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Hi Jodi,
You should not apply weak humanistic science to the words of God.
They are truth but man is ignorantHi Jodi,
Doctors can't cure diseases like osteoporosis.
Jesus the great Physician could.
He knew the cause.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2009,15:59) Hi Jodi,
You should not apply weak humanistic science to the words of God.
They are truth but man is ignorant
Nick how exactly do you deal with the FACT that God says He alone created darkness and calamity, that He is the one that created the deaf, dumb and mute… and that these are the attributes we see in those who are inflicted by evil spirits?Give me scripture of which you use to define demon, or evil spirit. Nick……why don't you enlighten us with your vast knowledge of the word of God? How Nick do you define and determine what the demons or evil spirits in the gospels are?
Come on….don't be lazy… enlighten us? Give us the scriptures that bring you your understanding and explain them.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2009,16:12) Hi Jodi,
Doctors can't cure diseases like osteoporosis.
Jesus the great Physician could.
He knew the cause.
So what's your point Nick in relation to evil spirits?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2009,15:59) Hi Jodi,
You should not apply weak humanistic science to the words of God.
They are truth but man is ignorant
Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick,I am showing how mainstream Christianity is built on ignorance and superstition. Most Christians sit in a church and are fed ancient passed down doctrine and are given a handful of scriptures to go along with, of which they QUICKLY glance over, and then it's done their decision as to the truth is made firm, they then become loyal to their pastor and their church, and are thus NEVER truly loyal to God's Word. The points I made about things to remember when reading about evil spirits or demons in the Gospels was to expose how Christian beliefs about demons lack all common sense and are without proper examination of the scriptures.
Nick I have given you many many scriptures and have told you what they say….I want you to tell us what you think they say.
I guess at this point I should know that such is not possible with you for what reason I can only speculate, all I know is that it is very unfortunate and disappointing…..in other words you make this forum blow! Thanks buddy, nice work!!
Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 07 2009,13:38) I would like to argue that the Pharisees in the New Testament were indeed whores, prostituting themselves to false religion and denying the truth established in the Old Testament by God's faithful prophets. Likewise, Christians who believe that the inflicting demons in the Gospels are rebel spirits to God, have as well gone a whoring, blindingly following after the deceitful traditions of men, giving head to false prophets and false doctrine!! Mt 12:24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”
Beelzebub was the False god of the Philistines.
What does the bible tell us about false gods and their demons/evil spirits?
De 32:17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear.
Psalms 106: 28 They yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor and ate sacrifices offered to lifeless gods; 29 they provoked the Lord to anger by their wicked deeds, and a plague broke out among them.
Isa 37:19 They have thrown their gods into the fire and destroyed them, for they were not gods but only wood and stone, fashioned by human hands.
Isa 45:20 “Gather together and come; assemble, you fugitives from the nations. Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood, who pray to gods that cannot save.
Jer 1:16 I will pronounce my judgments on my people because of their wickedness in forsaking me, in burning incense to other gods and in worshiping what their hands have made.
Jer 16:19 O Lord, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in time of distress, to you the nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, “Our fathers possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good.
Jer 16:20 Do men make their own gods? Yes, but they are not gods!”
Da 5:23 Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.
Re 9:20 and the rest of men, who were not killed in these plagues, neither did reform from the works of their hands, that they may not bow before the demons, and idols, those of gold, and those of silver, and those of brass, and those of stone, and those of wood, that are neither able to see, nor to hear, nor to walk,
Demons cannot walk, they cannot talk, their powers are FAKE, but yet their deception by false prophets are REAL.
If these demons have NO power, then how on earth could they be fallen angels or some other sort of rebellious spirit?
There is NO evidence in the bible to suggest that the demons of False religions are fallen angels in disguise. On the contrary scripture directly tells us that the demons or evil spirits of false religions have NO power, YHWH alone brings blessing and Cursing. He sends forth angels who are His Faithful servants to infect people with evil spirits such as madness, blindness and deafness.
Exodus 4:11 “So the Lord said to him,” Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?”
Deut 30: 19,” ….I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing;”
I Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. The Lord makes the poor and the rich;”
Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”
Deuteronomy 28 is such a telling chapter in the bible, it is just so unfortunate to see most Christians preferring to either dismiss it or rather flat out ignore it all together.
20 “The Lord will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me
28 The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you.
34 So you shall be driven mad because of the sight which your eyes see. 35 The Lord will strike you in the knees and on the legs with severe boils which cannot be healed, and from the sole of your foot to the top of your head. 36 The Lord will bring you and the king whom you set over you to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods–wood and stone.
Professing to be wise it seems most Christians are whores, following after the traditions of men. Paul gives warning-
1Co 10:19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons.
Not only do we see in the Old Testament false prophets teaching of false powers of gods and demons, we see this as well in the New Testament.
I Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
Those deceiving spirits, the false prophets, were liars. They were whores just like the Pharisees believing in traditions of men and were as well creating new deceptions, which happen to be found today in Christian beliefs.
The Old Testament tells us that God sends evil unto people cursing them with madness and such things as blindness. So it would then seem clear that the evil spirits referred to as demons in the New Testament that are inflicting people with madness and such things as blindness, muteness, deafness, should be understood as God’s evil spirits. If evil spirits and unclean spirits are interchangeable with the word demon then we could refer to God’s spirits then as demons. God’s demons, or evil spirits are the only spirits with the power to bring on cursing and infliction.
Jodi,While your point was well intended it wasn't actually accurate
Ephesians 6:11-13 (King James Version)
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 08 2009,16:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2009,15:59) Hi Jodi,
You should not apply weak humanistic science to the words of God.
They are truth but man is ignorant
Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick,I am showing how mainstream Christianity is built on ignorance and superstition. Most Christians sit in a church and are fed ancient passed down doctrine and are given a handful of scriptures to go along with, of which they QUICKLY glance over, and then it's done their decision as to the truth is made firm, they then become loyal to their pastor and their church, and are thus NEVER truly loyal to God's Word. The points I made about things to remember when reading about evil spirits or demons in the Gospels was to expose how Christian beliefs about demons lack all common sense and are without proper examination of the scriptures.
Luke 8:29-31 (English Standard Version)
29For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. (For many a time it had seized him. He was kept under guard and bound with chains and shackles, but he would break the bonds and be driven by the demon(A) into the desert.) 30Jesus then asked him, “What is your name?” And he said,(B) “Legion,” for many demons had entered him. 31And they begged him not to command them to depart into the abyss.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2009,16:36) Hi Jodi,
What does scripture say?
Matthew 1243″When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. 44Then it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order. 45Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So also will it be with this evil generation.”
The scripture is clear that spirits can cause evil to a person and in this example it is clear that God is not oppressing the person and that the unclean spirit is acting on its own. Just as we do sin on our own.
Hi Jodi,
How can you claim loyalty to God's word when you deny the words of the one who is the truth?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2009,17:07) Hi Jodi,
Are you any sort of authority to interpret scripture for us?
Let scripture do so.
We do.
Nick,We are all here on this forum to share our understanding. You are being absurd, you have read several times why I come to this forum. I have stated before that I post what make the best sense to me given what the scriptures say, I have never claimed to be any sort of authority.
Why don't your follow bodhitharta example and make a proper post. That would be refreshing
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2009,18:37) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 07 2009,13:38) I would like to argue that the Pharisees in the New Testament were indeed whores, prostituting themselves to false religion and denying the truth established in the Old Testament by God's faithful prophets. Likewise, Christians who believe that the inflicting demons in the Gospels are rebel spirits to God, have as well gone a whoring, blindingly following after the deceitful traditions of men, giving head to false prophets and false doctrine!! Mt 12:24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”
Beelzebub was the False god of the Philistines.
What does the bible tell us about false gods and their demons/evil spirits?
De 32:17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear.
Psalms 106: 28 They yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor and ate sacrifices offered to lifeless gods; 29 they provoked the Lord to anger by their wicked deeds, and a plague broke out among them.
Isa 37:19 They have thrown their gods into the fire and destroyed them, for they were not gods but only wood and stone, fashioned by human hands.
Isa 45:20 “Gather together and come; assemble, you fugitives from the nations. Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood, who pray to gods that cannot save.
Jer 1:16 I will pronounce my judgments on my people because of their wickedness in forsaking me, in burning incense to other gods and in worshiping what their hands have made.
Jer 16:19 O Lord, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in time of distress, to you the nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, “Our fathers possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good.
Jer 16:20 Do men make their own gods? Yes, but they are not gods!”
Da 5:23 Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.
Re 9:20 and the rest of men, who were not killed in these plagues, neither did reform from the works of their hands, that they may not bow before the demons, and idols, those of gold, and those of silver, and those of brass, and those of stone, and those of wood, that are neither able to see, nor to hear, nor to walk,
Demons cannot walk, they cannot talk, their powers are FAKE, but yet their deception by false prophets are REAL.
If these demons have NO power, then how on earth could they be fallen angels or some other sort of rebellious spirit?
There is NO evidence in the bible to suggest that the demons of False religions are fallen angels in disguise. On the contrary scripture directly tells us that the demons or evil spirits of false religions have NO power, YHWH alone brings blessing and Cursing. He sends forth angels who are His Faithful servants to infect people with evil spirits such as madness, blindness and deafness.
Exodus 4:11 “So the Lord said to him,” Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?”
Deut 30: 19,” ….I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing;”
I Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. The Lord makes the poor and the rich;”
Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”
Deuteronomy 28 is such a telling chapter in the bible, it is just so unfortunate to see most Christians preferring to either dismiss it or rather flat out ignore it all together.
20 “The Lord will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me
28 The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you.
34 So you shall be driven mad because of the sight which your eyes see. 35 The Lord will strike you in the knees and on the legs with severe boils which cannot be healed, and from the sole of your foot to the top of your head. 36 The Lord will bring you and the king whom you set over you to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods–wood and stone.
Professing to be wise it seems most Christians are whores, following after the traditions of men. Paul gives warning-
1Co 10:19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons.
Not only do we see in the Old Testament false prophets teaching of false powers of gods and demons, we see this as well in the New Testament.
I Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
Those deceiving spirits, the false prophets, were liars. They were whores just like the Pharisees believing in traditions of men and were as well creating new deceptions, which happen to be found today in Christian beliefs.
The Old Testament tells us that God sends evil unto people cursing them with madness and such things as blindness. So it would then seem clear that the evil spirits referred to as demons in the New Testament that are inflicting people with madness and such things as blindness, muteness, deafness, should be understood as God’s evil spirits. If evil spirits and unclean spirits are interchangeable with the word demon then we could refer to God’s spirits then as demons. God’s demons, or evil spirits are the only spirits with the power to bring on cursing and infliction.
Jodi,While your point was well intended it wasn't actually accurate
Ephesians 6:11-13 (King James Version)
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to
stand.
Hello bodhitharta and thanks for joining this topic!I disagree with how you understand Ephesians 6.
First let's give context. Paul is in prison, his adversary or Satan, is the King who is in a high position and thus dwells in a heavenly realm. Refer to Old Testament language and history where Kings are referred often as dwelling in heaven.
Why does Paul say we do not wrestle against flesh and blood. I believe that people automatically see this scripture under man's traditions from what they have been told rather then using Pauls own teachings to try and understand what Paul is saying. Paul speaks a lot about putting to death the body, that to be alive in Christ is to be dead to sin and the source of sin of which Paul so elequently tells us is when we follow our flesh and blood or in other words our carnal nature.
Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another–to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,* who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Romans 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Paul says this just after talking about a physical body and a spiritual body. We cannot inherit the kingdom under flesh and blood with a carnal mind, we must be spiritually minded.
If Christ is in us Paul teaches that our bodies are dead, we no longer wrestle against flesh and blood. Christ has died for our sins, so even though we cannot live a perfect life, sin and our carnal nature is to no longer rules over us, the deeds of the body have been put to death.
Ga 5:24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Now here is the clincher scripture from Paul
2 Corinthians 10:1 Now I, Paul, myself am pleading with you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ–who in presence am lowly among you, but being absent am bold toward you. 2 But I beg you that when I am present I may not be bold with that confidence by which I intend to be bold against some, who think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.
Paul stated that even though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to it, for as Galatians says we have crucified the flesh. Our weapons are not carnal they are Spiritual they are in our mind, we use our mind to strengthen us and to keep us in the faith.
Context tells us that Paul in Ephesians 6 is warning the early Christians of upcoming persecution, of whom he has already been a victim of. Paul's brethren will need the whole armor of God to stand against the war that the Christians will face. This war is a mental one, will the they remain confident in the Spirit, or will they falter under persecution??
Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Walking according to the course of the world is walking according to the ruler of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience. What is this spirit?? We are directly told what it is, it is the spirit in man of his carnal nature, the ignorant fool following after his instincts giving into the lust of the flesh.
By NATURE we are children of wrath, not by some invisible rebel spirits. Jesus said woe to the world for the offense, woe to man for by whom the offenses come. The ruler or prince of this world is the carnal driving force within everyman. Kings in their high places feed off of this spirit. This spirit dwells in the air for it is nothing but empty and unfruitful. Man's spirit NEEDS God's Spirit.1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
1 Corinthians 14:9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.
Paul in both these examples uses air to represent emptiness.
Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
Man can of his own self do nothing, he is full of emptiness, his mind according to his carnal nature is full of deceit, this is why it is said that we are “born children of wrath”, and “the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth”. Man needs the Spirit of God in him.
Man should not walk according to the course of the world, according to the ruler of this world which is man's carnal nature, because this spirit's power is of the air, meaning it is empty and worthless.
So with all this being said let's get back to
Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.Devil means slanderer, the King in his
heavenly place is falsely persecuting Christians. Christians must be mentally strong putting on the whole armor of God to be able to stand remaining faithful against their oppressor!13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints–
To have the Spirit of God is to be in a mental state with God's understanding and truth working in you. The Christians need to prepare themselves not by means of protecting their flesh and blood, they are going to do war in their minds according to their oppressor who will CHALLENGE their faith.
John gives a revelation of warning as Paul did…
Re 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
The Devil or Slanderer is not some rebel spirit, that Christian idea comes from the early pagan converts who formed the RCC and created Christian doctrine from interpreting scripture not through other scriptures but through their previously held pagan ideologies.
People need to come out of this deceitful doctrine.
The devil spoken of in Revelation is obviously the King. He is a slanderer because he follows after the dark spirit in man, the spirit that does anything to feed it's own flesh. It is the spirit of the air, holding nothing but emptiness and deceit. The King is following after his carnal nature and is a brute beast persecuting innocent people, putting some in jail and hanging thousands of others on a cross.
I find it truly unfortunate that people look at Ephesians 6 and all they can see is the deception that' s been handed down to them, believing that there exists some dark world we cannot see that's in the sky full of rebel spirits ready to curse and manipulate people. So unfortunate that people feed into ignorance and superstition, rather that forming biblical understanding from the bible itself!!
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2009,18:44) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 08 2009,16:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2009,15:59) Hi Jodi,
You should not apply weak humanistic science to the words of God.
They are truth but man is ignorant
Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick,I am showing how mainstream Christianity is built on ignorance and superstition. Most Christians sit in a church and are fed ancient passed down doctrine and are given a handful of scriptures to go along with, of which they QUICKLY glance over, and then it's done their decision as to the truth is made firm, they then become loyal to their pastor and their church, and are thus NEVER truly loyal to God's Word. The points I made about things to remember when reading about evil spirits or demons in the Gospels was to expose how Christian beliefs about demons lack all common sense and are without proper examination of the scriptures.
Luke 8:29-31 (English Standard Version)
29For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. (For many a time it had seized him. He was kept under guard and bound with chains and shackles, but he would break the bonds and be driven by the demon(A) into the desert.) 30Jesus then asked him, “What is your name?” And he said,(B) “Legion,” for many demons had entered him. 31And they begged him not to command them to depart into© the abyss.
God says that He brings about madness. Like I have stated before men under delusions can say and do anything. When I studied psychology in college I watched a documentary on people with various mental disorders, and if I were lets say an ignorant Catholic I would have believed the behavior of the people was do to possession by fallen angels and that the people themselves were probably evil for allowing themselves to be controlled by such monsters. However the truth be told that the behaviors had scientific explanations, and that the persons were suffering from diseases. YHWH brings forth madness and disease, He ALONE is the ONLY supernatural being that can inflict man with evil spirits. A person can suffer from more then one disease or disorder at a time, and any given disorder or disease can cause a person to have several evil spirits.Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2009,18:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2009,16:36) Hi Jodi,
What does scripture say?
Matthew 1243″When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. 44Then it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order. 45Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So also will it be with this evil generation.”
The scripture is clear that spirits can cause evil to a person and in this example it is clear that God is not oppressing the person and that the unclean spirit is acting on its own. Just as we do sin on our own.
The word translated wicked –
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 4190 Browse Lexicon
Original WordWord Origin
ponhrov�from a derivative of (4192)
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
Poneros6:546,912
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
pon-ay-ros' Adjective
Definition1. full of labours, annoyances, hardships
1. pressed and harassed by labours
2. bringing toils, annoyances, perils; of a time full of peril to Christian faith and steadfastness; causing pain and trouble
2. bad, of a bad nature or condition
1. in a physical sense: diseased or blind
2. in an ethical sense: evil wicked, badSo we see the word 'wicked' used for bad nature both in a physical sense like disease and used under an ethical sense.
43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”
The state of the man before the disease returned with more diseases, we should notice, was put in order. We are told that it was the diseases that then put the man into a bad state, or specifically it says worse state then the first. The man in this example is not said to be wicked and drawing the unclean spirits in for being sinful. The spirits are bad because they are inflicting the person…not because they are influencing the person do wicked things.
The point I believe Jesus was trying to make was that bad men are like a bad disease, just when you think you have gotten rid of it, it returns more worse then before. Jesus will go out and teach and his message will be short lived for many, and to those such people their wickedness will return more wicked then before.
Once again the Bible says that God ALONE brings evil unto man HE alone brings darkness and creates calamity, there is no other god…no other supernatural being that can do such.
I can't quite seem to understand why people can't take this fact into mind when reading scripture.
Nick for your information I don't attend a church or follow any man's doctrine, quite the contrary when I read scripture I try hard to remove my prior indoctrinized beliefs, and go by what the scriptures tell me.
I truly think that is what God asks of us, we should prove all things in our own minds. He gave us a mind, we should use it. We should share our understandings and test them to see if they have weight. It is up to every individual to put forth an honest and hardworking effort to find the truth laid out in scripture.
I debate according to what makes the best sense to me thus far, are there examples where on this forum I have changed my beliefs? Certainly, and it's been because I have found an understanding that makes more sense, all thanks to someone else's understanding or thanks to another person driving me deeper into scripture. Which Nick, I can indeed thank you for that. So Nick let me say…..Thank You!!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 09 2009,07:27) Hi Jodi,
It would be better to submit yourself to the sacred words and let scripture teach you.
Nick why don't you share with us just exactly what your major malfunction is.I just said people on this forum drive me deeper into the scriptures.
I just said I go by what the SCRIPTURES TELL ME
I just said that it is up to every individual to put forth an honest and hardworking effort to find the truth laid out in scripture.
Personally I believe this sort of harassment should get you kicked off this forum.
If you don't have anything of substance to add to this thread, which clearly you have proven that you don't, then PLEASE be kind enough to leave.
YOUR a DISGRACE to this forum.
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