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OK, I have been debating with Stu and others about the existence of God and in my experience, no Atheist has ever posed any threat to the existence of a creator and I doubt that they ever will. Their best defense seems to be to dodge questions about the cause of everything, and they try to engage you in the details after the fact which has no bearing on a creator or not. This is no defense at all.
I also think that the only power that Atheists have is over those with a weak mind or who are lost and hence they do get converts to their religion. It is hard to quantify how much of the worlds population is atheist, but at least one study suggests 2.5%. That puts it between primal-indigenous and African Traditional & Diasporic religions.
Do you agree that Atheists arguments pose no intellectual threat to believing in a creator? Or do you think there is merit to their belief that God doesn't exist and that they have some valid theories to back this up?
I think that you have a short term memory. In another thread, you wrote:
Quote For me the only reasonable explanation is there is a creator who is eternal. No one made him because he is eternal. Yes that is ludicrous, but I have evidence for this and I don't have a problem having to believe in the ludicrous because ludicrous is the only option on the table. And:
Quote I said that all positions were ludicrous and that those who say that they don't believe in God because it is ludicrous are ignoring the fact that the truth has to be ludicrous because it will be so far removed from our everyday experience of life. If you want to turn this into an intellectual contest, you have it completely backwards. Christians pose no intellectual threat! Why? Because Christians stop at Genesis 1:1 and go no further. Atheists/secularists actually try to discover how the universe came to be and what laws govern its functions. The truth is that no one knows for certain how our universe came to be. There are rigorous theories that don't involve god(s), and then there is the unsubstantiated claim that “God did it!”. The former requires intellectual curiosity and methodical investigation. The latter requires nothing but belief, whether it is backed up by intellectual curiosity or not.
As a somewhat related aside, my wife is in the habit of telling our kids that “God did such and such” whenever they ask a question that would require a deeper explanation than they (or she) might understand. The other day, after asking my oldest son not do something, he proceeded to repeat the same behavior while I briefly left the room. When I asked him why he did it, he said, “God made me do it.” He has understood the concept perfectly. Whenever he can't explain something, he can attribute it to God, and the conversation is over! Christians are very much like my son.
So, until Christians begin espousing a specific explanation that does not begin with the word “God” and end with “did it”, Christians aren't even in the intellectual game. It doesn't mean that they are wrong. It just means that they don't really know anything. (For the record, I did N0T accept that answer from my son either.)
T8, why don't you start by sharing the evidence to which you refer in the first quote?
WhatIsTrue Atheists think they have intellectual evidence that says that God doesn't exist.
In my experience they have none.This is not about Christian anything but the existence of God or a creator only.
And yes God is ludicrous when you think that there is this someone in the sky as that is how many Atheists see this God.
But it has to be said that God is the only valid explanation and there is a reason as to why it is written, “the fool has said in his heart there is no God”. I tend to agree with this verse wholeheartedly.WIT, there is nothing wrong with exposing the supposed intellectual threat that Atheists claim to have when it doesn't appear to exist. If you don't like the topic, then you don't have to participate. And remember that we are all used in different ways, so why get upset about that?
Quote 18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
And God doesn't make anyone do anything. He does give you the freedom to choose.
Love in Christ,
MartyHow can you be a threat to something that isn't there?
I hope you don't think it was me who claimed there is evidence that there is no god. That would be attempting to prove a negative. I have said that it is a provisional scientific conclusion that there are no gods because there is no unambiguous evidence for their existence. This is a fact, and a valid conclusion to draw based on that fact.
As for the rest, I'll leave it to WhatIsTrue. He has put it very well.
Stuart
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Nov. 03 2010,03:24) T8, why don't you start by sharing the evidence to which you refer in the first quote?
I wouldn't know where to start and besides, that would never convince Stu because he is not interested in the truth anyway. But if you are really interested, feel free to go to the Testimonies Forum.Stu's only use here is to use him as a demonstration as to how easy it is to pull down all Atheistic theories that try to disprove God. So think of him as a proxy for all Atheists.
Part of our job as believers is to teach sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. If we don't bother to refute, then a seed can grow into a big tree and most of the lies that are prevalent in societies today could have been prevented if people were willing to refute them before they got too powerful.
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 03 2010,16:42) How can you be a threat to something that isn't there?
This statement proves you are no threat because you ignore all the clues and instead just make statements based on bias. That is not science, nor is it logical, and so we have nothing to worry about. Of course I thought this before debating with you, but time has shown that this is still the case.You have had ample opportunity to blow us out of the water with you great understanding that there is supposedly no God. Yet all we have seen is a combination of bias, ignorance, and a blind faith in Hawkingism who Newton obviously disagrees with.
If I paid you to disprove God, I would be wanting a full refund plus compensation for wasted time, not to mention a full disclosure of your name so others wouldn't use your bogus service.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 03 2010,18:25) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Nov. 03 2010,03:24) T8, why don't you start by sharing the evidence to which you refer in the first quote?
I wouldn't know where to start and besides, that would never convince Stu because he is not interested in the truth anyway. But if you are really interested, feel free to go to the Testimonies Forum.Stu's only use here is to use him as a demonstration as to how easy it is to pull down all Atheistic theories that try to disprove God. So think of him as a proxy for all Atheists.
Part of our job as believers is to teach sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. If we don't bother to refute, then a seed can grow into a big tree and most of the lies that are prevalent in societies today could have been prevented if people were willing to refute them before they got to powerful.
Please show me where I have ever tried to “disprove god”. Please demonstrate that I am not interested in the truth, at least with a small t.Please explain to me how “testimony” has any value in determining the questions I ask of you.
Please give me one example of an “atheistic theory” apart from the obvious one that it is a provisional scientific conclusion that because there is no unambiguous evidence for gods that there is no such thing.
Demonstrate too why your doctrines have any value worth defending. I've never seen that from you either. You never respond to the pretty obvious point that your god would appear on many counts to be immoral in human terms. Can you do that without yet another exercise in platitude?
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 03 2010,18:33) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 03 2010,16:42) How can you be a threat to something that isn't there?
This statement proves you are no threat because you ignore all the clues and instead just make statements based on bias. That is not science, nor is it logical, and so we have nothing to worry about. Of course I thought this before debating with you, but time has shown that this is still the case.You have had ample opportunity to blow us out of the water with you great understanding that there is supposedly no God. Yet all we have seen is a combination of bias, ignorance, and a blind faith in Hawkingism who Newton obviously disagrees with.
If I paid you to disprove God, I would be wanting a full refund plus compensation for wasted time, not to mention a full disclosure of your name so others wouldn't use your bogus service.
What clues? The delusions of a pattern-seeking brain that has been hijacked by a virulent idea?I think you don't realise just how blown out of the water you actually are. Your scriptures are simply wrong on points of science. OK, maybe you concede that is acceptable. Consider then that your scriptures are wrong on many points of history. Perhaps that can be forgotten. Can we put aside that the basic premise of the NT is that you are saved because the Romans killed a Jewish preacher and that throughout it praises examples of immoral acts either by its god or other historical or fictionalised characters.
You have no answer to Hawking but mockery of him. You have blown your own arguments out of the water on that score. You can't even fight your way out of that one with platitudes by the look of it. What does it matter what Newton's opinion was? That is irrelevant to his demonstration of the laws of nature. He could have attributed them to the Roman god Vulcan for all the difference it would have made.
I would never accept payment for the challenge of disproving the existence of any god. That would go against my strict declaration that I am agnostic, wouldn't it. You are making a dishonest strawman here. Are you so blown out of the water that all you have is strawmen now?
Stuart
T8 wrote:
Quote WhatIsTrue Atheists think they have intellectual evidence that says that God doesn't exist.
In my experience they have none.Here is a simple question:
Can you prove that fairies do not exist? Yes or no?
(If you answer “Yes”, please summarize your case.)
T8 wrote:
Quote And yes God is ludicrous when you think that there is this someone in the sky as that is how many Atheists see this God. But it has to be said that God is the only valid explanation … . I did not think that I would have to spell this out for you, but you have already conceded that “all positions [are] ludicrous” and further that “the truth has to be ludicrous because it will be so far removed from our everyday experience of life”. Yet, you ridicule Stu for taking a ludicrous position concerning the beginning of our universe while you openly embrace your own ludicrous position. Don't you think that this is all a bit ludicrous?
The only thing that separates your position and Stu's is evidence, which leads me to … .
T8 wrote:
Quote …if you are really interested (in the evidence], feel free to go to the Testimonies Forum. Testimony? Is that the extent of your evidence? If so, you should really change the title of this thread to “Atheists pose no threat to my subjective experiences!”.
I don't know if you know this, but there are people who come to this forum all the time with testimonies, and they all radically differ on questions of god. For example, the resident Muslim here claims to have healed people. Are you doing a thorough investigation of Islam as a result?
If you really want to get into the intellectual game, you need an actual falsifiable theory on how God created the universe, and then you would need to point to the evidence that satisfies that theory in contradiction of all other competing theories. Do you have anything like that?
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 03 2010,19:35) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 03 2010,18:25) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Nov. 03 2010,03:24) T8, why don't you start by sharing the evidence to which you refer in the first quote?
I wouldn't know where to start and besides, that would never convince Stu because he is not interested in the truth anyway. But if you are really interested, feel free to go to the Testimonies Forum.Stu's only use here is to use him as a demonstration as to how easy it is to pull down all Atheistic theories that try to disprove God. So think of him as a proxy for all Atheists.
Part of our job as believers is to teach sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. If we don't bother to refute, then a seed can grow into a big tree and most of the lies that are prevalent in societies today could have been prevented if people were willing to refute them before they got to powerful.
Please show me where I have ever tried to “disprove god”. Please demonstrate that I am not interested in the truth, at least with a small t.Please explain to me how “testimony” has any value in determining the questions I ask of you.
Please give me one example of an “atheistic theory” apart from the obvious one that it is a provisional scientific conclusion that because there is no unambiguous evidence for gods that there is no such thing.
Demonstrate too why your doctrines have any value worth defending. I've never seen that from you either. You never respond to the pretty obvious point that your god would appear on many counts to be immoral in human terms. Can you do that without yet another exercise in platitude?
Stuart
Hi Everyone,Here is your PROOF everybody,
that Stuart really isn't interested in the truth! (Click Here)Quote (Stu @ Nov. 03 2010,19:47) Your scriptures are simply wrong on points of science. Stuart
Hi Stuart,You are a LIAR! And I will PROVE it…
I met your challenge! (Click Here) <–Third Post!
You asked for one piece of evidence and I produced three!
Now your closing your monkey eyes to truth, as your avatar demonstrates.Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd J,
I have a simple question for you: Is your number system subjective or objective?
In other words, can I use the system independent of you to reach valid conclusions? If so, please list the rules that govern the system so that your claim can be verified.
To Wit,
Here is the meaningful pattern…
…………………God's signature
YHVH=63 (God's Name: יהוה transliterated into English)
יהוה=26 (God's Name: YHVH is pronounced YÄ-hä-vā)
Jesus=74 (God's Son's Name in English is: “Joshua”)
God The Father=117 (Representing GOD: יהוה האלהים)
HolySpirit=151 (“FATHER: The word”: in all believers!)There are EXACTLY five words for “God” the Greek (all are pronounced Thēôs); they are…
Four (4) of these are “plural” forms of the word; only one (1) is used in “singular” form.1) θεος
2) θεου
3) θεω
4) θεον
5) θεεAlso a matching aspect to the five variants for God in The Hebrew Masoretic texts…
1) Strong’s 426: אלה (ĔL-äh) elah: corresponding to 433; God:-God, god.
2) Strong’s 433: אלוה (ĔL-ō-äh) eloah: from 410; a deity or The Deity:-God, god. See 430
3) Strong’s 6697: צור (tsû-är) tsoor: a rock; a refuge(house); X(times) mighty God, sharp, X stone, X strength.
4) Strong’s 430: אלהים (ĔL-ō-Hêêm) elohiym: plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense;
but specifically used in the plural of the supreme God; angels, X exceedingly; God, X great, judges, X mighty.
5) Strong’s 410: אל (ĔL) ale: mighty; strength; The Almighty (also used of any deity):- God, X goodly, X great; power.Also matching the number of times JEHOVAH is used in singular form in the “AKJV Bible”(74)…
1) JEHOVAH is My Name “YHVH”=63 (Exodus 6:3)
2) JEHOVAH is The Most High “GOD The Father”=117 (Psalm 83:18)
3) The LORD JEHOVAH=151 is [The Savior=117] in “Jesus Christ”=151 (Isaiah 12:2)
4) The LORD JEHOVAH=151 is Everlasting strength in “Holy Spirit”=151 (Isaiah 26:4)
5) JAH (Psalm 68:4) The Name of “GOD”=26 is יהוה=26 spoken as “YÄ”=26 and “YÄ-hä-vāGod bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Note: JEHOVAH is also used in exactly “three” phrases in the AKJV Bible.Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,23:38) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 03 2010,19:47) Your scriptures are simply wrong on points of science. Stuart
Hi Stuart,You are a LIAR! And I will PROVE it…
I met your challenge! (Click Here) <–Third Post!
You asked for one piece of evidence and I produced three!
Now your closing your monkey eyes to truth, as your avatar demonstrates.Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
I think you might be forgetting that you twisted the words to a different meaning to make your scriptures fit your modern knowledge of science. It did not say anywhere that the universe is expanding, even though you claimed it did say that.It was not me that was lying.
Anyway, it is a fact that there was no global flood, and it is a fact that the earth did not exist before light. That is two scientific points on which the bible is wrong and that is all I need for my claim to be true. Of course there are many more examples, and there is a thread on it here somewhere too if you care to look.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,
Look at the grand canyon for proof of the flood!
Both light and the Earth were created on the first day.
Are you lying again? There is plenty of evidence for the flood.Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Nov. 07 2010,16:58) Hi Stuart, Look at the grand canyon for proof of the flood!
Both light and the Earth were created on the first day.
Are you lying again? There is plenty of evidence for the flood.Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
There is no evidence for a global flood. How is the Grand Canyon such evidence??If you think light was created before the earth then I don't think you have read Genesis lately.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 07 2010,17:32) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 07 2010,16:58) Hi Stuart, Look at the grand canyon for proof of the flood!
Both light and the Earth were created on the first day.
Are you lying again? There is plenty of evidence for the flood.Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
There is no evidence for a global flood. How is the Grand Canyon such evidence??If you think light was created before the earth then I don't think you have read Genesis lately.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,Atheists pose NO intellectual threat to God.
The flood waters drained off the land creating the grand canyon.The bible doesn't say that the Earth was created first,
but only that they both were created on the first day!Science suggests that the heaven was created before Earth.
This is what “The Bible”(63) clearly says as well; Stuart!אלהים(God) ĔL-ō-Hêêm(63) = YHVH(63)
In 23 the 33 beginning 81 God 26(ĔL-ō-Hêêm)
created 56 the 33 heaven 55 = 307 (63rd prime #)Genesis 1:1-5 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face
of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God
said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good:
and God divided the light from the darkness(rotation). And God called the light Day, and the
darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.The Day(63) = YHVH(63) AND The Night(91) = darkness(91)
Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 07 2010,21:31) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 07 2010,17:32) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 07 2010,16:58) Hi Stuart, Look at the grand canyon for proof of the flood!
Both light and the Earth were created on the first day.
Are you lying again? There is plenty of evidence for the flood.Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
There is no evidence for a global flood. How is the Grand Canyon such evidence??If you think light was created before the earth then I don't think you have read Genesis lately.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,Atheists pose NO intellectual threat to God.
The flood waters drained off the land creating the grand canyon.The bible doesn't say that the Earth was created first,
but only that they both were created on the first day!Science suggests that the heaven was created before Earth.
This is what “The Bible”(63) clearly says as well; Stuart!אלהים(God) ĔL-ō-Hêêm(63) = YHVH(63)
In 23 the 33 beginning 81 God 26(ĔL-ō-Hêêm)
created 56 the 33 heaven 55 = 307 (63rd prime #)Genesis 1:1-5 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face
of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God
said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good:
and God divided the light from the darkness(rotation). And God called the light Day, and the
darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.The Day(63) = YHVH(63) AND The Night(91) = darkness(91)
Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
I think you will find that the bible does say that everything was created by your god. The chronology of Genesis is that the earth existed before light. Still if you are suggesting that the earth is not a divine creation I would not object, because we know how the earth came to be, and no christian has ever explained what that has to do with their god.Water draining through the Grand Canyon is indeed the reason it is there. I ask you again, how is that evidence for a global flood?
Stuart
Hi Stuart,
I just proved to you that the Bible says that they were both
created the same day; why do you say otherwise?Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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