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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2009,10:24) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 06 2009,17:23) Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,08:52) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2009,05:21) Hi BD Quote (bodhitharta @ July 06 2009,12:49) He says only his Father can do that. He says no such thing, in fact he doesnt even mention the Father in the verse.
but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared.” MK 10:40
Jesus statement is simply an acknowledment of not being able to act on his own accord, and that his right hand and left hand is already prepared for those chosen.
For Jesus would be lying when he says…
To him that overcometh “will I grant to sit with me in my throne“, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21
Is Jesus contradicting himself when he says he has “All Power” in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:19
He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords!
Of course all of the proof text used against the Trinitarian view only addresses part truth and not the whole found in the scriptures. Holding on to some verses and leaving others out, is the popular method of the gainsayers.
WJ
WJ,
You are correct. That which Jesus could not give before He was exalted He has the authority to give now. Bodhitharta and others here keep referring to statements Jesus made BEFORE He was exalted as if they are still true. He has ALL authority now.Where is that concession Bod?
thinker
Matthew 613 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Jesus says here that THE FATHER has The KINGDOM, The Power and the Glory FOREVER.
John 17:1-3 (King James Version)
John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
BTW, my use of capitalization in this case is not me raising my voice it is just for visual emphasis.
You can see in John 17:2 Jesus already has the power given to him. Once again it is best to concede or if you prefer (God willing) I can make it clearer.
Hi BD
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. “Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end“. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. Isa 9:6,7
Is this talking about the Father or Jesus?
Now what did Paul say…
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 15:24, 25
Who has the Kingdom BD?
Now here is the kicker…
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. “When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all“. 1 Cor 15:27, 28
Here Paul is saying that when all things are subjected under Jesus “THEN” he will subject himself to the Father that God may be all in all.
So when the scriptures says that Jesus has all authority and Power and that the increase of “HIS” Kingdom will never end, then that tells us that Jesus will keep all authority and power even when he subjects himself to the Father. According to Paul’s own words here Jesus is not subject to the Father at this time but is in fact he is at the Fathers right hand of the Father with all authority and power subject to him.
Jesus is the “KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS” and always will be.
But again as usual nontrinitarians cannot see the big picture in scriptures but have tunnel vision with their proof text.
WJ
WJ,God bless you always, but please pay attention:
You admit that Jesus will reign on the throne of David which is not the throne of God.
Also you showed the scripture that contains these words:
when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. “
This is proof that ALL things do not include God who gave him the authority and power.
I hope this has given you some clarity. Anyway, Let us continue to reason together.
Quote (Paladin @ July 07 2009,21:29) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 07 2009,16:41) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2009,16:29) Hi BD,
God greatly used Paul even in ways you might not approve of.
But you would not judge God would you?
I don't recall judging Paul what I said was what I actually showed you in the scriptures. It shows two things it shows that Paul was responsible for really spreading Christianity but it also shows that Christianity at this point is at enmity within itself because of the ambiguous nature of the writings of Paul.Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom of God
Paul preached the Gospel of Jesus
Careful my friend, lest you slander one of God's selected ministers –Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
It is never slander to tell the truth. Paul did not preach what Jesus taught.Jesus was more strict in the law not less and as I have stated before the fulfillment of the law did not mean its abolishment but its correct execution of it.
Paul however said that nothing is unclean or impure in itself but thinking makes it so. So if Adultery is okay in your mind there is no sin in it.
Jesus would not agree saying that not only adultery is outright wrong but even looking at a woman with lust is wrong and already adulterous.
I will debate anyone anytime and anywhere on the complete differences of the teachings of Jesus and Paul. They preached two different gospels.
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 08 2009,04:53) there is one God but many gods
There is no god but GOD.Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,05:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2009,18:06) Hi TC,
So Jesus is not your God?God is in him.
Who assigns these tasks or do they have regular meetings?
Who is the Son of this trinity god?
Nick,The Son is part of the trinity God.
TC27
If Jesus is part of God
Who is the SON of GodQuote (Not3in1 @ July 08 2009,05:27) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,05:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2009,18:06) Hi TC,
So Jesus is not your God?God is in him.
Who assigns these tasks or do they have regular meetings?
Who is the Son of this trinity god?
Nick,The Son is part of the trinity God.
TC27
TC,The Son didn't know that he was a part of a “Trinity God”. We can see this by following his words:
John 17:3 (New International Version)
3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.The “you” in the above scripture is the Father. The “Jesus Christ” in the above scripture is someone other than the true God.
If Jesus knew he was part of the Trinity, where did he say so? He said to see him was to see the Father, but he never made any mention of the Holy Ghost? Hmmm. It's quite a curious dogma.
Love,
Mandy
Simply Brilliant!Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,05:45) Everyone, Why would Jesus say this to the devil if he was not God?
Matthew 4:7
Quote Jesus said to him, “It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'” We all know that JESUS was the one being tempted here. So why would he pull out a phrase saying you shall not tempt the Lord you God, if he was not God? The Father was not the one being tempted, but Jesus. So if Jesus is not God, then his statement to the devil is invalid.
TC27
Jesus was saying that he would not tempt the lord by jumping.Even the devil said “If you are the son of God…”
Do you really think that God was tempted by the devil the scripture says:
James 1:12-14 (King James Version)
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jesus received the crown of life therefor he say that he “overcame” the world. God did not overcome the world He created it.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 08 2009,06:00) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,05:54) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 07 2009,09:47) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,05:34) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 07 2009,09:29) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,05:23) If Jesus is not God, then why do you worship him? TC27
Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”The boys worshipped him because he was the Son of God. Not because he was God.
Not3,The why does the Bible say to worship the Lord your God only? If Jesus is not God, then he should not be worshiped. That would be idolatry.
TC27
This question is too easy, my friend.The word “worship” has been translated so many times. There are some pretty fabulous discussions on this board about this very question. It has been determined that “worship” can also mean “homage”. Two different situations.
The ONE true God is to be worshipped over all. Even Jesus will bow down to him and give it all back to him, on that Day. It is clear…..there is ONE to be worshipped, and that ONE is the Father (who is God). This excludes Jesus as being that ONE.
1 Corinthians 15:28
When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.Love,
Mandy
Not3,Show me from the greek that the word worship in the case of Jesus is different than actual worship. Show me how it means only mere homage. Jesus bled and died, and you do not want to actually worship him?
Philippians 2 states that Jesus was exalted to the highest place so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow. How do you answer Philippians 2:9-11?
Quote 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
TC27
TC,With all due respect, I don't have time to look it up. It's all here if you want to dig for it yourself.
I totally understand that there are those Christians who believe that because of Jesus' ultimate sacrifice, that we are to worship his as God. But the bible simply does not support that view. We are told to worship God, the Father, only. No where are we told to give such glory to the Son.
Isaiah 42:8
“I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.The Father did not give his glory to the Son. The Son has his own glory – that of the One and Only Son. It was as the One and Only Son that his followers gave him homage/worship. Not as the One True God. Scriptures supports this theory quite well.
Love,
Mandy
AWESOME and brilliant! I give your post five stars *****Quote (942767 @ July 08 2009,10:05) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 07 2009,13:47) Quote (942767 @ July 06 2009,15:51) Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,10:37) Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,10:13) Hi WJ and thethinker: Are you saying that in his position as head of the church, Jesus is not subjected to the Father?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
Christ is at the Father's right hand which is neither above or below the Father. And Isaiah 9:6 says that the government shall be on Christ's shoulders,Quote For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wondefful Counselor, the Mighty God, everlasting Father, prince of peace thinker
Hi thinker:He is God's Christ, and as you already stated he is God's representative.
In his earthly ministry, he stated that he did nothing on his own but did what his Father was showing him. Through obedience to God, he overcame sin, and now, he has been exalted to the right hand of God, and he watches over his Word, the commandments that have come from God through him to us, and the Word that he also obeyed to perform it.
The scripture states:
Quote Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;We, as born again Christians, are subjected to God through him, that is the written Word that came to us during his ministry, and it is as we learn to apply this Word in our daily lives and by his blood that he shed for our sins that we learn to overcome sin as well.
We have access to the Father as we are in the body of Christ.
Quote Jhn 15:1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.It is God's Word that we are obeying. Jesus did not teach his own throughts, and so, although he has been given all power over heaven and earth, he is subjected to God through His Word. The head of Christ is God, and head of man is Christ, and the head of woman is man. The Word of God is what we are striving to obey in the body of Christ.
There is only “one God” and one mediator between God and man the “man” Christ Jesus.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,Jesus was fully God and fully man. So yes, trinitarians do not deny that Jesus was a man. However, to be just a man is cutting it short. Jesus was both man and God.
TC27
Hi TC:He was “fully God, and fully man”. Where is that scripture?
He is God in that he is the express image of God's person. God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the “last Adam”.
And so, Jesus said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”. How so? By the works that he did in obedience to God.
No, he is not just any man. He is the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Excellent post Marty!Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,22:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,12:30) Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,20:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,11:18) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,10:50) Quote Hi TC: He was “fully God, and fully man”. Where is that scripture?
He is God in that he is the express image of God's person. God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the “last Adam”.
And so, Jesus said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”. How so? By the works that he did in obedience to God.
No, he is not just any man. He is the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God.
Love in Christ,
MartyThat Scripture is all throughout the Bible. If the Bible says that Jesus is man, then he is. If the Bible says that Jesus is God (which it does in Titus 2:13 and other passages) then he is. Therefore, we can infer that if he is man, and if he is God, that he is both.
TC27
Hi TC,
Jesus said he is the Son of God but somehow that statement is ignored in the lofty world of inference and logic.
Hi TC:There is a scripture in which God call the Son of God “God”, but there is no scripture which states that Jesus is God.
God has revealed to us who Jesus is in Matthew 16.
And there is a scripture which states that there is “one God” and mediator between God and man, “the man” Christ Jesus.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi 94Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,20:17)
There is a scripture in which God call the Son of God “God”, but there is no scripture which states that Jesus is God.Isa 9:6 —–> “called the mighty God”
Matt 1:23 —–> “they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
John 1:1—–> “the Word was God”
John 1:18—–> “but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side”
John 20:28—–> “My Lord and My God”
Acts 20:28—–> “Be shepherds of the church of God,* which he bought with his own blood”.
Rom 9:5—–> “who is God over all, forever praised!* Amen.”
Phil 2:6—-> “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:”
Heb 1:8—–> “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom”.
2 Peter 1:1—–> “our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
Titus 2:13—–> “the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,”
1 John 5:20—–> “and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life'.
Jude 1:4—–> “and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”
Rev 1:8—–> ““I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Rev 22:12, 13—–> ““Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
Just a few.
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ:He is not God in the sense that those that adhere to the “trinity doctrine” indicate, and none of the scriptures that you quoted state that otherwise there would be many contradications of scripture. He is God in that he is the express image of God's person.
There is “Only One God”, and He made man in “His Own Image”.
It really isn't that complicated.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi 94The Apostles that called Jesus God never said “in a sense you are God”!
That is your own inference! Furthermore the contradictions lies with you for Paul said there is “No God but One” and yet calls Jesus his Great God and Saviour!
They made no distinction in their honour and worship to him.
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,16:32) Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,22:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,12:30) Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,20:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,11:18) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,10:50) Quote Hi TC: He was “fully God, and fully man”. Where is that scripture?
He is God in that he is the express image of God's person. God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the “last Adam”.
And so, Jesus said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”. How so? By the works that he did in obedience to God.
No, he is not just any man. He is the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God.
Love in Christ,
MartyThat Scripture is all throughout the Bible. If the Bible says that Jesus is man, then he is. If the Bible says that Jesus is God (which it does in Titus 2:13 and other passages) then he is. Therefore, we can infer that if he is man, and if he is God, that he is both.
TC27
Hi TC,
Jesus said he is the Son of God but somehow that statement is ignored in the lofty world of inference and logic.
Hi TC:There is a scripture in which God call the Son of God “God”, but there is no scripture which states that Jesus is God.
God has revealed to us who Jesus is in Matthew 16.
And there is a scripture which states that there is “one God” and mediator between God and man, “the man” Christ Jesus.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi 94Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,20:17)
There is a scripture in which God call the Son of God “God”, but there is no scripture which states that Jesus is God.Isa 9:6 —–> “called the mighty God”
Matt 1:23 —–> “they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
John 1:1—–> “the Word was God”
John 1:18—–> “but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side”
John 20:28—–> “My Lord and My God”
Acts 20:28—–> “Be shepherds of the church of God,* which he bought with his own blood”.
Rom 9:5—–> “who is God over all, forever praised!* Amen.”
Phil 2:6—-> “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:”
Heb 1:8—–> “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom”.
2 Peter 1:1—–> “our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
Titus 2:13—–> “the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,”
1 John 5:20—–> “and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life'.
Jude 1:4—–> “and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”
Rev 1:8—–> ““I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Rev 22:12, 13—–> ““Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
Just a few.
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ:He is not God in the sense that those that adhere to the “trinity doctrine” indicate, and none of the scriptures that you quoted state that otherwise there would be many contradications of scripture. He is God in that he is the express image of God's person.
There is “Only One God”, and He made man in “His Own Image”.
It really isn't that complicated.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi 94The Apostles that called Jesus God never said “in a sense you are God”!
That is your own inference! Furthermore the contradictions lies with you for Paul said there is “No God but One” and yet calls Jesus his Great God and Saviour!
They made no distinction in their honour and worship to him.
Blessings WJ
Instead of focusing on being slippery focus on the wor of God, you know for a fact that Paul said that we have One God even the Father:Romans 15
6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Now free yourself WJ God wants people like you of strong conviction to preach the truth:
John 8:40-42 (King James Version)
40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Now let us examine this: Verse 40 Jesus says that he has told the truth which he has “heard of God” in verse 42 Jesus declares that God is The Father and he was sent by God. Jesus said he came from God and then says “He” sent him. Now God could not be a collective or composite because he says” neither I of myself” but “He” therefore Jesus is saying that God is the “He” and Jesus is not.
Do you agree that in verse 42 I is not “He”?
Do you agree that in verse 42 that “HE” is God?If you agree to those statement(and you must because they are true) That would conclude that Jesus is saying that Jesus is not God because he said “neither I of myself” but “He” God sent him.
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 07 2009,23:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2009,10:24) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 06 2009,17:23) Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,08:52) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2009,05:21) Hi BD Quote (bodhitharta @ July 06 2009,12:49) He says only his Father can do that. He says no such thing, in fact he doesn’t even mention the Father in the verse.
but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared.” MK 10:40
Jesus statement is simply an acknowledgment of not being able to act on his own accord, and that his right hand and left hand is already prepared for those chosen.
For Jesus would be lying when he says…
To him that overcometh “will I grant to sit with me in my throne“, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21
Is Jesus contradicting himself when he says he has “All Power” in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:19
He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords!
Of course all of the proof text used against the Trinitarian view only addresses part truth and not the whole found in the scriptures. Holding on to some verses and leaving others out, is the popular method of the gainsayers.
WJ
WJ,
You are correct. That which Jesus could not give before He was exalted He has the authority to give now. Bodhitharta and others here keep referring to statements Jesus made BEFORE He was exalted as if they are still true. He has ALL authority now.Where is that concession Bod?
thinker
Matthew 613 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Jesus says here that THE FATHER has The KINGDOM, The Power and the Glory FOREVER.
John 17:1-3 (King James Version)
John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
BTW, my use of capitalization in this case is not me raising my voice it is just for visual emphasis.
You can see in John 17:2 Jesus already has the power given to him. Once again it is best to concede or if you prefer (God willing) I can make it clearer.
Hi BD
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. “Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end“. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. Isa 9:6,7
Is this talking about the Father or Jesus?
Now what did Paul say…
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 15:24, 25
Who has the Kingdom BD?
Now here is the kicker…
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. “When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all“. 1 Cor 15:27, 28
Here Paul is saying that when all things are subjected under Jesus “THEN” he will subject himself to the Father that God may be all in all.
So when the scriptures says that Jesus has all authority and Power and that the increase of “HIS” Kingdom will never end, then that tells us that Jesus will keep all authority and power even when he subjects himself to the Father. According to Paul’s own words here Jesus is not subject to the Father at this time but is in fact he is at the Fathers right hand of the Father with all authority and power subject to him.
Jesus is the “KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS” and always will be.
But again as usual nontrinitarians cannot see the big picture in scriptures but have tunnel vision with their proof text.
WJ
WJ,God bless you always, but please pay attention:
You admit that Jesus will reign on the throne of David which is not the throne of God.
Also you showed the scripture that contains these words:
when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. “
This is proof that ALL things do not include God who gave him the authority and power.
I hope this has given you some clarity. Anyway, Let us continue to reason together.
Hi BDNow you pay attention, please!
Of course all things do not include the Father, for he is sitting at the right hand of power, the highest possible place in the entire creation, not beneath the Father nor above him but at his right hand, and notice it is not “In his hand” either.
So let me understand!
You think that the throne of David is not the throne of God?
Well then tell me what Kingdom is David’s throne in?
So then what is this throne that Jesus is sitting in?
For “the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne” shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Rev
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from ? “the throne of God and of the Lamb“ Rev 22:1
And there shall be no more curse: “but the throne of God and of the Lamb” shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: Rev 22:3
The throne of David of which “the increase of his government shall have no end” is prophetic of the throne of God and the Lamb (Jesus).
Have you forgotten BD that Jesus is seated in the highest plac
e far above all principalities and power. So if Davids Kingdom is not that high then Jesus doesn’t need it does he?Remember the prophesy…
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, “MIGHTY GOD, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. “OF THE INCREASE OF HIS GOVERNMENT AND PEACE THERE WILL BE NO END“. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. Isa 9:6,7
Why do you guys always seek to reduce Jesus from his place of Honour and Power?
Why do the anti-trinitarians create in their minds a Jesus that is less than the “image of the invisible God? Jesus is no longer walking in the flesh!
This is not a natural Kingdom, but a spiritual kingdom where The Father and Jesus rules and the Holy Spirit proceeds from them!
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, “flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb“ Rev 22:1
BTW where is Mohamad at in all of this?
WJ
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,00:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,16:32) Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,22:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,12:30) Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,20:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,11:18) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,10:50) Quote Hi TC: He was “fully God, and fully man”. Where is that scripture?
He is God in that he is the express image of God's person. God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the “last Adam”.
And so, Jesus said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”. How so? By the works that he did in obedience to God.
No, he is not just any man. He is the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God.
Love in Christ,
MartyThat Scripture is all throughout the Bible. If the Bible says that Jesus is man, then he is. If the Bible says that Jesus is God (which it does in Titus 2:13 and other passages) then he is. Therefore, we can infer that if he is man, and if he is God, that he is both.
TC27
Hi TC,
Jesus said he is the Son of God but somehow that statement is ignored in the lofty world of inference and logic.
Hi TC:There is a scripture in which God call the Son of God “God”, but there is no scripture which states that Jesus is God.
God has revealed to us who Jesus is in Matthew 16.
And there is a scripture which states that there is “one God” and mediator between God and man, “the man” Christ Jesus.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi 94Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,20:17)
There is a scripture in which God call the Son of God “God”, but there is no scripture which states that Jesus is God.Isa 9:6 —–> “called the mighty God”
Matt 1:23 —–> “they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
John 1:1—–> “the Word was God”
John 1:18—–> “but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side”
John 20:28—–> “My Lord and My God”
Acts 20:28—–> “Be shepherds of the church of God,* which he bought with his own blood”.
Rom 9:5—–> “who is God over all, forever praised!* Amen.”
Phil 2:6—-> “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:”
Heb 1:8—–> “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom”.
2 Peter 1:1—–> “our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
Titus 2:13—–> “the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,”
1 John 5:20—–> “and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life'.
Jude 1:4—–> “and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”
Rev 1:8—–> ““I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Rev 22:12, 13—–> ““Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
Just a few.
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ:He is not God in the sense that those that adhere to the “trinity doctrine” indicate, and none of the scriptures that you quoted state that otherwise there would be many contradications of scripture. He is God in that he is the express image of God's person.
There is “Only One God”, and He made man in “His Own Image”.
It really isn't that complicated.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi 94The Apostles that called Jesus God never said “in a sense you are God”!
That is your own inference! Furthermore the contradictions lies with you for Paul said there is “No God but One” and yet calls Jesus his Great God and Saviour!
They made no distinction in their honour and worship to him.
Blessings WJ
Instead of focusing on being slippery focus on the wor of God, you know for a fact that Paul said that we have One God even the Father:Romans 15
6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Now free yourself WJ God wants people like you of strong conviction to preach the truth:
John 8:40-42 (King James Version)
40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Now let us examine this: Verse 40 Jesus says that he has told the truth which he has “heard of God” in verse 42 Jesus declares that God is The Father and he was sent by God. Jesus said he came from God and then says “He” sent him. Now God could not be a collective or composite because he says” neither I of myself” but “He” therefore Jesus is saying that God is the “He” and Jesus is not.
Do you agree that in verse 42 I is not “He”?
Do you agree that in verse 42 that “HE” is God?If you agree to those statement(and you must because they are true) That would conclude that Jesus is saying that Jesus is not God because he said “neither I of myself” but “He” God sent him.
Hi BDQuote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,00:55) Instead of focusing on being slippery focus on the wor of God, you know for a fact that Paul said that we have One God even the Father:
Being slippery? How about you guys
being honest?The same Paul that you are speaking of said…
while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our “GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST“, Titus 2:13
And also…
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and “DENY JESUS CHRIST OUR ONLY SOVEREIGN AND LORD“. Jude 1:4
So is Jesus your ONLY SOVEREIGN AND LORD, BD?
Jesus said you can't serve 2 masters?
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ July 08 2009,08:01) Mandy said: Quote With all due respect, I don't have time to look it up. It's all here if you want to dig for it yourself. I totally understand that there are those Christians who believe that because of Jesus' ultimate sacrifice, that we are to worship his as God. But the bible simply does not support that view. We are told to worship God, the Father, only. No where are we told to give such glory to the Son.
The Father commanded the angels to worship Him,
Quote And let all the angels of God worship Him (Heb. 1:6) When anti-trinitarians get to heaven they will be a lonely group.
Mandy said:
Quote Isaiah 42:8
“I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.The Father did not give his glory to the Son. The Son has his own glory – that of the One and Only Son. It was as the One and Only Son that his followers gave him homage/worship. Not as the One True God. Scriptures supports this theory quite well.
Jesus said that he would return to the glory He had TOGETHER WITH the Father,
Quote Now, O Father, glorify Me with the glory I had TOGETHER WITH You before the world began (John 17;3) and,
Quote Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom, and strength and honor and glory and blessing….Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits upon the throne (the Father) and to the Lamb, forever and ever (Rev. 5:12-14) Mandy,
I know you are aware of the passages I cited here.thinker
Hi there,Question: did the Father command the angels to worship Jesus as God? Or as the Son of God?
Only the Father will be worshiped as God. The Father will not give his glory to another (he's jealous, you know), not even to his Son!!!
Thanks,
MandyQuote (thethinker @ July 08 2009,08:03) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 08 2009,05:29) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,05:23) If Jesus is not God, then why do you worship him? TC27
Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”The boys worshipped him because he was the Son of God. Not because he was God.
If there was a distinction in their minds between the Son of God and God then they would not worshiped Him at all. Therefore, your disctinction between Son of God and God is circular.thinker
Thinker,I think your over-thinking this.
How can we possibly know what the boys were thinking? Truly! But of course they wouldn't worship anyone but the Father. That is why in some translations this word for worship is translated “homage”. Check it out for yourself, I don't have the interest really in tracking it down. There really are some good discussions here on it though.
Love,
MandyQuote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,08:04) Hi TT,
So Jesus and his God were together?
That makes two but you claim there are three?
Nick,Exactly! They can usually pin two together….it's when we add the third person in there that it mixes it up a bit.
Remember that the Trinity means THREE! That dogma is hard to find.
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,10:45) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 07 2009,09:49) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,05:45) Everyone, Why would Jesus say this to the devil if he was not God?
Matthew 4:7
Quote Jesus said to him, “It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'” We all know that JESUS was the one being tempted here. So why would he pull out a phrase saying you shall not tempt the Lord you God, if he was not God? The Father was not the one being tempted, but Jesus. So if Jesus is not God, then his statement to the devil is invalid.
TC27
Read it again, please. Satan is asking Jesus – to ask God – to do things for him. Jesus tells Satan that that would be tempting God.
Mandy,I did read it again and I was mistaken. I do admit that i read it too eagerly. I am certain that you are correct in this instance and therefore take that argument back. I still do believe in the trinity and one mistake on a verse will not change my mind. I do thank you for your patience with me.
TC27
TC,First of all, thank you for your post. I was encouraged by your honesty. Listen bro, I've been where you are….searching those scriptures to cling to whatever I could that sounded like the Trinity doctrine that I had been raised on. I wanted it to be true. I needed it to be true. And then I didn't need it to be true any longer. I just wanted God, and the truth.
I've figured out that you can make the scriptures say almost anything that you want them to. Just take a look at this board! We have Keith, a Trinitarian brother, who puts for a strong argument for his case (very compelling, indeed). Then you have other's who also argue their cases against his ideas – they also seem correct. Scripture is, well, bendable, if you ask me. Just pray, and listen…..
On that Day, we all will know. Until then, love one another. That's what I try to do.
Love you,
MandyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,17:37) Being slippery? How about you guys being honest? The same Paul that you are speaking of said…
while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our “GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST“, Titus 2:13
And also…
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and “DENY JESUS CHRIST OUR ONLY SOVEREIGN AND LORD“. Jude 1:4
So is Jesus your ONLY SOVEREIGN AND LORD, BD?
Jesus said you can't serve 2 masters?
WJ
You serve 3 mastersYou admit that Jesus is not The Father
You admit that the Father is not The Holy Spirit
You admit that The Holy Spirit is not JesusYou worship The Father = 1 Master
You worship Jesus = 2nd Master
You worship The Holy Spirit = 3 MastersSo if you say that Jesus is your only Sovereign and Lord and the only One you Worship it proves what we have been saying:
You don't worship The Father who Jesus says is the Only True God and if you do worship all three then you have convicted yourself by your own words because you have 3 Masters.
God Bless you always.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,17:10) Why do the anti-trinitarians create in their minds a Jesus that is less than the “image of the invisible God? Jesus is no longer walking in the flesh!
Hey bro,I don't have an image in my mind that Jesus is less than the image of his Father!? Jesus is God's boy. And what do you mean, “Jesus is no longer walking in the flesh!”?
What are the scriptures that back that up, please? Thanks.
Love,
MandyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,17:10) BTW where is Mohamad at in all of this? WJ
The Quran is clear that Jesus worshipped God alone and did not associate partners with Him. The Quran also is clear that Jesus is of those nearest to God.The Quran also is clear that Jesus will be cleared of all those falsehoods attributed to Him and his purity will be preserved and Jesus himself will testify against those the people of those falsehoods. The bible already tells you that Jesus will declare to the ones that say 'Lord, lord” but do not do the Will of his Father, he will say “I do not know you”
I have no doubt you want to do the right thing but the question is, do you love your doctrine more than you love Jesus?
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