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Quote (thethinker @ July 02 2009,20:13) Quote (942767 @ July 02 2009,11:25) Quote (thethinker @ July 02 2009,09:56) Chosenone's source said: Quote “The Word” of God in John 1:1 may well have in view not only God’s personified Word, Christ, but His written word as well. In any case, “THE WORD was toward God.” Any sense, then, in which it is correct to say that “the Word was God,” must be compatible with the Word’s being, first of all “toward God.” This fact precludes the Word’s being literally and identificationally God, and entails Its being God only figuratively, in a representative sense. Hence it is simply incorrect to reason that if in John 1:1 Christ is the Word, it follows that He is therein affirmed to be God, in either a literal or absolute sense. To All,
CO's anti-trinitarian source confesses that Jesus is God in the representative sense but denies that He is God in the absolute sense. Would someone please explain the difference this makes? The One who is God in the absolute sense says to me that Jesus is Representative God so honor Him as you do Me.This is the problem with anti-trinitarianism. They reluctantly acknowledge that Christ is Representative God but don't give Him the honor that necessarily goes with that. In practice anti-trinitarians deny that Christ is God in any sense whatsoever.
Anti-trinitarians just don't get it. REPRESENTATIVE GOD IS GOD OR BEING “REPRESENTATIVE” GOD MEANS NOTHING!
thinker
Hi thethinker:And so, he is God's Christ, the anointed one, sent by God as His representative, and that is what Phillipians 2:6 is indicating when the scriptures states that “being in the form of God…”, and not that he was in the form of God before he was born into this world.
Hebrew 1 states: Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] SonJesus was sent by God as His representative, and given authority to act in His behalf, but note that he was sent and was given the authority, and therefore, he himself is not God in the sense that you trinitarians are indicating.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
What does it matter? If Christ is Representative God then He is the appointed Sovereign and supreme ruler over you.thinker
Hi thethinker:God has given him all power over heaven and earth, and he is worthy of all praise, glory and honor, and yes, he is my Lord, and I love him and am subjected to God through him.
There is no problem with what you have stated here, and I agree, but when you say that he is God in the sense of the “Trinity”, you are causing some Jews and Muslims to reject God's gift of salvation, and that is very serious.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty said:
Quote Hi thethinker: God has given him all power over heaven and earth, and he is worthy of all praise, glory and honor, and yes, he is my Lord, and I love him and am subjected to God through him.
There is no problem with what you have stated here, and I agree, but when you say that he is God in the sense of the “Trinity”, you are causing some Jews and Muslims to reject God's gift of salvation, and that is very serious.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
Most Jews do not accept that Jesus in the Messiah, and Muslims do not believe fully in the God of the Bible. So I do not see how being a trinitarian causes them to stumble.
TC27
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 03 2009,09:34) Marty said: Quote Hi thethinker: God has given him all power over heaven and earth, and he is worthy of all praise, glory and honor, and yes, he is my Lord, and I love him and am subjected to God through him.
There is no problem with what you have stated here, and I agree, but when you say that he is God in the sense of the “Trinity”, you are causing some Jews and Muslims to reject God's gift of salvation, and that is very serious.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
Most Jews do not accept that Jesus in the Messiah, and Muslims do not believe fully in the God of the Bible. So I do not see how being a trinitarian causes them to stumble.
TC27
Hi:While it is true that many Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, the issue with confessing Jesus as Lord is the following commandment:
Quote Deu 5:6 ¶ I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deu 5:7 ¶ Thou shalt have none other gods before me.I have been on the streets evangelizing for the past 13 years, and I know by experience that this is the case.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ July 02 2009,13:50) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 03 2009,09:34) Marty said: Quote Hi thethinker: God has given him all power over heaven and earth, and he is worthy of all praise, glory and honor, and yes, he is my Lord, and I love him and am subjected to God through him.
There is no problem with what you have stated here, and I agree, but when you say that he is God in the sense of the “Trinity”, you are causing some Jews and Muslims to reject God's gift of salvation, and that is very serious.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
Most Jews do not accept that Jesus in the Messiah, and Muslims do not believe fully in the God of the Bible. So I do not see how being a trinitarian causes them to stumble.
TC27
Hi:While it is true that many Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, the issue with confessing Jesus as Lord is the following commandment:
Quote Deu 5:6 ¶ I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deu 5:7 ¶ Thou shalt have none other gods before me.I have been on the streets evangelizing for the past 13 years, and I know by experience that this is the case.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,Are you saying that Jesus being called Lord is the problem? I think that is what you are saying, but I also notice that you previously stated that Jesus is your Lord. Please tell me if I misunderstand you.
TC27
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 03 2009,09:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,12:55) Hi TC,
So Jesus was the sacrifice.
So to Whom was he sacrificed?
Nick,In the Old Testament it was the job of the priest to offer up a sacrifice to atone for the sins of the people. However, we know that Jesus was the high priest AND the sacrifice. So if Jesus can be both priest and sacrifice, can he not also be God?
TC27
No! God cannot die.The Lord God made Lords of men. That made them Lords, not Gods. David addressed Saul as “My Lord the king.”
1 Samuel 24:8 David also arose afterward, and went out of the cave, and cried after Saul, saying, My [adown] lord the king. And when Saul looked behind him, David stooped with his face to the earth, and bowed himself.The word translated “bowed” as “he bowed himself” is the same word translated “worshipped” as in “he worshipped God.”
It is a word used to indicate any kind of obeisance, whether wife to husband, slave to master, brother to firstborn, and any other kind of proper obeisance.
But kings were all addressed as “Lord.”
God raised many men to the lofty title, “Lord” and Jesus was one of many. That in no way implies God ceased to be Lord of the universe, just because God raised a man to rule it, making him Lord.
Even Sarah called Abraham “Lord.” That doesn't mean she thought of him as God.
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 03 2009,10:47) Quote (942767 @ July 02 2009,13:50) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 03 2009,09:34) Marty said: Quote Hi thethinker: God has given him all power over heaven and earth, and he is worthy of all praise, glory and honor, and yes, he is my Lord, and I love him and am subjected to God through him.
There is no problem with what you have stated here, and I agree, but when you say that he is God in the sense of the “Trinity”, you are causing some Jews and Muslims to reject God's gift of salvation, and that is very serious.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
Most Jews do not accept that Jesus in the Messiah, and Muslims do not believe fully in the God of the Bible. So I do not see how being a trinitarian causes them to stumble.
TC27
Hi:While it is true that many Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, the issue with confessing Jesus as Lord is the following commandment:
Quote Deu 5:6 ¶ I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deu 5:7 ¶ Thou shalt have none other gods before me.I have been on the streets evangelizing for the past 13 years, and I know by experience that this is the case.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,Are you saying that Jesus being called Lord is the problem? I think that is what you are saying, but I also notice that you previously stated that Jesus is your Lord. Please tell me if I misunderstand you.
TC27
Hi:I said that he is my Lord, but I did not say that he is my God. I am subjected to God through him.
Just prior to Jesus ascending into heaven he said the following:
Quote John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.And so, Jesus said that His God is my God, and so then he himself stated that he is not my God.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
Jesus was called God by God himself. So why shouldn't you call him your God.
Hebrews 1:9-10
Quote 9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[f] 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.In this passage Jesus is CLEARLY being referred to as God. Also, you can clearly see that he laid the foundations of the earth. Jesus did that and so did God. Therefore Jesus is God because we do not have two creators!
TC27
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,15:58) Hi TC,
So bothe Jesus and God both did things so Jesus must be God?
Have you studied logic at all?
Nick,You claim that there is one creator. Therefore, if Jesus and God created then you cannot be correct. So, since God is the sole creator, but Jesus also created, then Jesus has to be God. Also you claim that Jesus did not exist until his birth, so if that is true then he could not have contributed to creation. Your logic is flawed. Not mine.
TC27
Hi TC,
We do not use weak human logic to glue scriptures together and hope to have found truth.
Show me where any bible teacher taught trinity.
That is where to start.Otherwise you are on your own standing on just the ideas of men.
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 03 2009,11:48) Marty, Jesus was called God by God himself. So why shouldn't you call him your God.
Hebrews 1:9-10
Quote 9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[f] 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.In this passage Jesus is CLEARLY being referred to as God. Also, you can clearly see that he laid the foundations of the earth. Jesus did that and so did God. Therefore Jesus is God because we do not have two creators!
TC27
Hi:I don't call him my God because he is not. There is only “One God”.
He is God in that he is the express image of God's person (Hebrews 1:3). God is a spirit of Love, and Jesus exemplified this through the life that Jesus lived in obedience to God.
In the following scripture, God calls does call His Son God, and so, let's look at the scripture:
Quote 8 But to the Son He says:
“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[g]These scriptures are referring to exaltation of Jesus to his position as head of the church, and God calls “THE SON” God, and it appears to me that the reason that He calls him God is reveled in verse 9 which states:
Quote 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[I admit that I have difficulty with Hebrews 1:10.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (thethinker @ July 02 2009,06:07) Paladin said: Quote Because Greek has no past tense, there is often confusion as to what is being said when relating events that are in OUR past. It has aorist, a tense of accomplishment, but no past tense. Aorist tells us if a task or action was started (or in progress); or if it was completed at the time of the telling (Aorist 1 & Aorist 2); Or if it was taking place at the time of the telling (present tense); or if it was yet to be done at the time of writing (future tense). Paladin,
Please cite your source. You are wrong about the Greek aorist tense,Quote The function of the aorist is a matter of tremendous importance. The time of the action is past. The kind of action is punctiliar. Thus is observed the difference between the imperfect and the aorist. The imperfect indicates continuous action in past time (Essentials of New Testament Greek, Ray Summers, Broadman Press, p. 66) You are essentially saying that the aorist and the imperfect function the same and they do not. The aorist does NOT speak of action “in progress” as you say. It indicates completed action in past time. What you are peddling is Paladinian Greek and not new testament Greek. Therefore, your entire commentary on Philippians 2 is blatantly false! Again, show your source.
thinker
Tell me somethng thinker;In the following verses, which is the past tense?
John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.In the phrase “that ye may know,” the word “Know” is “gnwte”
gnwte is Subjunctive aorist active, but it certainly is NOT past tense.
The GREEK HAS NO PAST TENSE. It is TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH past tense, but that is not the same thing, because here is one of many exceptions, where it is NOT translated into English past tense.
I do not say this to cause you distress, I say this to help you understand where I am coming from.
Look at it again, and consider –
“though ye believe not me, believe the works: THAT YE MAY KNOW, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
“That ye may know” is in no way considered “past tense” but it is Greek Subjunctive Aorist.
A.T.Robertson has several pages on this subject. And that is just ONE of many Greek sources materials.
Hi TC,
For us there is one God the Father… and one Lord Jesus Christ.
True worshipers worship the Father..What was your question again?
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 03 2009,13:36) Marty, What about Titus 2:13? God AND Savior Jesus Christ?
TC27
Hi:KJV reads:
Quote Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; It probably should have a comma after God in that sentence. God is a Spirit and the Body of Christ is the Holy temple of God, and Jesus is God's representative and is being sent by God.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ July 03 2009,13:08) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 03 2009,11:48) Marty, Jesus was called God by God himself. So why shouldn't you call him your God.
Hebrews 1:9-10
Quote 9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[f] 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.In this passage Jesus is CLEARLY being referred to as God. Also, you can clearly see that he laid the foundations of the earth. Jesus did that and so did God. Therefore Jesus is God because we do not have two creators!
TC27
Hi:I don't call him my God because he is not. There is only “One God”.
He is God in that he is the express image of God's person (Hebrews 1:3). God is a spirit of Love, and Jesus exemplified this through the life that Jesus lived in obedience to God.
In the following scripture, God calls does call His Son God, and so, let's look at the scripture:
Quote 8 But to the Son He says:
“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[g]These scriptures are referring to exaltation of Jesus to his position as head of the church, and God calls “THE SON” God, and it appears to me that the reason that He calls him God is reveled in verse 9 which states:
Quote 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[I admit that I have difficulty with Hebrews 1:10.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Paul applied Hebrews 1:10 from psalm 102 to Jesus but the issue I have with it is the person speaking is not God but a prayer to God. Also in Hebrews before verse 10 starts only a single word “and” is inserted so it appears that God is saying one continuous thing from Hebrews 9 connected to 10Psalm 102
23 He weakened my strength in the way;
He shortened my days.
24 I said, “O my God,
Do not take me away in the midst of my days;
Your years are throughout all generations.
25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
26 They will perish, but You will endure;
Yes, they will all grow old like a garment;
Like a cloak You will change them,
And they will be changed.
27 But You are the same,
And Your years will have no end.
28 The children of Your servants will continue,
And their descendants will be established before You.”Hi BD,
Is it not amazing how the Spirit of God reveals new truths in the old through the servants of God?
While men try to put God in a box he continues to reveal much more of His deep and glorious wisdom.
You need to tap into the wisdom through one called the Wisdom of God, Jesus Christ of NazarethQuote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,17:59) Hi TC,
For us there is one God the Father… and one Lord Jesus Christ.
True worshipers worship the Father..What was your question again?
Nick,My true question to you was if you worship Jesus, because if you do, then you contradict your own faith.
TC27
Quote (942767 @ July 02 2009,18:15) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 03 2009,13:36) Marty, What about Titus 2:13? God AND Savior Jesus Christ?
TC27
Hi:KJV reads:
Quote Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; It probably should have a comma after God in that sentence. God is a Spirit and the Body of Christ is the Holy temple of God, and Jesus is God's representative and is being sent by God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,BUT there is no comma. You can say there should be this, or there should be that. However, that changes nothing. There is still no comma there. If you can show me a comma in the greek? If there is no comma, what makes you think that God didn't intent for it to be read that way? There have been translation errors over the years, but never anything that alters the gospel.
TC27
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