Atheism

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Wakeup @ April 13 2012,22:03)

Peace can only come to the world,if every person has that peace inside them. This is what God is working on now for generations. From one generation to the next,untill it is enough according to Gods plan. wakeup.

God must be slowing down with age.
It only took him six days to create the entire universe and everything that is in it.

Then it took him forty days to write down ten commandments.

Now it is taking him generations to create peace, and he still hasn't accomplished it.

Tim

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ April 14 2012,02:28)

Your scripture mandates tithing

Hi Stuart,

                   Tithing was for national care of other, not for religious sects.
                   “Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions
                   every man to his brother: And oppress not the widow, nor
                   the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; (Zech 7:9-10)

Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house,
and prove me now herewith, saith the “LORD of Hosts”, if I will not open you the windows
of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ April 14 2012,02:39)

Quote (Stu @ April 14 2012,02:28) Your scripture mandates tithing Hi Stuart,                    Tithing was for national care of other, not for religious sects.                    “Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions                    every man to his brother: And oppress not the widow, nor                    the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; (Zech 7:9-10) Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the “LORD of Hosts”, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Stuart,

Modern Governments call this principal “taxes”.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ April 14 2012,02:28)

Happily there is no evidence of either the god or the judgment. Stuart

Hi Stuart,

The problems in the world is God's judgment for the nations turning away form him.
Like for example: the prosperity of the USA is faltering because of abortion being legalized in 1973.
Ex 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Wakeup]

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 14 2012,02:37)

Quote (Wakeup @ April 13 2012,22:03) Peace can only come to the world,if every person has that peace inside them. This is what God is working on now for generations. From one generation to the next,untill it is enough according to Gods plan. wakeup. God must be slowing down with age. It only took him six days to create the entire universe and everything that is in it. Then it took him forty days to write down ten commandments. Now it is taking him generations to create peace, and he still hasn't accomplished it. Tim

Hi Timothy.

God is not slow,But he is revealing him self to many generations(not just one) up to the last generation,which is todays generation.
And to know this, you need to study the prophesies.

It does not say that God created the universe in 6 days,if you read genesis 1:1.2. And concentrate.

God started to count the days after the light was created.
There are no days with no light.

It took Moses 40 days to get the 10 commandments for a reason.To put the israelites to the test; how faithful they are to their God and to their prophet,Moses. And also to sift out the good from the bad,for there were many of them that have the philosophy of the egyptians,mainly the older generation.And they were all destroyed,for not to contaminate the rest.

wakeup.

wakeup.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Wakeup @ April 14 2012,04:46)

It does not say that God created the universe in 6 days,if you read genesis 1:1.2. And concentrate. God started to count the days after the light was created. There are no days with no light. wakeup.

I see the problem now Wake up.
You haven't read past Gen 1 yet.

Genesis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.

I assume that there were six days before the seventh.

Tim

[Wakeup]

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 14 2012,05:15)

Quote (Wakeup @ April 14 2012,04:46) It does not say that God created the universe in 6 days,if you read genesis 1:1.2. And concentrate. God started to count the days after the light was created. There are no days with no light. wakeup. I see the problem now Wake up. You haven't read past Gen 1 yet. Genesis 2 1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. I assume that there were six days before the seventh. Tim

Timothy.

Gen.1:1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.(no day one yet).

1:2. And the earth was without form, and void; and DARKNESS was upon the face of the deep. and the spirit of God moved upon the waters.(no day one or day two yet).

1:3. Day one started here. and verse 5. is the first day.IN CHAP.2.is just a summery,of ch.1.

On the 6th day God had finished his work (what he had on scedule for that time).That job is done. And God stopped working on the 7th day(God does not need a rest?). the 7th day is an example for them, to rest also; so they can give their slaves and animals a chance to have a brake.

Humans tend to get greedy,and overworking their slaves and animals.

wakeup.

[Stu]

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 14 2012,02:37)

Then it took him forty days to write down ten commandments.

And apparently before that it took 180,000 years for this god to realise the commandments needed to be published in writing.

Stuart

[Wakeup]

Quote (Stu @ April 15 2012,22:22)

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 14 2012,02:37) Then it took him forty days to write down ten commandments. And apparently before that it took 180,000 years for this god to realise the commandments needed to be published in writing. Stuart

Hi Stu.

You can not prove the theory of evolution either,But you just blindly follow a theory,without any questions.

How does the scientist proof the human skeletons found,that are 30 ft tall? They cant,so they keep very silent about it,as if it does not exist. They are not honest human beings.

Can books exist; because there is a big explosion in a printing press? Can cars come to be; because a great whirlwind went through a junk yard? Do you have a conscience? what is that?
And can you proof that you have a conscience;and what is conscience.

wakeup.

wakeup.

[Stu]

Quote (Wakeup @ April 17 2012,23:10)

Quote (Stu @ April 15 2012,22:22) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 14 2012,02:37) Then it took him forty days to write down ten commandments. And apparently before that it took 180,000 years for this god to realise the commandments needed to be published in writing. Stuart Hi Stu. You can not prove the theory of evolution either

I never said anyone could. But it has not been disproved in 153 years. Every subsequently discovered piece of evidence has fit Darwin’s theory, and none has not fit it.

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But you just blindly follow a theory,without any questions.

You could, but that would be moronic. Any theory that cannot explain the evidence deserves to die. What really happens most of the time is that theories get modified. Darwin’s has been one of the least modified scientific theories of all time, and that’s with all sorts of different flavours of creationist having a go at it, too.

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How does the scientist proof the human skeletons found,that are 30 ft tall?

Reference please.

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They cant,so they keep very silent about it,as if it does not exist. They are not honest human beings.

Reference please, if you are an honest human.

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Can books exist; because there is a big explosion in a printing press? Can cars come to be; because a great whirlwind went through a junk yard?

Books and cars are designed. Humans aren’t. It’s really that simple.

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Do you have a conscience? what is that? And can you proof that you have a conscience;and what is conscience.

Conscience is the set of behaviours that are genetically determined (and environmentally conditioned in us) as a result of natural selection, because of the survival advantage of those behaviours, or because some advantageous behaviours produce byproduct behaviours.

One example is the advantage in a tribe of humans all believing in a supernatural policeman that leads to them working well together as a group, but results in the byproduct of them believing in Imaginary Beings that aren’t really there.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (Ed J @ April 14 2012,03:04)

Quote (Stu @ April 14 2012,02:28) Happily there is no evidence of either the god or the judgment. Stuart Hi Stuart, The problems in the world is God's judgment for the nations turning away form him.

The problem for this god, whatever it is, is that humans have judged the god and are finding that it isn't really there. It was invented by earlier people.

Stuart

[Wakeup]

Quote (Stu @ April 19 2012,01:19)

Quote (Ed J @ April 14 2012,03:04) Quote (Stu @ April 14 2012,02:28) Happily there is no evidence of either the god or the judgment. Stuart Hi Stuart, The problems in the world is God's judgment for the nations turning away form him. The problem for this god, whatever it is, is that humans have judged the god and are finding that it isn't really there.  It was invented by earlier people. Stuart

Stu.

The theory of evolution is not real; its not there either.
They are still debating amongst them selves.
But you have accepted it as fact.

The existance of Jesus has an abundance of evidence,it is history. You just need to read.
The cross was mentioned 1000yrs before it was invented; and the death of Jesus also 1000yrs before it happened.
Read psalms ch.22.

wakeup.

[Stu]

Quote (Wakeup @ April 19 2012,02:00)

Quote (Stu @ April 19 2012,01:19) Quote (Ed J @ April 14 2012,03:04) Quote (Stu @ April 14 2012,02:28) Happily there is no evidence of either the god or the judgment. Stuart Hi Stuart, The problems in the world is God's judgment for the nations turning away form him. The problem for this god, whatever it is, is that humans have judged the god and are finding that it isn't really there.  It was invented by earlier people. Stuart Stu. The theory of evolution is not real; its not there either.

Maybe its not real to you, but then you do believe in people walking again after they have died, so I'm not sure your opinion counts for a great deal.

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They are still debating amongst them selves.

Not the fact of evolution, only the relative importance for the mechanisms that cause it.

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But you have accepted it as fact.

Evolution is a fact, natural selection is the theory that explains it. You haven't disproved that, no creationist has.

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The existance of Jesus has an abundance of evidence,it is history. You just need to read.

The evidence for the existence of Jesus is circumstantial.

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The cross was mentioned 1000yrs before it was invented; and the death of Jesus also 1000yrs before it happened. Read psalms ch.22.

Ps 22 doesn't use the word “cross” anywhere. Do you mean the part about god forsaking people, and the fact that this phrase is used by the gospel writers?

So your evidence for this myth of Jesus appears to be a phrase copied by early christians keen for their leader to be seen as the prophesied messiah.

You have heard of self-fulfilling prophecy, right?

Stuart

[Wakeup]

Stu.

Psalms22.

1. My God, my God,–( a dying man remembered this scripture and repeated it before his last breath)?
8. He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him.(his enemies that rejected him said this).

16. –they pierced my hands and my feet.(the romans did this,not his own followers).
18. they part my garments among them and cast lots upon my vesture.(the roman soldiers did this,not his own followers).

Zech.11:12. –if ye think good,give me my price; and if not,forbear. So they weighed for my price 30 pieces of silver.(the jews;his enemies did this; not his followers).

Pontius pilate,called Jesus ''the king of the jews''; not knowing that this is a prophesy;that he will be the king of the jews(spiritual jews).

What about this one: Jesus prophesying,2000YRS ago.
THIS GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM SHALL BE PREACHED IN ALL THE WORLD THE FOR A WITNESS UNTO ALL NATIONS,AND THEN SHALL THE END COME.(you can see it for your self,that this has been fulfilled; and the last part will be fulfilled also).

Keep on rejecting him,and you will be paying a high price for it: Your life.

wakeup.

[Stu]

Quote (Wakeup @ April 19 2012,10:15)

Stu. Psalms22. 1. My God, my God,–( a dying man remembered this scripture and repeated it before his last breath)?

No, a gospel writer could have copied it from the Jewish bible because he thought that is what the christian martyr WOULD have said in that mythological circumstance. There is no eyewitness account of the alleged execution of Jesus, in fact there is no example we know of any eyewitness writing anything about Jesus. So in this case you have to play your faith card and claim that there is an Imaginary Omniscient Friend dictating all this. That’s fine, but don’t expect me to be convinced by woo.

But as you know, the Psalms are not written as prophecy, they are written as poetry, which in this case documents the tribulations and internal insecurities of King David. If it was meant to be prophecy it would follow the form of that as is seen in Jeremiah, Isaiah and Hosea. Those books have phrases like “it shall come to pass”. Psalm 22 doesn’t.

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8. He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him.(his enemies that rejected him said this). 16. –they pierced my hands and my feet.(the romans did this,not his own followers). 18. they part my garments among them and cast lots upon my vesture.(the roman soldiers did this,not his own followers).

You mean according to the gospels? The same gospels written by early christians? The kind of early christians who were also willing to rewrite history by attempting to change the writing of Josephus? Not believable, sorry. Jesus was probably a real person, indeed there would have been many Jewish preachers called Jesus in ancient Palestine. But there are so many cases where the history described in the gospels is wrong, for example the census and the so-called slaughter of the innocents, that the best conclusion is that the myth of Jesus you read in scripture is an attempt to make Jesus the messiah. The political situation for those christianised Jews was so hot that you would expect this kind of writing to be commonplace.

The most initially plausible part of this is the piercing of hands and feet but here again we are almost certainly dealing with self-fulfilling prophecy. The term translated as “pierced” has been given so many other different translations that it’s difficult to even know the meaning of that original word. But in the Second Century, for the first time, it was translated in terms of the supposed crucifixion. If this is prophecy, then it is about as valid a prediction as the horoscope is.

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Zech.11:12. –if ye think good,give me my price; and if not,forbear. So they weighed for my price 30 pieces of silver.(the jews;his enemies did this; not his followers). Pontius pilate,called Jesus ''the king of the jews''; not knowing that this is a prophesy;that he will be the king of the jews(spiritual jews).

King David – King Jesus. You would expect it to read like that. It is possible to see metaphor in anything. Are you a believer in art-talk, where paintings are interpreted in terms of all sorts of things that never occurred to the painter?

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What about this one: Jesus prophesying,2000YRS ago. THIS GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM SHALL BE PREACHED IN ALL THE WORLD THE FOR A WITNESS UNTO ALL NATIONS,AND THEN SHALL THE END COME.(you can see it for your self,that this has been fulfilled; and the last part will be fulfilled also).

So now you are telling me about a prophecy that is the subject of a command to all christians, and a second a prophecy that hasn’t been “fulfilled”. Do you expect me to actually believe any of this drivel? What commentary are you making on my basic credulity there? I should feel insulted.

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Keep on rejecting him,and you will be paying a high price for it: Your life.

Is that a threat on behalf of your violent Imaginary Friend? Hilarious.

Stuart

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Ed J @ April 14 2012,05:40)

Quote (Ed J @ April 14 2012,02:39) Quote (Stu @ April 14 2012,02:28) Your scripture mandates tithing Hi Stuart,                    Tithing was for national care of other, not for religious sects.                    “Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions                    every man to his brother: And oppress not the widow, nor                    the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; (Zech 7:9-10) Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the “LORD of Hosts”, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Hi Stuart, Modern Governments call this principal “taxes”. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Correct.

[journey42]

Quote (Stu @ April 19 2012,14:51)

Quote (Wakeup @ April 19 2012,10:15) Stu. Psalms22. 1. My God, my God,–( a dying man remembered this scripture and repeated it before his last breath)? No, a gospel writer could have copied it from the Jewish bible because he thought that is what the christian martyr WOULD have said in that mythological circumstance.  There is no eyewitness account of the alleged execution of Jesus, in fact there is no example we know of any eyewitness writing anything about Jesus.  So in this case you have to play your faith card and claim that there is an Imaginary Omniscient Friend dictating all this.  That’s fine, but don’t expect me to be convinced by woo. But as you know, the Psalms are not written as prophecy, they are written as poetry, which in this case documents the tribulations and internal insecurities of King David.  If it was meant to be prophecy it would follow the form of that as is seen in Jeremiah, Isaiah and Hosea.  Those books have phrases like “it shall come to pass”.  Psalm 22 doesn’t. Quote 8. He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him.(his enemies that rejected him said this). 16. –they pierced my hands and my feet.(the romans did this,not his own followers). 18. they part my garments among them and cast lots upon my vesture.(the roman soldiers did this,not his own followers). You mean according to the gospels?  The same gospels written by early christians?  The kind of early christians who were also willing to rewrite history by attempting to change the writing of Josephus?  Not believable, sorry.  Jesus was probably a real person, indeed there would have been many Jewish preachers called Jesus in ancient Palestine.  But there are so many cases where the history described in the gospels is wrong, for example the census and the so-called slaughter of the innocents,  that the best conclusion is that the myth of Jesus you read in scripture is an attempt to make Jesus the messiah.  The political situation for those christianised Jews was so hot that you would expect this kind of writing to be commonplace.   The most initially plausible part of this is the piercing of hands and feet but here again we are almost certainly dealing with self-fulfilling prophecy.  The term translated as “pierced” has been given so many other different translations that it’s difficult to even know the meaning of that original word.  But in the Second Century, for the first time, it was translated in terms of the supposed crucifixion. If this is prophecy, then it is about as valid a prediction as the horoscope is. Quote Zech.11:12. –if ye think good,give me my price; and if not,forbear. So they weighed for my price 30 pieces of silver.(the jews;his enemies did this; not his followers). Pontius pilate,called Jesus ''the king of the jews''; not knowing that this is a prophesy;that he will be the king of the jews(spiritual jews). King David – King Jesus.  You would expect it to read like that.  It is possible to see metaphor in anything.  Are you a believer in art-talk, where paintings are interpreted in terms of all sorts of things that never occurred to the painter? Quote What about this one: Jesus prophesying,2000YRS ago. THIS GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM SHALL BE PREACHED IN ALL THE WORLD THE FOR A WITNESS UNTO ALL NATIONS,AND THEN SHALL THE END COME.(you can see it for your self,that this has been fulfilled; and the last part will be fulfilled also). So now you are telling me about a prophecy that is the subject of a command to all christians, and a second a prophecy that hasn’t been “fulfilled”.  Do you expect me to actually believe any of this drivel?  What commentary are you making on my basic credulity there?  I should feel insulted. Quote Keep on rejecting him,and you will be paying a high price for it: Your life. Is that a threat on behalf of your violent Imaginary Friend?  Hilarious. Stuart

Stu

There are non believers and there are mockers. The mockers are the nasty ones who love to insult. Does that make you feel good? Does it really show that you are a happy person inside?

What are you doing on this site if you seriously don't believe? You must want someone to prove you wrong else you wouldn't be here, or maybe the other way round. Those who are looking for a sign will not get one. Faith is stronger than your doubt, I seriously don't think you will get one single person on this site to turn around.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Stu @ April 19 2012,11:43)

Evolution is a fact, natural selection is the theory that explains it. You haven't disproved that, no creationist has.

Natural Selection may well be true, but Evolution is not.
Natural Selection was first proposed to support the opposite conclusion to Evolution, i.e., that variation within a species helps it to remain when there are environmental changes. It gives a species much more robustness. So your statement is purposefully misleading because this has been discussed before with you.

It has never been witnessed where new information is added to a species gene pool. Just variation and rearrangement of what is already there.

Your conclusions seem to always point to things coming out of nothing. DNA from nothing, a universe from nothing, a white rabbit from nothing.

Like I said to you a number of times, when a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat, it doesn't actually come from nothing Stu. You believe in extraordinary magic Stu. Why not apply your belief to making $100 bills come from nothing. When you have accomplished that, tell me how you did it and I will concede the debate and be a rich man. W in win for all.

[Stu]

Quote (journey42 @ April 19 2012,17:50)

There are non believers and there are mockers.  The mockers are the nasty ones who love to insult.  Does that make you feel good?

Can you see how I am not out to insult you personally, but am interested in engagement with the ideas that have taken up residence in your brain? I think the ideas you have in your head are the nasty things in this situation. If you see your very identity as being the same thing as the ideas that reside in your head, then I think you are in trouble and you should be discussing this with the people you call the “mockers”. I will ridicule christianity because it is ridiculous. But I am not ridiculing you personally.

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Does it really show that you are a happy person inside?

Not sure what business my happiness is to you, although many god deluded people insist my happiness is incomplete without accepting their claims about their Imaginary Sky Friends, so I am quite familiar with your overfamiliarity. But you might not appreciate what it is that you believe. You seem to believe in a celestial conspiracy theory of a violent deity that demands love in the shadow of fear. That deity killed Uzzah, who was only trying to help, but who supposedly disobeyed the deity and so, regardless of his intent to do good, was smitten summarily. So the deity of your bible is a tyrant. This deity also allegedly gave humans curiosity then punished them for exercising it. So it is a sadist as well. You worship a sadistic tyrant. Does that make you happy?

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What are you doing on this site if you seriously don't believe? You must want someone to prove you wrong else you wouldn't be here, or maybe the other way round.

The proving me wrong thing is certainly be part of it. If someone can demonstrate that I am wrong then I stand to learn new things: I will jettison the ideas I carry in my head when they can be shown to be wrong. That doesn’t happen very often, so posting here can be something of a disappointment. But I have learned about the world of believing in Imaginary Friends, and especially something about the variations between different christian sects, and even some things about islam. I have also enjoyed reading the ideas of those who do manage to really challenge others to think.

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Those who are looking for a sign will not get one. Faith is stronger than your doubt, I seriously don't think you will get one single person on this site to turn around.

While I always hope to convince, it has never been my goal to convert anyone. I resent being prostyletised to, and I don’t have a faith to peddle anyway. I believe that you can get to your own personal truth by looking at that which can actually be shown to be true. Believers tend to look at it the other way round: the “truth” wins no matter what can be shown to be true. To me that means leaving your critical faculty at the door when you come it, and I won’t have that for myself. If it can’t be shown to be true then I don’t think it deserves to reside under the banner of my personal truth.

I think already you might be very wrong about people here changing their minds.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (t8 @ April 19 2012,17:57)

Quote (Stu @ April 19 2012,11:43) Evolution is a fact, natural selection is the theory that explains it. You haven't disproved that, no creationist has. Natural Selection may well be true, but Evolution is not. Natural Selection was first proposed to support the opposite conclusion to Evolution, i.e., that variation within a species helps it to remain when there are environmental changes. It gives a species much more robustness. So your statement is purposefully misleading because this has been discussed before with you. It has never been witnessed where new information is added to a species gene pool. Just variation and rearrangement of what is already there. Your conclusions seem to always point to things coming out of nothing. DNA from nothing, a universe from nothing, a white rabbit from nothing. Like I said to you a number of times, when a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat, it doesn't actually come from nothing Stu. You believe in extraordinary magic Stu. Why not apply your belief to making $100 bills come from nothing. When you have accomplished that, tell me how you did it and I will concede the debate and be a rich man. W in win for all.

The result of natural selection is evolution.

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Natural Selection was first proposed to support the opposite conclusion to Evolution, i.e., that variation within a species helps it to remain when there are environmental changes. It gives a species much more robustness.

And the gene frequency in a population changes as a result of that environmental pressure, which is evolution, not the opposite.

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So your statement is purposefully misleading because this has been discussed before with you.

What statement?

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It has never been witnessed where new information is added to a species gene pool. Just variation and rearrangement of what is already there.

Correct. Some creationists have claimed that their creator god has added new information, but that has never been observed. Natural selection works on variation and rearrangement of what is there, producing the effect we call evolution.

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Your conclusions seem to always point to things coming out of nothing. DNA from nothing, a universe from nothing, a white rabbit from nothing.

No, the evidence points to the appearance of DNA from simpler replicating molecules, protected by a micelle, which is a chemical structure that forms spontaneously in solutions of fatty acids. So from NOT nothing, we get DNA and that eventually leads us to white rabbits, and eventually hats, which are extended phenotypes.

As for the universe, you still haven’t said what you mean by “nothing”, and you still haven’t got over your tedious habit of committing the logical fallacy of false dilemma.

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Like I said to you a number of times, when a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat, it doesn't actually come from nothing Stu. You believe in extraordinary magic Stu. Why not apply your belief to making $100 bills come from nothing. When you have accomplished that, tell me how you did it and I will concede the debate and be a rich man. W in win for all.

While I agree that the means by which the universe and matter came into existence are extraordinary, it is not me that believes in magic. It's not my belief that humans really can walk again after they have been executed by ancient Romans, or that snakes can talk.

Stuart

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