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To My Anti-trinitarian friends,
Please explain the following passages from the KJV.
Genesis 1:26,27: “And ELOHIM said, Let US make man in OUR image….”
Genesis 3:22 : “And YHWH ELOHIM said, Behold, the man has become as one of US, to know good and evil….”
Genesis 11:6-7: “And YHWH said, Behold, the people are one, and they have all one language….Let US go down and confuse their language….”
*In Genesis 1:26 ELOHIM refers to Himself as “US.”
*In Genesis 3:22 YHWH ELOHIM refers to Himself as “US.”
*In Genesis 11:6-7 YHWH refers to Himself as “US.”
Whether it is Elohim, YHWH Elohim, or simply YHWH we see that God is a plural entity. Anyone care to explain?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 19 2009,10:43) To My Anti-trinitarian friends, Please explain the following passages from the KJV.
Genesis 1:26,27: “And ELOHIM said, Let US make man in OUR image….”
Genesis 3:22 : “And YHWH ELOHIM said, Behold, the man has become as one of US, to know good and evil….”
Genesis 11:6-7: “And YHWH said, Behold, the people are one, and they have all one language….Let US go down and confuse their language….”
*In Genesis 1:26 ELOHIM refers to Himself as “US.”
*In Genesis 3:22 YHWH ELOHIM refers to Himself as “US.”
*In Genesis 11:6-7 YHWH refers to Himself as “US.”
Whether it is Elohim, YHWH Elohim, or simply YHWH we see that God is a plural entity. Anyone care to explain?
thinker
“The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:PRECEDES CREATION OF GENESIS 1-
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.” [Prov 8:22-31]By the time God made the following statement, he was already involved with wisdom in the creative effort:
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” [Gen 1:26-27]Psalm 104:24 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.
Psalm 136:5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
It is admitted that Gen 1:26 implies plurality. But plurality simply means “more than one.” Proponents of Trinity doctrine limit the number to three beings in this verse and they presumably involve the Son and the Holy Spirit.
We should notice that nowhere in the verse does it state
that the pronouns “us” and “our” refer to the “Word” or the
“Holy Ghost”. Indeed, the Bible clearly stated that Jehovah (God) MONOS [alone] created all things (Is. 44:24; 37:16).If Jesus was with the father, they would be “ouk monos {not alone.} [John 16:32]
John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me monos [alone]: and yet I am ouk monos [not alone], BECAUSE THE FATHER IS WITH ME. IF EITHER THE FATHER OR THE SON IS “OUK MONOS,” THEY ARE NOT TOGETHER.
Let us now examine the argument that “Elohiym” is a plural term AND therefore references a plural diety.
what is the meaning of Elohiym as a “plural term.”
Abraham is called Elohiym [Gen 23:6] Is he a member of the so-called “Godhead?”
Samuel is called Elohiym [1 Sam 28:13-14] Is he a member of the so-called “Godhead?”
If so, prove it.
If not why not?
If Jehovah uses Elohiym to reference himself, and also uses it to reference Abraham, and Samuel, does that make them a “trinity?” Why not?If Jesus is God, equal with the father BECAUSE he is called Elohiym, then Abraham and Samuel have a prior claim the the same lofty title.
If not, why not?
AND God called them “Elohiym” unto who the word of God came. Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
CORRECTION
ISAID IF EITHER THE FATHER OR THE SON IS “OUK MONOS,” THEY ARE NOT TOGETHER.
I SHOULD HAVE SAID:
IF EITHER THE FATHER OR THE SON IS “OUK MONOS,” THEY ARE NOT ALONE.Quote (thethinker @ June 19 2009,10:43) To My Anti-trinitarian friends, Please explain the following passages from the KJV.
Genesis 1:26,27: “And ELOHIM said, Let US make man in OUR image….”
Genesis 3:22 : “And YHWH ELOHIM said, Behold, the man has become as one of US, to know good and evil….”
Genesis 11:6-7: “And YHWH said, Behold, the people are one, and they have all one language….Let US go down and confuse their language….”
*In Genesis 1:26 ELOHIM refers to Himself as “US.”
*In Genesis 3:22 YHWH ELOHIM refers to Himself as “US.”
*In Genesis 11:6-7 YHWH refers to Himself as “US.”
Whether it is Elohim, YHWH Elohim, or simply YHWH we see that God is a plural entity. Anyone care to explain?
thinker
Hi thethinker:He is Elohim because he is the God of god's and the Lord of Lords and he does not tell us to whom he is referring when He uses the term “us”, but in the OT He used angels to minister to men, and so, I believe that He was speaking to the angels or messengers in the verses that you quote. Later he used men in this process of making man in his image.
Quote Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: Quote Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2009,10:48) Hi TT,
Are you suggesting several gods had discussions together?
God is one.
Nick,
The plural pronoun “US” was Moses' word and not mine. Okay, so I know that you can't explain it.thinker
Paladin said:
Quote “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: Paladin,
The one speaking in Proverbs 8 is a “she.” What about this?Paladin said:
Quote Abraham is called Elohiym [Gen 23:6] Is he a member of the so-called “Godhead?”
Samuel is called Elohiym [1 Sam 28:13-14] Is he a member of the so-called “Godhead?”You missed my point. I noted that YHWH said “US.”
Quote “And YHWH said, Behold, the people are one, and they have all one language….Let US go down and confuse their language….” (Gen. 11:6-7) I was trying to show you that my argument was not based on the use of “elohim” alone. In Genesis YHWH also says “US.” Please show where Abraham and Samuel were called “YHWH.” And show how YHWH can refer to Himself in the plural if He is not a plural entity. Both you and Nick have shown that you cannot explain.
thinker
Marty said:
Quote Hi thethinker: He is Elohim because he is the God of god's and the Lord of Lords and he does not tell us to whom he is referring when He uses the term “us”, but in the OT He used angels to minister to men, and so, I believe that He was speaking to the angels or messengers in the verses that you quote. Later he used men in this process of making man in his image.
You missed my point as did Paladin. YHWH also said “US.”
Quote “And YHWH said, Behold, the people are one, and they have all one language….Let US go down and confuse their language….” (Gen. 11:6-7) You say that God is the Elohim of elohim's. Is He the YHWH of yhwh's too?
Nick made no attempt at all to engage with the information I gave. You and Paladin did better but you both failed to see that YHWH said “US” and not just Elohim. Please explain how YHWH can refer to Himself as “US” if He is not a plural entity.
So far nobody here has explained anything.
thinker
Thinker,
We are told over and over in the New Testament that the Father created everything in heaven and earth through the Son. So, the Father is speaking to the Son. Here we have a conversation between two beings, the Most High GOD speaking to His Son. The Son shared the image of the Father because sons do that when they are true sons, and GOD made us in their image. Later they have another conversation about confusing the language of man. You will see throughout the scriptures that most of the time, Elohim or Yahweh use the singular pronoun. This is not hard.Blessings,
KathiQuote (thethinker @ June 19 2009,20:15) Paladin said: Quote “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: Paladin,
The one speaking in Proverbs 8 is a “she.” What about this?[/quote]Doesn't mean anything. Angels wings are masculine, but feathers on wings are feminine. Gender does not mean too much in the original language other than idiosyncrisy.
Paladin said:
Quote Abraham is called Elohiym [Gen 23:6] Is he a member of the so-called “Godhead?”
Samuel is called Elohiym [1 Sam 28:13-14] Is he a member of the so-called “Godhead?”You missed my point. I noted that YHWH said “US
Quote “And YHWH said, Behold, the people are one, and they have all one language….Let US go down and confuse their language….” (Gen. 11:6-7) I was trying to show you that my argument was not based on the use of “elohim” alone. In Genesis YHWH also says “US.” Please show where Abraham and Samuel were called “YHWH.” And show how YHWH can refer to Himself in the plural if He is not a plural entity. Both you and Nick have shown that you cannot explain. thinker.”[/quote]
Didn't miss your point at all, you missed MY point. God, speaking to Wisdom, said “Let us make man in our image.” Later scripture shows that Elohiym and wisdom collaborated in all creation activities; examples given from scripture in first response.
There are many Hebrew “plural” form nouns that have nothing to do with number. I will limit this post to one example; Jeroboam; “And Jeroboam the son of Nebat, an Ephrathite of Zereda, Solomon's servant, whose mother's name was Zeruah, a widow woman, even he lifted up his hand against the king.”
Not only is Jeroboam in a Hebrew word plural form, it is singular in the Greek word form of the Septuagint.
1 Kings 11:26 kai Ieroboam [Nominative masculine singular]
So also is Elohim, where the Greek offers Theos in the singular form, EXCEPT where it carries a plural meaning in the Hebrew, demonstrated by plural verbs and plural modifiers, in which cases, it offers the Greek plural; see Gen 3:5 for Theoi.
In Genesis 1:1 Elohim is in a Hebrew plural wordform, but has the singular verb “bara” which CANNOT be understood to mean a plural deity. AND it is Theos [Nominative masculine singular] in the Greek Septuagint.
There is no plural deity found in the use of the Hebrew wordform Elohiym, in and of itself. It requires plural verbs and modifiers to imply plural deities.
Elohim is used 2250 times in scripture, and is translated “God” when referencing the One True God, and is ALWAYS accompanied by singular verbs. It is also translated “God” when referencing a singular false God, and accompanied by singular verbs.
When “Elohim” is used to reference more than one false God, plural verb forms are used.
Gen 1:1 uses Elohiym with “Bara” – a singular verb, 3rd person masculine singular, which DEMANDS a singular God as the creator. The only way to get a multiple-person creator out of Gen 1:1 is by overwhelming grammar with doctrine.
Exod 32:4 “And he received them at their hand and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy GODS, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.” “BROUGHT UP OUT” is a 3rd person plural verb, DEMANDING that Elohim references more than one false God, even though only one golden calf was made, it was representative of “sacred cows” worshipped by Egypt at that time.
In Gen 1:26 “Elohim SAID,” 3rd person masculine singular verb.
Gen 3:22 The Lord (3rd person singular form of Jehovah) (Elohim) SAID [3rd person masculine singular verb] the man is become as one of “US;” [1st person plural].
“US” requires that someone other than Elohim Jehovah was present and included in God's statement.
Gen 11:6-7 does not even use Elohim, but Jehovah [3rd person singular form of “to be”] SAID [3rd person masculine singular verb] GO TO (havah = imperative) [2nd person masculine singular verb] let us go down [1st person plural]
It must be understood, God does not issue imperatives to equals. He most likely was addressing angels to whom he was giving instructions.
Isaiah 6:8 is the ONLY other case in scripture wherein a plural modifier might be considered as implying a plural deity.
Isaiah records – “Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send [1st person singular], and who will go for us
[1st person plural]. The antecedent “I” cannot be the basis for the plural pronoun “US.” The context of Isaiah 6 shows very active angelic activity. He is not referencing equals, because he alone “SENDS.”There are only four verses out of several thousand scripture references to God, where the plural verbs are used, to indicate inclusion of others in his activity, but NEVER is another equal included.
Doesn'tHi PD
Quote (Paladin @ June 19 2009,09:55) Gen 1:1 uses Elohiym with “Bara” – a singular verb, 3rd person masculine singular, which DEMANDS a singular God as the creator. The only way to get a multiple-person creator out of Gen 1:1 is by overwhelming grammar with doctrine. Really! Well it seems to me that you are the one trying to force your rules on the Hebrew grammer. You are claiming that the word Elohiym cannot be plural when refering to YHWH, yet Moses uses the word.
What you are saying is like saying that “ONE” bushel of Apples can only be one apple, or that “ONE” atom can only be singular and not a plural unity, or that “One” number can only be the number one!
Scriptures clearly teach “Plurality in unity” which is in line with all of creation which reveals the Glory of God.
There is nothing in the Universe that is not plural in Unity!
Name it.
Blessings WJ
Paladin said:
Quote There are many Hebrew “plural” form nouns that have nothing to do with number. I will limit this post to one example; Jeroboam; “And Jeroboam the son of Nebat, an Ephrathite of Zereda, Solomon's servant, whose mother's name was Zeruah, a widow woman, even he lifted up his hand against the king.” Paladin,
Please forget about Hebrew plural form nouns for a moment. I am talking about the name YHWH which is singular. YHWH said, “Let US go down and confuse their languages.” It was YHWH who said, “Behold, the man has become as “one of us.” YHWH did not merely say “us.” He said that man has become as “one of us.” This clearly indicates a distinction as well as a plurality of persons.Queen Victoria said, “We are not amused.” This is vague. But if she had said, “One of us is not amused” she would have shown a clear distinction as well as a plurality of persons.
Your comments on wisdom in Proverbs 8 do not apply. Proverbs belongs to Hebrew poetic literature. Wisdom was being personified which the use of the feminine pronoun suggests,
Quote Does not wisdom cry, and understanding put forth HER voice? (vs. 1).
The wisdom of God was being personified. It simply means that God in wisdom created all things.thinker
Quote (Lightenup @ June 20 2009,01:10) Thinker,
We are told over and over in the New Testament that the Father created everything in heaven and earth through the Son. So, the Father is speaking to the Son. Here we have a conversation between two beings, the Most High GOD speaking to His Son. The Son shared the image of the Father because sons do that when they are true sons, and GOD made us in their image. Later they have another conversation about confusing the language of man. You will see throughout the scriptures that most of the time, Elohim or Yahweh use the singular pronoun. This is not hard.Blessings,
Kathi
Kathi,
We are NOT told over and over again that the Father created all things through the Son. We are told that Father created the ages of human history through the Son (Hebrews 1:2). Then the Father goes on to attribute the physical creation solely to the hands of the Son,Quote You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of Your hands (Hebrews 1:19) This was the Father speaking to the Son attributing the creation of the physical universe to the Him. Therefore, it would have been the Son speaking to the Father saying, “Let US make man in OUR image.”
You provided no Scriptures to back up your assertion that the Father created through the Son. The Father attributed the creation of the physical universe to the Son alone saying that it was the work of “YOUR hands.” You are reading into the Scriptures. Paul simply said that all things were created “through” (dia) Christ. The Greek “dia” refers to direct agency. Paul said nothing of creation through the Son by indirect agency. This is your assumption. The Father Himself attributed the creation of the physical universe directly and solely to the Son as I have shown from Hebrews 1:10. Therefore, it would have been the Son who said, “Let US make….”
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2009,05:11) Hi PD Quote (Paladin @ June 19 2009,09:55) Gen 1:1 uses Elohiym with “Bara” – a singular verb, 3rd person masculine singular, which DEMANDS a singular God as the creator. The only way to get a multiple-person creator out of Gen 1:1 is by overwhelming grammar with doctrine. Really! Well it seems to me that you are the one trying to force your rules on the Hebrew grammer. You are claiming that the word Elohiym cannot be plural when refering to YHWH, yet Moses uses the word.
What you are saying is like saying that “ONE” bushel of Apples can only be one apple, or that “ONE” atom can only be singular and not a plural unity, or that “One” number can only be the number one!
Scriptures clearly teach “Plurality in unity” which is in line with all of creation which reveals the Glory of God.
There is nothing in the Universe that is not plural in Unity!
Name it.
Blessings WJ
Quote (Paladin @ June 19 2009,09:55) Gen 1:1 uses Elohiym with “Bara” – a singular verb, 3rd person masculine singular, which DEMANDS a singular God as the creator. The only way to get a multiple-person creator out of Gen 1:1 is by overwhelming grammar with doctrine. (WJ) Really! Well it seems to me that you are the one trying to force your rules on the Hebrew grammer. You are claiming that the word Elohiym cannot be plural when refering to YHWH, yet Moses uses the word.
What happened to scholarship? Did you check the Hebrew grammars? Did you find a fatal flaw in my post?
“I don't think so” is not a rebuttal. Your remarks addressed NONE of my post. And I made no such claim as you suggest.
I said nothing about the word Elohim can't be plural, in fact I pointed out it IS a plural wordform.You will never be able to communicate to me with proper rebuttal because you never accurately report what I say in my posts.
Look up the effect of plural verbs with plural nouns, THEN come back with a proper rebuttal. Stop with the sophomoric
switcheroo by attacking my post on plural nouns and plural verbs with your own argument on the use of echad which was NEVER part of my post on nouns and verbs.I do not intend to continue to post to your arguments until you address the issues raised in my posts.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2009,05:11) Hi PD Quote (Paladin @ June 19 2009,09:55) Gen 1:1 uses Elohiym with “Bara” – a singular verb, 3rd person masculine singular, which DEMANDS a singular God as the creator. The only way to get a multiple-person creator out of Gen 1:1 is by overwhelming grammar with doctrine. Really! Well it seems to me that you are the one trying to force your rules on the Hebrew grammer. You are claiming that the word Elohiym cannot be plural when refering to YHWH, yet Moses uses the word.
What you are saying is like saying that “ONE” bushel of Apples can only be one apple, or that “ONE” atom can only be singular and not a plural unity, or that “One” number can only be the number one!
Scriptures clearly teach “Plurality in unity” which is in line with all of creation which reveals the Glory of God.
There is nothing in the Universe that is not plural in Unity!
Name it.
Blessings WJ
WJ.There is one God and he sent his son into the world.
The one who sent his son is the Father.Quote (Paladin @ June 19 2009,18:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2009,05:11) Hi PD Quote (Paladin @ June 19 2009,09:55) Gen 1:1 uses Elohiym with “Bara” – a singular verb, 3rd person masculine singular, which DEMANDS a singular God as the creator. The only way to get a multiple-person creator out of Gen 1:1 is by overwhelming grammar with doctrine. Really! Well it seems to me that you are the one trying to force your rules on the Hebrew grammer. You are claiming that the word Elohiym cannot be plural when refering to YHWH, yet Moses uses the word.
What you are saying is like saying that “ONE” bushel of Apples can only be one apple, or that “ONE” atom can only be singular and not a plural unity, or that “One” number can only be the number one!
Scriptures clearly teach “Plurality in unity” which is in line with all of creation which reveals the Glory of God.
There is nothing in the Universe that is not plural in Unity!
Name it.
Blessings WJ
Quote (Paladin @ June 19 2009,09:55) Gen 1:1 uses Elohiym with “Bara” – a singular verb, 3rd person masculine singular, which DEMANDS a singular God as the creator. The only way to get a multiple-person creator out of Gen 1:1 is by overwhelming grammar with doctrine. (WJ) Really! Well it seems to me that you are the one trying to force your rules on the Hebrew grammer. You are claiming that the word Elohiym cannot be plural when refering to YHWH, yet Moses uses the word.
What happened to scholarship? Did you check the Hebrew grammars? Did you find a fatal flaw in my post?
“I don't think so” is not a rebuttal. Your remarks addressed NONE of my post. And I made no such claim as you suggest.
I said nothing about the word Elohim can't be plural, in fact I pointed out it IS a plural wordform.You will never be able to communicate to me with proper rebuttal because you never accurately report what I say in my posts.
Look up the effect of plural verbs with plural nouns, THEN come back with a proper rebuttal. Stop with the sophomoric
switcheroo by attacking my post on plural nouns and plural verbs with your own argument on the use of echad which was NEVER part of my post on nouns and verbs.I do not intend to continue to post to your arguments until you address the issues raised in my posts.
Hi PDAgain, you said…
Quote (Paladin @ June 19 2009,09:55) Gen 1:1 uses Elohiym with “Bara” – a singular verb, 3rd person masculine singular, which DEMANDS a singular God as the creator. The only way to get a multiple-person creator out of Gen 1:1 is by overwhelming grammar with doctrine. So rant on about me representing you if you like. But my point is that plural unity is in scripture and the very fact that contextually you ignore that YHWH is refered to as us and him as well as man being referred to as him and them shows in my opinion your own bias.
Please give some source for your claims that the plural word Elohyim cannot mean plural when used with the verb “Bara”.
You expect us to believe what you say without showing evidence.
If Moses didnt mean to imply “Pluralality” in the creation he could have used “El” could he not?
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ June 19 2009,20:27) Marty said: Quote Hi thethinker: He is Elohim because he is the God of god's and the Lord of Lords and he does not tell us to whom he is referring when He uses the term “us”, but in the OT He used angels to minister to men, and so, I believe that He was speaking to the angels or messengers in the verses that you quote. Later he used men in this process of making man in his image.
You missed my point as did Paladin. YHWH also said “US.”
Quote “And YHWH said, Behold, the people are one, and they have all one language….Let US go down and confuse their language….” (Gen. 11:6-7) You say that God is the Elohim of elohim's. Is He the YHWH of yhwh's too?
Nick made no attempt at all to engage with the information I gave. You and Paladin did better but you both failed to see that YHWH said “US” and not just Elohim. Please explain how YHWH can refer to Himself as “US” if He is not a plural entity.
So far nobody here has explained anything.
thinker
Hi thethinker:There is only “ONE” YHWH, but all those who are obeying His Word are partakers of his divine nature, and so when He says “US”, is referring to Himself and those who are obeying His Word.
And so, in Genesis 1:26, We would have Elohim (The God of gods) saying let “US” (YHWH and his angels, those who are obedient to His Word) make man in “our” image.
And Genesis 1:27 Elohim (The God of gods) created man in His (own) image. In the image of Elohim (The God of gods) created He him, male and female created He them.
Quote Gen 3:22 And the LORD (YHWH) God (Elohim (The God of gods) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us(YHWH and those who are partakers of His divine nature because they are obeying His Word), to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Quote Gen 11:5 And the LORD(YHWH) came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
Gen 11:6 And the LORD(YHWH) said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us(YHWH and His angels) go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Gen 11:8 So the LORD(YHWH) scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.(Acknoweledging that YHWH does not tell us who “US” is in verse 7 and if it is the angels as I have suggested, it is not evident from the scriptures that he has given us how he used them to confound the language of those building the tower, but this is what I would have to think based on the scriptures that I have already discussed and also because of the following scripture):
In speaking to Job YHWH says:
Quote Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons(Those who are partakers of His divine nature through obedience to His Word) of God(Elohim, the God of gods) shouted for joy?And so, thethinker, this is what I understand the scriptures to say. You say no one has explained anything so far. Let us hear what you believe that these scripture are saying.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (t8 @ June 20 2009,10:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2009,05:11) Hi PD Quote (Paladin @ June 19 2009,09:55) Gen 1:1 uses Elohiym with “Bara” – a singular verb, 3rd person masculine singular, which DEMANDS a singular God as the creator. The only way to get a multiple-person creator out of Gen 1:1 is by overwhelming grammar with doctrine. Really! Well it seems to me that you are the one trying to force your rules on the Hebrew grammer. You are claiming that the word Elohiym cannot be plural when refering to YHWH, yet Moses uses the word.
What you are saying is like saying that “ONE” bushel of Apples can only be one apple, or that “ONE” atom can only be singular and not a plural unity, or that “One” number can only be the number one!
Scriptures clearly teach “Plurality in unity” which is in line with all of creation which reveals the Glory of God.
There is nothing in the Universe that is not plural in Unity!
Name it.
Blessings WJ
WJ.There is one God and he sent his son into the world.
The one who sent his son is the Father.
Exactly T8John 15:24-26 (New King James Version)
24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’[a]The Coming Rejection
26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
(1) And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be ahmad.” But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!”
( سورة الصف , As-Saff, Chapter #61, Verse #6)Quote (t8 @ June 19 2009,18:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2009,05:11) Hi PD Quote (Paladin @ June 19 2009,09:55) Gen 1:1 uses Elohiym with “Bara” – a singular verb, 3rd person masculine singular, which DEMANDS a singular God as the creator. The only way to get a multiple-person creator out of Gen 1:1 is by overwhelming grammar with doctrine. Really! Well it seems to me that you are the one trying to force your rules on the Hebrew grammer. You are claiming that the word Elohiym cannot be plural when refering to YHWH, yet Moses uses the word.
What you are saying is like saying that “ONE” bushel of Apples can only be one apple, or that “ONE” atom can only be singular and not a plural unity, or that “One” number can only be the number one!
Scriptures clearly teach “Plurality in unity” which is in line with all of creation which reveals the Glory of God.
There is nothing in the Universe that is not plural in Unity!
Name it.
Blessings WJ
WJ.There is one God and he sent his son into the world.
The one who sent his son is the Father.
Hi t8Jesus is the “Only Unique” Son.
If you have a Son is he less human than you?
Rather simple isnt it?
WJ
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