 15 And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But as the angel was doing so, the Lord saw it and was grieved because of the calamity and said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then standing at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite. 16 David looked up and saw the angel of the Lord standing between heaven and earth, with a drawn sword in his hand extended over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell facedown. 17 David said to God, “Was it not I who ordered the fighting men to be counted? I am the one who has sinned and done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? O Lord my God, let your hand fall upon me and my family, but do not let this plague remain on your people.”
21:26 David built an altar to the Lord there and sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings. He called on the Lord, and the Lord answered him with fire from heaven on the altar of burnt offering. 27 Then the Lord spoke to the angel, and he put his sword back into its sheath.
1Ch 21:30 But David could not go before it to inquire of God, because he was afraid of the sword of the angel of the Lord.
The angels of the Lord were feared by the Israelites and they were called directly by the Israelites adversaries…phonetic Hebrew SAW-TAWN, they were feared because they brought upon the people all forms of evil from MADNESS, BLINDNESS, DUMBNESS, DEAFNESS, to famine, and all other sorts of sicknesses and diseases. God as well, scripture directly tells us that, He sets forth the motion for WAR. He causes enemies to come forth to Israel and Judah. As Acts 17 says, God controls the nations and their boundaries.
Jodi! I am going to give you the Scriptures, but you will have to look them up yourself,since I have Arhrirus in my Hands today is a bad day.
Is.14:13
verse 12
Luke 10:18
Rev.12:4
Scripture does not tell us how long it took Satan to convince the Angels to come with him.
IreneQuote (Jodi Lee @ May 13 2009,05:10) DK, I would like to know honestly, what you personally have experienced or witnessed yourself. 
Me, personally…I have only experienced a couple of things…mainly because my mother refused to let me spend any significant amount of time at my grandparents home where these events took place i.e. no sleepovers and no being there alone…
1. My cousin who was visiting from out of town and I were allowed to stay the night with my grandmother one night. We were about 12. Now my grandmother would get up at the crack of dawn to cook breakfast whenever she had visitors over. So right before dawn my cousin and I were awaken by loud footsteps.
( my grandmothers house is one of those early century homes that have the floating floors i.e. the house actually is suspended off the ground..so footsteps sound like “Doom..Doom..Doom”)
Well, I tell him that I am going to get up to see if grandma needs any help. So I walk into the living room…and see no one…I check the kitchen and other rooms and see no one…finally I go to my grandmother's room and peek in….SHE WAS SOUND ASLEEP… I don't really think anything of it so I tell my cousin that grandma was sleep and that she probably just went to the bathroom….so I lay back down…
Well, about 10 minutes later…we hear the footsteps again..”Doom..Doom..Doom…Doom”…So I get up again….and again NO ONE is there…I walk over to my grandma's room and again she is SOUND ASLEEP…at this point i get scared..I go back into the room and my cousin asks if grandma was up..
He just looks at me..and I stare back…then i said I'm not getting up until she comes in hear…lol…when she finally awoke…we asked her if she had been walking around the house
earlier and she said NO…suffice it to say…I didn't spend the night there again until i was an adult…lol…2.I'ma make this one shorter because I hafta go…basically one night my grandma and aunt called some of the men up there..myself included…because they thought someone was trying to break into the house..they said they heard all types of commotion on the back porch…Now my grandmother has a back porch that had been converted into a laundry room…but we still referred to it as the “back porch”..
Anyway, my aunt said that when she went into the laundry everything was a mess..like someone had been “plundering” thru the things…At first I thought it could possibly be a small animal i.e. a cat or something..until I saw that the washing machine and dryer were moved clear across the room… well we put everything back in place and checked things out..then called it a night…
Well…30 minutes after we left we got another call to “come quick..its happening again!!!!”..We rushed up there…and what did we find? The laundry room ramshacked…AGAIN…
like i said that house is HAUNTED…There have been over 20 people who have experienced things in that house…even friends of the family…we are not crazy…EVIL SPIRITS do exist..
Even without the bible..I can easily come to that conclusion…and so have millions of other people..
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2009,22:12) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 13 2009,18:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2009,17:57) Hi Jodi,
So our Master was deluded?
Was this only temporary or not?Should we rely on you to tell us who is deluded?
Nick, have you ever fasted before? Like say for a 24 hour period? How did you feel? How was your mental state?Jesus was a human being just like us, you honestly think that after 40 DAYS without food his MIND WAS AT THE TOP OF HIS GAME?
The body and the MIND of Jesus were weakened because of starvation, thus they were more influential to deceive him and lead him astray. The carnal nature of man does indeed deceive man and lead him astray…it speaks and says serve me and you shall live and be fulfilled. But the truth is that to be carnally minded is death, to be Spiritually minded is life and peace.
Hi Jodi,
We do not make assumptions about his mental state from a scientific viewpoint.Scripture is greater and truer than weak human measures.
It's my ASSUMPTION that a person who goes without food is affected mentally by that? No its not an assumption it's a SIMPLE FACT!!What Nick, you think that the brain is separate from the body, that it does not rely on food and water to work?
Nick, Jesus CAME IN THE FLESH, he was NOT a ghost.
Luke 22:44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
The AGONY that Jesus felt was occurring in his mind.
When it says that Jesus sweat became like great drops of blood, what should I take that to mean? Was it really hot out that night? Or should I use my common knowledge from my high school health class that people can also sweat when they are under mental stress.
But Jesus according to YOU Nick is NOT how the scriptures say, to YOU he is apparently some sort of mental and physical superhero, where going without food does not tempt him, and he had no fear of death whatsoever.
When the Israelites disobeyed collecting the manna I suppose you believe it was rebel evil spirits in them whispering to them telling them they should hate God and disobey Him?
It had nothing to do with the fact they feared hunger and starvation.
Hebrews 5:6 As He also says in another place: “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek”; F24 7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
But according to you Nick, there was no suffering there was no sweat, there were no tears or crying out. Jesus apparently did not possess any emotions.
I suppose diabetes is a product of rebel spirit possession according to your understanding. I suppose low blood sugar affecting the mind is just another ONE of MY FALSE ASSUMPTIONS!!!!!!
Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 14 2009,02:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2009,22:12) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 13 2009,18:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2009,17:57) Hi Jodi,
So our Master was deluded?
Was this only temporary or not?Should we rely on you to tell us who is deluded?
Nick, have you ever fasted before? Like say for a 24 hour period? How did you feel? How was your mental state?Jesus was a human being just like us, you honestly think that after 40 DAYS without food his MIND WAS AT THE TOP OF HIS GAME?
The body and the MIND of Jesus were weakened because of starvation, thus they were more influential to deceive him and lead him astray. The carnal nature of man does indeed deceive man and lead him astray…it speaks and says serve me and you shall live and be fulfilled. But the truth is that to be carnally minded is death, to be Spiritually minded is life and peace.
Hi Jodi,
We do not make assumptions about his mental state from a scientific viewpoint.Scripture is greater and truer than weak human measures.
It's my ASSUMPTION that a person who goes without food is affected mentally by that? No its not an assumption it's a SIMPLE FACT!!What Nick, you think that the brain is separate from the body, that it does not rely on food and water to work?
Nick, Jesus CAME IN THE FLESH, he was NOT a ghost.
Luke 22:44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
The AGONY that Jesus felt was occurring in his mind.
When it says that Jesus sweat became like great drops of blood, what should I take that to mean? Was it really hot out that night? Or should I use my common knowledge from my high school health class that people can also sweat when they are under mental stress.
But Jesus according to YOU Nick is NOT how the scriptures say, to YOU he is apparently some sort of mental and physical superhero, where going without food does not tempt him, and he had no fear of death whatsoever.
When the Israelites disobeyed collecting the manna I suppose you believe it was rebel evil spirits in them whispering to them telling them they should hate God and disobey Him?
It had nothing to do with the fact they feared hunger and starvation.
Hebrews 5:6 As He also says in another place: “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek”; F24 7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
But according to you Nick, there was no suffering there was no sweat, there were no tears or crying out. Jesus apparently did not possess any emotions.
I suppose diabetes is a product of rebel spirit possession according to your understanding. I suppose low blood sugar affecting the mind is just another ONE of MY FALSE ASSUMPTIONS!!!!!!
you read to far into scripture sis'…you should research something called..”preterist”
Quote (dirtyknections @ May 14 2009,02:26) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 13 2009,05:10) DK, I would like to know honestly, what you personally have experienced or witnessed yourself. Me, personally…I have only experienced a couple of things…mainly because my mother refused to let me spend any significant amount of time at my grandparents home where these events took place i.e. no sleepovers and no being there alone…
1. My cousin who was visiting from out of town and I were allowed to stay the night with my grandmother one night. We were about 12. Now my grandmother would get up at the crack of dawn to cook breakfast whenever she had visitors over. So right before dawn my cousin and I were awaken by loud footsteps.
( my grandmothers house is one of those early century homes that have the floating floors i.e. the house actually is suspended off the ground..so footsteps sound like “Doom..Doom..Doom”)
Well, I tell him that I am going to get up to see if grandma needs any help. So I walk into the living room…and see no one…I check the kitchen and other rooms and see no one…finally I go to my grandmother's room and peek in….SHE WAS SOUND ASLEEP… I don't really think anything of it so I tell my cousin that grandma was sleep and that she probably just went to the bathroom….so I lay back down…
Well, about 10 minutes later…we hear the footsteps again..”Doom..Doom..Doom…Doom”…So I get up again….and again NO ONE is there…I walk over to my grandma's room and again she is SOUND ASLEEP…at this point i get scared..I go back into the room and my cousin asks if grandma was up..
He just looks at me..and I stare back…then i said I'm not getting up until she comes in hear…lol…when she finally awoke…we asked her if she had been walking around the house
earlier and she said NO…suffice it to say…I didn't spend the night there again until i was an adult…lol…2.I'ma make this one shorter because I hafta go…basically one night my grandma and aunt called some of the men up there..myself included…because they thought someone was trying to break into the house..they said they heard all types of commotion on the back porch…Now my grandmother has a back porch that had been converted into a laundry room…but we still referred to it as the “back porch”..
Anyway, my aunt said that when she went into the laundry everything was a mess..like someone had been “plundering” thru the things…At first I thought it could possibly be a small animal i.e. a cat or something..until I saw that the washing machine and dryer were moved clear across the room… well we put everything back in place and checked things out..then called it a night…
Well…30 minutes after we left we got another call to “come quick..its happening again!!!!”..We rushed up there…and what did we find? The laundry room ramshacked…AGAIN…
like i said that house is HAUNTED…There have been over 20 people who have experienced things in that house…even friends of the family…we are not crazy…EVIL SPIRITS do exist..
Even without the bible..I can easily come to that conclusion…and so have millions of other people..
That is quit a story, I have heard about hunted houses before. One of our friends in the W>W>C> of God told me about that. Yes Satan is the God of this world and his demons are around. Some are stronger then others.
Thank you and have a nice day.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (kerwin @ May 13 2009,20:01) Jodi Lee wrote: Quote I don't go by what anyone tells me, are you unfamiliar with how medical science works?
Are you? Did you realize that science only deals with the unspiritual world? They do not even consider there may be outside forces at work. In other words the assumption of most so called scientist is that religion should be completely separate from science. I find that to be an absurd idea and favor the integration approach.
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote Are you unfamiliar with how medicine works? You must be one of those people who refuses medical care
I am a kidney disease patient as a result of a hereditary curse, which is in the family for a reason I do not know. I am currently on dialysis. I am somewhat aware how medicine works, or does not work, at least to the extent I that I use it. It is an attempt by man to counteract the effects a demon causes on the body that is doomed to failure unless God wills otherwise.
Do you understand the conflict between the powers of evil and the powers of good that go on in this world? God created our bodies to be perfect but Satan and his host came along and altered them in many ways such as causing malevolent changes in the genetics as for example my kidney disease. He also caused changes (mutations) that scientists like to say are the result of random variables and natural selection in other life forms that makes them harmful to human beings. Sometimes the devil will use what is meant for good such as e-coli for evil. God uses Satan’s action for his good and righteous purposes. Researchers do not even look for this battle and so do not see it because they choose to be blind. The question is do you choose to be as blind as they are?
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote I am confused by your example of 1 Kings 22, the lying spirits are spirits following God's command. God it says PUT FORTH the lying spirit. There is NO reference here to rebel spirits. Just spirits OBEYING GOD!!
God does not tempt anyone to do evil and so the spirit is by its very nature in rebellion against him because it is an evil spirit being one of false prophecy. The demons serve God even while they rebel against him as they cannot do anything without his permission. If you read the book of Job you will find that Satan could not act against Job until God gave him permission to do so. Satan motives for acting against Job were evil while God allowed Satan to act because he that is was good to do so. Did you read the scripture where Jesus taught his students not to worry as not even a sparrow can fall from the sky but by the will of God?
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote Kerwin, I would just like to thank you for the manner in which you approach to converse here. We may understand the same scriptures differently but I REALLY appreciate the fact that you take what I say and then give your own take with use of scripture.
Thank you. It is only by the grace of God that I am patient and considerate in whatever ways I am.
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote One last thing….I firmly believe that science holds as many lies and deceptions as Christian doctrine does! Man everywhere is full of distortion and lies.
Lies do abound which is consistent with God speaking through scripture as he tells us that men without God have venom on their lips. May God grant you a good night’s sleep!
Kerwin,Exodus 4:11 “So the Lord said to him,” Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?”
Deut 30: 19,” ….I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing;”
I Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. The Lord makes the poor and the rich;”
Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”
Kerwin what do you think it means when God says there is NONE besides Him, that He creates darkness and calamity.
Context here is that God is warning people NOT to believe that other forces exist that can inflict people, it is by God's POWERS ALONE that inflictions come.
This is the FOUNDATION of my understanding.
God says in Deuteronomy 28 and I believe I have read it in at least one or two other places, that he made cursing to be passed down to children and children's children. Thus God made diseases hereditary.
Quote (dirtyknections @ May 14 2009,02:52) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 14 2009,02:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2009,22:12) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 13 2009,18:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2009,17:57) Hi Jodi,
So our Master was deluded?
Was this only temporary or not?Should we rely on you to tell us who is deluded?
Nick, have you ever fasted before? Like say for a 24 hour period? How did you feel? How was your mental state?Jesus was a human being just like us, you honestly think that after 40 DAYS without food his MIND WAS AT THE TOP OF HIS GAME?
The body and the MIND of Jesus were weakened because of starvation, thus they were more influential to deceive him and lead him astray. The carnal nature of man does indeed deceive man and lead him astray…it speaks and says serve me and you shall live and be fulfilled. But the truth is that to be carnally minded is death, to be Spiritually minded is life and peace.
Hi Jodi,
We do not make assumptions about his mental state from a scientific viewpoint.Scripture is greater and truer than weak human measures.
It's my ASSUMPTION that a person who goes without food is affected mentally by that? No its not an assumption it's a SIMPLE FACT!!What Nick, you think that the brain is separate from the body, that it does not rely on food and water to work?
Nick, Jesus CAME IN THE FLESH, he was NOT a ghost.
Luke 22:44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
The AGONY that Jesus felt was occurring in his mind.
When it says that Jesus sweat became like great drops of blood, what should I take that to mean? Was it really hot out that night? Or should I use my common knowledge from my high school health class that people can also sweat when they are under mental stress.
But Jesus according to YOU Nick is NOT how the scriptures say, to YOU he is apparently some sort of mental and physical superhero, where going without food does not tempt him, and he had no fear of death whatsoever.
When the Israelites disobeyed collecting the manna I suppose you believe it was rebel evil spirits in them whispering to them telling them they should hate God and disobey Him?
It had nothing to do with the fact they feared hunger and starvation.
Hebrews 5:6 As He also says in another place: “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek”; F24 7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
But according to you Nick, there was no suffering there was no sweat, there were no tears or crying out. Jesus apparently did not possess any emotions.
I suppose diabetes is a product of rebel spirit possession according to your understanding. I suppose low blood sugar affecting the mind is just another ONE of MY FALSE ASSUMPTIONS!!!!!!
you read to far into scripture sis'…you should research something called..”preterist”
What is it specifically that you believe I am reading to far into. What conclusion is it that I have in error from that particular post? And what do you believe then is the correct understanding?
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