Attn anti-trinitarians: please explain these:

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,18:19)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2009,18:02) Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,17:48) Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,17:18) Lightenup said: Quote Thinker and WJ, And I thought that you guys say that the “word” submitted to the Father and became a servant.  You say that it was an “eternal word” that existed before it became flesh. But that would make no sense since a word cannot submit or not submit, it is just an expression of a thought. BTW, the Son declared the Father to be His God while in the flesh and while He was exalted and given the name above all names.  See Rev. 3:12. Kathi Kathi, Where have you been? When Paladin first arrived here Keith and I defended the Word as a Personal being. Paladin was saying that the Word was impersonal or an “it” like Gene. Now you are saying the same thing. When you say that the word cannot submit “itself” you are repeating the ancient Gnostic heresy. John said that the Word became flesh and we beheld HIS glory. Why isn't this good enough for you? thinker Thinker, The word “word” used in John 1:1 is an it, what the word represents is a personal being. There is the difference.  Words are things not persons.  Words can represent persons but they are not the person they represent.    The “word” is not a title in John 1:1.  The “Word of God ” is a title but that is not found in John 1:1. IMO There, I just wrote several words that have meaning and represent my thoughts. Now, I will write words also but this time without meaning: title the word difference not what represents are persons the found I used some of the same words in each instance.  Words are just words, they are just “its.”   What does the “word” mean?  What does the word represent? The whole idea about “eternal word” is nonsense.  What the word “word” represents is what is with God and what the word in the beginning represents is what was God. IMO Kathi Hi Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,17:48) What does the “word” mean?  What does the word represent? The whole idea about “eternal word” is nonsense.  What the word “word” represents is what is with God and what the word in the beginning represents is what was God. IMO Kathi Why don't you tell the Apostle John that, for he is the One that wrote it didnt he? So much for the henotheistic faith that says there is more than “One True God”. John wrote “And God was the Word”. Meaning the person of Jesus before his coming in the flesh in John 1:14. Blessings WJ Keith, Then say the person of Jesus was in the beginning, the person of Jesus was with God, the person of Jesus was God.  Say that the pre-existent Jesus was the person of Jesus.  Regarding the word “word,” it represents a person.  Can you see that???  “It” represents a person.  The person is a “who” and not and “it.”  The person is not an “it.”  It (the word “word”) represents a person.  So when I call the word “word” an it that is because a word is a thing.  The word “word” is not a living thing, it represents a living person.IMO Who was the person of Jesus…I say it was the son of GOD, you say it was the word.  You seem to indicate a mystical word that always existed.  An Eternal Word…if that isn't mystical I don't know what is.  If the word represents an living person that was in the beginning then why do you refer often of the “eternal word” bit?  You ask John why he didn't just write eternal word if that is what you think. The term “eternal word” is not a Biblical term as far as I have seen. Kathi

Hi Kathi

Then John was Mystical, is that what you are saying?

John clarifys who the Word is after he comes in the flesh.

There is no Son or Begotten God found in John 1:1.

And if it were true what you are saying then that still does not change a thing because John makes no difference in his use of the word “Theos”.

“And the Word was God”. If the Word (Now Jesus by name) was God then the now Jesus by name is and was eternal, and in very nature GOD! Your problem is you do not see that Jesus is the God of the OT that revealed himself as YHWH!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,18:23)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2009,18:06) Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,18:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2009,17:56) Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,17:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2009,16:31) Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,13:17) Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,13:06) WorshipingJesus said to Kathi: Quote Hi Kathi So you think that invalidates John 1:1-3? Your argument is a red herring and leaves out the fact that Jesus who was in very nature God left his place of Glory and submitted to the Father by becoming a servant through taking on the likeness of sinful flesh and being found in fashion as a man declared the Father to be his God. Phil 2 WJ, Yes! Philippians 2 is the key to understanding. thinker Thinker and WJ, And I thought that you guys say that the “word” submitted to the Father and became a servant.  You say that it was an “eternal word” that existed before it became flesh. But that would make no sense since a word cannot submit or not submit, it is just an expression of a thought. BTW, the Son declared the Father to be His God while in the flesh and while He was exalted and given the name above all names.  See Rev. 3:12. Kathi Hi LU Please stop with the misrepresentations. When has Jack or myself ever refered to the Word as it? You know better than this! Jesus is the “Word that was with God and was God” and God is not an it! Read Phil 2 with an open mind! He was in very nature God, just as the Father is in very nature God! Notice he was not in very nature a begotten god or a begotten son. Blessings WJ Keith, By making what was meant to be an “it”, you have made it into a god. In the above sentence I have written 16 words.  That is what a word is, or do you see 16 gods? You worship a word.  I worship what is meant by the word. Kathi Kathi Do the words “And God was the Word” mean that the word is an it? Your false accusations an misrepresentation of me and Jack is just a lame attempt by you to destract from the truth that stares you in the face. You worship something less than God, and that is the discription of “idolatry”. Blessings WJ Keith, You are having a bad day, maybe you should take a break.  I'm sorry something is bothering you. BTW in what verse and in what translation do you find “And God was the Word?” Kathi Hi Kathi No it seems that you had the bad day by misrepresenting me and Jack. The Litteral translation of John 1:1c is “God was the Word”. WJ Keith, You have not shown me one translation where your scholars have translated it that way…don't you think there is a reason for that?  Or are you above the scholars?

Hi Kathi\

It is the scholars that say that the litteral translation of John 1:1 is “God was the Word”.

But what is the difference Kathi?

“And the Word was God”.

You are the one that has to read into it more than what it says!

WJ

[Cindy]

Quote (thethinker @ June 19 2009,10:43)

To My Anti-trinitarian friends, Please explain the following passages from the KJV. Genesis 1:26,27: “And ELOHIM said, Let US make man in OUR image….” Genesis 3:22 : “And YHWH ELOHIM said, Behold, the man has become as one of US, to know good and evil….” Genesis 11:6-7: “And YHWH said, Behold, the people are one, and they have all one language….Let US go down and confuse their language….” *In Genesis 1:26 ELOHIM refers to Himself as “US.” *In Genesis 3:22 YHWH ELOHIM refers to Himself as “US.” *In Genesis 11:6-7 YHWH refers to Himself as “US.” Whether it is Elohim, YHWH Elohim, or simply YHWH we see that God is a plural entity. Anyone care to explain? thinker

thinker

What is so difficult to understand about the “us”?
The Father created all things through his son, including man, Col. 1:16, Father and son is “us”.

Georg

[SEEKING]

Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,14:48)

Seeking, But in the meantime…. thinker

I am persuaded that most, if not all, of us desire to follow Jesus and become like Him to the best of our understanding.

Seeking

[KangarooJack]

Quote (SEEKING @ June 27 2009,03:36)

Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,14:48) Seeking, But in the meantime…. thinker I am persuaded that most, if not all, of us desire to follow Jesus and become like Him to the best of our understanding. Seeking

Amen brother! I miserably fail though  

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Irene said:

Quote

thinker What is so difficult to understand about the “us”? The Father created all things through his son, including man, Col. 1:16, Father and son is “us”.

Irene,
I have explained it before. Elohim said “Let US create man in OUR image.” The reference to “OUR image” is the image of God. Please read the text carefully.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2009,10:26)

Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,18:10) WorshippingJesus said to Kathi: Quote Hi Kathi Do you see Jesus name or any reference to the Son in Proverbs 8? Ambiguous territory! In Proverbs 8 wisdom is personified in the feminine gender (vs.1). The book was written in poetic form and it simply means that God in His wisdom created all things. thinker Thinker, Often in poetry words represent other things or persons. Many can see that wisdom might be representing the Son of God even Matthew Henry.

Kathi,
Or wisdom may represent an attribute of God. It is not sound hermeneutically to read poetry in John's prologue.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Lightenup said to WJ:

Quote

Keith, Wisdom is a female because the gender of the word “wisdom” is female…is that your argument?  With that logic then Jesus can't be eternal life because eternal life is female in gender. You know that the gender of words do not mean they represent things of only the same gender. Words that are masculine in gender do not tell us that they can only apply to males and visa versa.  I know you know this. Good grief Keith…you have stooped!!! Pick yourself up man!

No Kathi! It is you who have “stooped.” You are super imposing Hebrew poetry into John's prologue. You totally misunderstand Proverbs 8. Read on into chapter 9 and you will see that wisdom is being depicted as a righteous woman,

Quote

Wisdom has built her house, she has hewn out her seven pillars; she has slaughtered her meat, she has mixed her wine, she has also furnished her table. She has sent out her maidens, She cries out from the highest places of the city…. (9:1-3)

Then she is contrasted with a foolish woman (13-18)

Proverbs 8-9 have nothing to do with John's prologue.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Quote (thethinker @ June 27 2009,04:35)

Irene said: Quote thinker What is so difficult to understand about the “us”? The Father created all things through his son, including man, Col. 1:16, Father and son is “us”. Irene, I have explained it before. Elohim said “Let US create man in OUR image.” The reference to “OUR image” is the image of God. Please read the text carefully. thinker

Hi TT,
You you think God was talking to themselves?

[Cindy]

Quote (thethinker @ June 27 2009,04:35)

Irene said: Quote thinker What is so difficult to understand about the “us”? The Father created all things through his son, including man, Col. 1:16, Father and son is “us”. Irene, I have explained it before. Elohim said “Let US create man in OUR image.” The reference to “OUR image” is the image of God. Please read the text carefully. thinker

thinker

Are you saying that God looks like us then? or do we look like God?

Georg

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Cindy @ June 27 2009,13:50)

Quote (thethinker @ June 27 2009,04:35) Irene said: Quote thinker What is so difficult to understand about the “us”? The Father created all things through his son, including man, Col. 1:16, Father and son is “us”. Irene, I have explained it before. Elohim said “Let US create man in OUR image.” The reference to “OUR image” is the image of God. Please read the text carefully. thinker thinker Are you saying that God looks like us then? or do we look like God? Georg

Georg,
I am saying that  angels cannot be included in the “US” statement. God said “Let US make man in OUR image.” This is the image of God and not of angels. Therfore, God is a trinity.

thinker

[Cindy]

thinker

Explain to me.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Who is this speaking off?

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And who is this speaking off?

Georg

[Cindy]

thinker

I didn't want you to miss this.

Georg

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Cindy @ June 26 2009,22:15)

thinker Explain to me. Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Who is this speaking off? Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   And who is this speaking off? Georg

Hi George

That is right. Jesus is the “Image of the invisible God” and if your image of the invisible God is less than God then you have a false image of God!

Thinker is right.

The us is “Our Image” meaning the Father and the Word which is God!

For it is by him that all things were made and without him nothing was made that was made!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Say that again.
So if an image is less that what it images then it is a false image?

But you speak of an image, not the original?

[Cindy]

Quote (thethinker @ June 27 2009,14:05)

Quote (Cindy @ June 27 2009,13:50) Quote (thethinker @ June 27 2009,04:35) Irene said: Quote thinker What is so difficult to understand about the “us”? The Father created all things through his son, including man, Col. 1:16, Father and son is “us”. Irene, I have explained it before. Elohim said “Let US create man in OUR image.” The reference to “OUR image” is the image of God. Please read the text carefully. thinker thinker Are you saying that God looks like us then? or do we look like God? Georg Georg, I am saying that  angels cannot be included in the “US” statement. God said “Let US make man in OUR image.” This is the image of God and not of angels. Therfore, God is a trinity. thinker

thinker

The “US” refers to the Father and Son, they did the creating.
How do you get the angels in on this?
Show me a scripture that says, “God the Holy Spirit, or “God the Son” for that matter.

Georg

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