Attn anti-trinitarians: another us verse

Participant

Hi BD,
They must believe in a god with parts and one part is mortal.
Of course our God is one and immortal.

Their god is a strange god.

July 4, 2009 at 1:20 am#135987

Cindy

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,09:32)

Lightenup said:

Quote

The disciples were sent in the same way…the greater sends the lesser, the master sends the slave. That is how the Son was sent…by His superior-the Father and likewise that is how the disciples are sent, by their superior-Jesus. The one sent follows the example of the one who has sent him.

Kathi,
We agree that the Word became a servant and as Son He was under His Father's authority. What we disagree on is that He was “Son” before His incarnation and that after He was exalted He remained under the Father's authority. He has ALL authority now. On the “Proverbs 16:4 with Colossians 1:17” thread you said this,

Quote

Thinker,
He definitly had less authority before the resurrection.K (p. 69 last post)

Lightenup said:

Quote

The question is when was He sent into the world. I believe that it was the day Mary gave birth to her firstborn son.

How do you infer from this that the Word was “Son” in the beginning? The old testament says nothing of a “Son” until Psalm 2:7.

thinker

Scriptures tell us that Jesus did preexist before His birth as a man.
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven amd that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn of the dead, that in all things He may have preeminence.

If you don't know what preeminence means, it is that He was first in all.

Peace and Love Irene

July 4, 2009 at 1:33 am#135988

Paladin

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ July 04 2009,05:40)

Paladin said:

Quote

Tell me somethng thinker;

In the following verses, which is the past tense?

John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

In the phrase “that ye may know,” the word “Know” is “gnwte”

gnwte is Subjunctive aorist active, but it certainly is NOT past tense.

The GREEK HAS NO PAST TENSE. It is TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH past tense, but that is not the same thing, because here is one of many exceptions, where it is NOT translated into English past tense.

I do not say this to cause you distress, I say this to help you understand where I am coming from.

Look at it again, and consider –

“though ye believe not me, believe the works: THAT YE MAY KNOW, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

“That ye may know” is in no way considered “past tense” but it is Greek Subjunctive Aorist.

A.T.Robertson has several pages on this subject. And that is just ONE of many Greek sources materials.

(thinker) Paladin,
You fail to distinguish between the subjunctive aorist and the indicative aorist. The indicative aorist is equivalent to our past tense verb. For example,

Κατὰ πίστιν ἀπέθανον οὗτοι πάντες
All these died in faith

The verb is 2 aorist indicative.

Philippians 2 says that Jesus emptied Himself. The verb is 1 aorist indicative.

ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος: καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος

The verb “emptied” is ndicative and is therefore equivalent to the English past tense verb. That you refer to many sources does not qualify you to exegete the Greek. So be weary with me all you want. I will continue to expose your smokescreens directed toward the unlearned. Your commentary of Philippians 2 is blatantly false. You need to remember that I took two years of Greek in College. So you can't pull one over me. thinker [/quote]

IMPRESSED!!!

WoW!

Two years of college! Did you have a teacher? Or were you self taught, after walking to school over five miles each way through the snow?

I have over two hundred credit hours of straight “a's including Greek and Shorthand. Is that special? I took 21 Semestewr hours two semesters, includiong my Freshman year. Does that make me glow in the dark?

All scholarship does is force men to compare bragging rights, and is valuless.

I don't care if you hold a Doctor's degree in forensic Greek debate, you still don't display a knowledge of Freshman Greek. You demonstrate a knowledge of how to open a commentary to see what you should think.

July 4, 2009 at 2:30 am#135993

KangarooJack

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ July 04 2009,13:33)

Quote (thethinker @ July 04 2009,05:40)

Paladin said:

Quote

Tell me somethng thinker;

In the following verses, which is the past tense?

John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

In the phrase “that ye may know,” the word “Know” is “gnwte”

gnwte is Subjunctive aorist active, but it certainly is NOT past tense.

The GREEK HAS NO PAST TENSE. It is TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH past tense, but that is not the same thing, because here is one of many exceptions, where it is NOT translated into English past tense.

I do not say this to cause you distress, I say this to help you understand where I am coming from.

Look at it again, and consider –

“though ye believe not me, believe the works: THAT YE MAY KNOW, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

“That ye may know” is in no way considered “past tense” but it is Greek Subjunctive Aorist.

A.T.Robertson has several pages on this subject. And that is just ONE of many Greek sources materials.

(thinker) Paladin,
You fail to distinguish between the subjunctive aorist and the indicative aorist. The indicative aorist is equivalent to our past tense verb. For example,

Κατὰ πίστιν ἀπέθανον οὗτοι πάντες
All these died in faith

The verb is 2 aorist indicative.

Philippians 2 says that Jesus emptied Himself. The verb is 1 aorist indicative.

Paladin said:

Quote

IMPRESSED!!!

WoW!

Two years of college! Did you have a teacher? Or were you self taught, after walking to school over five miles each way through the snow?

All scholarship does is force men to compare bragging rights, and is valuless.

Paladin,
Just answer my point regarding the distinction between the subjunctive and indicative aorist. Don't you think it is time for you to grow up? Btw, I applaud you on the way you got out of the debate and locked me out of the debate. But I started another thread in that forum exposing you.

Now about the distinction between the subjunctive and the indicative aorist: Answer please.

thinker

July 4, 2009 at 4:20 am#136006

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 03 2009,15:50)

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,06:37)

Bodhitharta said:

Quote

All the believers are one with God but that doesn't make us God, does it?

When I say that me and my wife are one it doesn't mean we are the same does it? It just means we have unity of purpose.

Bod,

It is possible for a husband and a wife to be one as you say in unity of purpose. But you fail to see that one has MANY meanings. For example, one can refer to the number 1. It can also mean one mind. It can mean unity of purpose. And it can mean one entity with different parts Here is an example. There is one class, but the class consists of many students. There is one God that contains three persons. It really isn't that hard.

TC27

Okay, so when you say that God died for your sins you just mean that 1 part of God died for your sins, right?

So in reality 2/3 of God did not die for your sins only 1/3 died for your sins so one part of God was dead and two parts were alive right?

Bod,

The BODY of Christ died. His BODY suffered. Jesus' soul was never killed. Just as when we die our souls live on. Christ's soul is eternal.

TC27

July 4, 2009 at 4:24 am#136007

Participant

Hi TC,
He died.[acts2]

Like all men his spirit left him[mt27.50], and presumably returned to God[Ecc12]

But the Spirit of God abides in all those destined to eternal life and he who is that source of life for us lives.

July 4, 2009 at 4:25 am#136008

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2009,16:53)

Hi BD,
They must believe in a god with parts and one part is mortal.
Of course our God is one and immortal.

Their god is a strange god.

Nick,

How dare you lower case the “G” in our God? Jesus was not mortal. The BODY was mortal, and even that was resurrected. So, to say that we believe in a god with a mortal part is just provocative and does not actually prove anything to your benefit. Yes, the body of Christ was killed, but his soul never actually died.

TC27

July 4, 2009 at 4:39 am#136011

Participant

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,16:20)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 03 2009,15:50)

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,06:37)

Bodhitharta said:

Quote

All the believers are one with God but that doesn't make us God, does it?

When I say that me and my wife are one it doesn't mean we are the same does it? It just means we have unity of purpose.

Bod,

TC27

Okay, so when you say that God died for your sins you just mean that 1 part of God died for your sins, right?

So in reality 2/3 of God did not die for your sins only 1/3 died for your sins so one part of God was dead and two parts were alive right?

Bod,

The BODY of Christ died. His BODY suffered. Jesus' soul was never killed. Just as when we die our souls live on. Christ's soul is eternal.

TC27

So how did he pay the price for your sins wasn't your punishment for your sins eternal hell?

Jesus is not in eternal Hell is he?

Or if you say the punishment was physical death only, then why will you still die physically?

July 4, 2009 at 5:05 am#136014

Country boy

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 04 2009,16:39)

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,16:20)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 03 2009,15:50)

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,06:37)

Bodhitharta said:

Quote

All the believers are one with God but that doesn't make us God, does it?

When I say that me and my wife are one it doesn't mean we are the same does it? It just means we have unity of purpose.

Bod,

TC27

Okay, so when you say that God died for your sins you just mean that 1 part of God died for your sins, right?

So in reality 2/3 of God did not die for your sins only 1/3 died for your sins so one part of God was dead and two parts were alive right?

Bod,

The BODY of Christ died. His BODY suffered. Jesus' soul was never killed. Just as when we die our souls live on. Christ's soul is eternal.

TC27

So how did he pay the price for your sins wasn't your punishment for your sins eternal hell?

Jesus is not in eternal Hell is he?

Or if you say the punishment was physical death only, then why will you still die physically?

Please do not think that there was no spiritual pain for Jesus at his death. Remember that he took mankind's sin upon himself. That's a lot of sin. Remember that he cried out, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” I believe that the Father forsaking Him was the worst part of the whole experience. And before you say anything, Jesus addressing the Father as God does not rule out his own deity. The Father is still God, even when separated from the Son.

This is a question you have to answer whether or not you believe that Jesus is God. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that you believe that Jesus is suffering in hell either.

July 4, 2009 at 5:13 am#136017

Participant

Hi CB,
You just told us he is his own Father so who was he crying out to?

July 4, 2009 at 5:43 am#136021

Participant

Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,17:05)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 04 2009,16:39)

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,16:20)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 03 2009,15:50)

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,06:37)

Bodhitharta said:

Quote

All the believers are one with God but that doesn't make us God, does it?

When I say that me and my wife are one it doesn't mean we are the same does it? It just means we have unity of purpose.

Bod,

TC27

Okay, so when you say that God died for your sins you just mean that 1 part of God died for your sins, right?

So in reality 2/3 of God did not die for your sins only 1/3 died for your sins so one part of God was dead and two parts were alive right?

Bod,

The BODY of Christ died. His BODY suffered. Jesus' soul was never killed. Just as when we die our souls live on. Christ's soul is eternal.

TC27

So how did he pay the price for your sins wasn't your punishment for your sins eternal hell?

Jesus is not in eternal Hell is he?

Or if you say the punishment was physical death only, then why will you still die physically?

This is a question you have to answer whether or not you believe that Jesus is God. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that you believe that Jesus is suffering in hell either.

No! I don't believe that Jesus is suffering in Hell, I believe that Jesus is in the presence of very close to Him.

Now you say that Jesus was seperated from God so in essense you are saying God was torn apart and forsook apart of himself. So part of the trinity was dissolved and 1 person of God died and the other 2 persons of God remained alive?

So what you are saying is during this time all the fulness of the Godhead was not dwelling in him?

Did God die for your sins? yes or No? if you say it was just the Body of Christ was that Body ever God?

Why would Jesus even say that? It doesn't sound like Jesus does it? Do you really believe that The Father forsaked him?

Jesus says the Father always listened to Him and the Quran says because of that God saved him from the cross

An-Nisa

157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

Remember this:

Hosea 6:5-7 (King James Version)

6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Matthew 12 (King James Version)

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

and

Matthew 9 (King James Version)

13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

God did not offer his son up for sacrifice the scripture says clearly that they plotted against Jesus a sacrifice is not a muder plot, is it?

but the Quran says:

54 And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
55 Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
56 “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”
57 “As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong.”
58 “This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom.”
59 The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be”. And he was.
60 The Truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt.

Yes Jesus “gotten” with a single word from God “Be” and he was. God does not sire children

July 4, 2009 at 5:58 am#136026

Participant

Hi BD,
Of what relevance are the teachings of your guru in the search for truth?

You offer us the Jewish Law quoted by Jesus to those who asked about it as if it related to you but are unwilling to become a Jew and obey it??

July 4, 2009 at 6:03 am#136030

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,17:58)

Hi BD,
Of what relevance are the teachings of your guru in the search for truth?

You offer us the Jewish Law quoted by Jesus to those who asked about it as if it related to you but are unwilling to become a Jew and obey it??

I obey the laws of God and I also pray often(Many times a day) and I am always grateful and yet I always ask for forgiveness and Mercy just in case I may have done something unknowingly. I ask for guidance everyday and I ask for protection against evil(Satan)

I put my trust in God always and I never confuse the persecution of men with punishment from God like some people do.

July 4, 2009 at 6:34 am#136047

Participant

Hi BD,
Piety alone saves nobody.
Listen to the pharisee in the temple.

Speaking of piety when will you stop attacking the work of the Holy Spirit?

July 4, 2009 at 6:40 am#136052

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,18:34)

Hi BD,
Piety alone saves nobody.
Listen to the pharisee in the temple.

Speaking of piety when will you stop attacking the work of the Holy Spirit?

You should really stop making false accusations bearing false witness is a sin

Also Piety does save, Jesus even said he didn't come to save the pious but the sinner. Obviously he was saying that those who glorify God don't need to be taught to glorify God.

July 4, 2009 at 8:46 pm#136110

Participant

Somebody tell me. What good is the death of Jesus if he was only a man? How can merely a man pay for all the sin that needed forgiveness, especially if he was forced to by God? Doesn't God coming to this earth and willingly sacrificing himself seem to be a better sacrifice than an obedient man? I sure believe so. God's love is that immeasurable.

TC27

July 4, 2009 at 8:53 pm#136111

Participant

Hi TC,

Why are men so important?
We are looking at the undeserved mercy of God.

Would you prefer the immortal God was to die?
Jesus had to be a man to die on behalf of men.
He chose death for our sin trusting in his God.

The scapegoat died for men.
He was the sacrifice unto God and not also the God to whom he was ascrificed.

July 4, 2009 at 8:58 pm#136112

Cindy

Participant

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 05 2009,08:46)

TC27

In Hebrew 1:8 God the Father is calling His Son God. So we do know that He became a man.
John 1:1 He is called God and in
verse 14 that Word became flesh. He was not just a mere man. He had the mind of God which His Father taught to Him. When it says that all have fallen short of the glory of God, we can understand that it had to be somebody special in order to save mankind.
Peace and Love Irene

July 4, 2009 at 9:07 pm#136114

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,12:53)

Hi TC,

Why are men so important?
We are looking at the undeserved mercy of God.

Would you prefer the immortal God was to die?
Jesus had to be a man to die on behalf of men.
He chose death for our sin trusting in his God.

The scapegoat died for men.
He was the sacrifice unto God and not also the God to whom he was ascrificed.

Nick,

Men are not so important; that is why a mere man as a sacrifice cannot be enough to pay for our sin. We are not great, but our sin is great. That is why Jesus has to be GREATER than that sin in order for it to be paid in full.

Ahhh, so you admit that Jesus chose his death? Would someone lesser than God be able to choose that? You contradict yourself.

TC27

July 4, 2009 at 9:09 pm#136116