Attn anti-trinitarians: another us verse

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,13:31)

Hi TC,. You should not use the bible but let it use and teach you. There is no God of three parts or three persons taught in it. But then you may prefer to follow men and their traditions but why?

Nick,

Tell me something. How is my interpretation on Titus 2:13 a following of man? Is not my belief in accordance with the verse? You would disagree with me on this belief, but you have still, after two weeks, not told me how I am wrong in my understanding. Please, do tell me how I follow man with my view on this verse.

TC27

[942767]

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,08:29)

Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,16:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,11:18) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,10:50) Quote Hi TC: He was “fully God, and fully man”.  Where is that scripture? He is God in that he is the express image of God's person.  God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the “last Adam”. And so, Jesus said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”.  How so?  By the works that he did in obedience to God. No, he is not just any man.  He is the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God. Love in Christ, Marty That Scripture is all throughout the Bible. If the Bible says that Jesus is man, then he is. If the Bible says that Jesus is God (which it does in Titus 2:13 and other passages) then he is. Therefore, we can infer that if he is man, and if he is God, that he is both. TC27 Hi TC, Jesus said he is the Son of God but somehow that statement is ignored in the lofty world of inference and logic. Hi TC: There is a scripture in which God call the Son of God “God”, but there is no scripture which states that Jesus is God. God has revealed to us who Jesus is in Matthew 16. And there is a scripture which states that there is “one God” and mediator between God and man, “the man” Christ Jesus. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, You admit that there is a verse that calls the Son of God, God. Then you say that the Bible never says that Jesus is God. What a contradiction if I ever saw one. Tell me how this is suppose to make sense. If the Son of God is called God, then the Bible is saying that Jesus is God. TC27

Hi TC:

No, contradiction, the bible does not say that Jesus is God in the sense that trinitarians say that he is.

He is God in that he is the express image of God's person. God made man in His own image. Jesus is the last Adam.

The first man Adam was made a living soul like God in that he has a mind, a will, and emotions. The last Adam is like God in that he is a spirit of love, and so, Jesus is God in that through obedience to the Word of God, he, through the life that he lives, manifests the love of God for humanity through what he has done.

But God is much greater than just these attributes. He is the source of the whole universe, and everything in it, and the source of all wisdom.

And so, that is what I have meant by saying that there is no scripture saying that Jesus is God. Perhaps, I should have added “in the sense that trinitarians say that he is God”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,09:41)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,13:31) Hi TC,. You should not use the bible but let it use and teach you. There is no God of three parts or three persons taught in it. But then you may prefer to follow men and their traditions but why? Nick, Tell me something. How is my interpretation on Titus 2:13 a following of man? Is not my belief in accordance with the verse? You would disagree with me on this belief, but you have still, after two weeks, not told me how I am wrong in my understanding. Please, do tell me how I follow man with my view on this verse. TC27

Hi TC,
Does what you think you have found reflect anything from the plain simple teaching of Jesus and the prophets?

If not then you have probably misunderstood it.

 When Jesus told us to dig deep and build on his teachings he meant what he said.

But the way to perdition is wide and very popular.

[Not3in1]

Quote (thethinker @ July 08 2009,20:11)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 08 2009,18:20) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,10:45) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 07 2009,09:49) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,05:45) Everyone, Why would Jesus say this to the devil if he was not God? Matthew 4:7 Quote Jesus said to him, “It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'” We all know that JESUS was the one being tempted here. So why would he pull out a phrase saying you shall not tempt the Lord you God, if he was not God? The Father was not the one being tempted, but Jesus. So if Jesus is not God, then his statement to the devil is invalid. TC27 Read it again, please.  Satan is asking Jesus – to ask God – to do things for him.  Jesus tells Satan that that would be tempting God. Mandy, I did read it again and I was mistaken. I do admit that i read it too eagerly. I am certain that you are correct in this instance and therefore take that argument back. I still do believe in the trinity and one mistake on a verse will not change my mind. I do thank you for your patience with me. TC27 TC, First of all, thank you for your post.  I was encouraged by your honesty.  Listen bro, I've been where you are….searching those scriptures to cling to whatever I could that sounded like the Trinity doctrine that I had been raised on.  I wanted it to be true.  I needed it to be true.  And then I didn't need it to be true any longer.  I just wanted God, and the truth. I've figured out that you can make the scriptures say almost anything that you want them to.  Just take a look at this board!  We have Keith, a Trinitarian brother, who puts for a strong argument for his case (very compelling, indeed).  Then you have other's who also argue their cases against his ideas – they also seem correct.  Scripture is, well, bendable, if you ask me.  Just pray, and listen….. On that Day, we all will know.  Until then, love one another.  That's what I try to do. Love you, Mandy Mandy, You have indicated in the past that you think that trinitarians are judgmental people and I was thinking that you are anti-trinitarian for the sake of being anti-trinitarian. Everyone is judgmental. It is the anti-trinitarians here who call us “apostates” “ungodly” “antichrists” etc. t8 said that he is against ANYTHING that causes division in the body of Christ. This web site causes division. Ergo…. Anti-trinitarians have this notion that they are exempt from the sinful nature. Anyone who has a sinful nature will be prone to division. We hung out in our little “clicks” when we were children and we do the same now. And why have you not noticed that the anti-trinitarians here pit the Scriptures against themselves? The trinitarians do not do this. They do not deny that Christ was under God at one time. They tell the whole story of Jesus which says that He was exalted again. But the anti-trinitarians here emphasize the scriptures which speak about Christ's submission to the exclusion of His exaltation. For example, Bod just recently said that God exalted Jesus so that every kneee should bow and that every knee should confess that He is Lord. Bod manipulated Paul's use of a conditional verb to get out of the plain fact that we are REQUIRED to bow to Jesus and confess that he is Lord. Bod said we “should” bow and not that we MUST bow. The WHOLE story is that Jesus was under God but is now at His right hand. Not above or below God. This is the WHOLE story! thinker

Thinker,

I haven't a clue why you responded to this thread between TC and I? I'm also not sure what you're going on and on about? I do notice, however, that you are using a lot of labeling of brother's and sister's (“trinitarians” and “anti-trinitarians”). Do you enjoy putting us in different boxes?

I happend to dig quite a few “Trinitarians” on this board. I'm not so covinced that they have it wrong!!! I used to be a “Trinitarian”. I used to be a “Unitarian”, although I've never been a “Librarian”…. I kill me.

You'll have to show me where I've been judgemental, and give me a chance to either defend, or ask for forgiveness. Again, I have no clue what your talking about?

The goal – salvation of our souls!! Press on, bro!

Love,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (thethinker @ July 08 2009,19:48)

You cannot prove your disctinction between God and the Son of God until you first demonstrate your Western defintion of the term “Son” in reference to Jesus is correct.

With all due respect, say what??

Can any of us prove that we are “correct” in any of our theories? Who, in your opinion, has the “correct” opinion on this board?

How do you determine who is correct and who is not? Everyone has equally compelling arguments.

Can you give me a working Western definition of the term “Son” in ref to Jesus Christ? I'll start from there.

Thanks,
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Clerarly SON cannot mean Son if you want to paint Jesus as God.
He said he is the son of God.

Strident competing voices continue to shout him down.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ July 09 2009,06:26)

bodhitharta said: Quote I manipulated a conditional verb? Why is it when I show you scripture that you don't like, you assign authorship to me? So, let me ask you this, If I said to someone your Mom and Dad have done so much for you and shown you so much love that you should do anything they want you should even kill everyone who speaks against them. Is that a directive or a statement showing their value and importance? If I take the conditional verb out I am saying something quite extraordinarily different. I would then be saying “Do” anything they ask and “Kill everyone who speaks against them” Don't take expressions of passion as commands otherwise you'll be getting slapped on both sides of your face and giving away your coat when someone asks you for less. bd, You don't know what you are talking about. I pointed out to you that Paul was referring to Isaiah 45 which says that every knee SHALL bow. There is no English equivalent of the conditional verb in the Greek. So it must be interpreted according to sense. According to Isaiah God swore by an oath that every knee SHALL bow to Jesus and every tongue SHALL confess. Isaiah said that the oath shall not return to God. This means that every knee SHALL bow and that every tongue SHALL confess. Quote I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee SHALL bow…. Paul applied this prophecy to Jesus. Again, you don't know what you are talking about. thinker

Isaiah 45 (King James Version)

22Turn to Me, and be saved, all ends of the earth, For I [am] God, and there is none else.

23By Myself I have sworn, Gone out from my mouth in righteousness hath a word, And it turneth not back, That to Me, bow doth every knee, every tongue swear.

24Only in Jehovah, said hath one, Have I righteousness and strength, Unto Him he cometh in, And ashamed are all those displeased with Him.

25In Jehovah are all the seed of Israel justified, And they boast themselves.'

Please stop making things up the scripture clearly says that To Jehovah every knee shall bow. This has nothing to do with Jesus. Jehovah is saying that He is the only one that is called God and there is none else, you don't believe Jehovah you believe that two others are called God.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ July 09 2009,06:48)

bodhitharta said to WJ: Quote Paul says that God “is” The Father not simply that the Father is God and he is calling the risen Jesus “Christ” bd, God is the Father in relation to His people. In relation to the Theotes it is not correct to say that God is Father. The Father is God in this respect. The Father is just one part of the Theotes. So when we say that God is not the Father we refer to the Theotes. thinker

The scripture says that God is The Father, it didn't say according to…. You are simply making up anything you can think of other than be obedient to the scriptures that you say you believe in.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,08:41)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 07 2009,22:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,17:10) BTW where is Mohamad at in all of this? WJ The Quran is clear that Jesus worshipped God alone and did not associate partners with Him. The Quran also is clear that Jesus is of those nearest to God. The Quran also is clear that Jesus will be cleared of all those falsehoods attributed to Him and his purity will be preserved and Jesus himself will testify against those the people of those falsehoods. The bible already tells you that Jesus will declare to the ones that say 'Lord, lord” but do not do the Will of his Father, he will say “I do not know you” I have no doubt you want to do the right thing but the question is, do you love your doctrine more than you love Jesus? Bod, The Bible is the only book of truth. To use the Quran for your own arguments sake is low. If you ask me, I at least use the Bible and believe in it above all else, and to be the one who is called an apostate is beyond me. Bod uses the Quran and I am the one who is called indoctrinated. WOW, this is very interesting. TC27

Is there any scripture that says that the bible is the only book of truth?

Or for that matter any prophecy or any information in the bible at all that claims that there is no other prophets coming or there will be no other scriptures.

The bible itself is a collection of books and not all of Christianity uses the same amount of book there are some bibles with 66 book another with 73 and another with maybe 76 so don't be too quick to judge other books.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
If you do not come to the door of Jesus you will never discern light from darkness.
You will see all books as according to dim human light.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,14:42)

Hi BD, If you do not come to the door of Jesus you will never discern light from darkness. You will see all books as according to dim human light.

I have already went through the door I'm still waiting for you on the other side my friend.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Why do you cling to the OT when it cannot save you and reject the NT and the salvation in Jesus.
Or is it just that you have other motives for trying to play one off against the other?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,14:53)

Hi BD, Why do you cling to the OT when it cannot save you and reject the NT and the salvation in Jesus. Or is it just that you have other motives for trying to play one off against the other?

There is no new testament according to Jews and there is no Quran according to you and most Christians so the question of rejection is for you I don't reject any of the word of God but you do.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
So you take the view of the Jews in rejecting Jesus and your own view to uphold the words of a stranger? Do you have any more solid foundations than opinion?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,15:02)

Hi BD, So you take the view of the Jews in rejecting Jesus and your own view to uphold the words of a stranger?  Do you have any more solid foundations than opinion?

You are doing the same rejecting that the Jews did regarding Muhammad and The Quran yet now that you are doing the rejecting it seems right to you.

Proverbs 14:11-13 (King James Version)

11 The house of the wicked shall be overthrown: but the tabernacle of the upright shall flourish.

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

[NickHassan]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 09 2009,14:52)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,14:42) Hi BD, If you do not come to the door of Jesus you will never discern light from darkness. You will see all books as according to dim human light. I have already went through the door I'm still waiting for you on the other side my friend.

Hi BD,
If you are reborn into Jesus why have you accepted another master and his teachings?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
The NT gives light to the OT.
Old wine however is always preferred to new.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,15:11)

Hi BD, The NT gives light to the OT. Old wine however is always preferred to new.

That is why you won't accept the Quran

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Why would we?
We have a shepherd who feeds us well.
Strangers words resonant with death do not entice

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,15:11)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 09 2009,14:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,14:42) Hi BD, If you do not come to the door of Jesus you will never discern light from darkness. You will see all books as according to dim human light. I have already went through the door I'm still waiting for you on the other side my friend. Hi BD, If you are reborn into Jesus why have you accepted another master and his teachings?

The fact is you have accepted Paul after accepting Jesus and their teachings are not the same. The Quran teaches what Jesus taught and the entire Quran is properly based in the theme that Jesus taught because Jesus taught the unadulterated word of God.

Reading the Quran is like sitting down and having a one on one with Jesus.

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