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Hey Ed,
That picture is not from an atheist website. It's from an honest catholic priest. He admits to the flaws in the creation myth rather than burying his head in the sand like you've done.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 18 2012,15:00) Hey Ed, That picture is not from an atheist website. It's from an honest catholic priest. He admits to the flaws in the creation myth rather than burying his head in the sand like you've done.
Hi WIT,Sheol, floodgates, columns of the Earth, abyss, are not
mentioned in the creation account, so how can that be accurate?
Seems you are the one who has buried their proverbial head in the sand.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 18 2012,08:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 18 2012,03:04) I hope that you and Tim listen very carefully here: I personally follow the commands of my God that apply to me, and the teachings of His Son.
I don't go to wars. I don't kill people. I don't steal. I don't cheat on my taxes. I don't covet my neighbors’ possessions. I don't have affairs at all, let alone with someone else's wife. I don't lie. I don't rape. I don't try to cheat people out of what's theirs by dishonest means. I don't laugh at other people's misfortunes.
Most of the things mentioned above are things I used to do. So my faith in God made ME a better person; and in doing so, helped society out.
Now I do clothe the naked and feed the poor. I do help people with no intent of personal gain. I do try control my temper and build people up instead of tearing them down. And I do try to convince other people to live by these guidelines.
I know of a secular humanist who does the same things. Will you now support secular humanism?Quote What you mention in your post (and what Tim mentioned in his) is certain situations that occurred many centuries ago. In God's eyes, the Canaanites were a despicable people, living in a way that displeased Him. God made a nation out of a righteous individual, Abraham, and chose to give what was His to give to that nation. Since many years before last king of Israel, when did God ask anyone to take someone else's land, or go to war with another nation?
Are you asking me or are you asking evangelical Christians who think that God wants the US to conquer the middle east?
Quote And you speak of slavery with the thought of Africans being drug to America and treated cruelly. But God gave rights to the people the Israelites enslaved. Many of these were from the nations being driven out, and welcomed servitude to the Israelites over starving in the wilderness. And many great friendships and extended families developed from those slave/master relationships. There were slaves in the Bible who were left the entire inheritance of their master. They were well fed and treated respectfully. Exodus 21:20-21:
“And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.”This doesn't sound all that respectful to me.
Quote Now, since the last conquests of the nation of Israel, God has not commanded anyone to take anyone else as a slave. He also never commanded them to stop either. In fact, Paul casually mentions slaves as being part of a Christian household.
Colossians 3:18-22:
“Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them. Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged. Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.“Jesus, Paul, nor anybody else ever told believers to set their slaves free.
Quote So, in your list of “terrible things the Bible condones”, tell me which one of those things has God asked anyone to do in the last 2500 years or so? Which of those things did His Son EVER ask anyone to do?
Are you asking me or the Christians who read the bible and used the principles that they found in it to justify what they were doing?
Quote Jesus taught two rules:
1. Love the Lord your God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.2. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Which one of those two rules condones slavery, killing, rape, torture, stealing, cheating, going to war, etc?
And if people (including those who call themselves Christians) would actually adhere to those to commands, this world would be a great place in which to live.
It is truly unfortunate that those who call themselves Christian are a big part of the people who disobey the two rules above. But don't base the behavior of those people on the word of God, because I can't read anywhere in the Bible where I'm supposed to do any of those terrible actions you listed.
Here's the problem. Those two rules come from here:
Deuteronomy 6:5:
You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.Leviticus 19:18:
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.Jesus was simply quoting the law and assigning priorities. This is the same law that condones slavery, advocates executing witches, sets the price for the sale of one's daughter, and commands that all the people from conquered nations either be slaughtered or enslaved. So, those two rules were in no way contrary to such practices. Rather, those rules were always intended to be practiced very selectively.
Good try, but no cigar.
I think you presented a well crafted argument and I believe that Mike is losing his argument with you based upon his inability to embrace the facts.God did tell people to go to war and since God does not change there is no reason to believe that somehow He would not want people to fight for a cause that was for his purposes.
In regards to slavery there are all sorts of slavery what the bible does not condone is abuse to slaves but it does and has condones slavery itself but once again instead of running from that fact perhaps Mike should change his perspective for instance in many if not most cases slavery saved the lives of captured tribes and over time they became integrated into the population sometimes even to the detriment of those who were their masters.
My point is servitude is sometimes beneficial to the descendents of the enslaved whereas the abuse of slaves is always seen in a negative light biblically.
Even in America which just recently ended slavery not more than 160 years ago built up a racial infrastructure which made it possible for it to have its first black president
Hi BD,
YHVH freed the Israelites from Egypt.
The bible does not condone slavery,
if it did you would be a slave today.B'shem
YHVHQuote (Ed J @ Jan. 18 2012,17:28) Hi BD, YHVH freed the Israelites from Egypt.
The bible does not condone slavery,
if it did you would be a slave today.B'shem
YHVH
Hi Ed,Why do you not believe anything that is taught in the bible?
Leviticus 25:44-46 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.
Galations 4:40 But what does the Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son.”
Exodus 21:20-21 When a slaveowner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.
I know, that is the old testament. That does not apply today. Well, let's look at the new testament.
Ephesians 6:5-9 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. Render service with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not to men and women, knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free. And, masters, do the same to them. Stop threatening them, for you know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and with him there is no partiality.
Colossians 3:22-25 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord. Whatever your task, put yourselves into it, as done for the Lord and not for your masters, since you know that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you serve the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will be paid back for whatever wrong has been done, and there is no partiality.
1 Timothy 6:1-5 Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.
That is certainly not condemning slavery.
It is teaching how it should be adhered to.Tim
Hi Tim, it is you who does not believe the bible!
“But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.” (2 Cor 3:15)
“For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” (Hebrews 7:12)
Does this sound like condoning slavery?
“wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD? Is not this the fast that I have chosen?
to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free,
and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor
that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou
hide not thyself from thine own flesh?” (Isaiah 58:5-7)How about this?
“He(YHVH) hath sent me(YA-shu-a) to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of
the prison to them that are bound;” (Isaiah 61:1)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 18 2012,08:04) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 17 2012,09:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2012,04:34) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 16 2012,16:24) How has the bible uniquely been of practical benefit to humanity in terms of helping human progress in this world?
………..were people to actually adhere to the Biblical principles, you would be looking at a very different world today.
There are three problems with what you wrote:1. It's not unique! There are many social movements and other religions who hold and promote such ideals. The bible isn't necessary for those ideals to be promoted. In fact, lots of secular humanist movements would push for the same things.
2. It's not practical. By your own admission, the bible has failed miserably in achieving these aims even among those who believe in it! Historically speaking, Christianity has promoted the exact opposite of these ideals, (e.g. religious wars, torturing non-believers, tolerating slavery, etc.). It's not until the last few centuries, during a time when the influence of the bible has waned, that we have seen progress in these areas.
3. It's not true!. As Tim pointed out, the bible advocates violence, slavery, and the general mistreatment of other human beings throughout it's pages. The idea for the Salem Witch trials wasn't dreamt up by some depraved Puritans. It was taken directly from the bible, (Exodus 22:18). The idea of holy wars wasn't an invention of the Catholic church. It was a constant theme throughout the old testament, with echos of that theme in the new testament. The idea that slavery was an acceptable practice wasn't merely tolerated by the bible. It was a direct command for dealing with conquered foreigners. (See here.) And, as far as modern day Christians are concerned, I am certain that evangelical Christians from the United States are very much pro-war, pro- joining the army, and pro- killing their “enemies”. They are convinced that they are in a holy war with Islam!
I hope that you and Tim listen very carefully here:I personally follow the commands of my God that apply to me, and the teachings of His Son.
I don't go to wars. I don't kill people. I don't steal. I don't cheat on my taxes. I don't covet my neighbors’ possessions. I don't have affairs at all, let alone with someone else's wife. I don't lie. I don't rape. I don't try to cheat people out of what's theirs by dishonest means. I don't laugh at other people's misfortunes.
Most of the things mentioned above are things I used to do. So my faith in God made ME a better person; and in doing so, helped society out.
Now I do clothe the naked and feed the poor. I do help people with no intent of personal gain. I do try control my temper and build people up instead of tearing them down. And I do try to convince other people to live by these guidelines.
What you mention in your post (and what Tim mentioned in his) is certain situations that occurred many centuries ago. In God's eyes, the Canaanites were a despicable people, living in a way that displeased Him. God made a nation out of a righteous individual, Abraham, and chose to give what was His to give to that nation.
Since many years before last king of Israel, when did God ask anyone to take someone else's land, or go to war with another nation?
And you speak of slavery with the thought of Africans being drug to America and treated cruelly. But God gave rights to the people the Israelites enslaved. Many of these were from the nations being driven out, and welcomed servitude to the Israelites over starving in the wilderness. And many great friendships and extended families developed from those slave/master relationships. There were slaves in the Bible who were left the entire inheritance of their master. They were well fed and treated respectfully.
Now, since the last conquests of the nation of Israel, God has not commanded anyone to take anyone else as a slave.
So, in your list of “terrible things the Bible condones”, tell me which one of those things has God asked anyone to do in the last 2500 years or so?
Which of those things did His Son EVER ask anyone to do?
Jesus taught two rules:
1. Love the Lord your God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.2. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Which one of those two rules condones slavery, killing, rape, torture, stealing, cheating, going to war, etc?
And if people (including those who call themselves Christians) would actually adhere to those to commands, this world would be a great place in which to live.
It is truly unfortunate that those who call themselves Christian are a big part of the people who disobey the two rules above. But don't base the behavior of those people on the word of God, because I can't read anywhere in the Bible where I'm supposed to do any of those terrible actions you listed.
HI Mike,Quote I personally follow the commands of my God that apply to me, and the teachings of His Son. Shouldn't all of the commands of God apply to you? Why should you have to pick and choose?
Quote I don't go to wars. I don't kill people. I don't steal. I don't cheat on my taxes. I don't covet my neighbors’ possessions. I don't have affairs at all, let alone with someone else's wife. I don't lie. I don't rape. I don't try to cheat people out of what's theirs by dishonest means. I don't laugh at other people's misfortunes. Those are admirable qualities Mike, even though God did command his people to do most of the things that you do not do. It only seems unfortunate to me that you think that you can only exhibit those qualities because of fear. Either fear of what God will do to you if you don't.
Or fear of the rewards that you may lose in the afterlife.I believe that you were inherently always a good person who made some bad choices at one time. Most of us have. Believe me Mike. I am thrilled that you have been able to turn your life around, whatever it took, but the bible teaches some seriously nasty things and I just do not understand how many people can say that they are good.
Quote
So, in your list of “terrible things the Bible condones”, tell me which one of those things has God asked anyone to do in the last 2500 years or so?I thought that God never changes. Are you saying that he changed his mind about earlier instructions? Unfortunately a whole bunch of Christians have used his instructions to justify atrocities during the entire last 2500 years. God should have known that would happen.
Tim
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 18 2012,23:56) Hi Tim, it is you who does not believe the bible! “But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.” (2 Cor 3:15)
“For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” (Hebrews 7:12)
Does this sound like condoning slavery?
“wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD? Is not this the fast that I have chosen?
to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free,
and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor
that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou
hide not thyself from thine own flesh?” (Isaiah 58:5-7)How about this?
“He(YHVH) hath sent me(YA-shu-a) to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of
the prison to them that are bound;” (Isaiah 61:1)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,How convenient of you to dissregard all of the passages that I quoted condoning slavery and cherry pick a few nebulous passages that were not related to slavery at all.
Is that the best you can come up with to ease your conflicted mind?
Tim
Hi Tim,
My mind is not conflicted, but your presentation is.
You say to Mike that he has admirable qualities,
but say the source of them is seriously nasty?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgBy the way Mike.
You said,Quote But God gave rights to the people the Israelites enslaved. Many of these were from the nations being driven out, and welcomed servitude to the Israelites over starving in the wilderness. These people were not given much of a choice. Their choices were that they could be killed or driven out of their homes and land, Or they could become a slave to the oppressors. It is ludicrous to say that they welcomed servitude?
Quote And many great friendships and extended families developed from those slave/master relationships. If you mean that they eventually assimilated into the culture, I agree that had to eventually happen. Show me scriptures that support your contention that many great friendships and extended families developed from those slave/master relationships.
Quote There were slaves in the Bible who were left the entire inheritance of their master. They were well fed and treated respectfully. There were plenty of references that the slave would become the inheritance of an heir, show me the scriptures supporting your statement.
Leviticus 25:44-46 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever.
Galations 4:40 But what does the Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son.”
Tim
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 19 2012,01:01) Hi Tim, You say to Mike that he has admirable qualities,
but say the source of them is seriously nasty?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
No Ed,I said that I believed that he already had those qualities within himself, but made some bad choices.
Does missinterpreting scriptures for a long time cause a person to eventually missinterpret everything that they read?Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 19 2012,01:57) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 19 2012,01:01) Hi Tim, You say to Mike that he has admirable qualities,
but say the source of them is seriously nasty?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
No Ed,I said that I believed that he already had those qualities within himself, but made some bad choices.
Does missinterpreting scriptures for a long time cause a person to eventually missinterpret everything that they read?Tim
Hi Tim, thanks for confirming…“So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God created he him;” (Gen 1:27)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Jan. 18 2012,10:46) Hi WIT, Sheol, floodgates, columns of the Earth, abyss, are not
mentioned in the creation account, so how can that be accurate?
Seems you are the one who has buried their proverbial head in the sand.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
I stated quite clearly that the picture represents how ancient people viewed cosmology and that the bible reflects this view. The creation account paints the broadest picture with the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament, the water above the firmament, the seas gathered together below the firmament, etc., but you can find references to sheol below the earth, the columns (or pillars) of the earth, the abyss, the floodgates, etc. throughout scripture. If you've read any scripture at all, you would be crazy to deny such things.Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 18 2012,11:37)
I think you presented a well crafted argument and I believe that Mike is losing his argument with you based upon his inability to embrace the facts.God did tell people to go to war and since God does not change there is no reason to believe that somehow He would not want people to fight for a cause that was for his purposes.
In regards to slavery there are all sorts of slavery what the bible does not condone is abuse to slaves but it does and has condones slavery itself but once again instead of running from that fact perhaps Mike should change his perspective for instance in many if not most cases slavery saved the lives of captured tribes and over time they became integrated into the population sometimes even to the detriment of those who were their masters.
My point is servitude is sometimes beneficial to the descendents of the enslaved whereas the abuse of slaves is always seen in a negative light biblically.
Even in America which just recently ended slavery not more than 160 years ago built up a racial infrastructure which made it possible for it to have its first black president
We've been down this road before, Bod. You obviously think that slavery can be justifiable. I don't. From an ethical point of view, there is no way to defend treating another human being like property.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 19 2012,02:43) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 18 2012,10:46) Hi WIT, Sheol, floodgates, columns of the Earth, abyss, are not
mentioned in the creation account, so how can that be accurate?
Seems you are the one who has buried their proverbial head in the sand.God bless
Ed J
I stated quite clearly that the picture represents how ancient people viewed cosmology and that the bible reflects this view. The creation account paints the broadest picture with the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament, the water above the firmament, the seas gathered together below the firmament, etc., but you can find references to sheol below the earth, the columns (or pillars) of the earth, the abyss, the floodgates, etc. throughout scripture. If you've read any scripture at all, you would be crazy to deny such things.
Hi WIT,Remember, I said it wasn't in “the creation account”.
The bible account agrees with what Science now knows.The creation account (in the bible) told us about the Earths:
1. Earths Rotation. (Genesis 1:4)
2. The Earth is round. (Isaiah 40:42)
3. The orbit around the sun. (Job 26:7)
4. And even the Earth's axis tilt. (Gen.1:14)The bible told us about the universe:
5. It had a beginning. (which Science now calls the big bang) (Genesis 1:1)
6. The expansion of the universe. (confirmed by Edwin Hubble) (Isaiah 40:22)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Jan. 18 2012,23:56) Hi Tim, it is you who does not believe the bible! “But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.” (2 Cor 3:15)
“For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” (Hebrews 7:12)
Does this sound like condoning slavery?
“wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD? Is not this the fast that I have chosen?
to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free,
and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor
that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou
hide not thyself from thine own flesh?” (Isaiah 58:5-7)How about this?
“He(YHVH) hath sent me(YA-shu-a) to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of
the prison to them that are bound;” (Isaiah 61:1)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDYou should not try to argue a well made point. The scripture you pointed out has nothing to do with slavery, those verses may have to do with abuse of persons in general but they are not proclaiming “End Slavery” While the Bible clearly states that God never needs any Sacrifice from anyone and you disregard that completely but then you completely delete a common practice and not only a common practice but as Tim pointed out an actual command and direction on how to get and keep slaves. He is right you do not believe in the Bible and if you don't why do you expect to convince others to believe in it.
Imagine a young intelligent person searching for the TRUTH of GOD and because he can read and comprehend clearly what he is reading asks for explanations on subjects he is not comfortable with only to be told “It's not really like that” what a great injustice to that person and to God because now the person has to either face an untruth (That they somehow are suddenly illiterate and without comprehension) or the unexplained truth (it really is like that) but if it's not really like that then ALL of it may not be like that.
You're argument only has validity if you argue the bible does not condone abuse of slaves but for a certainty it condones slavery and the language of condoning it:
Mark 10:44-46
New International Version (NIV)
44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
And even in this fact ED you really believe that Jesus as your slave should be killed to redeem you.
I believe that God set Jesus free
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 19 2012,02:47) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 18 2012,11:37)
I think you presented a well crafted argument and I believe that Mike is losing his argument with you based upon his inability to embrace the facts.God did tell people to go to war and since God does not change there is no reason to believe that somehow He would not want people to fight for a cause that was for his purposes.
In regards to slavery there are all sorts of slavery what the bible does not condone is abuse to slaves but it does and has condones slavery itself but once again instead of running from that fact perhaps Mike should change his perspective for instance in many if not most cases slavery saved the lives of captured tribes and over time they became integrated into the population sometimes even to the detriment of those who were their masters.
My point is servitude is sometimes beneficial to the descendents of the enslaved whereas the abuse of slaves is always seen in a negative light biblically.
Even in America which just recently ended slavery not more than 160 years ago built up a racial infrastructure which made it possible for it to have its first black president
We've been down this road before, Bod. You obviously think that slavery can be justifiable. I don't. From an ethical point of view, there is no way to defend treating another human being like property.
Do parents treat their children as property?Do married people treat each other as property(Limiting their actions physically and financially)
And even today most employers treat their employees as a sort of property at least when they are on the clock
I think what you despise is not Slavery but the abuse of people in general which I agree with but Slavery itself is not Evil because as I said in the case of parenting it is neccessary
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,04:06) Do parents treat their children as property? Do married people treat each other as property(Limiting their actions physically and financially)
And even today most employers treat their employees as a sort of property at least when they are on the clock
I think what you despise is not Slavery but the abuse of people in general which I agree with but Slavery itself is not Evil because as I said in the case of parenting it is neccessary
And members of one's own cult, are they slaves too if necessary?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 19 2012,13:41) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,04:06) Do parents treat their children as property? Do married people treat each other as property(Limiting their actions physically and financially)
And even today most employers treat their employees as a sort of property at least when they are on the clock
I think what you despise is not Slavery but the abuse of people in general which I agree with but Slavery itself is not Evil because as I said in the case of parenting it is neccessary
And members of one's own cult, are they slaves too if necessary?Stuart
stu,bodso what is slavery,and what freedom ??
where is one starts and the other ends ??
Pierre
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 18 2012,23:06) Do parents treat their children as property?
No.Quote Do married people treat each other as property(Limiting their actions physically and financially) No.
Quote And even today most employers treat their employees as a sort of property at least when they are on the clock No, they don't.
If something is your property, you can do whatever you want to it with little or no consequences. That's why the slave owner is basically only given a reprimand for beating his slave to death, according to Exodus 21:20-21. You can not beat your child to death without consequence. You can not beat your wife to death without consequence. Your employer can not beat you to death without consequence.
There is no equivalence.
Quote I think what you despise is not Slavery but the abuse of people in general which I agree with but Slavery itself is not Evil because as I said in the case of parenting it is neccessary No, slavery itself, (i.e. owning another human being), is evil, even if the slave is treated nicely. You may not think so, but those of us who no longer cling to 15th century morality disagree with you strongly.
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