Beam me up

[seekingtruth]

Truth… If I state; “everything I say is a lie” am I telling the truth?

Sometimes truth is complicated but that does not mean that it is not absolute. In other words there are not different versions of truth just different levels of understanding in different areas, of one all-encompassing truth. Christianity is a classic example, all claim to have truth but even within the mainline churches one group’s beliefs conflict with another’s, while pointing to the same book as the source of their belief.

Two factors influencing most Christians are:

Scriptures – Scriptures are for the most part reliable, while a few areas in the original manuscripts may differ slightly, it is however some of the translations that are misleading or in a few cases completely in error in certain areas, it is however the whole of scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit by which we can know all truth.

Traditions – Traditions are so entrenched that for many to even question them is tantamount to heresy. However some traditional interpretations are in error with some even distorting the nature of God, many of these can cause what appears to be conflicts, causing some to shipwreck their faith never knowing that there are other interpretations which will harmonize all of scripture.

What we end up with are opinions, an opinion is a belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof. While I believe all pertinent truth is in scripture, it’s far too vast for any one person to see how it all interweaves. It seems to have been God's will that only those desiring truth over their opinions will be able to find it. This requires reasoning together, trying to understand others position and giving it an honest evaluation to what you know of scripture.

It's hard to give up on a deeply held conviction, but a love for truth makes it possible to do so. This document addresses what I feel the whole of scripture and the Holy Spirit have revealed to me in my studies in the hopes it can help me further sort them out and to possibly be of some help to others.

We have been taught for years to believe certain ways and accept it because greater men then us taught it as truth however scripture tells us to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”
Many have been turned away from certain truths because a “cult” has embraced it among their false doctrines; I believe that the enemy has done this for that very purpose.

Hell – I start with this doctrine as it has done more to dissuade many by impugning the character of God as one who demands unending torment not only of the wicked, but of a grandma who never heard of Jesus. This is inconsistent with the character of God.

Many teach that nearly all the people who have ever lived will suffer in eternal torment in hell. This has been based on a translation of the word aion which has translated as eternal, everlasting, forever this is offered as the proof within the scriptures that punishment goes on forever.

However the translation for aion only means endless when it derives its meaning or endlessness from the nature of the subject to which it is connected. Best translated as “The entirety of time for the object being discussed” Hence when applied to God it is certainly to be considered unending, when applied to smoke rising, until the consumption of the item being burned, and to the torment of the wicked, until all has been paid. God will not torture a non-believer for eternity

But what about the wicked who seem to prosper until death, where is the justice of God. Scriptures support that God will “balance the books” at resurrection. I believe it is God’s way to recompense, it would be unfair for the wicked to have prospered without ever having paid the price I believe it is God’s way to give justice to those who have suffered by exacting a proportional payment from the wicked

As to an argument that if punishment is not eternal then why would life be eternal? This would be valid if aion was the only word that could denote endless duration however scriptures also use other words to describe unending life; such as aphtharsia (incorruptible), athanasian (hath immortality), akataluton (imperishable), aphtharto (immortal)

The fact that there remains debate on the certainty of the proper translation gives reason to at least question it. And while the traditional interpretation is possible, the alternative seems more in line with the character of God

[seekingtruth]

Why is there even a “lake of fire” – I believe that when sin was first found in satan it was only apparent to God. The trouble was, that God knew that the sin in satan would grow and ruin all of heaven itself. So He created the lake of fire to destroy the irredeemable (which I believe that those exposed to Gods glory and still allow sin a place cannot be redeemed). But if He were to throw satan in prior to his sins being apparent to the rest of heavens inhabitants, they would not see the Love and Justice of God as obviously satan was popular and I do not believe that satan had done anything openly evil (something heaven probably didn't understand anyway).

I believe it was at this point God created man with the intent purpose of exposing what sin would do if allowed to run unchecked and to show the length He would go and the price He would pay to redeem His creation if it was possible.

We know that God has His faithful angels and we're told satan has his but I believe that there are still those sitting on the fence. But in Revelation where we are told that war breaks out in heaven and this is where I think the host of heaven have their fill of satan's ways and expel him and his from heaven

Now God who would have been reduced in stature had He have tried to explain His actions, is glorified for His wisdom, Holiness, Love and forgiveness. He has also gained more sons proven through fire than He lost to satan.

Now I believe that this lake of fire is God's justice and will destroy what is thrown in but only at a rate equal to the evil of the one thrown in. In other words the antichrist whom I assume is the most evil person to ever live will have to pay in torment for all he will have done, but those of lesser sins will suffer less, then cease to exist eternally.

Eternal torment is not torment for eternity but torment to completion with eternal consequences. This concept is in keeping with the justice that God requires but with the Love that God is.

I believe that there is a literal “lake of fire”, although it could be that it is not fire, but will share all the characteristics of fire, in that it will consume all that is thrown into it.

As to death and hell being thrown in, I believe this to be mostly literal also. To state why I believe this I must first define what death and hell are. In my opinion hell is storage for souls and death is the portal by which the soul is drawn in once their biological unit ceases to function, this was required to prevent their interference with the living (which would be much like that of demons). To put it in real world terms death and hell are a “Robby the robot” of vacuum cleaners, the hose (death) automatically grabs dirt (souls) no longer attached and sucks them off to storage (hell). That is why I believe prior to Jesus, angels would carry a righteous soul to paradise (a separate storage area, like picking that coin up and putting it on a shelf so it doesn't end up thrown in the trash), God could not accept any of them into heaven (His pocket), yet (as they needed cleaning).

I believe with the earth was under control of satan and hell being contained within the earth he had access to the “general population” (and hating man he did what he could to torment them) but God protected, by right of their faith, those who had placed their trust in Him.

Once Jesus died for our sins, He obtained the keys (control) to death and hell, He first released the captives, those in the protected area (removed the coins from the shelf now clean put them in His pocket), and from then on, all who die in faith can be carried directly to heaven (His pocket) to await resurrection (while those in hell await judgment).

Once the final judgment comes there will be no more need of a storage facility for souls (no more failed biological units) and so the trash collector itself is thrown into the trash (the lake that consumes all that is thrown in).

Just my opinion (although I believe it to be backed by scripture).
 

[seekingtruth]

Trinity – God is a title of position, the Father is far beyond all including even our corporeal universe and He is the source of everything. The Son is the image of the Father and has the nature of the Father (He is all that can be perceived of the Father by those of us in this corporeal existence) and is God’s representative and is in all ways God to us while acknowledging the Father as His God. The Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit but somehow the nature of the spiritual reality has “it” existing separately possible similar to Jesus being an image of the Father in this reality. The Son unlike in traditional teaching is not equal to the Father.

What makes up God?
I believe Jesus and the Holy Spirit are different manifestations of the Father, the best I can do is draw a vague comparison to water. If an endless supply of water was to represent the Father and He created a pocket of cold in the water, then a solid chunk of ice will manifest everywhere the cold intersects with the water. If He further creates another pocket of several hundred degrees then everywhere the water is heated will turn to steam. The water will not have been diminished, or changed into something besides water, there would only be different manifestations, of the same water. Now the water existed before the cold, but did not manifest as ice because the new environment wasn’t there to support it.

God at Creation
Now this is how I believe it happened, with the foundation of our reality laid, God was manifested in this new reality as everything our reality could possibly support of the Father (but was far short of the whole). Now this manifestation was the “pre-incarnate Jesus” not a separate being, but God Himself manifested at the birth of our reality, it was as by this manifestation that He created all things in creation.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.  
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

God in OT times
It was this “manifestation” that dealt with mankind from creation until the conception in Mary.

Verses where God appeared to man:
Genesis 17:1 And Abram is a son of ninety and nine years, and Jehovah appeareth unto Abram, and saith unto him, … 22Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD. … 22and He finisheth speaking with him, and God goeth up from Abraham.

Genesis 26:24 That night the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am the God of your father Abraham.

Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
Genesis 35:1 And God saith unto Jacob, `Rise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there, and make there an altar to God, who appeared unto thee in thy fleeing from the face of Esau thy brother.' …  9 After Jacob returned from Paddan Aram, [c] God appeared to him again and blessed him. … 13 Then God went up from him at the place where he had talked with him.
Exodus 3:4 and Jehovah seeth that he hath turned aside to see, and God calleth unto him out of the midst of the bush, and saith, `Moses, Moses;' and he saith, `Here [am] I.' … 6:2And God speaketh unto Moses, and saith unto him, `I [am] Jehovah, 3 and I appear unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; as to My name Jehovah, I have not been known to them;
Exodus 24:9-11 9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, [a] clear as the sky itself. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.
2 Chronicles 1:7
That night God appeared to Solomon and said to him, “Ask for whatever you want me to give you.”
Job 33:26
He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state.
Could it have been the Father appearing to people throughout the OT?
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
According to this scripture God had to have had some sort of “earthly appearance” that was less than the whole. He also understood that God would dwell on earth.
1 Kings 8:27
“But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
But would God manifest Himself?
John 1:32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.
Jesus at conception
This manifestation having the makings of this reality, but with the essence of God, was at the opportune time sent to fulfill the secret of God to make possible the age of grace.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
I Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Ephesians 3:9 and to cause all to see what [is] the fellowship of the secret that hath been hid from the ages in God, who the all things did create by Jesus Christ,
Phil 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”
Ephesians 3:2 if, indeed, ye did hear of the dispensation of the grace of God that was given to me in regard to you,
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
Jesus’ position while walking the earth
The essence of God’s corporeal manifestation emptied of all but the nature of God was impregnated into Mary in a manner that she remained a virgin and the essence of God was born into a child, not having a sin nature, but fully human.
Philippians 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
1 John 4:2 This is how you can rec
ognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
John 17:4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Hebrews  1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says, He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.”
8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed.  But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”
13 To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
 
Jesus’ position after the resurrection

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Jn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 14 “You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I

Ephesians 1:20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,
2 Corinthians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort
Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,

Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

Philippians 2: 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things,

Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed.  But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”
13 To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?

[seekingtruth]

5sRomans 14:1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to (understand more things and) eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, (understands less and) eats only vegetables. 3The man who (has more knowledge) eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who (understands less) does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

What “God” is, is definitely a “disputable matter”. Why does one “eat everything”, because he has a better understanding, and why does one who is weak “not eat”, because he does not have as good of an understanding. I believe many are taking the trinity dis-agreement beyond what it should be, we are not saved by having a full understanding of what God is, but by what He did for us. As it says later in this same chapter “13
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.”

Scripture

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: This scripture indicates there is the Father, a Son, and a Holy Ghost but does not say they are all are equal. Most older manuscripts

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. To me this scripture indicates that God is the Father but Jesus seems somewhat excluded from being “God” the source.

Colossians 3:17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. This verse shows the highly exalted position of Jesus but at the same time seems to indicate there is more to the Father then there is to Jesus otherwise why do our thanks need to go through Jesus to the Father.

Matt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. It seems to show that it is ok to worship Jesus as the Son of God

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This scripture seems to indicate that God is a title and made up of at least two beings.

Eph 3;9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Seems to indicate that God used Jesus to accomplish His will, putting Jesus in submission to the Father.

Jn 14 “You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.” Once again it seems that the Father is more than the Son.

Phil 2-5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” Seems that Jesus was more before He was “made into the likeness of man” but even then He did not see Himself equal to God.

1Jn 4-2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: this shows that Jesus was/is more than a man, all men come in the flesh.

Jn 14-26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. indicates that the Holy Ghost is something seperate from the Father.

I Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Seems to support the idea of Jesus being God in the flesh but also could be that God was manifested in the life of Jesus.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. The Son seems to be called the everlasting Father this scripture would seem to be a problem for either side of the trinity argument. Is this a good translation? Note the verse states He will be called, not that He is, as God’s representative who is even worthy of worship (but one who gives all glory to the Father) He truly does embody all those things while giving all glory to the Father (never glorifying Himself).

Jn 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. This verse seems to leave little room for doubt that Jesus pre-existed the world and it also indicates that the Father is greater since He is the giver of; power, those who will be saved, work to be done. He also said “know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” which seems clear that the Father is the only true God.

2 Corinthians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort This seems quite clear that The Father is God to the Son.

Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
Col 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him
Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form
Seems to indicate Jesus is a deity like unto the Father but since it was the “Fathers good pleasure” that allowed it, it indicates that the Father is greater then the Son.

As to fullness in Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God. I guess since we are filled with the fullness of God it won't reveal too much about a possible trinity.

Hebrews 1In the past God (has to be the Father) spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe (the Son pre-existed as a powerful being). 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory (indicates the Father is the source) and the exact representation (my take is that the Son is just like the Father but in a way we can comprehend) of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty (Supreme authority) in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”? (seems to indicate a start) Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son” (“will be” speaks of a future event) ? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God's angels worship him.”[d] 7In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire.”[e] 8But about
the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God (the Father calls the Son, God), will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God (the Father is God to the Son), has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[f] 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[g] 13To which of the angels did God ever say (the Son was never an angel),
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”[h]? 14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus 6 Who being in very nature God (Jesus was the nature of God) did not consider equality with God something to be grasped (even though he had God's nature He still did not think equality was something available for Him) 7 but made himself nothing taking the very nature of a servant being made in human likeness (the previous statement about being in the nature of God must have been pre-incarnate) . 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place (He could only be exalted by someone greater) and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him (Jesus is worthy of worship); but some doubted. (doubted what?) 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (highest position) 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (seems clear but does this mean they're all equal?) 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

I Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh (Jesus was God), justified in the Spirit (the Holy Spirit), seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (the Jews position was that by saying He was the Son of God, then He was saying He was equal to God) 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (Jesus was quick to point out that He was not equal but only did what the Father wanted) 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. (Jesus telling of how highly exalted His position was) 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (seems fairly clear that Jesus although separate was God) 2 He was with God in the beginning. (beginning of what, not God, he had no beginning, it seems to be saying the beginning of creation) 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. 6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God 13 children born not of natural descent nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ” 16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only who is at the Father's side, has made him known. (here is a verse that says God was made known to us by a separate being named God, Scripture does call Jesus God)

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (his ultimate lie was to God but it was done through the Holy Spirit, if you lie to the representative, you lied to the one they represent.)

Mathew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. blas•phe•my A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity. (it appears that if what we are teaching goes against what the Holy Spirit is guiding us towards, we are guilty of blasphemy)

 

[seekingtruth]

Jesus/creation
Perhaps the creation of the “heavens and the earth” was the conception of the Son and “let there be light” was the birth of the Son of God (operating independent from the Father but as a child).

Man’s purpose – The Father created us to rule under His Son over this creation. The finite nature of this corporeal existence provided an arena to show the angels of heaven the long term effects of satan’s sin and why it is necessary that he and those who chose to follow him are deserving of the lake of fire. It also showed the length that the Father would go to redeem His creation and the Love He has for it.

 
Predestination
What I've concluded best aligns with scripture is:
When God gave to man, the dominion of the earth, He did just that. And in doing so He limited Himself in what He is able to do on earth to accomplish His will without overridding man's dominion, He was left with; what he had set in place at creation (more later), what He can accomplish through His people (those from all the ages who have chosen to be obedient) and finally to exerting influence upon all people (not by forcing them, but by moving in their situations to achieve His desired result).

As to the major “interventions” of God, I believe they were actually put into motion at creation, some examples are:
* The flood possibly started by a meteorite crashing into the earth
* The ten plagues of Egypt could have been caused by a volcano in Greece
* The parting of the sea was due to winds, landslides, freezing or some other mechanism not currently understood
* The geography of Sodom and Gomorrah was such that it was destined to suffer a natural disaster fitting the description given
* The walls of Jericho were build on ground that through some natural occurrence would fail and cause the walls to collapse due to the vibration caused by the marching and a shout of a million or so people.
* An asteroid somewhere out there has planet earth in it's future path to fulfill being the one predicted in revelation.

Once again, trying to be clear, I believe that God limits His direct intervention to; natural occurrences (arranged by Him at creation, prior to giving man dominion), those He can accomplish through His people by their faith, (such as floating axe heads, curing ills, confusing enemies, etc.), and through maneuvering the ungodly into situations so that their choices, accomplish His will.

Now with all that said, God's plan for my life was not (in my opinion) detailed at the foundation of the world, however I believe that God has various plans for us, a perfect plan but due to human weaknesses will most likely fail, a good plan which could succeed (despite my weaknesses) with a concerted effort on my part, and an acceptable plan which contains many of my failures but by His grace includes my salvation. God will work within the limits He has set, He does not force us or directly intervene without those having the dominion (man) making a request (through prayer).

Now I believe that satan and his cohorts achieve some level of dominion through mostly the ungodly whom they can easily deceive, but also through the Godly as they fail to be obedient to God. There have been times that satan has tried taking a more active role but has lead to a response from God when they cross some line (chains in darkness type thing).

Now, I believe, God knows what will happen in my life, that at times I will be deceived and make wrong choices, sometimes, He will do all that is possible within His restraints to try and help me make the right decision, other times He allows me to make wrong decisions without even a whisper when going through it accomplishes a greater good (for me or others).

In the end God is glorified because He left man with dominion (we wouldn't have really had it if He would have taken it back right after the fall) and despite having limited Himself to an apparent disadvantage to satan, He has displayed for all how satan could never be like the Most High even in an environment and with people that give him all the advantages (weak as the flesh is).

This also explains the evil surrounding us and why God does not intervene (beyond stirring His people to fight it).

This postulation seems to be in line with the whole of scripture (as best as I can remember it), but I would appreciate others input as to where I might of missed something (and of course I could be totally wrong but it sure seems to fit, to me anyway)

 
Creation
I believe that the “first born of all creation” comes from when the Father, having determined to create our corporeal reality, spoke it into existence. That is, from outside our reality He established the framework (namely time and 3D space) and at the point where our dimension first began to exist the essence of the Father manifested within this new dimension, not as a created item but the very nature of the Father, a Son truly begotten from the Father.

The Son is everything, that those of us within this reality could ever perceive of the Father (when you've seen me you've seen the Father).

As to John 1:1 in the beginning was the word (He spoke into existence) and the word was with God (The manifestation existed independent of the Father) and the word was God(the Son was manifested from the Father)

3Through (key word) him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

…

18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only (the Son is referred to in many places in scripture as “God” I believe him to be our “God” established so by the Father, He is the Father's agent, representative, obedient Son, etc., to all of creation) who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

 
Judgment – God will resurrect the dead, first will be the Judgment seat of Christ, where all believers answer for the things done in this body, after which they take part in the millennium, after the 1000 years are complete every remaining soul will be resurrected at which time God will balance the books (so to speak). At the great white throne judgment God will separate those found worthy by His law of love for entrance into the kingdom from those to be punished.

I do not believe that people are given a second chance, but there will be those surprised by their admittance (sheep/goats), yet there are also those surprised by their entrance being barred, “Lord didn't we”

I believe God will resurrect the dead, starting first with believers who will stand before the Judgment seat of Christ, where all believers (OT & NT whose faith was in God) answer for the things done in this body, they then enjoy the wedding feast, after which they take part in the millennium which I believe to be a time to show all creation what life on earth would have been like had Adam not fallen, once the 1000 years are complete every remaining soul, those who remained alive (not those already resurrected) and those dead having not made the first resurrection (but now resurrected) at which time God will balance the books (so to speak). At the great white throne judgment God will separate those found worthy by His law of love (sheep) for entrance into the kingdom from those to be punished (goats). Now all of creation will is purged and the Father becomes all in all.

Salvation – To whom much is given, much is expected… understanding God’s plan and what He did through His Son opens up salvation to all who will embrace it. However salvation can be found by all who choose a life defined by love and unselfishness; some through the conscious proclamation of what God did through His Son, and others through, possibly even an unconscious, adherence to unselfish love. The price was paid for any and all, by Jesus’ death but not knowing His
name does not lock you out from gaining eternal life.

 
Soul –

Summary
I believe our 'persona', our soul, is our will, it is the part of us that makes decisions. Our decisions are made based on a balance of our personality, emotions, and knowledge, but all of these change over time.

Personality and emotions work together to produce desire (the flesh) and unless there is some sort of overwhelming conflict presented by knowledge, desire gets it's way in all our decisions.

Faith is the trust that by our will we put into the 'seed of truth' placed in all men, by embracing this faith there is a rebirth and we are transformed as our minds are renewed (a life long process) from living for our desires, to living for God.

This seed of truth is present in all men by the grace of God it's power to provide salvation achieved through the death of God's Son. I believe this same process works even for some who have never heard of Jesus (although it is through Him).

The more knowledge one has of God and His process the easier it is to embrace faith in this seed of truth (the importance of the Gospel) but To whom much is given, much is expected… I believe God may find someone with no real knowledge of God and a harsh disposition more pleasing than another doing the exact same thing but they have an extensive knowledge of God and a loving personality.

That is why God is just, He makes judgments of us knowing what we knew and what the influences were when we made a particular decision. It is also why no man can boast (as if they've earned salvation), God by His grace provided the call, Jesus by His obedience paid the price, and all men are saved through faith. However God will judge all the works of man, for those of faith it is rewards for their works, for all others it will be to balance the books so all men are punished according to their deeds (so the hitlers of life pay the price for preying on others).

My opinion Wm

Heaven – Scriptures indicate that those given eternal life do not go to heaven for eternity but will remain on earth ruling and reigning with Christ.

[seekingtruth]

10 Commandments – Full obedience to the Law will earn you the right to expect eternal life but only Jesus has been able to accomplish it and in doing so He paid the price for all (He fulfilled the Law). Everyone else must rely on their rejection of self and love for others this is best accomplished through a better understanding of how God provided for all (being a “Christian”) but even an unconscious adherence to the law of love (the “sheep” who helped others) will gain many this gift of God.

 
Sin – is giving in to the desires of the flesh to gain some sort of pleasure, best defined as doing anything from selfishness with disregard to the impacts to others.

 
Love – Love fulfills the law it is putting others first prior to our desires, wants, and sometimes even our needs. Good works done for selfish reason gain nothing while God will reward all works of love.

 
Sabbath – Saturday is the Sabbath however scriptures indicate that the early Christians gathered on Sunday. The Sabbath observance was ordained by God as part of the covenant with Israel and is the only one of the ten commandments not covered by adhering to a lifestyle of love. So the Sabbath can be observed to honor God or realized as one day the same as others both please God (Romans 14:5).

 
Church – Commonly defined today as the building attended on Sunday with those in attendance being Christians. Scripture defines the church as those who are true believers being fitly placed together to create the body of Christ these attend many different denominations with some attending no service at all

What are some of the purposes of attending “church”; to prepare us for the work of the ministry, to establish sound doctrine within our lives and to have fellowship, encourage and pray one with another. I believe to a large extent that this is, (or at least can be) accomplished right here on Heaven.net.

On the other hand I also attend a local “church” for fellowship, corporate worship and as a witness. Not an acceptable option to some here but neither was Jesus hanging with the sinners but we should be open to the opportunities that local churches provide us to show forth truth to those who would be open to it (at least as long as they will tolerate us). Yes there will always be the “religious” around who are an hindrance to God but it is field ready for harvest with many hungry souls who are only ignorant (not hardened) as I was for 20 plus years of my life (and still am in some areas).

I look to Heaven.net as a source of “meat” in my search for truth and for my part I believe that there are many here who are my brothers and sisters in the Lord, none of which I am in full agreement with, but we share a hunger for truth, we just don't have all of it or in the same areas (God being infinite makes it hard to understand with finite minds).

However as we draw closer to the Father and His Son our differences do disappear.

When believers (consisting of all those born again), gather or assemble together we call it “church”. The word “church” as it is used in the NT is translated from a Greek word ekklasia meaning “those who assemble.” As God seems to define it, all believers within a definable region make a “church”, “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.” in these cases it was cities.

The purpose of “assembling” according to scripture is to gather with fellow believers for worship, to equip, to encourage, to correct, to share, and to have a common meal.

let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near.
(Heb. 10:24-25 NASB)

Did that mean that all believers met in one place? Not likely, some of these were very large cities. 23 If, therefore, the whole assembly may come together, to the same place. This scripture seems to indicate that it wasn't that common or maybe even possible for the whole assembly to come together in one place. This I believe supports the idea that they met in scattered groups, (at least some of them in homes “so does the church that meets at their house”)and as shown in Paul's writings, not all these groups believed exactly the same thing.

Today many have lost sight of the fact that “church” is not a building but an assembly of believers (two or more) and within my community there are several “assemblies” scattered about with “born again” attendees; worshipping, being encouraged and challenged (yet all the while “Studying to show themselves approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”). in other words not believing what's being taught without searching out the scriptures to see if it is so.

I believe that as God begins to pour out His Spirit (17And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;  ) that it will first be a wake up call to any of those within the various assemblies (churches) who will listen, followed I believe by a mass exodus of true believers (“come out of her my people”) from all “churches” having not embraced what God has said to the churches.

So my opinion is that we should gather together with fellow believers (that can be accomplished to some extent right here on Heven.net) and if there is not a “church” where you can achieve the assembling of ourselves then we need to find other believers of like faith. However while many are quoting “come out of her” as their reason for not attending any church, I'm not sure that that call has gone out yet and our “churches” are white unto harvest and we should be lights to those in dark places and “religion” is the darkest.

 
Tithing – The tithe was a commandment to the Israelites to provide for those ministering to them, and for those in need. It clearly required 10% of your increase, I question churches laying claim to something clearly spelled out for Levites, however we are told that God is pleased with cheerful givers, our offerings are best done by helping those who minister to us and to help those in need, going first to those of the household of faith. We will answer to God for how we used what He provided for us.

 
Jesus’ death – Jesus

Jesus’ death – Jesus died on what to us is Wed. evening near sunset. For the Israelites one day changed to another at sunset So Jesus was dead for 24 hours of Thursday, 24 hours of Friday, and 24 hours of Saturday, the resurrection occurred what for us would be Saturday evening near sunset. This had Jesus dead at the 3 days and 3 nights just as He had proclaimed as the only sign to be given. The next day (a Thursday) was a yearly Sabbath.

Worship

John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way

Romans 12:1
[ A Living Sacrifice ] Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.

Hebrews 9:1 Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary….10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

Revelation 15:4
Who will not fear you, Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come
and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”

Worship

I can only offer my opinion

An openness and requirement for truth within your soul that results in a realization of the character of God that brings about an emotional response of adoration felt in your spirit as it touches the Spirit of God.

[seekingtruth]

Stu,
There you have it, the finer point in what I believe about God. Sorry to everyone else for the long posts.

Wm

[Ed J]

Hi seekingtruth,

I suggest you make a thread with those posts here… (Click Here)

Forum » BELIEVERS PLACE » Member Profiles

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Stu]

seekingtruth

Just spectacular, and well reasoned in great detail. You have obviously developed this over a considerable time. A particular feature of your writing is the very small number of descriptions that only pretend to be explanations, you have actually explained quite a lot, leading logically from your assumptions to your conclusions.

Our worldviews all start with assumptions, on which we build our own versions of truth. My worldview is based on two assumptions (as far as I can tell) and they are that I exist, and that what you see is what you get (although I realise there are some things that will never be observed by us for physical reasons). From that I construct a worldview that demands evidence for things proposed, or rejects those things if the evidence does not exist or is not convincing. It also critically demands that the number of assumptions remains as low as possible, and that explanations that have fewer untestable assumptions should replace older views that demanded more unsupported ideas.

I'd say that in comparison, you have four assumptions to your worldview. They would be that you exist; that what you see is some of what you get; that there is a god and it is the only one; and that you can gain reliable information from scriptures about this one god.

Your god ideas flow pretty logically from those initial assumptions, and the difference between us (and it is a big one) is that these two further assumptions are just too many more for me. Even one additional assumption of any kind is a massive problem in building any really reliable knowledge about the universe, as far as I am concerned. The other aspect to it is that these extra assumptions of god and scripture appear not to be necessary for understanding existence in the way the first two are. It is not possible to construct any kind of meaning without the first two, but it is possible without your extra two, regardless of whether ignoring god and scripture gives you a significant understanding of meaning or not.

I will endeavour to refer to this in any future question of what I should be taking as your god belief.

I always claim that scientists would agree on scientific theories like natural selection or the atomic theory or relativity to, say better than a 98% correlation of concepts. I then go on to claim that there are no two christians in the world who agree on their god concept, so we should expect 2 billion pages like this one, one for each christian (not that 90% of them would be as well thought-out as yours).

What would be interesting though would be to find out how many other christians would agree to “within 98%” with what you have recorded here, in thinking of their own god concepts.

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 06 2011,18:38)

seekingtruth Just spectacular, and well reasoned in great detail.  You have obviously developed this over a considerable time.  A particular feature of your writing is the very small number of descriptions that only pretend to be explanations, you have actually explained quite a lot, leading logically from your assumptions to your conclusions. Our worldviews all start with assumptions, on which we build our own versions of truth.  My worldview is based on two assumptions (as far as I can tell) and they are that I exist, and that what you see is what you get (although I realise there are some things that will never be observed by us for physical reasons).  From that I construct a worldview that demands evidence for things proposed, or rejects those things if the evidence does not exist or is not convincing.  It also critically demands that the number of assumptions remains as low as possible, and that explanations that have fewer untestable assumptions should replace older views that demanded more unsupported ideas. I'd say that in comparison, you have four assumptions to your worldview.  They would be that you exist; that what you see is some of what you get; that there is a god and it is the only one; and that you can gain reliable information from scriptures about this one god. Your god ideas flow pretty logically from those initial assumptions, and the difference between us (and it is a big one) is that these two further assumptions are just too many more for me.  Even one additional assumption of any kind is a massive problem in building any really reliable knowledge about the universe, as far as I am concerned.  The other aspect to it is that these extra assumptions of god and scripture appear not to be necessary for understanding existence in the way the first two are.  It is not possible to construct any kind of meaning without the first two, but it is possible without your extra two, regardless of whether ignoring god and scripture gives you a significant understanding of meaning or not. I will endeavour to refer to this in any future question of what I should be taking as your god belief. I always claim that scientists would agree on scientific theories like natural selection or the atomic theory or relativity to, say better than a 98% correlation of concepts.  I then go on to claim that there are no two christians in the world who agree on their god concept, so we should expect 2 billion pages like this one, one for each christian (not that 90% of them would be as well thought-out as yours). What would be interesting though would be to find out how many other christians would agree to “within 98%” with what you have recorded here, in thinking of their own god concepts. Stuart

You are very sneaky and insincere, You have no way of knowing what scientist as a whole think in a broad way. There would be no doubt that 100% of Christians believe that God does exist so since you like playing the percentage game that should mean something to you. 100% of Christians also believe that God created man and the Universe.

Your worldview is based on more than two assumptions because you assume that something that cannot be proven “to you” is presumed not to exist.

You also assume that no manner of evidence can be evidence of God since if you can discover the way something works or that something “is” you will move it out of the realm of evidence of God.

I'm pretty sure you were trying to be honest but your honesty is akin to the poker player wherein it is the only game where being dishonest is honestly part of the game.

[Stu]

Quote

You are very sneaky and insincere, You have no way of knowing what scientist as a whole think in a broad way.

I promise you I am being both sincere and open. I have changed by mind about the percentage though. It is 4% of professional scientists (almost none of them biologists) who have made a prior commitment to things that are not true, adopting a biblical literalist view, so I would be looking at more like 96% agreement, not 98%. I am not claiming anything more than my own anecdotal suggestion here, although I would suggest that if you interviewed all the professors of biology in the UK (not the US, you have more than your fair share of nutcases and of things you call universities that are nothing more than institutions that demand commitment to a religious fantasy story before you even start working / studying there) and you asked each to describe evolution by natural selection to you, the accounts would correlate point for point to a rate of better than 96%. Even the religiously deluded ones would be able to tell you what the concepts are. I’ll have a look round when I get time and see if there is any existing work on this question.

Quote

There would be no doubt that 100% of Christians believe that God does exist so since you like playing the percentage game that should mean something to you.

13% of Anglican vicars in the UK do not believe that god “exists”, although they would still mostly call themselves Christian.

Quote

100% of Christians also believe that God created man and the Universe.

Notwithstanding those like the vicars who claim that god did not create the universe but still claim to be Christian, you seem to be forgetting about “theistic evolution” beliefs. Most of the mainstream protestant denominations, and Roman Catholicism accept that humans arose by a process of evolution by natural selection, which would require a distinctly different set of beliefs from evangelical or fundamentalist beliefs. I don’t think you are going to achieve anything like 96% agreement on the question of whether god literally created humans or just created the conditions by which humans would eventually emerge. I think this last view is barmy given that humans were never guaranteed to emerge from an evolution process, and we were close to extinction at more than one point in the past. Perhaps more than 96% of christians would agree that some divine process led to the appearance of humans, but it will not be anything like the list of very specifically agreed concepts from the biologists.
As for the universe, I think if you asked for the details you would draw more of a blank stare from a majority of christians.
What about those tenets that really define christianity? Resurrection? Virgin birth? The trinity? While scientists would carry on agreeing on a wide range of topics to a remarkable degree of similarity, things will really start to fall apart once you start quizzing christians on the more ludicrous beliefs that are not just generic theist positions like the ones you suggested.

Quote

Your worldview is based on more than two assumptions because you assume that something that cannot be proven “to you” is presumed not to exist.

No I don’t. In fact, my worldview actually says that you cannot prove the non-existence of anything.

Quote

You also assume that no manner of evidence can be evidence of God since if you can discover the way something works or that something “is” you will move it out of the realm of evidence of God.

It is not me promoting any god concept. It is those who believe in the gods that refuse to make them testable, not those who do not believe in them. Give me a falsifiable claim for your god and I will happily accept there could be evidence for it. Can you?

Quote

I'm pretty sure you were trying to be honest but your honesty is akin to the poker player wherein it is the only game where being dishonest is honestly part of the game.

I have made falsifiable claims, and have clarified some of them for you too. You do not have to believe a word I say because you can test these claims for yourself, at least in principle. I will be corrected by evidence. How is that dishonest?

Stuart

[princess]

i personally believe Stuart you don't like anyone or anything, excluding your family (meaning your immediate) and your cat.

Quote

13% of Anglican vicars in the UK do not believe that god “exists”, although they would still mostly call themselves Christian.

i cannot understand this Stuart, makes no sense.

one point in question is that,
you find fault in every faith or religion or the belief of god,
bearing in mind that i have study a bit these issues myself,
however, how would anyone be able to prove that divinity, purity exsit.
there can be no physical evidence shown to you that you will conter act with science.

what would it take for you to believe that there are spiritual matters at hand,
that all religious text are not wrong, that belief in a greater good is alive and well.

what is so wrong with finding truth in relgious text,
do you think every religious person believe the entirety of their religions text.

Stuart, can you at least read in other areas of the forum, if so, why do you not comment on them here. i so would enjoy to hear your response to some of the post made.

love to you Stuart

[Stu]

Thanks for your reply. Without wishing to upset individuals, I really do think that the use of religious texts as a way of deciding what is going on in the universe, and perhaps being conned by morally bankrupt ideas like vicarious removal of your responsibility to a human sacrifice (which then owns you) and cheques made out to eternity that you are meant to cash at a bank that cannot be shown to exist is just limp thinking.

None of us was born believing any of this, we were all atheists then. There are no harmful effects to be had by ignoring christianity, except the actually real threats invented by some of those who do believe it. Christianity has all the hallmarks of all the other god belief systems invented by humans over countless centuries: the Abrahamic ones are particularly petty and small-minded compared, say to Buddhism or even the gods of the ancient classical world.

Just imagine if Constantine had not adopted this belief system, and Mohammad had been killed in battle very early on in his terrorising campaign in Arabia. I think there is a chance a man-god myth like christianity would have developed again in the manner of the Mesopotamian and Roman systems from which ancient Jews developed their Jesus story, but if it hadn't then would the classical gods have just become more and more bywords for real effects, by Jupiter?

Might an astronomer have been able to hope that Diana would ensure a clear sky so he could observe the solar eclipse without really having to earnestly believe that there was any such being that could have any such effect?

Might people today be able to invoke the mythological idea of a god – Bacchus – that could be the theme and focus of people enjoying themselves socially?

By contrast the Judeo-christian god is humourless, murderous and opposed to human endeavour. It makes demands of compulsory love on its believers that the Roman gods never did!

Just imagine the Middle East today if that were our history. Think of how different North Africa would be and what a difference there would have been in the history of Northern Ireland. Christianity has hijacked minds for the great profit of some and the great misery of others for the last couple of millennia. I'm not saying that humans would not have persecuted one another as an expression of their tribal and competitive nature but without the Abrahamic religions there would have been one fewer label for ones enemies, importantly a label that cannot be tested for validity.

The one person perhaps we should think of is the historical Jesus. I'm sure he was a decent fellow, and I know we cannot know anything of what he really did or said, but what nasty myths have been imposed on him and violent acts dedicated to him since his death.

What an unfortunate distraction this religion is for an otherwise astonishing product of natural selection: the human brain.

Stuart

[princess]

Quote

None of us was born believing any of this, we were all atheists then

i disagree, because in our youth we believe that anything is possible. to have faith as a child is not harmful, nor is it unimaginable.

if you want to grow up and be one of those types that believe in nothing, then be one. however i will continue to know each day is a blessing.

where ever you have been Stuart as of late, it is not a good place, you have brought or picked up more bitterness, whatever is feeding your soul is not pure.  

it matters none to me if you choose not to believe in any good thing from religious text, it shows you are no different from the rest.

at one time i ask that you did not become a bore as the others, at this time you are the most boring Stuart i have spoken with, you have shown no growth, nor understanding.

such a waste of a good friendship.

[Stu]

Quote (princess @ Jan. 08 2011,08:29)

Quote None of us was born believing any of this, we were all atheists then i disagree, because in our youth we believe that anything is possible. to have faith as a child is not harmful, nor is it unimaginable. if you want to grow up and be one of those types that believe in nothing, then be one. however i will continue to know each day is a blessing. where ever you have been Stuart as of late, it is not a good place, you have brought or picked up more bitterness, whatever is feeding your soul is not pure.   it matters none to me if you choose not to believe in any good thing from religious text, it shows you are no different from the rest. at one time i ask that you did not become a bore as the others, at this time you are the most boring Stuart i have spoken with, you have shown no growth, nor understanding. such a waste of a good friendship.

You were not born knowing that humans believe in gods, and you could not possibly have understood the ethical implications of believing that a man died and then walked again because you are inherently bad, before the age of 12 or so. Children are not capable of that kind of abstract thought. You were born in the same state as an atheist.

Probably it is an important part of a child's development that they engage with ideas of imaginary people, and I understand there are several aspects of normal development that work that way. How is it that though so many adults feel unable to let go of the imaginary friends of their youth, and how is it that some take them on newly in adulthood? Maybe it's not to do with development so much as perhaps a lack of development, or more likely other psychological factors. Should any of this make adult believers the subject of derision? Of course not, but no one should believe the “personal experience of god” argument for what is actually an imagined entity.

Should children be taught that it is a virtue to believe things, on faith and without evidence? You sow what you reap on that score. You get people avoiding immunising their children against diseases that used to be commonplace killers because of some rumour of side effects that has no basis in actual evidence. You have others living as if there is some everlasting life that is more important than the life they know they have, and some of them decide to go out in a blaze of glory, strapped into plastic explosives, on their way to a place that does not exist to meet a friend that was only ever imaginary. You put those children at risk if their beliefs are that homosexuality is wrong and yet it turns out that they discover they are gay, not because there is any evidence whatever that there is anything wrong with being gay, but because their faith requires that idea. So, I'd say no, it should be a crime to sell cigarettes to children, supply them with alcohol and teach them about faith, for pretty much the same set of reasons.

I don't know what you mean about believing in nothing. What do you mean?

Far from me not believing any good thing in a religious text, I don't think necessarily such a thing exists. You could throw away the NT, Koran and Torah, and I'd argue you could only be better off.

As for growth and increased understanding, I feel I have benefited in that way by interacting with people here. I have not converted, if that was your goal. Was it? What should I think of that?!

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 08 2011,15:38)

Quote (princess @ Jan. 08 2011,08:29) Quote None of us was born believing any of this, we were all atheists then i disagree, because in our youth we believe that anything is possible. to have faith as a child is not harmful, nor is it unimaginable. if you want to grow up and be one of those types that believe in nothing, then be one. however i will continue to know each day is a blessing. where ever you have been Stuart as of late, it is not a good place, you have brought or picked up more bitterness, whatever is feeding your soul is not pure.   it matters none to me if you choose not to believe in any good thing from religious text, it shows you are no different from the rest. at one time i ask that you did not become a bore as the others, at this time you are the most boring Stuart i have spoken with, you have shown no growth, nor understanding. such a waste of a good friendship. You were not born knowing that humans believe in gods, and you could not possibly have understood the ethical implications of believing that a man died and then walked again because you are inherently bad, before the age of 12 or so.  Children are not capable of that kind of abstract thought.  You were born in the same state as an atheist.   Probably it is an important part of a child's development that they engage with ideas of imaginary people, and I understand there are several aspects of normal development that work that way.  How is it that though so many adults feel unable to let go of the imaginary friends of their youth, and how is it that some take them on newly in adulthood?  Maybe it's not to do with development so much as perhaps a lack of development, or more likely other psychological factors.  Should any of this make adult believers the subject of derision?  Of course not, but no one should believe the “personal experience of god” argument for what is actually an imagined entity. Should children be taught that it is a virtue to believe things, on faith and without evidence?  You sow what you reap on that score.  You get people avoiding immunising their children against diseases that used to be commonplace killers because of some rumour of side effects that has no basis in actual evidence.  You have others living as if there is some everlasting life that is more important than the life they know they have, and some of them decide to go out in a blaze of glory, strapped into plastic explosives, on their way to a place that does not exist to meet a friend that was only ever imaginary.  You put those children at risk if their beliefs are that homosexuality is wrong and yet it turns out that they discover they are gay, not because there is any evidence whatever that there is anything wrong with being gay, but because their faith requires that idea.  So, I'd say no, it should be a crime to sell cigarettes to children, supply them with alcohol and teach them about faith, for pretty much the same set of reasons. I don't know what you mean about believing in nothing.  What do you mean? Far from me not believing any good thing in a religious text, I don't think necessarily such a thing exists.  You could throw away the NT, Koran and Torah, and I'd argue you could only be better off. As for growth and increased understanding, I feel I have benefited in that way by interacting with people here.  I have not converted, if that was your goal. Was it?  What should I think of that?! Stuart

Your arguments is like someone with one of their primary senses missing and then seriously arguing that that sense simply is imaginary and cannot exist. You can't hear? then neither can anyone else. You can't see? Then neither can anyone else.

You see my point? I actually can feel compassion for your position suddenly at least from in this context because it can be a great anguish not being able to sense what others sense.

Imagine someone telling you about the great joy of a love relationship and you just happen to be one of those people labled anti-social or a sociopath you could then try to engage in a love relationship but condemned to fell absolutely nothing inside and even if someone told you that you were cold and callous it wouldn't even mean anything hence to you love simply wouldn't exist and there would be no convincing you and the sad part is that you wouldn't able to be convinced because you wouldn't be able to feel or relate to the someone attempting to convince you.

God Bless You!

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 10 2011,16:53)

Your arguments is like someone with one of their primary senses missing and then seriously arguing that that sense simply is imaginary and cannot exist. You can't hear? then neither can anyone else. You can't see? Then neither can anyone else. You see my point? I actually can feel compassion for your position suddenly at least from in this context because it can be a great anguish not being able to sense what others sense. Imagine someone telling you about the great joy of a love relationship and you just happen to be one of those people labled anti-social or a sociopath you could then try to engage in a love relationship but condemned to fell absolutely nothing inside and even if someone told you that you were cold and callous it wouldn't even mean anything hence to you love simply wouldn't exist and there would be no convincing you and the sad part is that you wouldn't able to be convinced because you wouldn't be able to feel or relate to the someone attempting to convince you.

The man in the mental hospital is a carrot, and he feels sorry that you do not have the senses required to see that indeed he is a carrot, and harbours a feeling of frustration that he appears unable to convince you of this fact.

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 11 2011,08:27)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 10 2011,16:53) Your arguments is like someone with one of their primary senses missing and then seriously arguing that that sense simply is imaginary and cannot exist. You can't hear? then neither can anyone else. You can't see? Then neither can anyone else. You see my point? I actually can feel compassion for your position suddenly at least from in this context because it can be a great anguish not being able to sense what others sense. Imagine someone telling you about the great joy of a love relationship and you just happen to be one of those people labled anti-social or a sociopath you could then try to engage in a love relationship but condemned to fell absolutely nothing inside and even if someone told you that you were cold and callous it wouldn't even mean anything hence to you love simply wouldn't exist and there would be no convincing you and the sad part is that you wouldn't able to be convinced because you wouldn't be able to feel or relate to the someone attempting to convince you. The man in the mental hospital is a carrot, and he feels sorry that you do not have the senses required to see that indeed he is a carrot, and harbours a feeling of frustration that he appears unable to convince you of this fact. Stuart

You will not see any such thing, mental patients do not try to convince others about external self realizations. You will never show me an example of a mentally insane person trying to pursue or convince someone else what they are.

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2011,14:53)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 11 2011,08:27) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 10 2011,16:53) Your arguments is like someone with one of their primary senses missing and then seriously arguing that that sense simply is imaginary and cannot exist. You can't hear? then neither can anyone else. You can't see? Then neither can anyone else. You see my point? I actually can feel compassion for your position suddenly at least from in this context because it can be a great anguish not being able to sense what others sense. Imagine someone telling you about the great joy of a love relationship and you just happen to be one of those people labled anti-social or a sociopath you could then try to engage in a love relationship but condemned to fell absolutely nothing inside and even if someone told you that you were cold and callous it wouldn't even mean anything hence to you love simply wouldn't exist and there would be no convincing you and the sad part is that you wouldn't able to be convinced because you wouldn't be able to feel or relate to the someone attempting to convince you. The man in the mental hospital is a carrot, and he feels sorry that you do not have the senses required to see that indeed he is a carrot, and harbours a feeling of frustration that he appears unable to convince you of this fact. Stuart You will not see any such thing, mental patients do not try to convince others about external self realizations. You will never show me an example of a mentally insane person trying to pursue or convince someone else what they are.

This one did.

Stuart

[princess]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 11 2011,08:27)

'The man in the mental hospital is a carrot, and he feels sorry that you do not have the senses required to see that indeed he is a carrot, and harbours a feeling of frustration that he appears unable to convince you of this fact.' Stuart

to habor fustration means he really does not believe he is a carrot, just pretending to see how many people he can fool thinking that he is a carrot, and when someone does not believe him, his anger rises due to he is not as smart as he thought he was, and must come up with another way to manipulate the other person to believing he is a carrot.
by placing his head in the sand (because everyone knows that carrots grow faster when sand is added to the soil) he may just convince the other he is a carrot.

however he could just convince the other he is a fruit and not know it……..

[Author]

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