Are you happy that jesus died for you?

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 31 2010,03:40)

Quote (theodorej @ July 30 2010,23:24)

Greetings B…..How can you not love a guy who took a beating for you so you could live on…If you didn't love him you would certainly be gratefull for what he did for you…I would,and so would you..I don't see you as an ingrate…The crucifiction was symbolic of the Abramic form of sacrafice which required a spotless lamb to be offered for the remission of sins and the pleasure of the Eternal…Jesus fullfilled profhecy and conquered death so as to demonstrate Gods plan for all of us….Which is to be part of his family and dwell in his kingdom and his goverment…We all will get a chance to see and we will ask other how could it have been any other way…

But if that were true he could not have died in such a way to take “my” place because:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:62-64

If the flesh profiteth nothing then Jesus dying on the cross would not benefit anyone, besides the fact that it is still appointed that each man die once.

So in what way could Jesus have died for us he was not spiritually condemned

This is why this is so important to discuss because the scriptures tell us that Jesus was plotted against and betrayed and that shows that he was not willing but was captured and tortured no sacrifice to God that has been tortured or treated cruelly is acceptable to God

The Quran reveals that the plot of the Jews failed and God raised Jesus up to HIMSELF alive just how he raised up Jonah from the deep ALIVE

On the contrary…..We are not speaking of any benefits for the flesh….other than the knowledge of Gods plan and that is limited by the amount of confusion organized religion presents….Jesus' sacrafice was for the purpose of saving us all from eternal death…God is not trying to save this world …he is just affording us the liberty to do as we please until such time as he decides to step in and that time will be when we bring this world to a point where we are faced with the prospect of total destruction….We will die and there will be a resurection to judgement…that is when Jesus' sacrafice for the remission of sin will aford us all an opportunity to see Gods plan and choose to live under his government in his kingdom…If we choose not to take advantage of our privledge to be of the God family…we will be subject to the second death and that will mean we will just cease to exist….Only a select few will experience the torment of the lake of fire…..Jesus' death and subsequent resurection was part of Gods plan for our salvation….It demonstrates how God wants no one to perish and we will all have victory over death(the first death)through a resurection…

July 31, 2010 at 1:28 pm#207036

Participant

Quote (Stu @ July 31 2010,00:06)

Quote (theodorej @ July 30 2010,23:24)

The pushing of this man-god martyr myth on others is a bit like a fence selling stolen goods in a pub, except at least if you commit the immoral act of receiving stolen goods you might get something useful out of it.

Stuart

Greetings Stu….Interesting analogy….I have to assume the position of a fence selling the stolen goods….In order to effectivly apply your analogy would you concede that although the goods are stolen they are in fact real….Not withstanding your mythalogical accessment…In order for the life and existance of Jesus to be a myth we would have to dismiss as liars many learned agnostics and athiests..

July 31, 2010 at 1:50 pm#207041

Participant

Quote (theodorej @ July 31 2010,23:55)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 31 2010,03:40)

Quote (theodorej @ July 30 2010,23:24)

But if that were true he could not have died in such a way to take “my” place because:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:62-64

If the flesh profiteth nothing then Jesus dying on the cross would not benefit anyone, besides the fact that it is still appointed that each man die once.

So in what way could Jesus have died for us he was not spiritually condemned

The Quran reveals that the plot of the Jews failed and God raised Jesus up to HIMSELF alive just how he raised up Jonah from the deep ALIVE

Then that would mean Lazarus and those before him who were raised from the dead had victory over death first

August 2, 2010 at 1:00 pm#207368

Participant

Greetings B…. With reference to what I hold to be true….I would have to say that Lazarus' resurection was without a doubt a miracle and a victory over death…The events that followed in his life are not clear….if you can shed some light on it….please do..

August 2, 2010 at 2:57 pm#207370

Participant

To whomever it concerns….

This is just an opinion of mine, but I don't think Lazarus was Resurrected. And when I use this word, I'm speaking in terms of how the Jews understood that word. The Jews did not believe that any Resurrection was going to happen until the end of the world. So when Jesus brought Lazarus back to life, it was not in a Resurrected body. How do we know? Because Lazarus died again from natural causes. We won't die again in our Resurrected body.

Also, Lazarus did not have victory over death because it was not him who raised himself up from death. It was Jesus. Jesus has the power over death, not Lazarus. Lazarus couldn't do a thing to help himself. Lazarus never had a hand in his own miracle of coming back to life. It was all Jesus. Jesus had the power over death… and life… not Lazarus.

So there was no victory for Lazarus. Lazarus had no victory over death.

Anyway… that is my understanding of how things work.

BTW Asana… I am not clear from your response as to whether or not you wanted to explore the issue of whether Jesus died and was Resurrected.

August 2, 2010 at 6:02 pm#207397

Participant

Quote (francis @ Aug. 03 2010,01:57)

To whomever it concerns….

So there was no victory for Lazarus. Lazarus had no victory over death.

Anyway… that is my understanding of how things work.

BTW Asana… I am not clear from your response as to whether or not you wanted to explore the issue of whether Jesus died and was Resurrected.

Yes, of course I would like to pursue the dialogue.

Now in regards to what you said about resurrection and Lazarus as being different than Jesus.

If Jesus had a resurrected Body then why was he hungry and thirsty? He asked for broiled fish and honey comb. Obviously his body was still made of flesh and blood when he was taken up. He also said clearly he was not a ghost

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luke 24:38-40

So if he gave up the Ghost and he was raised back up with that same ghost in that same body then it was the same as lazarus who would have also been buried even longer than Jesus.

Now also Jesus did not raise Lazarus or Himself from death except by the POWER of GOD (who is not Christ)

Jesus wept.
John 11:34-36

John 11:38-39 (King James Version)

38Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.

39Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

John 11:40-42 (King James Version)

40Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

41Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

42And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

Now regarding our dialogue about Jesus dying on the cross and be resurrected look at this last verse again

He says I KNEW THOU HEAREST ME ALWAYS

And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
Mark 14:35-37

What does God will?

But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Matthew 12:6-8

and to whom?

Psalm 89:26-28 (King James Version)

26He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

27Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

28My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:5-7

August 3, 2010 at 8:06 am#207538

Participant

Hello Asana…

Quote

Now in regards to what you said about resurrection and Lazarus as being different than Jesus.

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:38-40)

So if he gave up the Ghost and he was raised back up with that same ghost in that same body then it was the same as Lazarus who would have also been buried even longer than Jesus.

First of all, you're assuming that because Jesus asked for broiled fish and honey comb, then that must mean only one thing, and that is that he was hungry and thirsty. But the text doesn't tell us whether Jesus was hungry and thirsty. And therefore logically, it is a non sequitur to suggest that the ONLY REASON why Jesus would ask for something to eat was because He was hungry. All I need to do is offer an equally plausible reason for Jesus asking for food other than the one you gave us, and I have successfully shown that you have not proved your point here.

For example, it could very well be that in order to convince the frightened disciples he was NOT an immaterial spirit (Luke 24:37), Jesus emphatically told them that his resurrection body had flesh. He declared: “look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have” (Luke 24:39)

Here we can see that Jesus is making a huge effort to convince His frightened disciples that they were not seeing a ghost… or an immaterial spirit. And so when we read that Jesus is asking for food to eat, it is perfectly consistent with this effort of his. Therefore, the text actually lends more plausibility to my explanation than your explanation. Especially in light of the fact that no one is suggesting that our resurrected bodies will be exactly the same as our present bodies in all respects.

That is what I think you are doing. You see Jesus asking for food, and you immediately assume that His body at that time is exactly the same, in every manner, as it was before His time on the cross. But you have no textual basis for making such an uncritical assumption when the subject is about Resurrected bodies.

Quote

Now also Jesus did not raise Lazarus or Himself from death except by the POWER of GOD (who is not Christ)….

— Jesus wept. (John 11:34-36)

— Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. John 11:38-39 (King James Version)

— Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. John 11:40-42 (King James Version)

First of all, the above verses do not say that Jesus raised Lazarus by the power of God. Where does it say this in the above verses: John 11:34-42? It doesn't. Jesus could very well have raised Lazarus on His own power so that the people who were standing by and who were watching Him, may believe that God had sent Him into this world. And so maybe Jesus was praying for this opportunity and was then thanking God for this opportunity.. thanking God for hearing Him. Can you see that possibility?

I'm not saying that this was what actually happened, only that the above verses you cited doesn't preclude that possibility.

But anyway… let's suppose you're correct and these verses do indicate that it was God who raised Lazarus (at the request of Jesus) from the dead. So? My entire point was that Lazarus did not conquer death and that he was not resurrected. That was the only point I was raising in my last post to you which was posted on Aug. 03 2010,01:57:

Now, I understand that there is some question as to whether Jesus was resurrected on His own power, or whether it was God who raised Jesus. There are verses for both sides.

What I don't want to do is to muddy the waters on the issue I was raising. I want to keep the integrity and focus on what my main point was and not go down rabbit trails. So allow me to again raise the points I was raising in my 7th post on Aug. 03 2010,01:57:

1)… I don't think Lazarus was Resurrected.

You've done nothing to rebut this. The verses you cited, John 11:34-42 does not say that Lazarus was Resurrected in a Resurrected body. There is a difference between being resurrected and being resuscitated. Both are physical in nature but there are some difference between the bodies. So my point remains as I stated it in my post to you.

2)… Lazarus did not have victory over death because it was not him who raised himself up from death.

Whether Lazarus coming back to life was due because of Jesus or God, it wasn't because of Lazarus. So Lazarus did not have victory over death. The person having victory over death was either Jesus or God. So my point remains as I stated it in my post to you.

3)… Jesus has the power over death, not Lazarus.

Nothing you've shown so far rebuts this. Even the verses you cited, John 11:34-42 shows that Jesus did have power over death… even if you want to argue that this power/authority came from God.

But since as a Christian I believe that Jesus was God Incarnate here on earth… and is made of the substance as God… and is equal to God… then even when the scriptures teach that Jesus was resurrected by God, He is in essence being resurrected by His own power.

But whether or not you believe Jesus was God Incarante here on earth, the point is that what I said is true. Jesus had the power over death in Lazarus's case, not Lazarus… even if that power/authority came from God. That's the bottom line, and so my point remains as I stated it in my post to you.

To sum up so far… the above are the 3 points I made in my post to you, and you've done nothing (that I can see so far) to rebut any one of them.

And now let's go on with the rest of your post:

Quote

Now regarding our dialogue about Jesus dying on the cross and be resurrected look at this last verse again

He says I KNEW THOU HEAREST ME ALWAYS

And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. (Mark 14:35-37)

What does God will?

But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. (Matthew 12:6-8)

and to whom?

He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my first
born, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. (Psalm 89:26-28…King James Version)

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. (Hosea 6:5-7)

I'm not sure how these verses apply to our discussion about Lazarus. My entire post to you was about how I don't think Lazarus was Resurrected.

Unless these verses are meaning to apply to the issue of Jesus' Resurrection. If that is the case, I would prefer to separate these two issues into their own posts/threads so that there is no confusion.

And that is why I said that I would prefer, for my side, to present a positive case for Jesus' resurrection based on neutral evidence (agreed upon by historians) rather than trying to argue over the interpretation of certain verses.

If the neutral evidence points to the Resurrection, then it would follow that the verses your bring up for your case might be an interpretation issue, rather than any evidentiary issue. What neutral evidence would you bring to the table that shows that the Jesus' Resurrection didn't happen?

But again, I would prefer to start a new post/thread about the Jesus' Resurrection that is separate from the points I was making about Lazarus coming back to life.

Respectfully
Francis.

August 3, 2010 at 2:25 pm#207561

Participant

Lazarus was raised from the dead
Jesus was raised from the dead

Victory over death obviously has nothing to do with one's own ability to raise themselves from the dead as everyone will be resurrected in the end
some to everlasting life and some to everlasting damnation and with that said where is the difference?

The scripture not only says Jesus asked for the food but also that he ate it

Luke 24:43 (King James Version)

43And he took it, and did eat before them.

Jesus also told Mary NOT to touch him for he had not ASCENDED yet, therefore at that point it shows he may have been
in pain or did not want others to see a woman touch him(Possibly because he was in disguise) because he didn't deny the disciples touching him. in-fact he says HANDLE ME

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
John 20:14-16

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:16-18

So with this verse you believe that ascention is not needed for resurrection? Then how does one receive a heavenly body?

Jesus also says that:

Luke 20:35-38 (King James Version)

35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

37Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

38For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

So the point is where is the difference between Lazarus and Jesus in “being brought back to life” Neither were ascended up to God before coming back from the dead.

When Paul says he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus he certainly is not seeing the same Jesus body as the disciples saw, the disciples do not see Jesus in a different way in-fact they are afraid because they “assumed” he was dead so when he asks for food it is more like him showing them he is ALIVE and not dead as they presumed.

You have not shown any difference between Lazarus and Jesus in the context of them both coming back to life

John 12:1-2 (King James Version)

John 12
1Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

2There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

Now, how is it when the scripture says Lazarus was raised from the dead you switch the context of what it means to be raised from the dead?

You believe that both were RAISED from the dead. Is it a Miracle to be resuscitated? If it was a Miracle for Lazarus to be raised from the dead after 4 days how is it you believe he was raised from the dead in the same flesh and yet Jesus was raised after 3 days with resurrected flesh?

And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
John 20:13-15

But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
John 21:3-5

Once again in these passages it demonstrates that Jesus was in some sort of disguise if not how would they not recognize their own teacher and friend of 3 years?

Also If Jesus had a resurrected body that could not die again at that time why would he hide this fact from the Jews and Romans for surely they would have all believed then and there.

August 3, 2010 at 7:04 pm#207572

Participant

Greetings B…..Lazarus was raised from the dead as per the devine power of the father vested in Jesus….He did nothing to facilitate his coming to life after death….Just as we can and will do nothing to facilitate our resurection…but Francis makes an accurate observation with respect to our glorified spirit body…Lazurus came back to life in his corruptable carnal existance as Francis stated and died of natural causes..( P.S.something I never realized…will have to prove it)

August 3, 2010 at 8:58 pm#207583

Participant

Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 04 2010,06:04)

There is no where in the scriptures that shows any difference between Lazarus and Jesus regarding their physical body after being “raised” They both still ate and could be handled by others.

Why is it assumptions must be made about Lazarus but those same assumptions are ignored about Jesus?

Now, it is my view that Jesus was raised up to God alive the same way Elijah was, without seeing death or corruption.

Jesus has never tasted death

Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
John 8:51-53

Have you ever considered that the entire NT is a super parable?

Did Jesus really die?

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Matthew 8:21-23

Their are several layers in the scriptures that one finds according to how hard they seek and how loud they knock.

Consider that the Gospel of John is not the same as Mark, Luke or Matthew

Consider this:

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
John 12:26-28

now consider these:

1.Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

2.Matthew 26:42
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

3.Mark 14:36
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

4.Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

August 3, 2010 at 9:06 pm#207586

Participant

John represents Jesus in a way that may not be based on facts but of admiration:

1.John 13:23
Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

2.John 19:26
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

3.John 20:2
Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the LORD out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

4.John 21:7
Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.

5.John 21:20
Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

Now this term “the disciple whom Jesus loved” is not mentioned in any other of the gospels. now watch this:

John 20:1-7 (King James Version)

John 20
1The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

2Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the LORD out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

3Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.

4So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.

5And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.

6Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,

7And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

August 4, 2010 at 5:21 pm#207685

Participant

Hello Anasa…

My time is limited and so I can't always respond quickly. I was almost done with my post when I saw that you added some more information. I want to integrate the new material into my response.

Thanks for your patience
Francis

August 4, 2010 at 5:36 pm#207686

Participant

Hello theodorej…

Quote

I didn't mean to give the wrong impression. We actually don't know what happened to Lazurus after he was raised from the dead by God/Jesus.

The conclusion that he died again is deduced from common sense. If Lazurus didn't die again, he would still be walking around today. So that leaves only one other possibility… and that would be that he was taken up into heaven before he died a second time. But if that actually did occur, common sense tells us that we would have heard about it because of the incredible miracle that had already happened with Lazarus. Being taken up into heaven before Lazarus died would have been too incredible to not have made note of the event if it had actually happened.

The story would have been too good to pass up if this had happened. Why would you mention the first miracle, and not the second miracle? So using common sense, we can deduce that Lazarus must have died again, even though we have no record of what happened to him.

And because a resurrected body is immortal, we can also deduce that Lazarus was not resurrected the first time around.

Respectfully
Francis

August 4, 2010 at 5:46 pm#207688

Participant

Quote (francis @ Aug. 05 2010,04:36)

Hello theodorej…

Quote

I didn't mean to give the wrong impression. We actually don't know what happened to Lazurus after he was raised from the dead by God/Jesus.

And because a resurrected body is immortal, we can also deduce that Lazarus was not resurrected the first time around.

Respectfully
Francis

The theory of mentioning something very important or miraculous does not hold up. Paul didn't mention the Virgin birth in his entire catalogue of writings.

In-fact Paul says Jesus came according to the flesh

August 4, 2010 at 6:03 pm#207689

Participant

Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the

Quote

fruit of his loins, according to the flesh

, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:29-31

How can Christ Jesus be the fruit of the loins?

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of

Quote

the seed of David according to the flesh;

Romans 1:2-4

Is Jesus the seed of David?

August 4, 2010 at 10:02 pm#207710

Participant

Hello Anasa…

Quote

The theory of mentioning something very important or miraculous does not hold up. Paul didn't mention the Virgin birth in his entire catalogue of writings. In-fact Paul says Jesus came according to the flesh.

First of all… I can only guess why Paul wouldn't mention the virgin birth. The fact is, he doesn't tell us why either way. If someone doesn't mention something, there could be a variety of reasons for that. Maybe it didn't happen or maybe it did (I happen to think Jesus was born of a virgin). But the point is that we can't be presumptious and pretend we can read people's minds as to why they say certain things (or don't) and why they do certain things (or don't).

This is why we need to use logic and common sense and look for the most reasonable/probable answers that is the most consistent within the context of the writings we are looking at.

With that reasonable and common sense approach in mind… look at the differences we can immediately discern between the narrative of the virgin birth and the death of Lazarus. Only a few people were even around or witnessed the actual birth of Jesus from Mary. Indeed, in the abscence of any revelation from God, only Joseph and Mary would really know if Jesus was born of a virgin.

If God didn't reveal it to them, the wise men wouldn't know if Jesus was born of a virgin because they weren't there before the birth to see how Mary became pregnant.. and neither were they there at the moment of Jesus' birth. The same holds true for the shepards attending their flocks. Except for his parents, no one was there in the begining to know if Jesus was born of a virgin.

And yet contrast that fact with Lazarus. We had a multitude of people all watching Jesus perform this miracle with Lazarus. Indeed, raising Lazarus from the dead served a distinct purpose… so that those watching would know that Jesus was sent here to earth from God. These multitude of people were eyewitnesses. And like all eyewitness accounts, the miracle of what they saw with their own eyes, is going to be spread like wild fire… for the glory of God. And that is exactly what happened.

To say that all these eyewitnesses… as well as Lazarus' sisters and family… wouldn't have an acute interest and curiousity about Lazarus and what is going to happen to him now that he was raised from the dead… this defies common sense. Everyone is going to be watching Lazarus to see what, if anything, will happen next. Indeed, no one is going to look at Lazarus in the same way again. Who could? You would be talking with a man who was raised from the dead. Not many people have that opportunity. And so it makes sense that people are going to be watching him closely. That is human nature.

And yet, no one was around for the virgin birth. There were no eyewitnesses. With Lazarus it was completely the opposite. You had a crowd of eyewitnesses. The miracle of what happened spread like wildfire. Knowing human nature as we do, it is far more reasonable to conclude from the silence of history that Lazarus was not taken to heaven before he died a second time. People being the way they are, would have noted Lazarus' 2nd miracle just as they noted the 1st miracle if he was taken into heaven.

Unfortunately, there were no human eyewitnesses to record and note the miracle of the virgin birth aside from his parents and angels… but there were many eyewitnesses to record and note the miracle of Lazarus being raised from the dead.

And for that reason, it is my opinion that it would be a category fallacy to try and compare the two.

Secondly… after reading some of the things you've written, I can't help but wonder why we are discussing the differences and/or similiarities between Lazarus and Jesus being raised from the dead? You don't even believe that Jesus tasted death. So why are we discussing this topic at all?

Anasa… please forgive me for being dense, but I am having difficulty following your train of thought. It's not your fault, I'm just a bit slow. It was you who brought up Lazarus to begin with and I thought his death and being raised from dead had some kind of significance for your beliefs. But after reading your posts, it seems that your belief that Jesus never died on the cross, has far more significance and consequences for our respective spiritual lives than our mutual agreement that Lazarus died, and then was raised from the dead. Doesn't it?

I am assuming that you do believe that Lazarus died and was raised from the dead. Am I correct in that?

Well, if that is the case, then we should be talking about the issue of whether Jesus actually died or not on the cross. Correct?

If you agree, then I'm going to amend what I've been writing at home, and go with that angle.

Respectfully
Francis

August 4, 2010 at 10:24 pm#207712

Participant

Hello again Anasa…

So as I understand it… the topic between you and I is the issue of whether Jesus actually died on the cross or not.

You don't have to, but it would help if you could give me a few reasons as to why you don't believe that Jesus died on the cross. I know you are busy, and so if you don't have the time to do so, I will go back and try and glean from your recent posts the reasons why you do not believe Jesus ever tasted death… that He never died on the cross.

Respectfully
Francis

August 4, 2010 at 11:51 pm#207724

Participant

Quote (francis @ Aug. 05 2010,09:24)

Hello again Anasa…

So as I understand it… the topic between you and I is the issue of whether Jesus actually died on the cross or not.

Respectfully
Francis

First of all there is always a method to my “madness”

With Lazarus the point was that Jesus was not in a “different ” type of Body than Jesus was, at the point in the scriptures where you think he is resurrected.

Also in regards to Lazarus and what I quoted about John before, once again you say that Lazarus was worth mentioning accept for the fact that no other writer mentioned it at all except John. Not Mark, Matthew or Luke or for that matter even Paul.

I believe that Lazarus was raised from the dead and I believe that Jesus was born a virgin.

I believe and understand “know” that God saved Jesus from the cross, I believed it before I ever read the Quran so when I saw it in the Quran it was a confirmation.

God does not need sacrifice to forgive the prerequisite for forgiveness is repentance.

I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Luke 5:31-33

What a clear sentence “call sinners to repent”

Understand that this them of Jesus dying for the sins of the world is a weak theme in the scriptures.

John says:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 1:28-30

Taking away the sins of the world does not require death just as death was not required for the scapegoat who took away the sins of Israel at atonement

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Leviticus 16:20-22

Now if you read these verses in Leviticus carefully you will get the revelation of revelations.

This will explain why Jesus was baptized as Baptism is for the remission of sins but Jesus wasn't a sinner so why was he baptized by John whom Jesus says no one born of woman is greater? Again study the verse

“shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness”

Jesus always leaves clues, why else would he say:

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Matthew 11:10-12

For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
Luke 7:27-29

When I read this long ago I thought to myself why did Jesus say that because esentially he would be saying that John is greater than Jesus himself because Jesus was born of woman and is also a prophet

But it makes perfect sense if you want someone to catch on to something easy to remember.

So if Jesus is the scapegoat that bears all the sins you easily understand that the scapegoat is not killed and once again scapegoat and the writing about it sticks out for those who seek to see.

Finally think about the entire NT and the fact that it is a very indirect writing and that is why there are so many Christian denominations today because the entire NT is a super parable.

August 5, 2010 at 5:04 am#207758