Attn anti-trinitarians: please explain these:

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ June 22 2009,10:37)

Kathi said: Quote Thinker, Do you ever give you children or employees a command and they fulfill your command.  That is an example of using a word to accomplish something.  You participated in the act and your child or employee also participated in the act.  It was your direction and their cooperation.  It took two parties to complete the task. Regarding turning the water to wine, Jesus gave the command and the servants fulfilled the command and somehow by the power of God the water became wine. I believe that could have been how it went between the Father and the Son during creation.  The Father gave the command, the Son fulfilled the command.  The Father gave the direction and the Son cooperated.  Both had a part in creation.  One part with a word, another part with His hand-which was His Son. Kathi, The major flaw with your theory is that Christ is called the “Word.” Therefore, all the “Let US” decrees in the Genesis narrative would have been spoken by the Word. There was no Father or Son relationship in the Godhead yet. thinker

The first chapter of John is written in Allegory.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Is this just your opinion?
Do you mean the whole chapter?
Do you have any supporting evidence?

[Cindy]

thinker When God speaks it has to be the Spokesman of God, who later became Jesus. Jesus told us that nobody has heard the Fathers voice or seen His shape. Yeshua was very much active in the Old Testament. He was not just a Word of the Father like some might want to believe. Also the trinity doctrine says 3in1. So if the Holy Spirit is a person, like the trinitarian think, then He must be Jesus Father. It falls very quickly apart. In Genesis it says let us make man in our image. That also shows us that Yeshua was active. He created all by the power of the Father.
Peace and Love Irene

[Lightenup]

Quote (thethinker @ June 21 2009,18:37)

Kathi said: Quote Thinker, Do you ever give you children or employees a command and they fulfill your command.  That is an example of using a word to accomplish something.  You participated in the act and your child or employee also participated in the act.  It was your direction and their cooperation.  It took two parties to complete the task. Regarding turning the water to wine, Jesus gave the command and the servants fulfilled the command and somehow by the power of God the water became wine. I believe that could have been how it went between the Father and the Son during creation.  The Father gave the command, the Son fulfilled the command.  The Father gave the direction and the Son cooperated.  Both had a part in creation.  One part with a word, another part with His hand-which was His Son. Kathi, The major flaw with your theory is that Christ is called the “Word.” Therefore, all the “Let US” decrees in the Genesis narrative would have been spoken by the Word. There was no Father or Son relationship in the Godhead yet. thinker

Thinker,
Christ isn't actually called “the word” in John 1:1.

We see here that His name is “the Word of God.”
Rev 19:13
13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
NASU

So, technically, I do not see the word as a name in John 1:1. It is simply speaking of a specific word that was spoken at a specific time in the beginning. IMO

We know that GOD spoke to the prophets in many ways from Hebrews :
Heb 1:1-2
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
NASU

He did not always use the Son to speak for Him, He spoke in many ways.

Your point is invalid.

We do not see the Father and Son relationship while we read the OT but we see that the one spoken of as the Son of God existed in the beginning and was born first of all creation. We learn in the NT that He is actually the Son of GOD but that doesn't mean that He wasn't the Son of GOD beforehand. We read no where that He was called “the Word” in the beginning. John 1:1 does not use that term “the word” as a name or a title. IMO

We must ask the question “what word was in the beginning and with God and was God?” I think that answer is very likely “let there be Light.”

Kathi

[KangarooJack]

Lightenup said:

Quote

Christ isn't actually called “the word” in John 1:1.

Verse 14 identifies the Word as Jesus.

Lightenup said:

Quote

He did not always use the Son to speak for Him, He spoke in many ways.

Exactly! This is true because there was no Son before the incarnation and resurrection of Jesus. And I thought we were speaking specifically about the creation and not God's methods of revealing Himself to man in the old testament. Christ as the Word is the creator. John connects the coming into being of all things with the Word (1:1-3). John speaks clearly. John's words have become convoluded because people equate the terms “Word” and “Son” in reference to Jesus. The two are NOT equal terms. Though both terms refer to the same individual the one refers to His existence in relationship to Himself BEFORE man entered the scene. The other (Son) has reference to His office as the Mediator of the covenant of redemption.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi tT,
Where is Jesus specifically called the creator?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2009,22:39)

Hi tT, Where is Jesus specifically called the creator?

Nick,
What are you saying? I have cited Hebrew 1:10 several times on various threads here.

The Father attributes creation to the Son,

Quote

You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of Your hands

The Father is speaking to the Son here.

thinker

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,03:19)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2009,22:39) Hi tT, Where is Jesus specifically called the creator? Nick, What are you saying? I have cited Hebrew 1:10 several times on various threads here. The Father attributes creation to the Son, Quote You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of Your hands The Father is speaking to the Son here. thinker

Compare Hebrews 1 to Hebrews 3

Hebrews 3
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Notice Jesus was appointed just as Moses and notice Paul is calling Jesus(blessings be upon him) a Man

He is called Apostle and High Priest

(6) The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His apostles. “We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles.” And they say: “We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.”
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #285)

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
So Jesus is appointed over his house in which we find salvation.
But is it Moses that you claim?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2009,06:58)

Hi BD, So Jesus is appointed over his house in which we find salvation. But is it Moses that you claim?

I'm not sure what you are asking.

[NickHassan]

Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,03:19)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2009,22:39) Hi tT, Where is Jesus specifically called the creator? Nick, What are you saying? I have cited Hebrew 1:10 several times on various threads here. The Father attributes creation to the Son, Quote You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of Your hands The Father is speaking to the Son here. thinker

Hi TT,
So it does not say he is the creator?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
So both Moses and Jesus are appointed by God over their houses but where do you fit in?

[Lightenup]

Quote (thethinker @ June 22 2009,04:33)

Lightenup said: Quote Christ isn't actually called “the word” in John 1:1. Verse 14 identifies the Word as Jesus. Lightenup said: Quote He did not always use the Son to speak for Him, He spoke in many ways. Exactly! This is true because there was no Son before the incarnation and resurrection of Jesus. And I thought we were speaking specifically about the creation and not God's methods of revealing Himself to man in the old testament. Christ as the Word is the creator. John connects the coming into being of all things with the Word (1:1-3). John speaks clearly. John's words have become convoluded because people equate the terms “Word” and “Son” in reference to Jesus. The two are NOT equal terms. Though both terms refer to the same individual the one refers to His existence in relationship to Himself BEFORE man entered the scene. The other (Son) has reference to His office as the Mediator of the covenant of redemption. thinker

Thinker,

Quote

Lightenup said: Quote Christ isn't actually called “the word” in John 1:1. Verse 14 identifies the Word as Jesus. Lightenup said: Quote He did not always use the Son to speak for Him, He spoke in many ways.

Thinker said:

Quote

Exactly! This is true because there was no Son before the incarnation and resurrection of Jesus

I do not agree that there was no Son before the incarnation.  I think that the man called Christ had not existed before the incarnation.  Christ had to be a man and not a spirit being.  I believe that the Son was a spirit being before He came into a flesh body as a man.  The inner man of Christ was the “inner man” of the Son as a spirit being. IMO

I do not see the Son as the one who created by His word.  Rather I see the Son as the Light from LIGHT that was actually an extension of the Most High GOD as a begotten offspring of GOD.  And then through the “Light” all things came into being.  The Most High GOD gave the word and the holy one referred to as “Light” assisted in bringing every thing into being.  I understand that the Most High GOD is the creator of all things and the Son is whom He brought all things into being by.  There is only one source and that is the Most High GOD.  The Son is not the source.

Kathi

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2009,07:19)

Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,03:19) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2009,22:39) Hi tT, Where is Jesus specifically called the creator? Nick, What are you saying? I have cited Hebrew 1:10 several times on various threads here. The Father attributes creation to the Son, Quote You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of Your hands The Father is speaking to the Son here. thinker Hi TT, So it does not say he is the creator?

Nick,
Then what is your explanation of the Father's words to the Son? If the statement “The heavens are the work of your hands” does not mean that the Son is the creator, then what does it mean?

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Lightenup said:

Quote

I do not agree that there was no Son before the incarnation.

Kathi,
Please give your biblical evidence. There is no word of a Son until Psalm 2:7.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,09:43)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2009,07:19) Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,03:19) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2009,22:39) Hi tT, Where is Jesus specifically called the creator? Nick, What are you saying? I have cited Hebrew 1:10 several times on various threads here. The Father attributes creation to the Son, Quote You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of Your hands The Father is speaking to the Son here. thinker Hi TT, So it does not say he is the creator? Nick, Then what is your explanation of the Father's words to the Son? If the statement “The heavens are the work of your hands” does not mean that the Son is the creator, then what does it mean? thinker

Hi TT,
You should not put words in God's mouth.
Scripture never calls Jesus the creator.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2009,09:57)

Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,09:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2009,07:19) Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,03:19) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2009,22:39) Hi tT, Where is Jesus specifically called the creator? Nick, What are you saying? I have cited Hebrew 1:10 several times on various threads here. The Father attributes creation to the Son, Quote You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of Your hands The Father is speaking to the Son here. thinker Hi TT, So it does not say he is the creator? Nick, Then what is your explanation of the Father's words to the Son? If the statement “The heavens are the work of your hands” does not mean that the Son is the creator, then what does it mean? thinker Hi TT, You should not put words in God's mouth. Scripture never calls Jesus the creator.

Just as I figured. You have no explanation.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Show us then where Jesus, the carpenter, is called the Creator.

Assumptions are not enough but find it written.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2009,10:07)

Hi TT, Show us then where Jesus, the carpenter, is called the Creator. Assumptions are not enough but find it written.

Nick,
You are dodging Hebrews 1.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Where in hebrews does it SAY Jesus is the creator?

[Author]

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