Attn anti-trinitarians: please explain these:

[KangarooJack]

Lightenup said:

Quote

Thinker and WJ, And I thought that you guys say that the “word” submitted to the Father and became a servant.  You say that it was an “eternal word” that existed before it became flesh. But that would make no sense since a word cannot submit or not submit, it is just an expression of a thought. BTW, the Son declared the Father to be His God while in the flesh and while He was exalted and given the name above all names.  See Rev. 3:12. Kathi

Kathi,
Where have you been? When Paladin first arrived here Keith and I defended the Word as a Personal being. Paladin was saying that the Word was impersonal or an “it” like Gene. Now you are saying the same thing. When you say that the word cannot submit “itself” you are repeating the ancient Gnostic heresy.

John said that the Word became flesh and we beheld HIS glory. Why isn't this good enough for you?

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
If you read NIV you might think so because the NIV added the word JESUS.
But than name does not appear in any manuscript.

[Cindy]

W.J. I do believe that John 1:1 is the Word that was with God. However I do not believe that He always existed.
Col. 1:15 says that He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Rev. 3:14 …” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
Proverbs 8:22-28
verse 22 ” The LORD possessed Me at the beginning of His ways. Before His works of old.

verse 23 I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning before there ever was an earth.

verse 24 When there was no depths, I WAS BROUGHT FORTH, when there where no fountains abounding with water.

verse 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I WAS BROUGHT FORTH.

verse 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primeval dust of the world.

verse 27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep.

verse 28 When He established the clouds above, when He strengthen the fountains of the deep.

On this you should see that the Word, who became Jesus, had a beginning.

Peace and Love Irene

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2009,08:58)

Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,15:47) WorshippingJesus said to Kathi: Quote Please try real hard not to read into the scriptures with your Henotheistic glasses on please. “Henotheism Henotheists recognize a single deity, and view other Gods and Goddesses as manifestations or aspects of that supreme God.  They choose one aspect to worship without denying the existence of other aspects or forms of the Supreme Being.  Many Hindu and Neopagan traditions are henotheistic. “Hén” is the Greek word for 'one'.  The term was coined in 1860 by (Friedrich) Max Müller (1823-1900), professor of comparative philology at Oxford.” http://www.ladywindsong.com/craft/vocab.html#heno Kathi's treatment of the word “begotten” makes Christ “another aspect or form of the Supreme Being.” thinker Thinker, FYI, you supply a link to a new age website.  Is that your source for truth these days?  You will notice that the trinity fits nicely with the henotheism definition. Henotheism Henotheists recognize a single deity, and view other Gods and Goddesses as manifestations or aspects of that supreme God.  They choose one aspect to worship without denying the existence of other aspects or forms of the Supreme Being.  Many Hindu and Neopagan traditions are henotheistic. “Hén” is the Greek word for 'one'.  The term was coined in 1860 by (Friedrich) Max Müller (1823-1900), professor of comparative philology at Oxford. Monotheism In monotheism, there is only one personality of God.  Some monotheistic gods, such as Allah and Yahweh, have various temperaments and moods, but they are nevertheless considered one being.  A notable exception to this is the Three-in-One doctrine of Christianity; Father, Son (Jesus) and Spirit are aspects of God with differing purposes in creation, life management, and judgement. Kathi

No Kathi,
Trinitarianism does NOT infer Henotheism. Trinitarianism teaches that Christ existed in THE FORM OF GOD. You have revealed that you don't really know what trinitarianism is. Christ is NOT another form of God. I have never inferred this nor Keith nor Trinitarianism.

Now to the point. I said that your view of “begotten” makes Christ “another aspect or form of the Supreme Being.”

True or false?

thinker

[SEEKING]

Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,12:10)

Seeking, Revelation 22 says that the water of life proceeds from the throne of God and of the Lamb. I see one Kingship in two persons reigning SIMULTANEOUSLY and not in succession as Bush and Obama. I see a plural unity. If you don't that 's fine with me. How have you been dude? I hope ill health did not keep you away. thinker

Thinker,

Corinthians speaks of a temporary reign of Jesus –

Co 15:24  Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
1Co 15:25  For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26  The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27  For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.

so I do not see a SIMULTANEOUS reign.

Health is fine. Been busy with the church which is a relatively new non-demoninational group. Also have been reading the posts with interest. The Bible definately opens itself to varied understandings and much discussion.

I am persuaded that most, if not all, of us desire to follow Jesus and become like Him to the best of our understanding.

Seeking

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Cindy @ June 25 2009,17:28)

W.J.  I do believe that John 1:1 is the Word that was with God.  However I do not believe that He always existed.   Col. 1:15 says that He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Rev. 3:14 …” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” Proverbs 8:22-28 verse 22 ” The LORD possessed Me at the beginning of His ways. Before His works of old. verse 23  I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning before there ever was an earth. verse 24  When there was no depths, I WAS BROUGHT FORTH, when there where no fountains abounding with water. verse 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I WAS BROUGHT FORTH. verse 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primeval dust of the world. verse 27  When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep. verse 28 When He established the clouds above, when He strengthen the fountains of the deep. On this you should see that the Word, who became Jesus, had a beginning. Peace and Love Irene

Hi Cindy

Jesus is not the “wisdom personified” unless he is female in gender.

You are standing on ambiguous territory!

Blessings WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,17:18)

Lightenup said: Quote Thinker and WJ, And I thought that you guys say that the “word” submitted to the Father and became a servant.  You say that it was an “eternal word” that existed before it became flesh. But that would make no sense since a word cannot submit or not submit, it is just an expression of a thought. BTW, the Son declared the Father to be His God while in the flesh and while He was exalted and given the name above all names.  See Rev. 3:12. Kathi Kathi, Where have you been? When Paladin first arrived here Keith and I defended the Word as a Personal being. Paladin was saying that the Word was impersonal or an “it” like Gene. Now you are saying the same thing. When you say that the word cannot submit “itself” you are repeating the ancient Gnostic heresy. John said that the Word became flesh and we beheld HIS glory. Why isn't this good enough for you? thinker

Thinker,
The word “word” used in John 1:1 is an it, what the word represents is a personal being. There is the difference. Words are things not persons. Words can represent persons but they are not the person they represent. The “word” is not a title in John 1:1. The “Word of God ” is a title but that is not found in John 1:1. IMO

There, I just wrote several words that have meaning and represent my thoughts.

Now, I will write words also but this time without meaning:
title the word difference not what represents are persons the found

I used some of the same words in each instance. Words are just words, they are just “its.”

What does the “word” mean? What does the word represent? The whole idea about “eternal word” is nonsense. What the word “word” represents is what is with God and what the word in the beginning represents is what was God. IMO

Kathi

[KangarooJack]

Quote (SEEKING @ June 26 2009,09:37)

Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,12:10) Seeking, Revelation 22 says that the water of life proceeds from the throne of God and of the Lamb. I see one Kingship in two persons reigning SIMULTANEOUSLY and not in succession as Bush and Obama. I see a plural unity. If you don't that 's fine with me. How have you been dude? I hope ill health did not keep you away. thinker Thinker, Corinthians speaks of a temporary reign of Jesus – Co 15:24  Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 1Co 15:25  For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 1Co 15:26  The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1Co 15:27  For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. so I do not see a SIMULTANEOUS reign. Health is fine. Been busy with the church which is a relatively new non-demoninational group. Also have been reading the posts with interest. The Bible definately opens itself to varied understandings and much discussion. I am persuaded that most, if not all, of us desire to follow Jesus and become like Him to the best of our understanding. Seeking

Seeking,

But in the meantime….

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,17:04)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2009,16:31) Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,13:17) Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,13:06) WorshipingJesus said to Kathi: Quote Hi Kathi So you think that invalidates John 1:1-3? Your argument is a red herring and leaves out the fact that Jesus who was in very nature God left his place of Glory and submitted to the Father by becoming a servant through taking on the likeness of sinful flesh and being found in fashion as a man declared the Father to be his God. Phil 2 WJ, Yes! Philippians 2 is the key to understanding. thinker Thinker and WJ, And I thought that you guys say that the “word” submitted to the Father and became a servant.  You say that it was an “eternal word” that existed before it became flesh. But that would make no sense since a word cannot submit or not submit, it is just an expression of a thought. BTW, the Son declared the Father to be His God while in the flesh and while He was exalted and given the name above all names.  See Rev. 3:12. Kathi Hi LU Please stop with the misrepresentations. When has Jack or myself ever refered to the Word as it? You know better than this! Jesus is the “Word that was with God and was God” and God is not an it! Read Phil 2 with an open mind! He was in very nature God, just as the Father is in very nature God! Notice he was not in very nature a begotten god or a begotten son. Blessings WJ Keith, By making what was meant to be an “it”, you have made it into a god. In the above sentence I have written 16 words.  That is what a word is, or do you see 16 gods? You worship a word.  I worship what is meant by the word. Kathi

Kathi

Do the words “And God was the Word” mean that the word is an it?

Your false accusations an misrepresentation of me and Jack is just a lame attempt by you to destract from the truth that stares you in the face.

You worship something less than God, and that is the discription of “idolatry”.

Blessings WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2009,17:46)

Quote (Cindy @ June 25 2009,17:28) W.J.  I do believe that John 1:1 is the Word that was with God.  However I do not believe that He always existed.   Col. 1:15 says that He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Rev. 3:14 …” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” Proverbs 8:22-28 verse 22 ” The LORD possessed Me at the beginning of His ways. Before His works of old. verse 23  I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning before there ever was an earth. verse 24  When there was no depths, I WAS BROUGHT FORTH, when there where no fountains abounding with water. verse 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I WAS BROUGHT FORTH. verse 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primeval dust of the world. verse 27  When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep. verse 28 When He established the clouds above, when He strengthen the fountains of the deep. On this you should see that the Word, who became Jesus, had a beginning. Peace and Love Irene Hi Cindy Jesus is not the “wisdom personified” unless he is female in gender. You are standing on ambiguous territory! Blessings WJ

Keith,
Wisdom is a female because the gender of the word “wisdom” is female…is that your argument? With that logic then Jesus can't be eternal life because eternal life is female in gender.

You know that the gender of words do not mean they represent things of only the same gender. Words that are masculine in gender do not tell us that they can only apply to males and visa versa. I know you know this.

Good grief Keith…you have stooped!!! Pick yourself up man!

Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,17:48)

Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,17:18) Lightenup said: Quote Thinker and WJ, And I thought that you guys say that the “word” submitted to the Father and became a servant.  You say that it was an “eternal word” that existed before it became flesh. But that would make no sense since a word cannot submit or not submit, it is just an expression of a thought. BTW, the Son declared the Father to be His God while in the flesh and while He was exalted and given the name above all names.  See Rev. 3:12. Kathi Kathi, Where have you been? When Paladin first arrived here Keith and I defended the Word as a Personal being. Paladin was saying that the Word was impersonal or an “it” like Gene. Now you are saying the same thing. When you say that the word cannot submit “itself” you are repeating the ancient Gnostic heresy. John said that the Word became flesh and we beheld HIS glory. Why isn't this good enough for you? thinker Thinker, The word “word” used in John 1:1 is an it, what the word represents is a personal being. There is the difference.  Words are things not persons.  Words can represent persons but they are not the person they represent.    The “word” is not a title in John 1:1.  The “Word of God ” is a title but that is not found in John 1:1. IMO There, I just wrote several words that have meaning and represent my thoughts. Now, I will write words also but this time without meaning: title the word difference not what represents are persons the found I used some of the same words in each instance.  Words are just words, they are just “its.”   What does the “word” mean?  What does the word represent? The whole idea about “eternal word” is nonsense.  What the word “word” represents is what is with God and what the word in the beginning represents is what was God. IMO Kathi

Hi Kathi

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,17:48)

What does the “word” mean?  What does the word represent? The whole idea about “eternal word” is nonsense.  What the word “word” represents is what is with God and what the word in the beginning represents is what was God. IMO Kathi

Why don't you tell the Apostle John that, for he is the One that wrote it didnt he?

So much for the henotheistic faith that says there is more than “One True God”.

John wrote “And God was the Word”.

Meaning the person of Jesus before his coming in the flesh in John 1:14.

Blessings WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2009,17:56)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,17:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2009,16:31) Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,13:17) Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,13:06) WorshipingJesus said to Kathi: Quote Hi Kathi So you think that invalidates John 1:1-3? Your argument is a red herring and leaves out the fact that Jesus who was in very nature God left his place of Glory and submitted to the Father by becoming a servant through taking on the likeness of sinful flesh and being found in fashion as a man declared the Father to be his God. Phil 2 WJ, Yes! Philippians 2 is the key to understanding. thinker Thinker and WJ, And I thought that you guys say that the “word” submitted to the Father and became a servant.  You say that it was an “eternal word” that existed before it became flesh. But that would make no sense since a word cannot submit or not submit, it is just an expression of a thought. BTW, the Son declared the Father to be His God while in the flesh and while He was exalted and given the name above all names.  See Rev. 3:12. Kathi Hi LU Please stop with the misrepresentations. When has Jack or myself ever refered to the Word as it? You know better than this! Jesus is the “Word that was with God and was God” and God is not an it! Read Phil 2 with an open mind! He was in very nature God, just as the Father is in very nature God! Notice he was not in very nature a begotten god or a begotten son. Blessings WJ Keith, By making what was meant to be an “it”, you have made it into a god. In the above sentence I have written 16 words.  That is what a word is, or do you see 16 gods? You worship a word.  I worship what is meant by the word. Kathi Kathi Do the words “And God was the Word” mean that the word is an it? Your false accusations an misrepresentation of me and Jack is just a lame attempt by you to destract from the truth that stares you in the face. You worship something less than God, and that is the discription of “idolatry”. Blessings WJ

Keith,
You are having a bad day, maybe you should take a break. I'm sorry something is bothering you.

BTW in what verse and in what translation do you find “And God was the Word?”

Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,17:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2009,17:46) Quote (Cindy @ June 25 2009,17:28) W.J.  I do believe that John 1:1 is the Word that was with God.  However I do not believe that He always existed.   Col. 1:15 says that He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Rev. 3:14 …” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” Proverbs 8:22-28 verse 22 ” The LORD possessed Me at the beginning of His ways. Before His works of old. verse 23  I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning before there ever was an earth. verse 24  When there was no depths, I WAS BROUGHT FORTH, when there where no fountains abounding with water. verse 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I WAS BROUGHT FORTH. verse 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primeval dust of the world. verse 27  When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep. verse 28 When He established the clouds above, when He strengthen the fountains of the deep. On this you should see that the Word, who became Jesus, had a beginning. Peace and Love Irene Hi Cindy Jesus is not the “wisdom personified” unless he is female in gender. You are standing on ambiguous territory! Blessings WJ Keith, Wisdom is a female because the gender of the word “wisdom” is female…is that your argument?  With that logic then Jesus can't be eternal life because eternal life is female in gender. You know that the gender of words do not mean they represent things of only the same gender. Words that are masculine in gender do not tell us that they can only apply to males and visa versa.  I know you know this. Good grief Keith…you have stooped!!! Pick yourself up man! Kathi

Hi Kathi

Do you see Jesus name or any reference to the Son in Proverbs 8?

Ambiguous territory!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,18:04)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2009,17:56) Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,17:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2009,16:31) Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,13:17) Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,13:06) WorshipingJesus said to Kathi: Quote Hi Kathi So you think that invalidates John 1:1-3? Your argument is a red herring and leaves out the fact that Jesus who was in very nature God left his place of Glory and submitted to the Father by becoming a servant through taking on the likeness of sinful flesh and being found in fashion as a man declared the Father to be his God. Phil 2 WJ, Yes! Philippians 2 is the key to understanding. thinker Thinker and WJ, And I thought that you guys say that the “word” submitted to the Father and became a servant.  You say that it was an “eternal word” that existed before it became flesh. But that would make no sense since a word cannot submit or not submit, it is just an expression of a thought. BTW, the Son declared the Father to be His God while in the flesh and while He was exalted and given the name above all names.  See Rev. 3:12. Kathi Hi LU Please stop with the misrepresentations. When has Jack or myself ever refered to the Word as it? You know better than this! Jesus is the “Word that was with God and was God” and God is not an it! Read Phil 2 with an open mind! He was in very nature God, just as the Father is in very nature God! Notice he was not in very nature a begotten god or a begotten son. Blessings WJ Keith, By making what was meant to be an “it”, you have made it into a god. In the above sentence I have written 16 words.  That is what a word is, or do you see 16 gods? You worship a word.  I worship what is meant by the word. Kathi Kathi Do the words “And God was the Word” mean that the word is an it? Your false accusations an misrepresentation of me and Jack is just a lame attempt by you to destract from the truth that stares you in the face. You worship something less than God, and that is the discription of “idolatry”. Blessings WJ Keith, You are having a bad day, maybe you should take a break.  I'm sorry something is bothering you. BTW in what verse and in what translation do you find “And God was the Word?” Kathi

Hi Kathi

No it seems that you had the bad day by misrepresenting me and Jack.

The Litteral translation of John 1:1c is “God was the Word”.

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Lightenup said:

Quote

What does the “word” mean?  What does the word represent? The whole idea about “eternal word” is nonsense.  What the word “word” represents is what is with God and what the word in the beginning represents is what was God. IMO

Kathi,
Have it your way. From now on I will say, “The Being that word represented is eternal.”

Quote

In the beginning was that Being which the word represented, and the Being which the word represented was with God, and God was the Being which the word represented

This discussion is now bordering on the ridiculous. No matter how you parse it the Being is eternal.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

WorshippingJesus said to Kathi:

Quote

Hi Kathi Do you see Jesus name or any reference to the Son in Proverbs 8? Ambiguous territory!

In Proverbs 8 wisdom is personified in the feminine gender (vs.1). The book was written in poetic form and it simply means that God in His wisdom created all things.

thinker

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2009,18:02)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,17:48) Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,17:18) Lightenup said: Quote Thinker and WJ, And I thought that you guys say that the “word” submitted to the Father and became a servant.  You say that it was an “eternal word” that existed before it became flesh. But that would make no sense since a word cannot submit or not submit, it is just an expression of a thought. BTW, the Son declared the Father to be His God while in the flesh and while He was exalted and given the name above all names.  See Rev. 3:12. Kathi Kathi, Where have you been? When Paladin first arrived here Keith and I defended the Word as a Personal being. Paladin was saying that the Word was impersonal or an “it” like Gene. Now you are saying the same thing. When you say that the word cannot submit “itself” you are repeating the ancient Gnostic heresy. John said that the Word became flesh and we beheld HIS glory. Why isn't this good enough for you? thinker Thinker, The word “word” used in John 1:1 is an it, what the word represents is a personal being. There is the difference.  Words are things not persons.  Words can represent persons but they are not the person they represent.    The “word” is not a title in John 1:1.  The “Word of God ” is a title but that is not found in John 1:1. IMO There, I just wrote several words that have meaning and represent my thoughts. Now, I will write words also but this time without meaning: title the word difference not what represents are persons the found I used some of the same words in each instance.  Words are just words, they are just “its.”   What does the “word” mean?  What does the word represent? The whole idea about “eternal word” is nonsense.  What the word “word” represents is what is with God and what the word in the beginning represents is what was God. IMO Kathi Hi Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,17:48) What does the “word” mean?  What does the word represent? The whole idea about “eternal word” is nonsense.  What the word “word” represents is what is with God and what the word in the beginning represents is what was God. IMO Kathi Why don't you tell the Apostle John that, for he is the One that wrote it didnt he? So much for the henotheistic faith that says there is more than “One True God”. John wrote “And God was the Word”. Meaning the person of Jesus before his coming in the flesh in John 1:14. Blessings WJ

Keith,
Then say the person of Jesus was in the beginning, the person of Jesus was with God, the person of Jesus was God. Say that the pre-existent Jesus was the person of Jesus. Regarding the word “word,” it represents a person. Can you see that??? “It” represents a person. The person is a “who” and not and “it.” The person is not an “it.” It (the word “word”) represents a person. So when I call the word “word” an it that is because a word is a thing. The word “word” is not a living thing, it represents a living person.IMO

Who was the person of Jesus…I say it was the son of GOD, you say it was the word. You seem to indicate a mystical word that always existed. An Eternal Word…if that isn't mystical I don't know what is. If the word represents an living person that was in the beginning then why do you refer often of the “eternal word” bit? You ask John why he didn't just write eternal word if that is what you think. The term “eternal word” is not a Biblical term as far as I have seen.

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2009,18:06)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,18:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2009,17:56) Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,17:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2009,16:31) Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2009,13:17) Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,13:06) WorshipingJesus said to Kathi: Quote Hi Kathi So you think that invalidates John 1:1-3? Your argument is a red herring and leaves out the fact that Jesus who was in very nature God left his place of Glory and submitted to the Father by becoming a servant through taking on the likeness of sinful flesh and being found in fashion as a man declared the Father to be his God. Phil 2 WJ, Yes! Philippians 2 is the key to understanding. thinker Thinker and WJ, And I thought that you guys say that the “word” submitted to the Father and became a servant.  You say that it was an “eternal word” that existed before it became flesh. But that would make no sense since a word cannot submit or not submit, it is just an expression of a thought. BTW, the Son declared the Father to be His God while in the flesh and while He was exalted and given the name above all names.  See Rev. 3:12. Kathi Hi LU Please stop with the misrepresentations. When has Jack or myself ever refered to the Word as it? You know better than this! Jesus is the “Word that was with God and was God” and God is not an it! Read Phil 2 with an open mind! He was in very nature God, just as the Father is in very nature God! Notice he was not in very nature a begotten god or a begotten son. Blessings WJ Keith, By making what was meant to be an “it”, you have made it into a god. In the above sentence I have written 16 words.  That is what a word is, or do you see 16 gods? You worship a word.  I worship what is meant by the word. Kathi Kathi Do the words “And God was the Word” mean that the word is an it? Your false accusations an misrepresentation of me and Jack is just a lame attempt by you to destract from the truth that stares you in the face. You worship something less than God, and that is the discription of “idolatry”. Blessings WJ Keith, You are having a bad day, maybe you should take a break.  I'm sorry something is bothering you. BTW in what verse and in what translation do you find “And God was the Word?” Kathi Hi Kathi No it seems that you had the bad day by misrepresenting me and Jack. The Litteral translation of John 1:1c is “God was the Word”. WJ

Keith,
You have not shown me one translation where your scholars have translated it that way…don't you think there is a reason for that? Or are you above the scholars?

[Lightenup]

Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,18:10)

WorshippingJesus said to Kathi: Quote Hi Kathi Do you see Jesus name or any reference to the Son in Proverbs 8? Ambiguous territory! In Proverbs 8 wisdom is personified in the feminine gender (vs.1). The book was written in poetic form and it simply means that God in His wisdom created all things. thinker

Thinker,
Often in poetry words represent other things or persons.

Many can see that wisdom might be representing the Son of God even Matthew Henry.

[Lightenup]

Quote (thethinker @ June 25 2009,18:06)

Lightenup said: Quote What does the “word” mean?  What does the word represent? The whole idea about “eternal word” is nonsense.  What the word “word” represents is what is with God and what the word in the beginning represents is what was God. IMO Kathi, Have it your way. From now on I will say, “The Being that word represented is eternal.” Quote In the beginning was that Being which the word represented, and the Being which the word represented was with God, and God was the Being which the word represented This discussion is now bordering on the ridiculous. No matter how you parse it the Being is eternal. thinker

Thinker,
You won't find “eternal” in John 1:1 either.

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