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Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 15 2010,23:40) Quote (princess of the king @ Nov. 15 2010,21:02) In all your knowledge you may want to look up etiquette, and respond, thank you princess all is well with myself, hope to find you the same.
Hi Princess,In your reply to stu you said, “In all your knowledge you may want to look up etiquette, and respond, thank you princess all is well with myself, hope to find you the same. “
I have witnessed stu respond in exactly that way dozens of times on this forum, many times in fact to you.
To insinuate that not responding in this way one time somehow shows a lack of etiquette displays a lack of consideration in my opinion, that is not up to your usual high standards.I enjoy most of your posts anyway.
TIm
Thank you dear Timothy for bringing this to my attention. I did not mean to be inconsiderate to Stuart, my apologies.I will admit some of your post have made me laugh, which at times is needed.
Take care and much love to you and yours.
Quote (princess of the king @ Nov. 16 2010,12:18) Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 15 2010,23:40) Quote (princess of the king @ Nov. 15 2010,21:02) In all your knowledge you may want to look up etiquette, and respond, thank you princess all is well with myself, hope to find you the same.
Hi Princess,In your reply to stu you said, “In all your knowledge you may want to look up etiquette, and respond, thank you princess all is well with myself, hope to find you the same. “
I have witnessed stu respond in exactly that way dozens of times on this forum, many times in fact to you.
To insinuate that not responding in this way one time somehow shows a lack of etiquette displays a lack of consideration in my opinion, that is not up to your usual high standards.I enjoy most of your posts anyway.
TIm
Thank you dear Timothy for bringing this to my attention. I did not mean to be inconsiderate to Stuart, my apologies.I will admit some of your post have made me laugh, which at times is needed.
Take care and much love to you and yours.
Hi POK,How have you been?
God bless
Ed JQuote (Ed J @ Nov. 16 2010,04:38) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 14 2010,18:15) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 14 2010,17:27) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 14 2010,16:46) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 14 2010,16:23) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 14 2010,16:05) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 14 2010,14:59) Hi Stuart, I have been showing PROOF of his signature! (Click Here)
The PROOF is there, why do you keep turning a blind eye?Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
You have not shown there is a God.Stuart
Hi Stuart,Are you atheist or Agnostic?
I illustrated to you it's an “Intelligent Design”.
A design requires a designer, and the grand architect is YHVH!
Pretty simple! A man of Science would consider new evidence or discoveries!An Agnostic would certainly want to know whether God exists or not.
Only an atheist would strive to discredit any information regarding God's existence.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
An agnostic believe it is not possible to know whether gods exist or not. You would have to show him that it is possible to know whether gods exist before attempting to do the showing bit.However, you have not showed there is a god.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,You present 'faulty logic'. Faulty logic from a faulty belief (atheism)!
That's like saying I must first convince you a car exists,
before I can show you the evidence of a “Burn Out”.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Correct analogy.You have not shown that any god exists.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,Thanks for setting the record straight!
You at least admit your narrow-sightedness!
We could not PROVE to you oxygen exists either; …By your own admission!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
All you are doing is highlighting the word under my avatar. It is one of which I am proud, and I commend skepticism to you as a useful way of thinking, and one that protects you from the nonsense ideas of crackpots.What is your protection against crackpottery? Dogmatism?
Stuart
Hello PoftheK
Quote Dear friend, ever notice how you get a chip on your shoulder when you carry on conversation with ones that force feed you.
Spam is not a favourite food! Especially not spam from those who prostyletise. They have nothing to share but their own insecurity. I’m sure you would never dream of that activity!Quote Your defense goes up and it is back to square one. You go back to the little box of thinking and do not expand your thought process.
It is because I am thinking, and have thought about it a great deal that I reject evidence-free claims of UFOs, tarot card prophecy, religious prophecy, alien abductions, god belief and horoscopes. Are you open-minded to these other examples of woo in the way you appear to expect me to be?Quote Universally you have faith in science, your beliefs stem on the facts of science. You believe the same as a christian does, different subject matter. There is not much difference Stuart.
Science is not a faith-based initiative. I can read a paper in a scientific journal and, at least in principle, can try out the same experiment as the author and test for myself whether the claims in the article stack up. I do not own a mass spectrometer, for example, so I cannot perform my own isotope studies at home, but I can have trust in the professional integrity and accountability of the scientist who does have access to the mass spectrometer and who did the measurements. I also have the assurance of the peer reviewers of that paper that the claims stack up in line with the evidence, on pain of their professional reputations.What do we have in the case of god belief? No evidence, no peer review (but much disagreement about what “god” means), and no accountability for claims made. We do have lots of allegations of things that no one has ever been able to verify, no matter what equipment they can access.
I do not believe what a christian does, although many christians also do science for a living. All I can conclude is that they must keep two parts of their brains from ever talking to one another: the part that believes nothing which cannot be verified by evidence would be at war with the part that says you should believe things in the absence of evidence, and even that it is a virtue to believe without evidence.
Quote How much more do you think Newton could have achieved in science if it were not for ones like you that debunked his belief in a creator, for that matter any great mind of science.
If he had not wasted his time on religious woo perhaps he would have had more time to devote to that for which he is seriously remembered!Quote Ben Franklin's 13 words of meditation should be thrown out also, due to the last mentions faith.
The last suggests you imitate Jesus and Socrates. What does that mean?Quote So your bottom line thinking is anyone who believes in science cannot believe in a creator, strange thought process.
It is obviously not true that scientists cannot believe in a creator, because something like 40% of them do. However, I make the provisional conclusion that there is no such thing as a creator because, if a creator is something that intervenes intelligently in some kind of surprising or incomprehensible way, there is no unambiguous evidence for one at all.Quote Can you prove to me that there is not a creator?
No. I cannot prove anything to you, except in mathematics, which is in self-referential and therefore allows proofs. Also, it is not possible to prove a negative.Anyway, I don’t actually know what you mean by a creator, and I would suggest you don’t really either. Have you considered exactly what you are claiming this creator actually did? For exactly what acts do we seek some kind of evidence? This is the most significant problem with god-belief. The believer is convinced that the word “god” means everything and explains everything, but actually it is only an invented name. There is no explaining power to be had by the word “creator”. There IS the power to confuse and mystify, which of course is the goal of the religious, to cloud others in doubt so their delusion appears reassuringly more mainstream to them.
Quote I have read what you write, even though your knowledge is in science, you still to this day as yet to explain how everything fits so perfect, the big bang is a no in my book, evolution yeah, understand does not really give the answers, natural selection okay, pysch 101 how does that make you feel, been there.
Is it me now who is showing the closed mind? WHY is the Big Bang “no”? There is only ONE explanation for how we came to be on this planet, and it fits all the evidence we have ever uncovered. Can you show it is wrong? Otherwise what is your basis for discarding it?Quote Really Stuart, you just pull your information from a different book. You even have a hard time with any text that reflects good in life. You miss a lot when looking through a microscope all the time, the little things in life are the most precious to me. Just my thoughts.
Fair enough, and I guess there has always been a place for the telling of fictional stories amongst humans. But I also like the little things that actually exist.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 16 2010,13:15) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 16 2010,04:38) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 14 2010,18:15) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 14 2010,17:27) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 14 2010,16:46) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 14 2010,16:23) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 14 2010,16:05) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 14 2010,14:59) Hi Stuart, I have been showing PROOF of his signature! (Click Here)
The PROOF is there, why do you keep turning a blind eye?Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
You have not shown there is a God.Stuart
Hi Stuart,Are you atheist or Agnostic?
I illustrated to you it's an “Intelligent Design”.
A design requires a designer, and the grand architect is YHVH!
Pretty simple! A man of Science would consider new evidence or discoveries!An Agnostic would certainly want to know whether God exists or not.
Only an atheist would strive to discredit any information regarding God's existence.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
An agnostic believe it is not possible to know whether gods exist or not. You would have to show him that it is possible to know whether gods exist before attempting to do the showing bit.However, you have not showed there is a god.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,You present 'faulty logic'. Faulty logic from a faulty belief (atheism)!
That's like saying I must first convince you a car exists,
before I can show you the evidence of a “Burn Out”.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Correct analogy.You have not shown that any god exists.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,Thanks for setting the record straight!
You at least admit your narrow-sightedness!
We could not PROVE to you oxygen exists either; …By your own admission!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
All you are doing is highlighting the word under my avatar. It is one of which I am proud, and I commend skepticism to you as a useful way of thinking, and one that protects you from the nonsense ideas of crackpots.What is your protection against crackpottery? Dogmatism?
Stuart
Hi Stuart,My protection is YHVH!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Stu @ Nov. 16 2010,13:48) Hello PoftheK Quote Can you prove to me that there is not a creator?
No. I cannot prove anything to you, except in mathematics, which is in self-referential and therefore allows proofs.
Also, it is not possible to prove a negative.Stuart
Hi Stuart,But with Theomatics (mathematics in Scripture) it's possible to PROVE a positive! (Click Here)
With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. (Mark 10:27)Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 16 2010,14:27) What actually exists?
Things that fall under the assumptions of what you see is what you get, and I think therefore I am.I don't claim to be able to prove anything, all I have is those assumption plus the evidence that can be collected in relation to things that appear to be associated with those assumptions.
If I could reduce the number of assumptions further I would.
There is one assumption held by many here that, if eliminated, would end their god belief. Is a reduction in the number of working assumptions a goal of yours, or am I ahead in that department?
Stuart
Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 16 2010,15:03) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 16 2010,13:48) Hello PoftheK Quote Can you prove to me that there is not a creator?
No. I cannot prove anything to you, except in mathematics, which is in self-referential and therefore allows proofs.
Also, it is not possible to prove a negative.Stuart
Hi Stuart,But with Theomatics (mathematics in Scripture) it's possible to PROVE a positive! (Click Here)
With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. (Mark 10:27)Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
You have not shown there is a god.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 16 2010,20:34) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 16 2010,15:03) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 16 2010,13:48) Hello PoftheK Quote Can you prove to me that there is not a creator?
No. I cannot prove anything to you, except in mathematics, which is in self-referential and therefore allows proofs.
Also, it is not possible to prove a negative.Stuart
Hi Stuart,But with Theomatics (mathematics in Scripture) it's possible to PROVE a positive! (Click Here)
With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. (Mark 10:27)Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
You have not shown there is a god.Stuart
Hi Stuart,No-one has ever shown oxygen either,
but yet you believe oxygen exists.No-one has ever shown you wind,
but yet you believe wind exists.No-one has ever shown you a mind,
but yet you believe minds exist.In each of those cases, all you can really see
is an effect, to indicate that they do exist.
Well, the same is true of YHVH! I have
shown you his effect, but you refuse
to believe. God's signature in his
book is PROOF of his existence! (Click Here)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgT8 wrote:
Quote It leads to either everything coming from someone, something, or nothing. If there was nothing there would be nothing now.
If there was something it would have to be an eternal something otherwise it would be preceded by nothing. It also has the IQ of zero and yet came up with all this brilliant design that not even the best intellects can understand, never mind replicate.
That leaves a creator. And everything is explained easily with the creator option.This is the type of evidence that many ignore including Stu and perhaps yourself?
This is not evidence. This is a philosophical proposition. Right or wrong, you would still need something further to constitute evidence.
In any case, you appear to be recanting your own previous statement that “the truth has to be ludicrous because it will be so far removed from our everyday experience of life.” You are trying to give a common sense argument for something that you admit is both uncommon and unlikely to make any sense from our four dimensional point of view. You can't have it both ways.
Which is it, T8? Is the creation of the universe a common sense event, explainable and understandable to human beings in our limited sense of what may lie beyond our universe, or is it an uncommon event that will likely defy our ability to explain it or even fully understand it?
T8 wrote:
Quote There is very good and plentiful evidence that there is a creator. There is no evidence or reason for fairies existence.
They are not in the same ball park.Great. Please list your top three pieces of evidence for a creator. (Please do not beg the question by listing things like, “we exist”, because the reason we exist is the very thing that is up for debate. Also, please do not list analogies. Analogies are good for illustrating a point, but they do not constitute evidence.)
As for fairies, see here.
T8 wrote:
Quote It is certainly true that you cannot know anything until you experience it. Well that goes for most things. If I was blind from birth, then how would I know what blue looks like. And of course scripture plainly states that people can be blind to God.
So I agree with your post.
In addition to that, people say all kinds of things that they might have experienced that are not true. Sometimes people believe something so much that they just make it truth and point all evidence to their way of seeing things.
So yes we have experience and that is what makes the difference. However, as far as the idea of a creator. It is the only viable explanation, and thus it is correctly written that the fool has said in his heart that there is no God. This was written because it is true. If you deny God, then you are left only with everything coming from nothing which is impossible or something eternal with no conscious or IQ producing a complex and wonderful universe.
So about the evidence part, I just say to you that common sense is overlooked by Atheists.
This whole post is extremely ironic. How can you say, “people say all kinds of things that they might have experienced that are not true,” and follow it up with, “yes we have experience and that is what makes the difference“? The first statement begs for evidence in addition to experience whereas the second statement makes experience the defining factor. How do you hold such opposing ideas so closely together in your head?
As for the rest of your statement about common sense, etc., see above.
I find the great difficulty here is trying to understand that God exists independent of the feelings or experience of oneself simply because of the experience of oneself could be hallucinatory and although another person could also experience the same Hallucination it is quite less likely. But the entire realm of existence acts this way which lends to the credibility of existence itself forming creative reality.
Creative Reality is only creative because it is Conscious if there is no awareness in creation there is no identity to what is created, if there is no you there is no chair, door, house…etc to you and this is the crux of the matter. We live in an Ocean of levels of Awareness and this is a Fact. Hence, factually it is technically correct to suppose that the Oject of a Subject is to be subject to an Object.
Inherent Consciousness is then defacto in all recognition and in all existence, now what does this have to do with God?
Supreme Beingness would need to be Happening at a source level that is also inherently objective and subjectively defined as IS or Supreme Being IS. Identity at the source level is impossible to define because the source awareness is Projective
It is what it IS and will be what it will be, Hence: GOD Almighty! not in the sense of subjective Identity or Objective reality but moreso the reality of projected Identity inherent in aware beings in a subjectively creative objective reality only identified through inherent Supreme Consciousness i.e. IT ONLY IS BECAUSE IT IS. So you can only experience God or not experience God through the experience provided by that level of awareness which is perceived in the entire spectrum of that which is projected.
This can be readily proven with color, light, sound and all sorts of knowledge in general.
Algebra does not exist to an uneducated 2 year old nor can it be “proven”
Certain colors do not exist to the color blind
Sound Engineers often perceive sounds that others don't believe exist nor can they hear them
Remote controls do the seemingly impossible (The invisible affecting the visible)
It's like this post people across the world will see it the same minute I send it Although most people in the world will never be aware of this post but it is being projected so does it exist or does it only exist when people identify it?Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 16 2010,22:11) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 16 2010,20:34) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 16 2010,15:03) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 16 2010,13:48) Hello PoftheK Quote Can you prove to me that there is not a creator?
No. I cannot prove anything to you, except in mathematics, which is in self-referential and therefore allows proofs.
Also, it is not possible to prove a negative.Stuart
Hi Stuart,But with Theomatics (mathematics in Scripture) it's possible to PROVE a positive! (Click Here)
With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. (Mark 10:27)Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
You have not shown there is a god.Stuart
Hi Stuart,No-one has ever shown oxygen either,
but yet you believe oxygen exists.No-one has ever shown you wind,
but yet you believe wind exists.No-one has ever shown you a mind,
but yet you believe minds exist.In each of those cases, all you can really see
is an effect, to indicate that they do exist.
Well, the same is true of YHVH! I have
shown you his effect, but you refuse
to believe. God's signature in his
book is PROOF of his existence! (Click Here)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
People have shown that oxygen exists. People have shown me wind: it is the thing that pushes on my hands when I stick them into a gale-force Northerly, and believe me we have plenty of those in Wellington. Mind is a term used to describe particular human experiences and observations, and there is a theory of mind that links it to the brain. I think there is very sound reason in each case to believe these things exist, including “mind”, even as a concept.You have never shown that any god exists.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 17 2010,13:16) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 16 2010,22:11) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 16 2010,20:34) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 16 2010,15:03) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 16 2010,13:48) Hello PoftheK Quote Can you prove to me that there is not a creator?
No. I cannot prove anything to you, except in mathematics, which is in self-referential and therefore allows proofs.
Also, it is not possible to prove a negative.Stuart
Hi Stuart,But with Theomatics (mathematics in Scripture) it's possible to PROVE a positive! (Click Here)
With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. (Mark 10:27)Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
You have not shown there is a god.Stuart
Hi Stuart,No-one has ever shown oxygen either,
but yet you believe oxygen exists.No-one has ever shown you wind,
but yet you believe wind exists.No-one has ever shown you a mind,
but yet you believe minds exist.In each of those cases, all you can really see
is an effect, to indicate that they do exist.
Well, the same is true of YHVH! I have
shown you his effect, but you refuse
to believe. God's signature in his
book is PROOF of his existence! (Click Here)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
People have shown that oxygen exists. People have shown me wind: it is the thing that pushes on my hands when I stick them into a gale-force Northerly, and believe me we have plenty of those in Wellington. Mind is a term used to describe particular human experiences and observations, and there is a theory of mind that links it to the brain. I think there is very sound reason in each case to believe these things exist, including “mind”, even as a concept.You have never shown that any god exists.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,Like I told you, you merely believe the effects!
But yet ‘you’ deny the effects that PROVE God?
Why is that? Atheists pose NO intellectual threat!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Stu @ Nov. 16 2010,20:33) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 16 2010,14:27) What actually exists?
Things that fall under the assumptions of what you see is what you get, and I think therefore I am.I don't claim to be able to prove anything, all I have is those assumption plus the evidence that can be collected in relation to things that appear to be associated with those assumptions.
If I could reduce the number of assumptions further I would.
There is one assumption held by many here that, if eliminated, would end their god belief. Is a reduction in the number of working assumptions a goal of yours, or am I ahead in that department?
Stuart
Greetings Stu….At a risk of being flipant,and with all due consideration to your position on assumptions….Is there a possibility you could be wrong on your assumption that,There is no higher authority that we all know as God….Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 14 2010,14:44) You admit that you don't know! Yet you try to convince others
of something that you are not sure of yourself. Is this not insanity?
Insanity, denial, ignorance, lack of intellect, bias, or something else along those lines.Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 14 2010,14:31) Hi T8, Most things come from both someone and something.
Nothing into something requires a magician.God bless
Ed J
Stu knows that rabbits don't appear out of nothing and so is not conned by the 'rabbit out of the hat' trick. But he is conned with the 'universe out of the nothing' trick.Quote (t8 @ Nov. 18 2010,09:41) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 14 2010,14:31) Hi T8, Most things come from both someone and something.
Nothing into something requires a magician.God bless
Ed J
Stu knows that rabbits don't appear out of nothing and so is not conned by the 'rabbit out of the hat' trick. But he is conned with the 'universe out of the nothing' trick.
Hi T8,Yea; ain't that something! Oops, I mean nothing.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (t8 @ Nov. 18 2010,09:39) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 14 2010,14:44) You admit that you don't know! Yet you try to convince others
of something that you are not sure of yourself. Is this not insanity?
Insanity, denial, ignorance, lack of intellect, bias, or something else along those lines.
Hi T8,Yea; I guess I can be a bit harsh sometimes.
Please forgive me Stuart. I believe you are sane!
But the belief is most assuredly a belief of insanity!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (theodorej @ Nov. 18 2010,00:00) Greetings Stu….At a risk of being flipant,and with all due consideration to your position on assumptions….Is there a possibility you could be wrong on your assumption that,There is no higher authority that we all know as God….
Saying that there is no God is like saying there is no life outside the Earth in the universe.It is a belief that is impossible to prove but possible to disprove.
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