Attn anti-trinitarians: another us verse

[KangarooJack]

Mandy said:

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With all due respect, I don't have time to look it up.  It's all here if you want to dig for it yourself. I totally understand that there are those Christians who believe that because of Jesus' ultimate sacrifice, that we are to worship his as God.  But the bible simply does not support that view.  We are told to worship God, the Father, only.  No where are we told to give such glory to the Son.

The Father commanded the angels to worship Him,

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And let all the angels of God worship Him (Heb. 1:6)

When anti-trinitarians get to heaven they will be a lonely group.

Mandy said:

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Isaiah 42:8 “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. The Father did not give his glory to the Son.  The Son has his own glory – that of the One and Only Son.  It was as the One and Only Son that his followers gave him homage/worship.  Not as the One True God.  Scriptures supports this theory quite well.

Jesus said that he would return to the glory He had TOGETHER WITH the Father,

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Now, O Father, glorify Me with the glory I had TOGETHER WITH You before the world began (John 17;3)

and,

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Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom, and strength and honor and glory and blessing….Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits upon the throne (the Father) and to the Lamb, forever and ever (Rev. 5:12-14)

Mandy,
I know you are aware of the passages I cited here.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 08 2009,05:29)

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,05:23) If Jesus is not God, then why do you worship him? TC27 Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.” The boys worshipped him because he was the Son of God.  Not because he was God.

If there was a distinction in their minds between the Son of God and God then they would not worshiped Him at all. Therefore, your disctinction between Son of God and God is circular.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
So Jesus and his God were together?
That makes two but you claim there are three?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,16:03)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 08 2009,05:29) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,05:23) If Jesus is not God, then why do you worship him? TC27 Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.” The boys worshipped him because he was the Son of God.  Not because he was God. If there was a distinction in their minds between the Son of God and God then they would not worshiped Him at all. Therefore, your disctinction between Son of God and God is circular. thinker

Hi Jack

Not to mention that Jesus himself used the same Greek word for the true worship to the Father that was being practiced on him.

Yahshua used the same word “worship (proskuneo)” in John 4 in describing our worship of the Father that was practiced on him many times in scriptures.

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship “(proskuneo)” the Father. Ye worship “(proskuneo)” ye know not what: we know what we worship “(proskuneo)”: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers “(proskynētēs)” shall worship “(proskuneo)” the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship “(proskuneo)” him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship “(proskuneo)” him must worship “(proskuneo)” him in spirit and in truth. John 4:21-24

Now compare…

And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped (proskuneo) him. Matt 28:9

And when they saw him, they worshipped (proskuneo) him: but some doubted. Matt 28:17

And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped (proskuneo) him. Jn 9:38

Now why didn’t Jesus discourage them and tell them to worship God and not him for obviously he had used the same word for worship to the Father. In every other case in the NT you see (proskuneo) spoken of toward an Angel or a saint it was discouraged by the recipient. In fact I challenge any anti-trinitarian to find one NT instance where (proskuneo) was directed to anyone other than Jesus and the Father without being discouraged by the recipient or was simply mockery.

The Apostles could have used many words for describing honour or praise for Jesus instead of (proskuneo) the word that was used by Jesus himself for worship to the Father.

For honour, or praise or glory Jesus could have used

Worship (doxa) which means..
a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory

But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship (doxa) in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. Luke 14:10

Or he could have used

Praise (exousia) which means…
1) approbation, commendation, praise

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise (exousia) of the same: Romans 13:3

Or he could have used

Honour (timē) which means…
1) a valuing by which the price is fixed
a) of the price itself
b) of the price paid or received for a person or thing bought or sold
2) honour which belongs or is shown to one
a) of the honour which one has by reason of rank and state of office which he holds
b) deference, reverence

But glory, honour (timē) and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Rom 2:10

None of these examples uses the word “(proskuneo)” to describe honour, praise, and glory to men.

John and the Apostles were not at all confused about the word “(proskuneo)” and Jesus use of the word in describing the “True Worship” of the Father.

Not to mention there is not one NT example where the word “(proskuneo)” was used toward any being other than the Father and Jesus where it was not discouraged by the recipient or was in mockery.

And the one place where we know it was not discouraged by the recipient but the worship was recieved is…

And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.  Acts12:23

Not once in all the times men worshipped Jesus “(proskuneo)” did Jesus say “give the glory to God”.

In a court of law these facts would be indesputable!

Jesus is to be honoured and worshipped jsut as the Father, and unfortunately for the anti-trinitarians they can not show any distintion between the worship of the Father and Jesus.

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; “Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever“. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four [and] twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Rev 5:11-14

There is no scripture that says worship Jesus and worship the Father as God.

There is only scripture that says worship God only!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Then why do you teach that we should worship the Son of God?

[942767]

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 07 2009,13:47)

Quote (942767 @ July 06 2009,15:51) Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,10:37) Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,10:13) Hi WJ and thethinker: Are you saying that in his position as head of the church, Jesus is not subjected to the Father? Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Christ is at the Father's right hand which is neither above or below the Father. And Isaiah 9:6 says that the government shall be on Christ's shoulders, Quote For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wondefful Counselor, the Mighty God, everlasting Father, prince of peace thinker Hi thinker: He is God's Christ, and as you already stated he is God's representative. In his earthly ministry, he stated that he did nothing on his own but did what his Father was showing him.  Through obedience to God, he overcame sin, and now, he has been exalted to the right hand of God, and he watches over his Word, the commandments that have come from God through him to us, and the Word that he also obeyed to perform it. The scripture states: Quote Hbr 5:8   Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;   Hbr 5:9   And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;   We, as born again Christians, are subjected to God through him, that is the written Word that came to us during his ministry, and it is as we learn to apply this Word in our daily lives and by his blood that he shed for our sins that we learn to overcome sin as well. We have access to the Father as we are in the body of Christ. Quote Jhn 15:1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.   Jhn 15:2   Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.   Jhn 15:3   Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.   Jhn 15:4   Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.   Jhn 15:5   I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.   Jhn 15:6   If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.   Jhn 15:7   If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. It is God's Word that we are obeying.  Jesus did not teach his own throughts, and so, although he has been given all power over heaven and earth, he is subjected to God through His Word.  The head of Christ is God, and head of man is Christ, and the head of woman is man.  The Word of God is what we are striving to obey in the body of Christ. There is only “one God” and one mediator between God and man the “man” Christ Jesus. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Jesus was fully God and fully man. So yes, trinitarians do not deny that Jesus was a man. However, to be just a man is cutting it short. Jesus was both man and God. TC27

Hi TC:

He was “fully God, and fully man”. Where is that scripture?

He is God in that he is the express image of God's person. God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the “last Adam”.

And so, Jesus said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”. How so? By the works that he did in obedience to God.

No, he is not just any man. He is the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 07 2009,09:49)

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,05:45) Everyone, Why would Jesus say this to the devil if he was not God? Matthew 4:7 Quote Jesus said to him, “It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'” We all know that JESUS was the one being tempted here. So why would he pull out a phrase saying you shall not tempt the Lord you God, if he was not God? The Father was not the one being tempted, but Jesus. So if Jesus is not God, then his statement to the devil is invalid. TC27 Read it again, please.  Satan is asking Jesus – to ask God – to do things for him.  Jesus tells Satan that that would be tempting God.

Mandy,

I did read it again and I was mistaken. I do admit that i read it too eagerly. I am certain that you are correct in this instance and therefore take that argument back. I still do believe in the trinity and one mistake on a verse will not change my mind. I do thank you for your patience with me.

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote

Hi TC: He was “fully God, and fully man”. Where is that scripture? He is God in that he is the express image of God's person. God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the “last Adam”. And so, Jesus said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”. How so? By the works that he did in obedience to God. No, he is not just any man. He is the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God. Love in Christ, Marty

That Scripture is all throughout the Bible. If the Bible says that Jesus is man, then he is. If the Bible says that Jesus is God (which it does in Titus 2:13 and other passages) then he is. Therefore, we can infer that if he is man, and if he is God, that he is both.

TC27

[NickHassan]

Hi TC,
But he is not his own God our our God.[jn20]

[NickHassan]

Hi TC,
Eventually you will discover, if you are faithful to scripture as God requires that we be, then the imaginations of men that developed the trinity doctrine are not aligned with the written Word of God.

[KangarooJack]

WorshippingJesus said:

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In fact I challenge you to find one NT instance where (proskuneo) was directed to anyone other than Jesus and the Father without being discouraged by the recipient or was simply mockery.

WJ,
Your post was addressed to me. Do I assume correctly that the “I challenge YOU” part of your post was not addressed to me?

thinker

[NickHassan]

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,10:50)

Quote Hi TC: He was “fully God, and fully man”.  Where is that scripture? He is God in that he is the express image of God's person.  God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the “last Adam”. And so, Jesus said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”.  How so?  By the works that he did in obedience to God. No, he is not just any man.  He is the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God. Love in Christ, Marty That Scripture is all throughout the Bible. If the Bible says that Jesus is man, then he is. If the Bible says that Jesus is God (which it does in Titus 2:13 and other passages) then he is. Therefore, we can infer that if he is man, and if he is God, that he is both. TC27

Hi TC,
Jesus said he is the Son of God but somehow that statement is ignored in the lofty world of inference and logic.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,19:00)

WorshippingJesus said: Quote In fact I challenge you to find one NT instance where (proskuneo) was directed to anyone other than Jesus and the Father without being discouraged by the recipient or was simply mockery. WJ, Your post was addressed to me. Do I assume correctly that the “I challenge YOU” part of your post was not addressed to me? thinker

Hi Jack

You are correct!

I will edit it for the statement is addressed to the non worshippers!

Blessings WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2009,19:18)

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,10:50) Quote Hi TC: He was “fully God, and fully man”.  Where is that scripture? He is God in that he is the express image of God's person.  God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the “last Adam”. And so, Jesus said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”.  How so?  By the works that he did in obedience to God. No, he is not just any man.  He is the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God. Love in Christ, Marty That Scripture is all throughout the Bible. If the Bible says that Jesus is man, then he is. If the Bible says that Jesus is God (which it does in Titus 2:13 and other passages) then he is. Therefore, we can infer that if he is man, and if he is God, that he is both. TC27 Hi TC, Jesus said he is the Son of God but somehow that statement is ignored in the lofty world of inference and logic.

NH

Do you follow scriptures?

If you do then why do you condemn those who worship Jesus when scriptures clearly teach that he is worshipped even by the angels?

Where is an example of an Angel of God bowing down to a man?

There is no scripture that says he was worshipped by the angels as the Son of God!

For if merely being a son of God is a prerequisite to worship then there should be plenty of examples where this took place in scriptures towards the saints.

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
He said true worshipers worship the Father but you disagree?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2009,19:40)

Hi WJ, He said true worshipers worship the Father but you disagree?

NH

True, we are to worship the Father, but what Jesus didnt say is “do not worship me”, did he?

Read my post again! The same word Jesus used for worship to the Father is the same word men practiced on him and he did not stop them.

So do you follow the scriptures or not?

WJ

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,11:18)

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,10:50) Quote Hi TC: He was “fully God, and fully man”.  Where is that scripture? He is God in that he is the express image of God's person.  God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the “last Adam”. And so, Jesus said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”.  How so?  By the works that he did in obedience to God. No, he is not just any man.  He is the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God. Love in Christ, Marty That Scripture is all throughout the Bible. If the Bible says that Jesus is man, then he is. If the Bible says that Jesus is God (which it does in Titus 2:13 and other passages) then he is. Therefore, we can infer that if he is man, and if he is God, that he is both. TC27 Hi TC, Jesus said he is the Son of God but somehow that statement is ignored in the lofty world of inference and logic.

Hi TC:

There is a scripture in which God call the Son of God “God”, but there is no scripture which states that Jesus is God.

God has revealed to us who Jesus is in Matthew 16.

And there is a scripture which states that there is “one God” and mediator between God and man, “the man” Christ Jesus.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,20:17)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,11:18) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,10:50) Quote Hi TC: He was “fully God, and fully man”.  Where is that scripture? He is God in that he is the express image of God's person.  God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the “last Adam”. And so, Jesus said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”.  How so?  By the works that he did in obedience to God. No, he is not just any man.  He is the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God. Love in Christ, Marty That Scripture is all throughout the Bible. If the Bible says that Jesus is man, then he is. If the Bible says that Jesus is God (which it does in Titus 2:13 and other passages) then he is. Therefore, we can infer that if he is man, and if he is God, that he is both. TC27 Hi TC, Jesus said he is the Son of God but somehow that statement is ignored in the lofty world of inference and logic. Hi TC: There is a scripture in which God call the Son of God “God”, but there is no scripture which states that Jesus is God. God has revealed to us who Jesus is in Matthew 16. And there is a scripture which states that there is “one God” and mediator between God and man, “the man” Christ Jesus. Love in Christ, Marty

Hi 94

Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,20:17)

There is a scripture in which God call the Son of God “God”, but there is no scripture which states that Jesus is God.

Isa 9:6 —–> “called the mighty God”

Matt 1:23 —–> “they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”

John 1:1—–> “the Word was God”

John 1:18—–> “but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side”

John 20:28—–> “My Lord and My God”

Acts 20:28—–> “Be shepherds of the church of God,* which he bought with his own blood”.

Rom 9:5—–> “who is God over all, forever praised!* Amen.”

Phil 2:6—-> “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:”

Heb 1:8—–> “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom”.

2 Peter 1:1—–> “our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

Titus 2:13—–> “the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,”

1 John 5:20—–> “and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life'.

Jude 1:4—–> “and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”

Rev 1:8—–> ““I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Rev 22:12, 13—–> ““Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

Just a few.

Blessings WJ

[Cindy]

Nick and Marty!  So when in Hebrew it says
Hebrew 1:8  “And to the Son He says:”  Your Throne O God, is forever and ever;  A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.

verse 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness,  Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more then Your companions.”

So according to you then these Scriptures are wrong.  Also John 1:1 says that the Word is God and Is with God.
The way I always have seen it, that these Scriptures mean that God is a tittle.  There were many God's, even Satan is called God of this world.
Are we not called God's Children and if Children are we not a wonderful Family of God?   That is another way to look at it.  That however has nothing to do with being a trinity, there is no trinity doctrine that God gave us.  It is a man-made doctrine, by Quintus Septimius Florence Tortellini, who instituted that doctrine.

Peace and Love Irene

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,12:30)

Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,20:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,11:18) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 08 2009,10:50) Quote Hi TC: He was “fully God, and fully man”.  Where is that scripture? He is God in that he is the express image of God's person.  God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the “last Adam”. And so, Jesus said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”.  How so?  By the works that he did in obedience to God. No, he is not just any man.  He is the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God. Love in Christ, Marty That Scripture is all throughout the Bible. If the Bible says that Jesus is man, then he is. If the Bible says that Jesus is God (which it does in Titus 2:13 and other passages) then he is. Therefore, we can infer that if he is man, and if he is God, that he is both. TC27 Hi TC, Jesus said he is the Son of God but somehow that statement is ignored in the lofty world of inference and logic. Hi TC: There is a scripture in which God call the Son of God “God”, but there is no scripture which states that Jesus is God. God has revealed to us who Jesus is in Matthew 16. And there is a scripture which states that there is “one God” and mediator between God and man, “the man” Christ Jesus. Love in Christ, Marty Hi 94 Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,20:17) There is a scripture in which God call the Son of God “God”, but there is no scripture which states that Jesus is God. Isa 9:6 —–> “called the mighty God” Matt 1:23 —–> “they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.” John 1:1—–> “the Word was God” John 1:18—–> “but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side” John 20:28—–> “My Lord and My God” Acts 20:28—–> “Be shepherds of the church of God,* which he bought with his own blood”. Rom 9:5—–> “who is God over all, forever praised!* Amen.” Phil 2:6—-> “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:” Heb 1:8—–> “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom”. 2 Peter 1:1—–> “our God and Savior Jesus Christ” Titus 2:13—–> “the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” 1 John 5:20—–> “and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life'. Jude 1:4—–> “and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.” Rev 1:8—–> ““I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev 22:12, 13—–> ““Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” Just a few. Blessings WJ

Hi WJ:

He is not God in the sense that those that adhere to the “trinity doctrine” indicate, and none of the scriptures that you quoted state that otherwise there would be many contradications of scripture. He is God in that he is the express image of God's person.

There is “Only One God”, and He made man in “His Own Image”.

It really isn't that complicated.

Love in Christ,
Marty

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