Attn anti-trinitarians: another us verse

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,02:28)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,17:37) Being slippery? How about you guys being honest? The same Paul that you are speaking of said… while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our “GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST“, Titus 2:13 And also… For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and “DENY JESUS CHRIST OUR ONLY SOVEREIGN AND LORD“. Jude 1:4 So is Jesus your ONLY SOVEREIGN AND LORD, BD? Jesus said you can't serve 2 masters? WJ You serve 3 masters You admit that Jesus is not The Father You admit that the Father is not The Holy Spirit You admit that The Holy Spirit is not Jesus You worship The Father = 1 Master You worship Jesus = 2nd Master You worship The Holy Spirit = 3 Masters So if you say that Jesus is your only Sovereign and Lord and the only One you Worship it proves what we have been saying: You don't worship The Father who Jesus says is the Only True God and if you do worship all three then you have convicted yourself by your own words because you have 3 Masters. God Bless you always.

Hi BD

No I'm not at all!

Total misrepresentation of the Trinitarian view.

There is One God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are One.

You should take it up with the Apostles and Paul who calls Jesus their God!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 08 2009,02:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,17:10) Why do the anti-trinitarians create in their minds a Jesus that is less than the “image of the invisible God? Jesus is no longer walking in the flesh! Hey bro, I don't have an image in my mind that Jesus is less than the image of his Father!?  Jesus is God's boy.  And what do you mean, “Jesus is no longer walking in the flesh!”? What are the scriptures that back that up, please?  Thanks. Love, Mandy

Hi Mandy

There is no scripture that calls Jesus Gods boy!

The implication is Jesus is a child and not a full grown Son!

As far as Jesus being in the flesh, his Body has been glorified and is now a Spiritual Body like ours will be in that day.

No flesh can inherit the Kingdom of God!

Yet all the fulness of Deity resides in Jesus body!

BTW, If you see Jesus who is “the image of the invisible God” as a mere man, then you see the Father as a mere man!

Blessings WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,02:36)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,17:10) BTW where is Mohamad at in all of this? WJ The Quran is clear that Jesus worshipped God alone and did not associate partners with Him. The Quran also is clear that Jesus is of those nearest to God. The Quran also is clear that Jesus will be cleared of all those falsehoods attributed to Him and his purity will be preserved and Jesus himself will testify against those the people of those falsehoods. The bible already tells you that Jesus will declare to the ones that say 'Lord, lord” but do not do the Will of his Father, he will say “I do not know you” I have no doubt you want to do the right thing but the question is, do you love your doctrine more than you love Jesus?

Hi BD

I know in whom I have believed and I am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed to him against that day! Who wrote that and who is he describing?

I love God and all of the scriptures including those which call Jesus God!

How about you?

Would you become a “Bond slave” for Jesus at any cost?

Do you know that kind of devotion to any being other than God would be idolatry?

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 08 2009,18:12)

Quote (thethinker @ July 08 2009,08:03) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 08 2009,05:29) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,05:23) If Jesus is not God, then why do you worship him? TC27 Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.” The boys worshipped him because he was the Son of God.  Not because he was God. If there was a distinction in their minds between the Son of God and God then they would not worshiped Him at all. Therefore, your disctinction between Son of God and God is circular. thinker Thinker, I think your over-thinking this.   How can we possibly know what the boys were thinking?  Truly!  But of course they wouldn't worship anyone but the Father.  That is why in some translations this word for worship is translated “homage”.  Check it out for yourself, I don't have the interest really in tracking it down.  There really are some good discussions here on it though. Love, Mandy

Mandy,
I am not over thinking anything. You assume that the Son is not God and then argue from that premise. This is circular. However, Psalm 2 makes it clear that the Son was merely an office and the Jews knew this. They knew also that Psalm 2 said to serve Jehovah with fear which meant that they were to “kiss the Son.” They were not expecting God to have a “Son” according to the Western concept of the term. Why do you think that John said that Jesus made Himself equal with God when He claimed He was the Son? And why do you think the author to the Hebrews refers to Christ as both “Son” and “God ” and attributes creation to Him (Heb. 1:1-10)?

You cannot prove your disctinction between God and the Son of God until you first demonstrate your Western defintion of the term “Son” in reference to Jesus is correct.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
So there is no distinction between the Father and the Son?
That puts the equality issue to bed

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 08 2009,18:20)

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,10:45) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 07 2009,09:49) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,05:45) Everyone, Why would Jesus say this to the devil if he was not God? Matthew 4:7 Quote Jesus said to him, “It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'” We all know that JESUS was the one being tempted here. So why would he pull out a phrase saying you shall not tempt the Lord you God, if he was not God? The Father was not the one being tempted, but Jesus. So if Jesus is not God, then his statement to the devil is invalid. TC27 Read it again, please.  Satan is asking Jesus – to ask God – to do things for him.  Jesus tells Satan that that would be tempting God. Mandy, I did read it again and I was mistaken. I do admit that i read it too eagerly. I am certain that you are correct in this instance and therefore take that argument back. I still do believe in the trinity and one mistake on a verse will not change my mind. I do thank you for your patience with me. TC27 TC, First of all, thank you for your post.  I was encouraged by your honesty.  Listen bro, I've been where you are….searching those scriptures to cling to whatever I could that sounded like the Trinity doctrine that I had been raised on.  I wanted it to be true.  I needed it to be true.  And then I didn't need it to be true any longer.  I just wanted God, and the truth. I've figured out that you can make the scriptures say almost anything that you want them to.  Just take a look at this board!  We have Keith, a Trinitarian brother, who puts for a strong argument for his case (very compelling, indeed).  Then you have other's who also argue their cases against his ideas – they also seem correct.  Scripture is, well, bendable, if you ask me.  Just pray, and listen….. On that Day, we all will know.  Until then, love one another.  That's what I try to do. Love you, Mandy

Mandy,
You have indicated in the past that you think that trinitarians are judgmental people and I was thinking that you are anti-trinitarian for the sake of being anti-trinitarian. Everyone is judgmental. It is the anti-trinitarians here who call us “apostates” “ungodly” “antichrists” etc.

t8 said that he is against ANYTHING that causes division in the body of Christ. This web site causes division. Ergo…. Anti-trinitarians have this notion that they are exempt from the sinful nature. Anyone who has a sinful nature will be prone to division. We hung out in our little “clicks” when we were children and we do the same now.

And why have you not noticed that the anti-trinitarians here pit the Scriptures against themselves? The trinitarians do not do this. They do not deny that Christ was under God at one time. They tell the whole story of Jesus which says that He was exalted again. But the anti-trinitarians here emphasize the scriptures which speak about Christ's submission to the exclusion of His exaltation. For example, Bod just recently said that God exalted Jesus so that every kneee should bow and that every knee should confess that He is Lord. Bod manipulated Paul's use of a conditional verb to get out of the plain fact that we are REQUIRED to bow to Jesus and confess that he is Lord. Bod said we “should” bow and not that we MUST bow.

The WHOLE story is that Jesus was under God but is now at His right hand. Not above or below God. This is the WHOLE story!

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
So he was not God.
Tell WJ.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,19:17)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,02:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,17:37) Being slippery? How about you guys being honest? The same Paul that you are speaking of said… while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our “GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST“, Titus 2:13 And also… For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and “DENY JESUS CHRIST OUR ONLY SOVEREIGN AND LORD“. Jude 1:4 So is Jesus your ONLY SOVEREIGN AND LORD, BD? Jesus said you can't serve 2 masters? WJ You serve 3 masters You admit that Jesus is not The Father You admit that the Father is not The Holy Spirit You admit that The Holy Spirit is not Jesus You worship The Father = 1 Master You worship Jesus = 2nd Master You worship The Holy Spirit = 3 Masters So if you say that Jesus is your only Sovereign and Lord and the only One you Worship it proves what we have been saying: You don't worship The Father who Jesus says is the Only True God and if you do worship all three then you have convicted yourself by your own words because you have 3 Masters. God Bless you always. Hi BD No I not at all! Total misrepresentation of the Trinitarian view. There is One God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are One. You should take it up with the Apostles and Paul who calls Jesus their God! WJ

You said Jesus is your only Sovereign and Lord

You didn't say that God is your only sovereign and Lord

You said that you believe that God is The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit if that is the case you cannot say that Jesus is your Sovereign Lord because remember your own words that God is not Jesus

This is your view when you speak of “God” you are always talking about The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit because they are one, right?

your view is God is not The Father but the Father has His own will, right?

God is not Jesus but Jesus has his own will, right?

God is not The Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit has “his” own will, right

Is Jesus your lord and God?
Is The Father your lord and God?
Is The Holy Spirit your lord and God?

now after you say yes to all three of those questions you are going to say “yes, but they are all one lord and God”

Then I'm going to ask again about them having seperate wills since Jesus declared “not my Will, but yours Father”

Does God have One Will or 3

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,19:26)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,02:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,17:10) BTW where is Mohamad at in all of this? WJ The Quran is clear that Jesus worshipped God alone and did not associate partners with Him. The Quran also is clear that Jesus is of those nearest to God. The Quran also is clear that Jesus will be cleared of all those falsehoods attributed to Him and his purity will be preserved and Jesus himself will testify against those the people of those falsehoods. The bible already tells you that Jesus will declare to the ones that say 'Lord, lord” but do not do the Will of his Father, he will say “I do not know you” I have no doubt you want to do the right thing but the question is, do you love your doctrine more than you love Jesus? Hi BD I know in whom I have believed and I am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed to him against that day! Who wrote that and who is he describing? I love God and all of the scriptures including those which call Jesus God! How about you? Would you become a “Bond slave” for Jesus at any cost? Do you know that kind of devotion to any being other than God would be idolatry? WJ

WJ,

Bless you, You do indeed want the truth and so you are leading yourself to it and that is good.

Remember you said that God is not the Father but instead the Father is God so there is no turning back from that statement.

But the scripture you asked me to identify comes from timothy in which Paul is writing to him and look:

2 Timothy 1 (King James Version)

2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul says that God “is” The Father not simply that the Father is God and he is calling the risen Jesus “Christ”

in other words Paul is saying that

Christ is Jesus
God is Father

now to answer part 2 of your question

8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

These verses show that Paul is saying that “God” as described by him earlier as God The Father has saved us and he has commited to God to preach the testimony of Christ

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ July 08 2009,20:11)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 08 2009,18:20) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,10:45) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 07 2009,09:49) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,05:45) Everyone, Why would Jesus say this to the devil if he was not God? Matthew 4:7 Quote Jesus said to him, “It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'” We all know that JESUS was the one being tempted here. So why would he pull out a phrase saying you shall not tempt the Lord you God, if he was not God? The Father was not the one being tempted, but Jesus. So if Jesus is not God, then his statement to the devil is invalid. TC27 Read it again, please.  Satan is asking Jesus – to ask God – to do things for him.  Jesus tells Satan that that would be tempting God. Mandy, I did read it again and I was mistaken. I do admit that i read it too eagerly. I am certain that you are correct in this instance and therefore take that argument back. I still do believe in the trinity and one mistake on a verse will not change my mind. I do thank you for your patience with me. TC27 TC, First of all, thank you for your post.  I was encouraged by your honesty.  Listen bro, I've been where you are….searching those scriptures to cling to whatever I could that sounded like the Trinity doctrine that I had been raised on.  I wanted it to be true.  I needed it to be true.  And then I didn't need it to be true any longer.  I just wanted God, and the truth. I've figured out that you can make the scriptures say almost anything that you want them to.  Just take a look at this board!  We have Keith, a Trinitarian brother, who puts for a strong argument for his case (very compelling, indeed).  Then you have other's who also argue their cases against his ideas – they also seem correct.  Scripture is, well, bendable, if you ask me.  Just pray, and listen….. On that Day, we all will know.  Until then, love one another.  That's what I try to do. Love you, Mandy Mandy, You have indicated in the past that you think that trinitarians are judgmental people and I was thinking that you are anti-trinitarian for the sake of being anti-trinitarian. Everyone is judgmental. It is the anti-trinitarians here who call us “apostates” “ungodly” “antichrists” etc. t8 said that he is against ANYTHING that causes division in the body of Christ. This web site causes division. Ergo…. Anti-trinitarians have this notion that they are exempt from the sinful nature. Anyone who has a sinful nature will be prone to division. We hung out in our little “clicks” when we were children and we do the same now. And why have you not noticed that the anti-trinitarians here pit the Scriptures against themselves? The trinitarians do not do this. They do not deny that Christ was under God at one time. They tell the whole story of Jesus which says that He was exalted again. But the anti-trinitarians here emphasize the scriptures which speak about Christ's submission to the exclusion of His exaltation. For example, Bod just recently said that God exalted Jesus so that every kneee should bow and that every knee should confess that He is Lord. Bod manipulated Paul's use of a conditional verb to get out of the plain fact that we are REQUIRED to bow to Jesus and confess that he is Lord. Bod said we “should” bow and not that we MUST bow. The WHOLE story is that Jesus was under God but is now at His right hand. Not above or below God. This is the WHOLE story! thinker

I manipulated a conditional verb? Why is it when I show you scripture that you don't like, you assign authorship to me?

So, let me ask you this, If I said to someone your Mom and Dad have done so much for you and shown you so much love that you should do anything they want you should even kill everyone who speaks against them.

Is that a directive or a statement showing their value and importance?

If I take the conditional verb out I am saying something quite extraordinarily different. I would then be saying “Do” anything they ask and “Kill everyone who speaks against them”

Don't take expressions of passion as commands otherwise you'll be getting slapped on both sides of your face and giving away your coat when someone asks you for less.

[KangarooJack]

bodhitharta said:

Quote

I manipulated a conditional verb? Why is it when I show you scripture that you don't like, you assign authorship to me? So, let me ask you this, If I said to someone your Mom and Dad have done so much for you and shown you so much love that you should do anything they want you should even kill everyone who speaks against them. Is that a directive or a statement showing their value and importance? If I take the conditional verb out I am saying something quite extraordinarily different. I would then be saying “Do” anything they ask and “Kill everyone who speaks against them” Don't take expressions of passion as commands otherwise you'll be getting slapped on both sides of your face and giving away your coat when someone asks you for less.

bd,
You don't know what you are talking about. I pointed out to you that Paul was referring to Isaiah 45 which says that every knee SHALL bow. There is no English equivalent of the conditional verb in the Greek. So it must be interpreted according to sense. According to Isaiah God swore by an oath that every knee SHALL bow to Jesus and every tongue SHALL confess. Isaiah said that the oath shall not return to God. This means that every knee SHALL bow and that every tongue SHALL confess.

Quote

I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee SHALL bow….

Paul applied this prophecy to Jesus. Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

bodhitharta said to WJ:

Quote

Paul says that God “is” The Father not simply that the Father is God and he is calling the risen Jesus “Christ”

bd,
God is the Father in relation to His people. In relation to the Theotes it is not correct to say that God is Father. The Father is God in this respect. The Father is just one part of the Theotes. So when we say that God is not the Father we refer to the Theotes.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
So God has several PARTS and one of these parts can die?

[Not3in1]

Good morning, Keith.

Quote

There is no scripture that calls Jesus Gods boy! The implication is Jesus is a child and not a full grown Son!

Oh, spare me! You know what I mean! Of course I realize that Jesus is a full-grown Son of God. But by calling him God's “boy” I'm also trying to drive home the point that Jesus is truly God's Son…truly conceived and born of a women. You do not believe in true conception, but in incarnation (also no scripture for the term, or teaching.).

Quote

BTW, If you see Jesus who is “the image of the invisible God” as a mere man, then you see the Father as a mere man!

Not true. The Father, who is God, has never been a human being according to the scriptures. Rather we are told, according to the scriptures, that the God's holy spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived….a boy….God's Son, Jesus.

God is still God. But his spirit conceived with a human, and they had a son. I don't care how many ways people manipulate the scriptures, it's there in black and white. Basic truth.

I've been interupted sooooo many times while trying to write this post, I'm going to sign off and come back later tonight.

Love,
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Do you have any scriptures that speak of a multipartite God?
Of course that would mean none alone is God.

God is one.

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,16:17)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,11:18) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,10:50) Quote Hi TC: He was “fully God, and fully man”.  Where is that scripture? He is God in that he is the express image of God's person.  God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the “last Adam”. And so, Jesus said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”.  How so?  By the works that he did in obedience to God. No, he is not just any man.  He is the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God. Love in Christ, Marty That Scripture is all throughout the Bible. If the Bible says that Jesus is man, then he is. If the Bible says that Jesus is God (which it does in Titus 2:13 and other passages) then he is. Therefore, we can infer that if he is man, and if he is God, that he is both. TC27 Hi TC, Jesus said he is the Son of God but somehow that statement is ignored in the lofty world of inference and logic. Hi TC: There is a scripture in which God call the Son of God “God”, but there is no scripture which states that Jesus is God. God has revealed to us who Jesus is in Matthew 16. And there is a scripture which states that there is “one God” and mediator between God and man, “the man” Christ Jesus. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,

You admit that there is a verse that calls the Son of God, God. Then you say that the Bible never says that Jesus is God. What a contradiction if I ever saw one. Tell me how this is suppose to make sense. If the Son of God is called God, then the Bible is saying that Jesus is God.

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 07 2009,22:36)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,17:10) BTW where is Mohamad at in all of this? WJ The Quran is clear that Jesus worshipped God alone and did not associate partners with Him. The Quran also is clear that Jesus is of those nearest to God. The Quran also is clear that Jesus will be cleared of all those falsehoods attributed to Him and his purity will be preserved and Jesus himself will testify against those the people of those falsehoods. The bible already tells you that Jesus will declare to the ones that say 'Lord, lord” but do not do the Will of his Father, he will say “I do not know you” I have no doubt you want to do the right thing but the question is, do you love your doctrine more than you love Jesus?

Bod,

The Bible is the only book of truth. To use the Quran for your own arguments sake is low. If you ask me, I at least use the Bible and believe in it above all else, and to be the one who is called an apostate is beyond me. Bod uses the Quran and I am the one who is called indoctrinated. WOW, this is very interesting.

TC27

[NickHassan]

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,08:29)

Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,16:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,11:18) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,10:50) Quote Hi TC: He was “fully God, and fully man”.  Where is that scripture? He is God in that he is the express image of God's person.  God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the “last Adam”. And so, Jesus said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”.  How so?  By the works that he did in obedience to God. No, he is not just any man.  He is the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God. Love in Christ, Marty That Scripture is all throughout the Bible. If the Bible says that Jesus is man, then he is. If the Bible says that Jesus is God (which it does in Titus 2:13 and other passages) then he is. Therefore, we can infer that if he is man, and if he is God, that he is both. TC27 Hi TC, Jesus said he is the Son of God but somehow that statement is ignored in the lofty world of inference and logic. Hi TC: There is a scripture in which God call the Son of God “God”, but there is no scripture which states that Jesus is God. God has revealed to us who Jesus is in Matthew 16. And there is a scripture which states that there is “one God” and mediator between God and man, “the man” Christ Jesus. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, You admit that there is a verse that calls the Son of God, God. Then you say that the Bible never says that Jesus is God. What a contradiction if I ever saw one. Tell me how this is suppose to make sense. If the Son of God is called God, then the Bible is saying that Jesus is God. TC27

Hi TC,
Do you not know Who God is?
Tradition does this to folks.

He is the God of Jesus.
Jn20

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Nick,

How does your response in any way answer what I said to Marty?

TC27

[NickHassan]

Hi TC,.
You should not use the bible but let it use and teach you.
There is no God of three parts or three persons taught in it.

But then you may prefer to follow men and their traditions but why?

[Author]

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