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i read your paper on why there is no such thing as an atheist, and i couldnt disagree more… thus, a debate i put together:
Atheism vs. Agnosticism
The debate:
Recently I came across a subject worthy of debate, between two similar beliefs. These are Atheism and Agnosticism; They are basically pretty much the same thing for the most part, although there is reason for debate based on the differance. The first part of this essay is pro-agnosticism, (An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. -dictionary.com) and anti-atheism. The second part is of course pro-atheism, (One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods. -dictionary.com) and a defense for its existance.-Why does Atheism even exist?
By definition, Atheism is completely illogical. Atheists say that there is no God, as if it’s a fact, when you cannot prove it.
If you do not believe any event on earth proves the existance of God, then why not become agnostic? Agnosticism = Believing there is no proof of a God by events on earth, but not saying there is no God. (my definition) So Agnosticism is at least logical.
If someone with that belief (Atheism) knows what Agnosticism is, why choose to be Atheist, an illogical belief by definition. (denying the existance of a God or Gods, when you cannot prove it.) All Atheism is, is a completely pessimistic, hopeless, and irrational belief. So why cant it be rid of? Why cant Agnosticism be the main belief for those who dont believe in proof of a God? It’s just something I never understood. I believe it’s time to promote Agnosticism, and rid Atheism.-Why there is no God…
Ask yourself this question, "Who made me?" and it cannot be answerd; So here is another question, "Who made God?". It is logical that everything must have a cause. If everything must have a cause then God must have a cause. However, if there can be anything without a cause, it may just as well be the world. There is no reason to assume that the world had a beginning at all; Also there is no reason why the world could not of come into being without a cause. The idea that the world must have a beginning is caused by our lack of imagination.
"God is merely an answer; The case: an uncomprehendable reality of evolution and chance. God is the respect given for the event that created chaos/time/life, as we understand it. God is the act of reacting to the void/thoughts… God is you.
So an Atheist bisbelieves or denies the existance of a God, Gods, or a supreme intelligant being, while an Agnostic believes it is impossable to know anything about God or the creation of the universe – so to answer the Agnostic question "Why cant Atheism be rid of?" and "Why cant Agnosticism be the main belief for those who dont believe in proof of a God?" – it is simple, because Atheism is a belief that supports ones theorys/beliefs on the creation of earth/the universe, and God.
As for Atheism being a "completely pessimistic, hopeless, and irrational belief." … I hate to be the one to break it to them, I have nothing for you after death.
Conclusion:
The issues that this paper was made to tackle, have done just that. I feel i have succesfully defended the Atheist religion, a religion i consider myself a part of.In the There is no such thing as an Atheist writing, I admit that one can have an atheistic belief, but it is based on a belief/religion rather than science or logic. But if we look at the atheist stance (there is not God) we have to admit that they cannot conclusively prove that God doesn't exist and therefore they have to admit if they are honest that God may exist, which is the agnostic stance.
Your argument btw seems to argue the case for agnostism quite well, but not atheism, so I am a little confused about why you conclude that you have defended atheism, when it appears that you are shooting atheism.
:confused:
However, I understand that you have summarised by saying that Atheism is a belief. So I don't think that we really differ too much on this subject.I also read the paper that claims that atheists do not exist and I disagree not only with the claim, but also with the reasoning. It correctly states in the definitions that an atheist does not believe in a god. But I disagree with the definition of agnostics. An agnostic believes that it is literally impossible to know whether or not a god exists. A gnostic, on the other hand, believes that it is possible to determine 100% whether or not a god exists.
The point where the argument strays is where it is assumed that all atheists assert that there is not a god. That is incorrect. Atheism is exactly as it was defined, a lack of belief. I am personally an Agnostic Atheist, which means that while I do not believe in a god, I don’t believe we can know for sure. A person can also be an Agnostic Theist, which means that they believe in a god but don’t believe we can know for sure.
In the above post you admit that someone can have an atheistic belief and that it is based on belief and not science or logic. I don’t agree, but let’s assume for a second that you are right. What’s your point? It doesn’t matter why someone is an atheist. All that matters is that they are in fact an atheist and since you admit that someone can have an atheist belief, you are also admitting that they exist.
The title of the paper is that atheists do not exist, but it only attempts to show why it is illogical to assert that a god does not exist. These are two separate arguments. The only argument against the existence of atheists is a very weak one that asserts that deep down inside, all atheists really believe in a god. But the paper doesn’t even attempt that line of thought.
The reason that atheism is perfectly scientific and logical is the same reason that it is perfectly scientific and logical to not believe in unicorns, Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, vampires, gremlins, invisible giant purple dinosaurs, or any other supernatural being that it is absurd to believe in.
Atheists believe that every claim ever made by any theist for evidence of the supernatural can be explained better by perfectly natural means. Gods have been used throughout history to explain the things that humans don’t understand and as humans know more and more, gods have been used less and less. Anyone that asserts that "God did it" really means that they can’t think of any explanation so it must have been God. Well, that’s just lazy.
The paper attempts to make an analogy with gold being found in China. The problem is that atheists and theists generally don’t disagree on what constitutes proof of the existence of gold. They do, however, disagree on what is proof of a god. A theist says they have had personal experience while an atheist says that the theist is mistaken and that the experience can be explained through perfectly natural psychological means. Therefore, the analogy fails.
Self-delusion, hallucination and outright lying are all explanations. Most theists don’t disagree with these explanations because they easily use the same explanations to prove why other people’s religions are wrong. The only difference is that they assume that it always happens to people in other religions and not theirs because theirs is genuine. Any theist that is honest with himself/herself needs to admit the possibility that he/she could be wrong and that there could be a perfectly natural explanation for all of his/her experiences.
The paper states that “To say there is no God requires absolute knowledge.” The paper fails to recognize that to say that there definitely is a God also requires absolute knowledge. That is why Agnosticism is the only truly rational position for either a theist or an atheist.
The only logical argument for God in the paper is that the universe needs a designer. There it is again. I don’t know where the universe came from, how it could possibly exist without exterior influences, or why order appears in nature, so "God did it." That is a very unscientific argument because it doesn’t even attempt to find a natural explanation.
The paper concludes that the only two types of people are believers and agnostics. This is wrong. There are six kinds of people. There are believers who claim to know, believers who claim to not know, and believers that claim that we can’t know. There are non-believers that claim to know, non-believers that claim to not know, and non-believers that claim we can’t know.
You can label any of these however you want, but the fact remains that some people don’t believe in a god and their reasons are based on scientific knowledge of the world around us and logical arguments meant to point out flaws in religious reasoning. Just because theists don’t agree with atheists doesn’t make atheist arguments any less scientific or logical. The same goes for theists. The only thing that makes an argument not scientific or logical is if it doesn’t follow the methods and findings of science or if it doesn’t follow the rules of logic.
Hello, my name is Xaxyx. And I, too, am an agnostic atheist. These terms are not mutually exclusive.
One source of confusion is that the definitions of these terms are often misrepresented. Allow me to clarify, by describing the meaning of these terms as used by the people who use them to describe themselves (as Garbles did):
Agnostic: a person who believes that knowledge regarding the existence or non-existence of deities cannot be obtained (i.e., "unknowable" ).
Atheist: A person who lacks a belief in deities.
Firstly, I should point out the very different nature of these two terms. Agnosticism is a belief, a stance; it is an assertion about the nature of reality in general, and of deities in particular. Its opposite is gnosticism: the belief that knowledge of deities *can* be obtained by man.
Atheism, on the other hand, is not a belief, not a stance. It is the lack of these things; it is, simply and straightforwardly, the lack of a belief in one or more gods. Empty a bottle of milk, and you do not have an anti-milk bottle; you instead merely have an empty bottle, a bottle that simply doesn’t happen to have milk in it.
I am an atheist. Many people are atheists. Some don’t even know it. This is because being an atheist does not require a choice. On the contrary: to be a *theist*, a person who does possess a belief in one or more gods, is what requires a conscious, aware, voluntary choice. Until such time that a person has made such a choice to believe in a god, that person is an atheist. There’s nothing special about it, really; it’s just a word to describe somebody without a god belief. It’s even how the word is built: a-theist, without a god. All human beings are born atheists; it is only through life experiences and personal choices that we may become theists.
Now, given these definitions, it should seem clear why asserting that there’s no such thing as an atheist is untrue. Speaking of myself, I cannot help but be an atheist; I have never elected to obtain a belief in any gods, nor do I happen to possess such motivation at the moment.
And there are many others like me, people who simply have not yet chosen to adopt a god-belief. They may do so in the future; heck, intellectual honesty compels me to assert that I may do so. But here and now, I have not; thus, here and now, I am an atheist.
Now, there are, of course, atheists in the world who possess the belief that there are no gods at all. This is a claim, an assertion; it is a stance, in and upon itself. As it is a stance, its logical consistency can be evaluated, just as the stance of a theist can be similarly assessed.
But these are two different brands of atheists. To clarify: atheists who simply lack a god belief are known as weak atheists. Atheists who maintain an active belief that no gods exist at all are known as strong atheists.
I am an agnostic weak atheist.
– Xaxyx
AGNOSTIC
- One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
- One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
- One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something
WORD HISTORY
An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a, meaning without, not, as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnosis, knowledge, which was used by early Christian writers to mean higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things; hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as Gnostics a group of his fellow intellectualsists, as he called them who had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a man without a rag of a label to cover himself with, Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.==================================
I really do not see how this changes my argument. If you deny or disbelieve the existance of God, then I still think that you either need absolute knowledge in order to prove it or at least to really believe it. So it's nothing more than an irrational belief and always will be.
But if you were honest and rational, you would have to admit to the possibility that God could exist outside of your experience or interpretation or you would have to at least doubt your belief and if you did that you would be agnostic.
Lets look at it another way.
- I believe that there is life on other planets.
- I believe that there is no life on other planets.
- I am not sure what to believe with regards to life on other planets.
They are all beliefs right. But the person who doesn't believe that life exists on other planets has to admit that this assumption is based on how they feel. If such a person were rational, he/she would realise that they would have to scan every atom of every planetary body in every Solar System, within every galaxy to really prove their belief and given the enormity of the situation, any honest or rational person would have to admit that they may be wrong. If a person admitted that, then they would no longer be a person who believes that there is no life or a person who abstains from thinking of such things or a person who doesn't have an opinion. Rather they would be acknowledging the possibility of life on other planets even if they think it is extremely unlikely. It's just pure logic and rationale.
Perhaps I can conclude that Atheism is illogical and irrational. Hey that reminds me of a scripture:
Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” ……….
[ 14:1 The Hebrew words rendered [ fool ] in Psalms denote one who is morally deficient or senseless. ]
==================================
RELIGION
- Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
- A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
- A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
I would like to thank you all for your input on this subject. I can only say this in respect and not in agreement with this topic . I now understand more about agnostic and atheist. I didn’t know that these were considered ‘ religions ‘ .
It seems to me that the author of the bible exists outside of our space-time reality. Thus, the bible itself has proven, time after time, to be of more reliable substance than our very own known reality!
Historical, physical, supernatural, you name it!
Those that have gathered, and given us, the knowledge of our reality (scientists), have at many times proven to be less than accurate.
The bible is not only the most accurate writing in existence, it also contains hidden truths that science has struggled to keep up with!
Those in the area of quantam phiysics would be the first to admitt this, for they are intimate with the very building blocks of creation itself. The intricate workings of creation are theirs to discover!
A much respected atheistic scientest in this feild said something along these lines: The more I discover, the more I come up with the same conclusion; only God could have created this!
Beliefs come about by ones environment along with evidence. With so much evidence pointing to the existence of God, one must make a choice; trust in my own uncontrolable existence, or trust in the evidence placed before me…God has everthing in control!
But hey! That’s just my own opinion.:)
Hey BTW t8,
I noticed I have advanced member under my tag, am I special or something?
How did I get that title?The more Posts you make the higher the rank given to you. I think ‘Advanced Member’ is 15 or 20 posts.
Hello
I just read your article "There is no such thing as an Atheist" I believe your article is extremely flawed. You use the example that in order to say there is no gold in China you must have absolute knowlege of China thus an Athiest must have absolute knowlege of God in order to say God does not exist. Here is where you are wrong,
If you say you know for a "FACT" that there is no gold in China then you must have absolute knowlege of China because a fact implies you have proof! but to say "I don’t believe there is any gold in China", that is an opinion and whether that opinion is right or wrong, an opinion does not require proof, or any kind of knowlege of China. An Atheist does’nt need any kind of proof or knowlege of God in order to disbelieve in the existance of God because that is just his opinion. Let’s take your argument to the next step. if what you said was true, than you must believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy and every other fairytail unless you checked every inch of the North Pole for Santa, checked every rabbit hole for the Easter Bunny, and under every pillow for the tooth fairy. now does’nt that sound ridicules?Ken
Perhaps you didn’t read the whole article. I quote the following from that article:
<font color=navy>I can respect that you may have chosen not believe in God without proof and in that sense you have chosen to be an Atheist, but your claim to be an atheist is not a scientific one, rather a belief or religion.</font>
You made the same point to try and educate me, yet I had already said it. So like the person who says there is no gold in China based on little knowledge of China, you judged my writing based on reading or understanding only part of it.
In other words your belief about what I wrote was based on the fact that you didn’t comprehend or understand everything that I wrote. You say I was saying something and in defence of what I wrote, you actually wrote what I wrote. Your reply only demonstrated what I said in the writing because I admitted that it was a belief and nothing more and then I said that lack of knowledge must lead any clear thinking person to believe that they could be wrong and if so, then you would be Agnostic by definition.
I wonder if you can now see the possibility that God could exist because you do not have absolute knowledge that he doesn’t exist.
If you can see this, then you would have to be an Agnostic. If you cannot see what I am saying then you are ignorant of what I am saying and your belief that God doesn’t exist can exist comfortably with this lack of knowledge.
In the end everything boils down to belief. One man can believe that the sun doesn’t rise and some minds may condemn such a belief, but if you think about it. The sun doesn’t actually rise according to our understanding of the Solar System.
The fact still remains, the analogy of "No gold in China" is flawed, and because you say some people have chosen not to believe in God, that still makes them an atheist! that makes the title of your article flawed. As for myself, I did not choose not to believe in a God anymore than choosing not to believe in Santa, or the Easter Bunny. I simply have not seen any proof of God, so I lack belief which makes me an Atheist. If I were presented with proof of God, Santa, or the Easter Bunny, I would then believe in those things. but it will never happen because they don’t exist. As far as Atheism being a belief or religon, atheism is a lack of belief, a lack of religon, it is the oppisite of those things. that is like saying "if you choose not to play Football, Basketball, or Baseball, that lack of activity is a sport". if you don’t believe that broken mirrors, black cats, or cracks on the sidewalk bring bad luck, that lack of belief is a superstition! see how crazy that sounds? Atheism is NOT an assertion of belief, Theism is. Agnosticism is an assertion of belief as well, they believe that god MAY exist! I don’t agree with that anymore than I believe Santa may exist. I now have a question for you t8 Can you prove your God DOES exist? and if not does that make YOU the agnostic?
Peace
Ken
Belief in no God is still a belief and religion is a personal or institutionalized system grounded in a belief . It is a belief system that says God doesn't exist. To believe in nothing is to believe in something. That something is nothing. The lack of something is still something that requires belief.
It's like saying that you do not believe that I exist vs believing that I do exist. Either way it is a belief. But if you met me in person, then it is no longer a belief.
The thrust of my argument was this. That belief that God doesn't exist is not based on logic or proof, it is simply that a belief and if one were honest about their belief, they would have to admit that they couldn't be sure that God didn't exist given the little amount of knowledge they possess and if they admitted that, then they would be Agnostic if they were honest about it.
I don't see a problem with what I have said. If you believe that God doesn't exist even against the fact that you know nothing in comparison to all the knowledge out there, then yes you are an Atheist (ignorant).
That is why it says in Psalm 53:1
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” …I am if anything making this point. You may use the word 'Atheist', but scripture uses the word 'Fool'. So I still say that there is no such thing as an Atheist, but I acknowledge that there are many fools.
I do like your come back which said the following:
Can you prove your God DOES exist? and if not does that make YOU the agnostic?
My answer is this: The universe around you is proof that God exists. It would be utter foolishness to believe that all the galaxies, stars, planets, atoms etc were not brought into existence by design and hence a designer. His work is self evident. Just as it would be foolish to believe that cyberspace come into existence without intelligence, it is even more foolish to believe that real space had no designer. That is why it says in Hebrews 3:4
For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.
Tell me this. If humans make cameras, then how did nothing do a better job with the same technology? i.e. Human eye.
Even Galileo said that God made the universe through mathematics and we can see God's laws and logic in the language of math. In the same way, an artificial mind (AI) in cyberspace could examine the source code of his and his environments existence and see that there are programs and laws. He would only then need to think “Who wrote the code”.
Just because his creator exists outside his dimension doesn't mean that he doesn't exist. If the artificial mind concluded that he was not made/created by a creator because he cannot see him, then he would be wrong.
If you saw a house, you would believe that it had a builder would you not?
So besides the pure logic and obviousness of God's existence, I offer you an even greater proof. I know God, he speaks to me and I speak to him. He even showed me Heaven and #### and I wrote about that at the following location.
https://heavennet.net/testimonies/testimony01.htm
So God's existence is not just a belief for me, but through my faith I was given personal proof besides obviousness and logic.
If you want proof that God exists, you need to seek him first. If you do not want the proof because you do not believe in him and you are not interested in truth, then you deserve not to know and hence an atheist you will stay.
I am not being harsh, just telling it as it is. Whatever you decide to believe, God loves you beyond anything you can comprehend and one day you will find this out. I hope that you realise it while you exist here on earth, so that you can live a life worthy of a person made in his image.
Hello t8
I think you’ve got your facts mixed up. You say "belief in no God is still a belief and religion" I would suggest you pick up a dictionary and look up religion. in case you don’t have one, Webesters 3rd edition says "The personal commitment to and serving of God or a god with worship devotion" in other words, if you don’t have a commitment to a God or higher power, it is not a religion. Atheism is not a religion, it is not a "personal or institutionalized system grounded in a belief" as you say, it is just an opinion. even though I will admit some people may take their atheistic opinions to the point of a belief, I believe you make the mistake that a lot of christians make when judging atheists. you assume that we all think alike. the only thing atheist have in common is that we don’t believe in god. think of it this way, if you were to do a survey of men who don’t wear boots, you may interview one man who does’nt wear boots because they are uncomfortable so he only wears sandals. so you mistakingly assume all men who don’t wear boots, only wear sandals because boots hurt their feet! then the next guy you interview does’nt wear boots or sandals because the thinks they are ugly! he only wears loafers and tennis shoes. then the next guy does’nt wear boots because they are too heavy but he wears sandals, loafers, and tennis shoes. the only thing these men have in common is they don’t wear boots, that’s it! they are not a part of a group, they don’t have the same reasons for not wearing boots, they don’t share the same politics, ideas, or opinions, they just don’t wear boots. You may have met an atheist who’s opinions are’nt based on logic, you may have met an atheist who believe scientist have all the answers, who think men come from apes or that the universe has no design to it. but you can’t assume that about all atheists. when it comes to logic you must realize that what is logical to me may not be logical to you, I may think it is illogical to believe that a just god would create a #### knowing that he is going to send 95% of the people he created to it to be tourtured and burned forever. I may think it is illogical for this god to make man than refuse to communicate with each one of them in a way that they can understand, and then punish them for not getting the message. I may think it is illogical to believe a god would design man with the desire to do wrong and then punish him for doing what he was designed to do. these points may sound illogical to you but to me they sound like a perfect logical reason to disbelieve that your god exists. You say that the Universe is proof that God exists? cmon! there can be a million explanations of how the universe turned out this way. and as far as a design, I never said that the stars, galaxies and planets have no design. I don’t know enough about astronmy to make that kind of judgment either way (I wonder what would a universe without design look like) I am just saying your God is not responsible. Lets say if I got a seed, planted it, watered it, and let it grow into a tree. that tree will have a design to it. and it is fair to say that I am responsible for the existance of that tree. Does that make me God? should that tree bow down and worship me? of course not! I just planted a seed, and it evoloved into a tree. maybe some alien from a distance planet justed planted a seed and watched it grow! who knows! all I am just trying to say is there can be lots of explanations of how we got here, and just because I don’t know all the answers, does’nt mean I am obligated to accept yours without proof. besides, if everything must have a designer and creater, than God must have a designer and creater. if God does’nt need a designer or creater than neither does the universe.
You also mentioned that God speaks to you and he showed you heaven and ####, Humm….. All I can say is that there are people in the mental institution who swear up and down that they are Jesus Christ, napolian and have seen all kinds of things. Now I am not saying you are crazy, but you gotta admit, it kinda sounds that way! besides I never met a mad man who knew he was mad! they all think they are genisious
I’ve always wondered why when some christians discover that you are an atheist it is some kind of a shock to them. They seem to have a How Dare You attitude, almost as if it were a personal attack against them. they are all too quick to dismiss all the other religions out there as false, they will discredit the Mormon, or Muslim who swears up and down that they experience their Gods, but when somebody discredits theirs they are shocked! When you can understand how you can so easily dismiss the existance of all the other Gods out there, maybe then you can understand how I can dismiss the existance of yoursPeace
Ken
Try the following link. It is the definition of religion from dictionary.com.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion
You believe that God doesn't exist, you believe that the universe came about without a designer/God. Therefore the creation itself is your God. It made itself.
Not all gods can talk and think. Even a piece of wood/idol can be a god, a false god. Anything that takes the place of God is a false god. Even the creation itself or money can be a god. Many people serve money for example.
You say that not all atheists are the same and part of an institution. The same could be said about those who believe in God.
Your point about what is logical to one is not to another is true. But if we take 1+1=2, then yes most would say that it is logical and maybe some would say it is not. This is called truth and lies. Not all are in the truth, some people are deceived.
Your point about it being illogical that God would create a hell knowing that he is going to send 95% of the people he created to it to be tortured and burned forever. Well it actually doesn't say that hell is forever and there is no figure given of who will meet this end.
Revelation 20
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.I think it is logical for God to cast away and then destroy those that do not want him. In fact what would be the point of God forcing those who do not choose him, to live with him forever. It would be logical that if a person chose to reject God who is life and love, for them to not receive those things. If God is eternal and you reject God, then why should he force an eternal life (of suffering or joy) on anyone.
You then say “that it may be illogical for God to make man then refuse to communicate with him and then punish them for not getting the message”.
Well God does communicate with those who want to communicate with him. It may be logical for God not to communicate with someone who doesn't want to communicate with him. God talks to his children.
You then might think “that it is illogical to believe in a God who would design man with the desire to do wrong and then punish him for doing what he was designed to do”.
But God gives us the desire to do good. It is the Devil's works that gave us evil and sin. God gave us a conscience (con=with science=knowlege – of his law, right and wrong) he gave us the law itself and he gives his Spirit without measure. His Spirit leads us into all righteousness. Yes we have a fallen sinful human nature. But we also have the promptings of God's Spirit. So we can be lead by the Spirit or fulfil the desires of the flesh. So we have a choice, a fair choice. It is not all one way. What you choose is what you get. Sounds logical and fair to me. No one is forcing you to not choose either way. That is about as fair as you can get. If you choose God, then you truly choose him because you could have not chosen him. We are not robots, we have free will. Do you want to live with God or not. If not, then you cannot make it to Heaven because you didn't choose it.
You then say “there can be a million explanations of how the universe turned out this way. And as far as a design, I never said that the stars, galaxies and planets have no design. I don't know enough about astronomy to make that kind of judgment either way”.
Well there could be a million ways to explain how cyberspace came to be, from the perspective of an artificial mind that exists within that realm. But to deny a programmer/God/designer would be utter foolishness would it not?
The universe that we exist in is governed by laws and where do you think the laws came from. These laws are not tangible, they are not physical. They are beyond and before our reality. Where do laws come from? They don't appear out of thin air. They are given by a law maker/programmer.
Lets look at it this way. 2 people's perception of a cake. A non-God believer and a God believer. The non-God believer says that the cake is made up of flour, milk, baking powder, sugar and eggs. All the ingredients were then mixed together by a force and then heated at 450 degrees for 20 minutes. The God believer may say the same thing, but he also asks “Who baked the cake?” So who is the enlightened one?
Sometimes science is not adequate in determining certain things. E.g love doesn't get better because of science. Science certainly is very useful, but it is constantly proving itself wrong and theories are always changing when new knowledge comes to light. But truth remains the same because it is the answer.
You then say ” I've always wondered why when some christians discover that you are an atheist it is some kind of a shock to them.”
Well I am not shocked. In fact I know that this world is full of fools. Look at all the problems, they do not come from balanced loving and just people. This is a sick world. As the scripture says the world is the enemy of God and if we love this world, then we cannot love God.
Kenny, the truth is better than anything man can dish up. God is awesome and he is love.
I am not trying to sell you religion a denomination or a scheme where you can put your money into. I am giving you what God has shown me. I have no other motive for doing this, other than the greatest thing of all, that is love.
If seek the truth, then the truth is what you will find. If you do not, then you will not find it. Life is a mystery and life is the greatest gift that you have.
Hello t8
I looked up the word religion in dictionary.com as you suggested and it did little to prove your point. as a matter of fact it proved MY point it said
Religion
1. a) Belief in and revernce for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creater and governer of the universe
b) A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such a belief and worship
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order
3. A set of beliefs, values and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader
4. A cause, principle or activiity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotionI don’t know why you suggested I look up religion in dictionary.com because it still proves my point! that Atheism is NOT a religion. Atheism is not a belief in a supernatural power, it is not a system grounded in belief and worship, it has nothing to do with a spiritual leader, & it is not something pursued with zeal and concientious devotion.
On the last message I posted, I made 3 points,
1. That Atheism is not a religion, which was proven by looking up religion in the dictionary,
2. That my reasons for not believing in God is based in logic, even though you may not agree with my logic (we can debate that one till the cows come home)
3. That there can be a million explanations for how the world turned out the way it is. My points still stand, and with you being a christian and all, I would’nt expect you to agree with them. You have your agenda (to save the world) and I can respect that. I guess one of the good things about living in America is that we can agree to disagreePeace
Ken
A cause, principle or activiity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion is one of those meanings:
1) Your Atheism is a cause that you are consciously devoted too.
2) The word God can be used to define anything that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: e.g “Money was their god.”
3) The scriptural word for Atheist is fool. E.g. “The fool has said in his heart that there is no God”Of course we are free to believe whatever we want, that is the freedom of having our own will. We are even free to make mistakes and believe in lies. Free will ultimately makes us responsible for all our actions.
But some have the mistaken notion that faith and religion are linked inseparably with the confession of a supreme being, but many exercise faith in self and other human beings, to the exclusion of the divine. This, too, is religion. Whatever serves as one's basic system of beliefs about his or her place and role in the universe is certainly a faith, a religion.
So from one meaning of religion you serve that ideal, which is a way in which you believe to be true. Also with the scriptural meaning and usage of the word God/god/theos/eloyhim, I can argue that you do have a God. Your God is what you give the most attention and what you serve the most. Of course the One True God would wish that it was him, but that is not necessary the case of course. And the word atheist and fool are interchangeable. Depends on what you read.
So I think that I could argue on any 3 of these points that there is no such thing as an atheist, and in addition to those 3 points I also say that if an atheist were honest, he/she would have to admit to the possibility that God could exist and this would then disqualify him as being atheist.
And even if you remain an atheist at the expense of logic i.e. that there is an infinite amount of knowledge compared to what you know, then scripture calls you a fool, not an atheist.
This is why it says in scripture:
Psalm 53:1
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good.Notice the last part which is not often quoted. An atheist/fool is given these qualities for a reason.
Perhaps those reasons are as follows:
1) They cannot be honest for a start, as they know that they do not possess absolute knowledge. Therefore they tend toward dishonesty and ignorance in their belief and such a thing could spread to other areas of their life.
2) Atheism cuts off the possibility of finding the meaning and reason one was created in the first place. This sad state can be passed onto one's offspring and cuts them off from knowing where love and all goodness comes from.
3) No belief in God opens the way to think that sin and anything else bad, will not be held as accountable (as there is no God) and therefore it matters less when evil is done. E.g. Adolph Hitler was a staunch Evolutionist (a type of atheist or one religion held by many atheists) and his works of evil bear out his belief. He believed in a supreme race and that the so-called lesser races would be destroyed in the same way the supposed Ape-Men were overtaken. He even made comparisions with apes and Jews. This evil was probogated by his belief and this evil was not kept to himself, but it effected millions of lives. If one believes in a just and loving God, then such a person would be less likely to do such acts of evil, knowing that judgement awaits them and they cannot ultimately get away with it. Even Joseph Stalin, though an atheist, was a believer. His was a faith resulting in tremendous brutality, nevertheless, a faith! What was this faith? Read the following quote to find out.
At a very early age, while still a pupil in the ecclesiastical school, Comrade Stalin developed a critical mind and revolutionary sentiments. He began to read Darwin and became an atheist.
G. Glurdjidze, a boyhood friend of Stalin's, relates:
“I began to speak of God, Joseph heard me out, and after a moment's silence, said:
“'You know, they are fooling us, there is no God. . . .'
“I was astonished at these words, I had never heard anything like it before.
“'How can you say such things, Soso?' I exclaimed.
“'I'll lend you a book to read; it will show you that the world and all living things are quite different from what you imagine, and all this talk about God is sheer nonsense,' Joseph said.
“'What book is that?' I enquired.
“'Darwin. You must read it,' Joseph impressed on me”Perhaps this is the reason that the first question for one to join the Party was “Do you believe on God?”
If one answered yes, he couldn't join the Party.
Atheism is a way, a belief a faith and therefore a religion.
In 1983, Alexander I. Solzhenitsyn, winner of the 1970 Nobel Prize for Literature, gave an address in London in which he attempted to explain why so much evil had befallen his people:
Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: “Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.”
Since then I have spend well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: “Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.”
Hello t8
You started your responce by making 3 points
1. That my Atheism is a cause that I am consciously devoted to,
2. That the word God can be used to define anything that is worshipped idealized or followed
3. The Scripture word for atheist is foolIn my last response, I made it very clear when I said " it is NOT something I pursue with consciously devotion", My opinions on religion are not something I am devoted to, as I mentioned in a previous response, if I saw proof of the existance of God I would believe. But extrordaniary claims require extordinary evidence, and there is no evidence of the existance of God. I am not so closed minded that I would not accept proof if it were presented to me.
Your second point "The word God can be used to define anything that is worshipped idealized or followed" let me make this clear to you since you obviously have not been listening all this time, I WORSHIP NOTHING!!! I don’t idealize or follow anything either. can I make it any clearer than that? in your 3rd point "The scripture word for atheist is fool" It is obivious that your inability to reinforce your argument with FACTS angers you and you respond with insults. that is a shame becuse I thought you were better than that. The rest of what you say is under the assumption that the first 3 points are accurate. they are not, so everything else is flawed. There was one point that you made "even if I remain and atheist at the expense of logic ie that there is an infinite amount of knowledge compared to what I do know" You need to realize, it is not that which I don’t understand about the bible that bothers me, it is that which i DO understand! that is where I see flaws, that is why I disbelieve. On the second set of points, on the 3rd point you inplied that Adolph Hitler was an Atheist! it is well known that Hitler was a Catholic (a type of Christanity) in his book Mein Kampf Hitler said "Therefore I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creater. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the lords work" My guess is either you lack knowlege of Hitler, or you are trying to decieve those who read these responses. If you lack knowlege, may I suggest you get your facts straight before putting them on this web site, if you are trying to decieve…. well I just hope that is not the case.
If you are implying that the reason some Atheist have done evil in the past is because that is what Atheist do, that is one can of worms you don’t wanna open because we all know some of the atrocities christians have done in the past, as I mentioned, Hitler was a christian, in order to be in the origional Ku Klux Klan, you had to profess Christanity as part of the oath, Christanity was used to justify slavery in the USA. they said that by enslaving the people of Africa they can introduce them to christanity thus saving their souls.
A wise man once said, "Good men will always do good, and bad men will always do bad, inspite of religion. the religious man will just use his religion to justify his behavior weather it be good or bad" I believe there is a lot of truth to that! Hitler used his religion to justify genoside, the slave owners used religion to justify enslaving the people of Africa, and even YOU t8 make the point! when you chose to resort to that adolescent behavior of name calling, you used the bible to justify calling me a fool. you consistantly insult me then you just shrug your shoulders and say "well that is what the bible says" Actually a more accurate statement would be "Only a fool says in his heart, There is no God, the wise man says it to the world"!!!Peace
Ken
Kenny I am not resorting to name calling, my passionate pursuit in life is truth and I believe that those who do not believe in God are fools because that is what scripture says and I agree with it.
I am not calling you a fool, I am saying that if you do not believe in God then you are a fool and you are saying to me that you do not believe in God. Therefore it is you who is saying that you are foolish. I will not change truth because of you or anyone.
I was an Atheist (fool) myself for probably 15 years. I spent the first part of my life (as a child) pursuing truth and God with no encouragement whatsoever as my dad is an Atheist even to this day. After a time and not having anyone to share my ideas with, I was lead astray and deceived by the education system to believe that my forefathers were monkeys and that life was not created by a God, rather it just sort of happened by chance and physical processes with no oversight. So I believed that life had little meaning and no eternal meaning. During this time of my life I was a fool in the scriptural sense.
Later, for a small reason I decided to give the idea of God a go and that small amount of faith lead to my relationship with God that I currently enjoy.
You see Kenny if scripture calls a person a fool, then I have no problem with that. I admit that I have been foolish myself, so I am not trying to say that I am better than anyone else. I am just being honest. It is simply foolish to believe that this universe came about by no designer. It is just plain illogical and stupidity. It’s like the fish who said there is no water. It’s just so obvious that he thinks it is nothing.
You mention that you do not consciously devote your time to your belief that God doesn’t exist. So what is the difference between a person who believes in God and lives and serves him and a person that doesn’t believe in God and serves and lives primarily for himself. It’s the same thing with different priorities. They are both beliefs that effect the way we live our lives.
Kenny if your belief that God doesn’t exist is not a conscious devotion, then how do you consciously know that you are an Atheist and why are you arguing for Atheism and defending your position? Doesn’t look to me like you are unconscious with regards to your belief.
You then say that you do not worship anything. That is not true. Worship is simply the thing that you serve or give the most attention to. It could be money, yourself, sex, drugs, music, God or whatever. It is obvious that there will be something in your life that you serve and love the most.
You then tell me that Adolph Hitler was a Christian, well how wrong you are. He may have said he was a Christian (not sure) but he believed in Evolution not the teachings of Jesus Christ. For if he were a true follower of Christ and a child of God, then he would have lived by the following precepts:
Matthew 5:39
But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.All those people who claim to be Christians and practice murder, hate, lies, drunkedness, adultery etc are not only deceiving themselves, but are giving God and his ways a bad name and it is foolish people who hate God because evil people do things in his name and not his will. This is a simple but effective tactic of the Devil.
Most of the sins that you point out that were done in the name of Christianity are not of God. There are many who claim to be Christians and they are involved in sexual sin for example (homosexual acts with children etc). It basically boils down to identifying what it really means to be a child of God. Those people who murder in the name of God are not of God. It is simple. God and the scriptures condemn their works just as he condemns those who have no faith in him.
I don’t mince my words Kenny, I believe in truth to the point that I do not care if I offend you. In fact many people have been crucified for the truth and even though you do not have this power to do this to me, you can hate me or whatever, but I esteem truth higher than myself and therefore I will not compromise truth in order to avoid conflict.
To me it is simple, you have a religion that believes that God doesn’t exist. This belief is very conscious and manifests in many areas of your life. It defines you as a person and it effects the way you live and many decisions you have made and will make in life are affected by this belief.
I believe that your religion denies pure logic and obviousness, but I admit that you have the right to your belief even if you want to ignore the fact that there is so much you do not know and even within what you do know, there is plenty of evidence, but you choose not to see it.
Now I know that you are mad at me, but I am being honest when I say that I am not mad at you. I am just defending the truth and I consider truth to be greater than myself. I am not threatened by your words in the slightest and therefore you have not offended me.
There are many things done in the name of God for whatever reason, but there are truly few works done in his will. If men give God a bad name, then why should we judge God for that, or not believe in God because of the falliable works of man done in God’s name.
I leave you with the following scripture:
John 16:2
They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.So here we have people who believe in God and yet, they will kill the true followers of God, thinking that they are actually serving God. This backs up what I said about those who kill in the name of God. They are not doing God’s will and they will be judged for their actions alongside the Godless. In fact they themselves may believe in God, but there works show that they are sinners and do not know him.
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