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Nick,
I am not saying I believe God cloned himself. I am merely using it as an illustration to say that Marty is making no sense. God did not need to be cloned because Jesus existed with him in the beginning. I was showing a silly point that Marty made.
TC27
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 09 2009,14:15) Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 10 2009,00:30) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 09 2009,16:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,16:21) Hi BD,
The NT aligns with the OT.
But in Jesus is found grace to fulfil.
That's true.
we all need jesus and thomas even said my Lord and my God
Even Keith (WJ) is willing to say that there are things not told of Jesus' life – the books could not contain all that would be there.What of this scene between Thomas and Jesus….what if body language played a part? Indulge me for a moment. Let me paint a potential scene for you:
Thomas is brought to his knees when he sees his Master, Jesus, come through the door after he had been crucified. Thomas raised both hands towards him and says, “My Lord!”. He was so excited to see him! And then out of praise to God for brining his Master back, he raises his hands towards heaven and exclaims, “and my God!”. Meaning, thank you God!.
Hmmmm? Could it have happened this way? Of course it could have – we weren't there. Had the boys or Thomas ever called Jesus “God” before? If so, where?
Thanks,
Mandy
Hi MandyThe problem with your inference is the literal translation is “The Lord of me and the God of me”.
You forget that John penned this and could have very easily clarified this. But he clearly wrote “and said unto him” not them!
Again this is the problem with antitrinitarians, is they cannot just take the scriptures for what they say without all the oppologetics and explaining away.
John starts his Gospel “The Word was with God and the Word was God, and the context clearly shows who the Word is. John 1:14
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,12:16) Hi TC,
Do you agree with TT that God has several parts and one part died?
Nick,I believe that Jesus' body died but that his spirit was in Hades until the time of his bodily resurrection. He spirit was alive in Hades.
TC27
Hi TC,
His spirit left him at calvary.[mt 27,50 etc]
The spirit of men leave them and return to God at death[ecc12]
He was yet alive in the abiding Spirit of eternal life given to him and is the source of that life for us.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,12:51) Hi TC,
His spirit left him at calvary.[mt 27,50 etc]
The spirit of men leave them and return to God at death[ecc12]
He was yet alive in the abiding Spirit of eternal life given to him and is the source of that life for us.
Nick,The spirit left the body. That makes the body dead. The spirit lives on after the death of the body. Jesus as a spirit did not die, but the body in which he was dwelling, did.
TC27
Hi TC,
So a body can be dead without the spirit.[jas]Of course Jesus and his brothers also are alive in the Spirit of God.[rom8.16]
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 10 2009,09:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,12:51) Hi TC,
His spirit left him at calvary.[mt 27,50 etc]
The spirit of men leave them and return to God at death[ecc12]
He was yet alive in the abiding Spirit of eternal life given to him and is the source of that life for us.
Nick,The spirit left the body. That makes the body dead. The spirit lives on after the death of the body. Jesus as a spirit did not die, but the body in which he was dwelling, did.
TC27
So how did Jesus take your place? Aren't you still going to die physically?Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 10 2009,08:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,12:16) Hi TC,
Do you agree with TT that God has several parts and one part died?
Nick,I believe that Jesus' body died but that his spirit was in Hades until the time of his bodily resurrection. He spirit was alive in Hades.
TC27
His spirit was alive in dirt?Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 10 2009,08:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,12:16) Hi TC,
Do you agree with TT that God has several parts and one part died?
Nick,I believe that Jesus' body died but that his spirit was in Hades until the time of his bodily resurrection. He spirit was alive in Hades.
TC27
What exactly do you think the spirit is?I think I am going to start a new thread on this.
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 10 2009,12:24) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 10 2009,09:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,12:51) Hi TC,
His spirit left him at calvary.[mt 27,50 etc]
The spirit of men leave them and return to God at death[ecc12]
He was yet alive in the abiding Spirit of eternal life given to him and is the source of that life for us.
Nick,The spirit left the body. That makes the body dead. The spirit lives on after the death of the body. Jesus as a spirit did not die, but the body in which he was dwelling, did.
TC27
So how did Jesus take your place? Aren't you still going to die physically?
HGi BD,
We die in baptism.[Jn6]The Spirit never leaves or forsakes us even when our spirit returns to God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2009,13:19) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 10 2009,12:24) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 10 2009,09:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,12:51) Hi TC,
His spirit left him at calvary.[mt 27,50 etc]
The spirit of men leave them and return to God at death[ecc12]
He was yet alive in the abiding Spirit of eternal life given to him and is the source of that life for us.
Nick,The spirit left the body. That makes the body dead. The spirit lives on after the death of the body. Jesus as a spirit did not die, but the body in which he was dwelling, did.
TC27
So how did Jesus take your place? Aren't you still going to die physically?
HGi BD,
We die in baptism.[Jn6]The Spirit never leaves or forsakes us even when our spirit returns to God.
I have no reason to disagree with your statement but it was not the question asked.Hi BD,
Of course in following Jesus the flesh tent is pulled down to return to the earth which owns it.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2009,13:26) Hi BD,
Of course in following Jesus the flesh tent is pulled down to return to the earth which owns it.
Then exactly how did Jesus take your place?Bod,
Jesus died, but he also rose from the dead.
We will follow him.He took our place because he conquered death!
Though we die physically (as Jesus did), we no longer remain in the grave…but we will be resurrected now.
Death could not hold Jesus, and therefore as we are *also* children of God, it cannot hold us either.I know you didn't ask me this question, just my 2 cents.
Love,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ July 10 2009,13:33) Bod, Jesus died, but he also rose from the dead.
We will follow him.He took our place because he conquered death!
Though we die physically (as Jesus did), we no longer remain in the grave…but we will be resurrected now.
Death could not hold Jesus, and therefore as we are *also* children of God, it cannot hold us either.I know you didn't ask me this question, just my 2 cents.
Love,
Mandy
Your 2 cents are always welcome Mandy
Your answer doesn't seem correct because Jesus said before he was raised that:
Matthew 22 (King James Version)
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
So how did Jesus take your place? He is not being punished eternally or even a little bit and you will die just like everyone else. Jesus in the scripture above states the resurrection as a pre-Jesus fact so in what way did Jesus take your place?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2009,13:39) Hi BD,
Jesus was the scapegoat.
The body is of earth and death.
It cannot inherit the kingdom of God
Nick,The Scapegoat doesn't die.
Jesus is the scapegoat and he never died nor was he crucified.
Hi not3,
Yes Jesus too had to die.
Death comes to all man and after that the Judgement.
Jesus provided a way for the salvation of the Soul which is the aim[1Peter 1.9]
The Shepherd and Guardian of our souls as sheep in the flock of God, is Jesus Christ[1Peter 2.25]He is the chief Shepherd and he will return for his sheep.[1Peter5.4]
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2009,13:39) Hi BD,
Jesus was the scapegoat.
The body is of earth and death.
It cannot inherit the kingdom of God
Hi Nick,I think that you are wrong in this.
Once again I want to look at 1 Corinthians 15
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
Now let's remember that this is written by Paul after the resurrection of Jesus, for Jesus was born with flesh just like man that was able to deteriorate and die. So when it says the second man is the Lord from heaven I believe it is specifically referring not to when Jesus was born of a woman, but when he was became firstborn of the dead.
First the natural body then the spiritual BODY.
Lu 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed– 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O Death, where is your sting? 55 O Hades, where is your victory?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The difference between the natural body and the spiritual body is that the spiritual body cannot deteriorate, take on disease, sickness, or die. When man is in the natural body his mind is chained to his flesh to serve it.
Ro 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
Heb 2:15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
When Jesus was resurrected he was set free from that bondage. In the Kingdom of God all creatures will be set free from death. The wolf and the bear will no longer be wild and they will eat grass. No creature will live by natural instincts that drive them to survive. Animals will not be territorial and fight or kill for a mate, which man himself has been known to do. Man and animals will no longer live with the instinct of fight or flight. Man will have a glorious body ridden of the process of death and it will free his mind opening it to be fully faithful and excited to follow God's way.
God is a great designer, and the human body is a great design, I don't believe that God wants to rid that body all together, He wants to change it by giving it LIFE, eternal life.
Wonderful and awesome things are coming with an immortal body and a freed mind that is ready to follow the great intelligence of YHWH. I can see it, I can almost taste what it will be like, and it makes me desperately long for Christ's return everyday.
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