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Hi,
I believe the Church was forced to choose between two men and their doctrines, both of which were flawed. They chose to follow this man, who history does not treat kindly as far as his fruit goes.
This is his creed[thanks to SS]The Athanasian Creed follows, taken from Schaff's work:
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith.
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. But this is the catholic faith: That we worship one God in trinity, and trinity in unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons; nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father: another of the Son: another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one: the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father is uncreated: the Son is uncreated: the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
9. The Father is immeasurable: the Son is immeasurable: the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.
10. The Father is eternal: the Son eternal: the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet there are not three eternals; but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated: nor three immeasurable: but one uncreated, and one immeasurable.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty: the Son almighty: and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet there are not three almighties: but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God: the Son is God: and the Holy Spirit is God.
16. And yet there are not three Gods; but one God.
17. So the Father is Lord: the Son Lord: and the Holy Spirit Lord.
18. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord:
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there are three Gods, or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none; neither created; nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone: not made; nor created; but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son: not made; neither created; nor begotten; but proceeding.
24. Thus there is one father, not three Fathers: one Son, not three Sons: one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is before or after another: none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together, and co-equal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped.
28. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation, that we believe also rightly in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. Now the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
31. God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds: and Man, of the substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God: perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead: inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood.
34. And although He be God and Man; yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance; but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ.
38. Who suffered for our salvation: descended into Hades: rose again the third day from the dead.
39. He ascended into heaven. He sits on the right hand of God, the Father almighty:
40. From whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men must rise again with their bodies;
42. And shall give account for their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; but they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.Hi,
So according to the creed of Athanasius:25. And in this Trinity none is before or after another: none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together, and co-equal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped.
28. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation, that we believe also rightly in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. Now the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
31. God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds: and Man, of the substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God: perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead: inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood.
34. And although He be God and Man; yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance; but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ.the trinity is to be worshiped, not individual deities.
Christ was begotten before time as an equal person.
Man became God?Hi W,
You said in response to this quote in another thread.
“Quote
Neither does the Athanasian creed you follow.The point was it summed up his interpretation nicely. “
Your words
” If I was following any creed, I would rather follow his than Arius and his man made lies”
Follow Jesus
Jesus said by their fruit we will know false teachers. It seems we can be fooled by the pius and religious words of men but thorn bushes cannot produce figs. You say you would rather follow the teachings of Athanasius. I do not know why you would want to follow any man but his fruit deserves some special study.
Hi Nick,
God our Father sends a big part of himself down as flesh in Jesus Christ.
God sends a piece of His spirit down to us when we seek and trust in Him. That's the Holy Spirit. It seems to me God sent Jesus to connect us to Him, Jesus being the Mediator between us and God. He sends a part of Himself in spirit to us when we seek Him to help educate and Guide Us, the Holy Spirit, right. 3 in1 right. Serving three different purposes but all part of 1 our Heavenly Father.
larryQuote Hi W,
You said in response to this quote in another thread.
“Quote
Neither does the Athanasian creed you follow.The point was it summed up his interpretation nicely. “
Your words
” If I was following any creed, I would rather follow his than Arius and his man made lies”
Follow Jesus
Jesus said by their fruit we will know false teachers. It seems we can be fooled by the pius and religious words of men but thorn bushes cannot produce figs. You say you would rather follow the teachings of Athanasius. I do not know why you would want to follow any man but his fruit deserves some special study.
NH
Again
I follow no mans creed!
Attack, Attack, Attack!
Quote (retepmurT @ Jan. 14 2007,07:38) Hi Nick,
God our Father sends a big part of himself down as flesh in Jesus Christ.
God sends a piece of His spirit down to us when we seek and trust in Him. That's the Holy Spirit. It seems to me God sent Jesus to connect us to Him, Jesus being the Mediator between us and God. He sends a part of Himself in spirit to us when we seek Him to help educate and Guide Us, the Holy Spirit, right. 3 in1 right. Serving three different purposes but all part of 1 our Heavenly Father.
larry
Hi Larry,
Jesus is the Son of God, not a hunk of Dad.
He was filled with His Dad's Spirit and if we are born into him we can share in that life forever.
Men will not tell you this but the bible does.Arianism
Arius taught that God the Father and the Son did not exist together eternally. Further, Arius taught that the pre-incarnate Jesus was a divine being but nonetheless created by (and consequently inferior to) the Father at some point, before which the Son did not exist. In English-language works, it is sometimes said that Arians believe that Jesus is or was a “creature”; in this context, the word is being used in its original sense of “created being”.
With the exception of perhaps the Protestant Reformation, the various disagreements within the Christian Church have not held the same force and power of theological and political conflict as that which the Arian controversy exuded
The controversy over Arianism began to rise in the late third century and extended over the greater part of the fourth century and involved most church members, simple believers, priests and monks as well as bishops, emperors and members of Rome's imperial family. Yet, such a deep controversy within the Church could not have materialized in the third and fourth centuries without some significant historical influences providing the basis for the Arian doctrines.
BELIEFS
Because most contemporary written material on Arianism was written by its opponents, the nature of Arius' teachings is difficult to define precisely today. The letter of Auxentius[2], a 4th century Arian bishop of Milan, regarding the missionary Ulfilas, gives the clearest picture of Arian beliefs on the nature of the Trinity: God the Father (“unbegotten”), always existing, was separate from the lesser Jesus Christ (“only-begotten”), born before time began and creator of the world. The Father, working through the Son, created the Holy Spirit, who was subservient to the Son as the Son was to the Father. The Father was seen as “the only true God.” 1Corinthians 8:5-6 was cited as proof text:
“Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth — as in fact there are many gods and many lords — yet for us there is one God (theos), the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord (kyrios), Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (NRSV)
Would you look at the proof text. He He He.
Like the Arians, many groups have embraced the belief that Jesus is not the one God, but a separate being subordinate to the Father, and that Jesus at one time did not exist. Some of these profess, as the Arians did, that God made all things through the pre-existent Christ. Some profess that Jesus became divine, through exaltation, just as the Arians believed. Drawing a parallel between these groups and Arians can be useful for distinguishing a type of unbelief in the Trinity. But, despite the frequency with which this name is used as a polemical label, there has been no historically continuous survival of Arianism into the modern era. The groups so labelled do not hold beliefs identical to Arianism. For this reason, they do not use the name as a self-description, even if they acknowledge that their beliefs are at points in agreement with, or in broad terms similar to, Arianism.
Those whose religious beliefs have been compared to or labeled as Arianism include:
Unitarians, who believe that God is one as opposed to a Trinity, and many of whom believe in the moral authority, but not the deity, of Jesus. Arianism is considered to be an antecedent of Unitarian Universalism.
Jehovah's Witnesses, who do have some similar beliefs to Arius, namely, that Jesus had a pre-human existence as the Logos. However, Arius viewed the Holy Spirit as a person, whereas Jehovah's Witnesses do not attribute personality to the spirit. Jehovah's Witnesses also, unlike Arians, deny belief in a disembodied soul after death, eternal punishment in hell for the unrepentantly wicked, and episcopacy: doctrines to which the Arians did not obviously object.
Christadelphians, along with the Church of the Blessed Hope, believe that Jesus' pre-natal existence was a conceptual Logos, rather than a literal Logos.
Mormons, followers of the various churches of the Latter Day Saint movement, who believe in the unity in purpose of the Godhead but that Jesus is a divine being distinct from, and created by, God the Father, but similar in every other respect (thus roughly Homoiousian rather than Anomoean). Thus, Jesus is literally (spiritually) the Firstborn of the Father. Also in line with Arianism, Mormons believe that the pre-incarnate Jesus (the Logos of John 1) created the Earth under the direction of the Father. In fact, they go further than most on this point, equating the pre-existent Jesus with Jehovah, the God of the Old Testamant (perhaps as a spokesman for the Father, for whom they reserve the Old Testament title Elohim). Although the LDS Church views the doctrinal schisms of the late Roman Empire as a sure sign of the Great Apostasy, they do not officially claim any allegiance to Arius (in fact, most Mormons have probably never heard of him).
Muslims, who believe that Jesus (generally called Isa), was a Messenger and Prophet of the one God, but not himself divine.
Michael Servetus, a Spanish scholar and Protestant reformer, is viewed by many Unitarians as a founding figure. In 1553, he was sentenced to death and burned at the stake by his fellow reformers, including John Calvin, for the heresy of Antitrinitarianism, a Christology that may seem similar in some ways to Arianism. However, Servetus rejected Arius's teaching on the Son being a creature created by the Father, and his theology was actually closer to Sabellianism.
Unpublished writings by Isaac Newton indicate that he held anti-Trinitarian beliefs and regarded the worship of Jesus Christ as God to be idolatrous.[2]. He did not publicize these views, which could have cost him his fellowship at Trinity College, Cambridge, and has been described by modern scholars as a secret Arian. [citation needed]
Spanish liberation theologian Juan José Tamayo was accused in 2003 of defending “a renewed version of the old Arian error” which is “incompatible with the Catholic faith”, by the Spanish Bishops' Commission for the Doctrine of the Faith, because of his theological positions published in several of his books about the relationship between Jesus and God the Father. Tamayo has up to now rejected the Bishops' demand to stop writing on this issue.[3]Looks like you fit in well NH!
Apostles Creed
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended to Hades, on the third day rose again from the dead, ascended to heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. From there He will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic [or universal] church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting.
Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten of His Father, of the substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made, both that are in heaven and in earth; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate and was made man. He suffered and the third day he rose again, and ascended into heaven. And he shall come again to judge both the living and the dead. And we believe in the Holy Spirit.
Here is were they should have stopped. Athanasius butchered the the truths above.
Hi MS,
The God we know makes us one with Him in His Son in the Spirit.Grasp Heb 6 1-2 and God's Spirit will show us the rest.
We do not need to add to the Words of God.
I don't think the creeds are sacred at all. I just don't think the above two creeds conflict with scripture.
I don't have the creeds memorized nor do I usually ever even think of them.
I was just showing the evolution of thought that eventually led to the trinity.
I feel these creeds at one time reflected scriptural teachings and then came the Athanasian creed and usurped scriptures with the dogma of man.
They aren't needed at all. You are right.
I do believe they don't contradict scripture, none the less.
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