Are you happy that jesus died for you?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Your argument again is with the Spirit of God.
Yet you claim to be inspired?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 17 2009,14:35)

Hi BD, Your argument again is with the Spirit of God. Yet you claim to be inspired?

How could it be an argument with the spirit when the writer said it cannot be the spirit of God that says Christ is accursed?

The word of God is sharper than any two edged sword

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Wrestling with God can only harm you.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 17 2009,14:42)

Hi BD, Wrestling with God can only harm you.

Then don't wrestle with God as you are now.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
God does not attack Himself.
No kingdom would last if it did as Jesus told us.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 17 2009,14:52)

Hi BD, God does not attack Himself. No kingdom would last if it did as Jesus told us.

But it is written that he will purge his House.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
First you must enter.
But there still is room for cleansed vessels.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 17 2009,14:57)

Hi BD, First you must enter. But there still is room for cleansed vessels.

You have not entered otherwise you would know me and love me but you take the keys and dont go into the Father and then try to keep others out.

Go through the door and leave it open, Bow with those who Bow.

[942767]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2009,14:11)

Quote (942767 @ July 17 2009,13:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2009,12:15) Quote (942767 @ July 17 2009,09:47) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,16:52) Quote (942767 @ July 16 2009,16:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,16:12) Quote (942767 @ July 16 2009,16:09) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,15:32) I find it interesting that when confronted with the very idea that Jesus was spared by God from being killed by way of crucifixion, Most get upset, so I would like to really know does your love for Jesus surpass your salvation? Hi BD:   Our love for Jesus is based on the fact that while we were yet sinners he died for us.  We could not have been saved if he had not done so, and therefore, we love him by obeying his commandments. Quote Rom 5:6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.   Rom 5:7   For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.   Rom 5:8   But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.   Rom 5:9   Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.   Rom 5:10   For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.   Love in Christ, Marty That was not the question Marty, Does your love for Jesus surpass your desire to be saved? If you could spare Jesus the Cross at your own expense would you do it? Would you suffer for your own sins that the innocent might escape punishment? Hi BD: I did not know about Jesus until God showed me how much he loved me.  Of course, I a sorry that he had to suffer as he did, but no, God could have stopped it, but this is only way that any one could be saved.  So, your question is a foolish question. Look at what Jesus told the Apostle Peter who did not believe Jesus when he was telling him what he had to suffer: Quote Mat 16:21 ¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.   Mat 16:22   Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.   Mat 16:23   But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.   Mat 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.   Mat 16:25   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.   Love in Christ, Marty Mat 16:25   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.   Yes but you want to be SAVED and I am willing to lose my salvation for the sake of Jesus whom I love and will never say he is or was a Curse. and you say that if Jesus didn't die for our sins no one would be saved but look: Mark 10 27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Surely the Spirit of God is with me tonight. Hi BD: You don't know what you are talking about when you say you would lose your salvation in order to spare Jesus what he went through.  There is no salvation apart from what God has done in the person of Jesus His Only Begotten Son and His Christ. God is a God of justice, and the wages of sin is death.  If we do not learn to overcome sin in the body of Christ, we are only in his house temporarily.  There will be no sin in the world to come. Quote Jhn 8:34   Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.   Jhn 8:35   And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever.   Jhn 8:36   If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.   All things are indeed possible with God, but His plan in the beginning was to make man in his own image, and this the fulfillment of this is accomplished in the body of Christ. Love in Christ, Marty Every one dies today even Christians, so what will you say now? that the scriptures speak of a spiritual death? Christ is not spiritually dead so he didn't spiritually die for our sins. So what will you say now? In what way did Christ take your place? Hi BD: This is what Jesus has to say on the subject of the resurrection: Quote Mat 22:31   But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,   Mat 22:32   I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.   Quote Jhn 11:25   Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:   Jhn 11:26   And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?   Yes, everyone including Christians die, but the soul of those who are serving God in Christ is alive to God.  The scripture states that the soul of the dead in Christ is asleep awaiting the 1st resurrection which is commonly referred to as the rapture. Jesus was delivered up to be crucified by the religious leaders in his time and was accused of blasphemy, and so, he was accursed in this condemnation.  He broke the law according to the religious leaders and the wages of sin is death which not only means the death of body but spiritual separation from God. Since all men have broken God's Law, all men who die in their sins are condemned by the law, but this is what the scripture states: Quote Gal 3:13   Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:   When he ascended into heaven into the holy of holies he is our high priest and mediator, because he lives to make intercession for us, when we come to God with a repentant heart through him, he can ask God to forgive us.  We all had a part in crucifying him through our sin. Love in Christ, Marty First of all I asked you in what way did Jesus Christ take your place? Second, How is Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac alive to God through Christ? Or How is it they are dead in Christ? Breaking the law according to religious leaders does not make you guilty Jesus even said that they were wrong condemning the innocent as guilty. Jesus did not sin so he could not have earned those wages and he certainly was not seperated from God who raised him up to Himself. How was Jesus seperated from God, he is at His right hand. In no way was Jesus cursed and neither is the law you quote Gal 3:13 and so I give you this from the same author: See and recognize truth 1 Corinthians 12:2-4 (King James Version) 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Psalm 19:6-8 (King James Version) 7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. Doesn't sound like a curse to me. It is amazing to me how you first thingk it is wonderful that someone died for you and then you say that the person became also a curse. Have you never really considered what you were saying or thinking. Even the person who wrote he became a curse said that no one speaketh by the spirit says that Christ is accursed but isn't that what he said?

Hi BD:

You ask:

How did Christ take my place? I have already answered your question, but study the following scriptures and maybe you will understand:

Quote

Hbr 9:6 ¶ Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God]. Hbr 9:7 But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people: Hbr 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Hbr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation. Hbr 9:11 ¶ But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hbr 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us]. Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Hbr 9:16 ¶ For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Hbr 9:18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood. Hbr 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Hbr 9:20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Hbr 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Hbr 9:23 ¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Hbr 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

You ask:

Quote

Second, How is Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac alive to God through Christ? Or How is it they are dead in Christ?

Quote

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise. Gal 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one. Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.

The blood that the Lord Jesus shed was the proptitiation for the sins of all who obeyed God prior to the ministry of Jesus and for all who come to God through him since his resurrection from the dead, and that is how Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive in Christ.

I already discussed with you that Jesus was made a curse for us, but is not accursed from God now. He died condemned by the religious leaders, but God raised him from dead declaring him not guilty.

The laws of God are good, no doubt, but the curse is that we all have broken the law, and when you break the law there is a penalty to pay. Here is what the Apostle Paul states about this:

Quote

Rom 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead. Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death. Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me]. Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Rom 7:13 ¶ Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good. Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Lightenup]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,12:46)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2009,20:34) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 15 2009,23:32) I find it interesting that when confronted with the very idea that Jesus was spared by God from being killed by way of crucifixion, Most get upset, so I would like to really know does your love for Jesus surpass your salvation? Hi Bo, I do not think that people would get upset if Jesus was indeed spared by God from being killed by way of crucifixion if it truly was only His willingness to die that was needed for our salvation.  However, it was not only His willingness to die but actually the shedding of His blood and death that was required so that we could be cleansed by His blood.  To even think that we would be fit to take His place and be able to cleanse ourselves and others with our shed blood would be a grand error. We are blemished and He was not.  His blood satisfies, ours would not. I do not think that you realize that Jesus's shed blood and death was one of His major purposes for coming as a man.  If people are upset with those that believe there was no shed blood or death it is probably because they deny His greatest act due to love for us and obedience to His Father. John 13:6-8 6 So He came to Simon Peter. He said to Him, “Lord, do You wash my feet?” 7 Jesus answered and said to him, “What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter.” 8 Peter said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” NASU In the above passage Peter was trying to appear valiant and humble by refusing Jesus's service towards him.  That makes me think of your questions regarding our not allowing Jesus to die because we love Him and insisting that we die for our own sins.  I believe that Jesus's answer to us would be “If I do not wash you with MY blood, you have no part with Me.” Bo, your Islam religion denies one of the greatest acts that Jesus did, that is why people get upset…it is not because we want Him to suffer.  His shed blood and death makes Him our conquering hero who now lives again. If my son went to war and took a fatal bullet because he purposely put himself in front of another man which that bullet was intended for in order to protect the other man, well, don't you think that the fact that he died for another is an important part of the story that would go down in history.  Islam wants to water down the gallant act of Christ.  If you say that my son purposely put himself in front of another man and the bullet missed them both by a hair, yes that is still courageous and valiant but not as much as dying for the other man.  I know that is not a perfect comparison but hopefully you get the idea.  If my son died for another soldier and that other soldier didn't realize it and thought that my son just tripped and fell in front of him and accidently took the fatal bullet, the other soldier would have missed the magnitude of the sacrifice and its significance.  That is what I think Islam does…it misses the magnitude of the sacrifice and therefore its full significance. IMO Now, to answer your question…my love for Jesus allows His crucifixion to take place because otherwise I would be in the way of Him completing His mission. Blessings, Kathi I appreciate your well thought out post, however there are some questions I have for you. God forbids and hates human sacrifice, he prevented Abraham from taking the life of Isaac giving a substitute instead. Jeremiah 32 35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin God said that human sacrifice never even came to his mind Also, There is no need to shed blood for the atonement of sins in-fact all the sins of the people must be placed on the head of a living sacrifice referred to as the SCAPEGOAT and it must be presented ALIVE before GOD. Did you know that? Leviticus 16:9-11 (New King James Version) 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the LORD’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness. Leviticus 16 (New King James Version) 21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness. Now we all know that baptism is for the remission of sins now here is the mystery of the Baptism of Christ Luke 7 28 For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist;but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.” Matthew 3 (New King James Version) 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him. The baptism of John is for the remission of sin, there is no way getting around that but we know that Jesus did not sin so why be baptised? The answer is this: Jesus confessed the sins of the Children of Israel because he was anointed to do so and following that he was led out into the wilderness just as The Scapegoat is. Because of this Jesus was tempted of the devil as if he could be made to sin then his baptism would have been void but the most important part is that the scapegoat must be presented ALIVE before the LORD GOD if the scapegoat dies there is no living Sacrifice to bear the iniquities. Because if Jesus died he could not die again for any further sins. Plus keep in mind that Jesus was not sacrificed by God it is really a horrible thing to say or think God even says: Genesis 9:5-7 (New King James Version) 5 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man. 6 “ Whoever sheds man’s blood,      By man his blood shall be shed;      For in the image of God      He made man. Now in regards to your analogy you have a misunderstanding in it. There was a murder plot against JESUS one in which he sweated, wept and prayed to be spared from. He begged God to save him but said let it be your will. Now why would Jesus beg to be saved from “saving the world” as you say? Isn't it true what the scriptures say Luke 4:10-12 (New King James Version) 10 For it is written:      ‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,      To keep you,’ 11 and,      ‘ In their hands they shall bear you up,      Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’” Psalm 91:11-13 (New King James Version) 11 For He shall give His angels charge over you,         To keep you in all your ways. 12 In their hands they shall bear you up,         Lest you dash your foot against a stone. The magnitude of the story is much grander when you consider what God has really done and that is protect His anointed. If you say that the shedding of blood is required then you must also take that blood and spead it on the alter, is the cross the alter too? No, The Scapegoat is not killed and Jesus Christ was not killed nor crucified but was raised up Alive in the same flesh and blood he was born in. Now also to prove to you what I have said about the work of Jesus John 17:3-5 (New King James Version) 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. How could he have been finished the work he was given before the cross, before the shedding of blood? But there it is plain for you to see “I have finished” Jeremiah 26:14-16 (New King James Version) 14 As for me, here I am, in your hand; do with me as seems good and proper to you. 15 But know for certain that if you put me to death, you will surely bring innocent blood on yourselves, on this city, and on its inhabitants; for truly the LORD has sent me to you to speak all these words in your hearing.” 16 So the princes and all the people said to the priests and the prophets, “This man does not deserve to die. For he has spoken to us in the name of the LORD our God.” Jonah 1:13-15 (New King James Version) 14 Therefore they cried out to the LORD and said, “We pray, O LORD, please do not let us perish for this man’s life, and do not charge us with innocent blood; for You, O LORD, have done as it pleased You.” And to those men it appeared as though Jonas had perished but it pleased the Lord that Jonas be SAVED and for 3 days and 3 nights Jonah was in the belly of the great fish and did sweat, weep and pray Jonah 2 1 Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the fish’s belly. 2 And he said:      “ I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction,      And He answered me.      “ Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,      And You heard my voice.       3 For You cast me into the deep,      Into the heart of the seas,      And the floods surrounded me;      All Your billows and Your waves passed over me.       4 Then I said, ‘I have been cast out of Your sight;      Yet I will look again toward Your holy temple.’       5 The waters surrounded me, even to my soul;      The deep closed around me;      Weeds were wrapped around my head.       6 I went down to the moorings of the mountains;      The earth with its bars closed behind me forever;      Yet You have brought up my life from the pit,      O LORD, my God.       7 “ When my soul fainted within me,      I remembered the LORD;      And my prayer went up to You,      Into Your holy temple.       8 “ Those who regard worthless idols      Forsake their own Mercy.       9 But I will sacrifice to You      With the voice of thanksgiving;      I will pay what I have vowed.      Salvation is of the LORD.” he says I will sacrifice to you with the voice of thanksgiving and Jonah was spit out of the belly of the fish ALIVE, so for 3 days AND 3 nights JONAH was ALIVE. Jesus said that would be the only sign to that wicked and evil generation, he could have walked on water or healed some more people but Jesus says this is the ONLY sign and as you know if he was raised ON the third day then the sign of Jonah is not about the time otherwise he would have to be raised on the fourth day. Jesus makes it clear in the sign of Jonah he says 3 days and 3 nights so if he is raised before 3 days and 3 nights he is not talking about “time” concerning him but of Jonah so how else could he be as Jonah was? for he says: Matthew 12:39-41 (New King James Version) 39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. So Jesus wasn't in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights, he wasn't in the belly of a great fish so what could he mean as Jonah was Jonah was ALIVE Matthew 12:40-42 (New King James Version) 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. Now understand this wisdom and knowledge what is such wisdom that is greater than Solomon? 1 Kings 3:24-26 (King James Version) 24 And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king. 25 And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other. 26 Then spake the woman whose the living child was unto the king, for her bowels yearned upon her son, and she said, O my lord, give her the living child, and in no wise slay it. But the other said, Let it be neither mine nor thine, but divide it. 27 Then the king answered and said, Give her the living child, and in no wise slay it: she is the mother thereof. So this is Islam and Christianity 1 Kings 3 (King James Version) 22 And the other woman said, Nay; but the living is my son, and the dead is thy son. And this said, No; but the dead is thy son, and the living is my son. Thus they spake before the king. 23 Then said the king, The one saith, This is my son that liveth, and thy son is the dead: and the other saith, Nay; but thy son is the dead, and my son is the living. Islam would rather turn Jesus completely over than to slay him because we love Jesus and we Love God and know the SAVING power of GOD His arms are not too short to save nor does he need sacrifice Hosea 6:5-7 (King James Version) 5 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth. 6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings Matthew 12:6-8 (King James Version) 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. Jesus clearly shows here that they wanted to condemn him it was a murder plot and not a sacrifice by God but God is the best of those who plot and He outplotted them and SAVED Jesus and all those who believe in him.

Hi Bo,
You had a lengthy response there. I will address what comes to mind. If I miss something go ahead and let me know in a small post sort of way if you don't mind.

God hates sacrifice of humans in general…true. He only intended that for one human, not for any other. The thought of humans being sacrificed as a practi
ce apalled Him.

The three days and three nights bit comparing Jesus being in the heart of the earth just like Jonah was in the belly of the whale IS about a time period of three days and three nights. I believe that Jesus died probably on a Thursday and then Friday and Saturday were back to back Sabbath days, one was the Feast of unleavened bread and the other was the seventh day sabbath. Parts of days were counted as whole days.
Jesus died about 3 in the afternoon-(the first day dead),
the first night dead began at sunset-Thursday evening which was when Friday began for the Jewish calendar as I understand and all that night till dawn was the first night.
Then after dawn on Friday till sunset we have the second day.
Sunset Friday which is when Saturday began for the Jews till sunrise was the second night.
Then sunrise on Saturday till sunset Saturday evening which was when the first day of the week for the Jews began was the third day.
And then that leaves sunset to sunrise on the first day of the week to be the third night.
There you go, three days and three nights.

As far as the scapegoat goes, Jesus was never compared to a scapegoat as far as I know…He was the sacrificial lamb.

As far as Jesus being baptized, I believe that He was baptized to give baptism for the remission of sins credibility not because He needed remission of any sins. I believe that He was baptized as an example of what He wanted us to follow.

Regarding why Jesus prayed for His Father to remove this “cup” was because it was going to be very difficult and this shows His humanity. He truly felt pain, emotional and physical.

God did protect His anointed…He was raised up on the third day and lives forevermore.

Quote

John 17:3-5 (New King James Version) 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. How could he have been finished the work he was given before the cross, before the shedding of blood? But there it is plain for you to see “I have finished”

Regarding the above question, Christ was referring to the work that he accomplished during His walk among men on earth. That work was done and after that he had to face death. IMO

Thanks for the opportunity Bo,
Blessings to you,
Kathi

(Mandy thanks for the encouragement)

[Lightenup]

Bo,
I think that this passage would be good for you to carefully consider.

Heb 9:2-17
2 For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place. 3 Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, 4 having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail. 6 Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship, 7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, 9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation. 11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. 23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
NASU

Think it over Bo,
Kathi

[bodhitharta]

Quote (942767 @ July 17 2009,15:28)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2009,14:11) Quote (942767 @ July 17 2009,13:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2009,12:15) Quote (942767 @ July 17 2009,09:47) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,16:52) Quote (942767 @ July 16 2009,16:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,16:12) Quote (942767 @ July 16 2009,16:09) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,15:32) I find it interesting that when confronted with the very idea that Jesus was spared by God from being killed by way of crucifixion, Most get upset, so I would like to really know does your love for Jesus surpass your salvation? Hi BD:   Our love for Jesus is based on the fact that while we were yet sinners he died for us.  We could not have been saved if he had not done so, and therefore, we love him by obeying his commandments. Quote Rom 5:6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.   Rom 5:7   For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.   Rom 5:8   But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.   Rom 5:9   Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.   Rom 5:10   For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.   Love in Christ, Marty That was not the question Marty, Does your love for Jesus surpass your desire to be saved? If you could spare Jesus the Cross at your own expense would you do it? Would you suffer for your own sins that the innocent might escape punishment? Hi BD: I did not know about Jesus until God showed me how much he loved me.  Of course, I a sorry that he had to suffer as he did, but no, God could have stopped it, but this is only way that any one could be saved.  So, your question is a foolish question. Look at what Jesus told the Apostle Peter who did not believe Jesus when he was telling him what he had to suffer: Quote Mat 16:21 ¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.   Mat 16:22   Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.   Mat 16:23   But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.   Mat 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.   Mat 16:25   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.   Love in Christ, Marty Mat 16:25   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.   Yes but you want to be SAVED and I am willing to lose my salvation for the sake of Jesus whom I love and will never say he is or was a Curse. and you say that if Jesus didn't die for our sins no one would be saved but look: Mark 10 27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Surely the Spirit of God is with me tonight. Hi BD: You don't know what you are talking about when you say you would lose your salvation in order to spare Jesus what he went through.  There is no salvation apart from what God has done in the person of Jesus His Only Begotten Son and His Christ. God is a God of justice, and the wages of sin is death.  If we do not learn to overcome sin in the body of Christ, we are only in his house temporarily.  There will be no sin in the world to come. Quote Jhn 8:34   Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.   Jhn 8:35   And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever.   Jhn 8:36   If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.   All things are indeed possible with God, but His plan in the beginning was to make man in his own image, and this the fulfillment of this is accomplished in the body of Christ. Love in Christ, Marty Every one dies today even Christians, so what will you say now? that the scriptures speak of a spiritual death? Christ is not spiritually dead so he didn't spiritually die for our sins. So what will you say now? In what way did Christ take your place? Hi BD: This is what Jesus has to say on the subject of the resurrection: Quote Mat 22:31   But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,   Mat 22:32   I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.   Quote Jhn 11:25   Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:   Jhn 11:26   And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?   Yes, everyone including Christians die, but the soul of those who are serving God in Christ is alive to God.  The scripture states that the soul of the dead in Christ is asleep awaiting the 1st resurrection which is commonly referred to as the rapture. Jesus was delivered up to be crucified by the religious leaders in his time and was accused of blasphemy, and so, he was accursed in this condemnation.  He broke the law according to the religious leaders and the wages of sin is death which not only means the death of body but spiritual separation from God. Since all men have broken God's Law, all men who die in their sins are condemned by the law, but this is what the scripture states: Quote Gal 3:13   Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:   When he ascended into heaven into the holy of holies he is our high priest and mediator, because he lives to make intercession for us, when we come to God with a repentant heart through him, he can ask God to forgive us.  We all had a part in crucifying him through our sin. Love in Christ, Marty First of all I asked you in what way did Jesus Christ take your place? Second, How is Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac alive to God through Christ? Or How is it they are dead in Christ? Breaking the law according to religious leaders does not make you guilty Jesus even said that they were wrong condemning the innocent as guilty. Jesus did not sin so he could not have earned those wages and he certainly was not seperated from God who raised him up to Himself. How was Jesus seperated from God, he is at His right hand. In no way was Jesus cursed and neither is the law you quote Gal 3:13 and so I give you this from the same author: See and recognize truth 1 Corinthians 12:2-4 (King James Version) 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Psalm 19:6-8 (King James Version) 7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. Doesn't sound like a curse to me. It is amazing to me how you first thingk it is wonderful that someone died for you and then you say that the person became also a curse. Have you never really considered what you were saying or thinking. Even the person who wrote he became a curse said that no one speaketh by the spirit says that Christ is accursed but isn't that what he said? Hi BD: You ask: How did Christ take my place?  I have already answered your question, but study the following scriptures and maybe you will understand: Quote Hbr 9:6 ¶ Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God].   Hbr 9:7   But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people:   Hbr 9:8   The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:   Hbr 9:9   Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;   Hbr 9:10   [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.   Hbr 9:11 ¶ But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;   Hbr 9:12   Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].   Hbr 9:13   For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:   Hbr 9:14   How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?   Hbr 9:15   And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.   Hbr 9:16 ¶ For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.   Hbr 9:17   For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.   Hbr 9:18   Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood.   Hbr 9:19   For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,   Hbr 9:20   Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.   Hbr 9:21   Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.   Hbr 9:22   And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.   Hbr 9:23 ¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.   Hbr 9:24   For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:   Hbr 9:25   Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;   Hbr 9:26   For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.   Hbr 9:27   And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:   Hbr 9:28   So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.   You ask: Quote Second, How is Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac alive to God through Christ? O r How is it they are dead in Christ? Quote Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.   Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Gal 3:16   Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.   Gal 3:17   And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.   Gal 3:18   For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.   Gal 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.   Gal 3:20   Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.   Gal 3:21   [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.   Gal 3:22   But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.   Gal 3:23   But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.   Gal 3:24   Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Jhn 8:56   Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad. The blood that the Lord Jesus shed was the proptitiation for the sins of all who obeyed God prior to the ministry of Jesus and for all who come to God through him since his resurrection from the dead, and that is how Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive in Christ. I already discussed with you that Jesus was made a curse for us, but is not accursed from God now.  He died condemned by the religious leaders, but God raised him from dead declaring him not guilty. The laws of God are good, no doubt, but the curse is that we all have broken the law, and when you break the law there is a penalty to pay.  Here is what the Apostle Paul states about this: Quote Rom 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.   Rom 7:8   But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.   Rom 7:9   For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.   Rom 7:10   And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.   Rom 7:11   For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].   Rom 7:12   Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.   Rom 7:13 ¶ Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.   Rom 7:14   For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.   Rom 7:15   For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.   Rom 7:16   If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.   Rom 7:17   Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.   Rom 7:18   For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.   Rom 7:19   For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.   Rom 7:20   Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.   Rom 7:21   I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.   Rom 7:22   For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:   Rom 7:23   But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.   Rom 7:24   O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?   Rom 7:25   I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.   Love in Christ, Marty

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

There was never a time when there was no Faith, Moses had Faith, Joshua had Faith, David had Faith, Abraham had Faith, Noah had Faith. Faith came before the Law and you know this but you don't want to see the truth.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Jesus did not abolish the Law you know this but those who believe are part of a “foolish nation”

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Do you do what you hate to do?

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Is this similar to the person that says the devil made me do it? Does a blessed and sanctified man live like this?

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Do you see it this way? really?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This is like saying to your wife “I am having sex with this other woman but it is you I love”

I noticed you did not Quote Jesus once, why not?

Blood is not neccessary for atonement. Read all about it in Leviticus you will find the truth about the Scapegoat.

The Life is only in he blood of The Living.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 17 2009,16:05)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,12:46) Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2009,20:34) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 15 2009,23:32) I find it interesting that when confronted with the very idea that Jesus was spared by God from being killed by way of crucifixion, Most get upset, so I would like to really know does your love for Jesus surpass your salvation? Hi Bo, I do not think that people would get upset if Jesus was indeed spared by God from being killed by way of crucifixion if it truly was only His willingness to die that was needed for our salvation.  However, it was not only His willingness to die but actually the shedding of His blood and death that was required so that we could be cleansed by His blood.  To even think that we would be fit to take His place and be able to cleanse ourselves and others with our shed blood would be a grand error. We are blemished and He was not.  His blood satisfies, ours would not. I do not think that you realize that Jesus's shed blood and death was one of His major purposes for coming as a man.  If people are upset with those that believe there was no shed blood or death it is probably because they deny His greatest act due to love for us and obedience to His Father. John 13:6-8 6 So He came to Simon Peter. He said to Him, “Lord, do You wash my feet?” 7 Jesus answered and said to him, “What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter.” 8 Peter said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” NASU In the above passage Peter was trying to appear valiant and humble by refusing Jesus's service towards him.  That makes me think of your questions regarding our not allowing Jesus to die because we love Him and insisting that we die for our own sins.  I believe that Jesus's answer to us would be “If I do not wash you with MY blood, you have no part with Me.” Bo, your Islam religion denies one of the greatest acts that Jesus did, that is why people get upset…it is not because we want Him to suffer.  His shed blood and death makes Him our conquering hero who now lives again. If my son went to war and took a fatal bullet because he purposely put himself in front of another man which that bullet was intended for in order to protect the other man, well, don't you think that the fact that he died for another is an important part of the story that would go down in history.  Islam wants to water down the gallant act of Christ.  If you say that my son purposely put himself in front of another man and the bullet missed them both by a hair, yes that is still courageous and valiant but not as much as dying for the other man.  I know that is not a perfect comparison but hopefully you get the idea.  If my son died for another soldier and that other soldier didn't realize it and thought that my son just tripped and fell in front of him and accidently took the fatal bullet, the other soldier would have missed the magnitude of the sacrifice and its significance.  That is what I think Islam does…it misses the magnitude of the sacrifice and therefore its full significance. IMO Now, to answer your question…my love for Jesus allows His crucifixion to take place because otherwise I would be in the way of Him completing His mission. Blessings, Kathi I appreciate your well thought out post, however there are some questions I have for you. God forbids and hates human sacrifice, he prevented Abraham from taking the life of Isaac giving a substitute instead. Jeremiah 32 35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin God said that human sacrifice never even came to his mind Also, There is no need to shed blood for the atonement of sins in-fact all the sins of the people must be placed on the head of a living sacrifice referred to as the SCAPEGOAT and it must be presented ALIVE before GOD. Did you know that? Leviticus 16:9-11 (New King James Version) 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the LORD’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness. Leviticus 16 (New King James Version) 21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness. Now we all know that baptism is for the remission of sins now here is the mystery of the Baptism of Christ Luke 7 28 For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist;but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.” Matthew 3 (New King James Version) 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him. The baptism of John is for the remission of sin, there is no way getting around that but we know that Jesus did not sin so why be baptised? The answer is this: Jesus confessed the sins of the Children of Israel because he was anointed to do so and following that he was led out into the wilderness just as The Scapegoat is. Because of this Jesus was tempted of the devil as if he could be made to sin then his baptism would have been void but the most important part is that the scapegoat must be presented ALIVE before the LORD GOD if the scapegoat dies there is no living Sacrifice to bear the iniquities. Because if Jesus died he could not die again for any further sins. Plus keep in mind that Jesus was not sacrificed by God it is really a horrible thing to say or think God even says: Genesis 9:5-7 (New King James Version) 5 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man. 6 “ Whoever sheds man’s blood,      By man his blood shall be shed;      For in the image of God      He made man. Now in regards to your analogy you have a misunderstanding in it. There was a murder plot against JESUS one in which he sweated, wept and prayed to be spared from. He begged God to save him but said let it be your will. Now why would Jesus beg to be saved from “saving the world” as you say? Isn't it true what the scriptures say Luke 4:10-12 (New King James Version) 10 For it is written:      ‘ He shall give His angels charge over yo u,      To keep you,’ 11 and,      ‘ In their hands they shall bear you up,      Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’” Psalm 91:11-13 (New King James Version) 11 For He shall give His angels charge over you,         To keep you in all your ways. 12 In their hands they shall bear you up,         Lest you dash your foot against a stone. The magnitude of the story is much grander when you consider what God has really done and that is protect His anointed. If you say that the shedding of blood is required then you must also take that blood and spead it on the alter, is the cross the alter too? No, The Scapegoat is not killed and Jesus Christ was not killed nor crucified but was raised up Alive in the same flesh and blood he was born in. Now also to prove to you what I have said about the work of Jesus John 17:3-5 (New King James Version) 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. How could he have been finished the work he was given before the cross, before the shedding of blood? But there it is plain for you to see “I have finished” Jeremiah 26:14-16 (New King James Version) 14 As for me, here I am, in your hand; do with me as seems good and proper to you. 15 But know for certain that if you put me to death, you will surely bring innocent blood on yourselves, on this city, and on its inhabitants; for truly the LORD has sent me to you to speak all these words in your hearing.” 16 So the princes and all the people said to the priests and the prophets, “This man does not deserve to die. For he has spoken to us in the name of the LORD our God.” Jonah 1:13-15 (New King James Version) 14 Therefore they cried out to the LORD and said, “We pray, O LORD, please do not let us perish for this man’s life, and do not charge us with innocent blood; for You, O LORD, have done as it pleased You.” And to those men it appeared as though Jonas had perished but it pleased the Lord that Jonas be SAVED and for 3 days and 3 nights Jonah was in the belly of the great fish and did sweat, weep and pray Jonah 2 1 Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the fish’s belly. 2 And he said:      “ I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction,      And He answered me.      “ Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,      And You heard my voice.       3 For You cast me into the deep,      Into the heart of the seas,      And the floods surrounded me;      All Your billows and Your waves passed over me.       4 Then I said, ‘I have been cast out of Your sight;      Yet I will look again toward Your holy temple.’       5 The waters surrounded me, even to my soul;      The deep closed around me;      Weeds were wrapped around my head.       6 I went down to the moorings of the mountains;      The earth with its bars closed behind me forever;      Yet You have brought up my life from the pit,      O LORD, my God.       7 “ When my soul fainted within me,      I remembered the LORD;      And my prayer went up to You,      Into Your holy temple.       8 “ Those who regard worthless idols      Forsake their own Mercy.       9 But I will sacrifice to You      With the voice of thanksgiving;      I will pay what I have vowed.      Salvation is of the LORD.” he says I will sacrifice to you with the voice of thanksgiving and Jonah was spit out of the belly of the fish ALIVE, so for 3 days AND 3 nights JONAH was ALIVE. Jesus said that would be the only sign to that wicked and evil generation, he could have walked on water or healed some more people but Jesus says this is the ONLY sign and as you know if he was raised ON the third day then the sign of Jonah is not about the time otherwise he would have to be raised on the fourth day. Jesus makes it clear in the sign of Jonah he says 3 days and 3 nights so if he is raised before 3 days and 3 nights he is not talking about “time” concerning him but of Jonah so how else could he be as Jonah was? for he says: Matthew 12:39-41 (New King James Version) 39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. So Jesus wasn't in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights, he wasn't in the belly of a great fish so what could he mean as Jonah was Jonah was ALIVE Matthew 12:40-42 (New King James Version) 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. Now understand this wisdom and knowledge what is such wisdom that is greater than Solomon? 1 Kings 3:24-26 (King James Version) 24 And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king. 25 And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other. 26 Then spake the woman whose the living child was unto the king, for her bowels yearned upon her son, and she said, O my lord, give her the living child, and in no wise slay it. But the other said, Let it be neither mine nor thine, but divide it. 27 Then the king answered and said, Give her the living child, and in no wise slay it: she is the mother thereof. So this is Islam and Christianity 1 Kings 3 (King James Version) 22 And the other woman said, Nay; but the living is my son, and the dead is thy son. And this said, No; but the dead is thy son, and the living is my son. Thus they spake before the king. 23 Then said the king, The one saith, This is my son that liveth, and thy son is the dead: and the other saith, Nay; but thy son is the dead, and my son is the living. Islam would rather turn Jesus completely over than to slay him because we love Jesus and we Love God and know the SAVING power of GOD His arms are not too short to save nor does he need sacrifice Hosea 6:5-7 (King James Version) 5 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth. 6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings Matthew 12:6-8 (King James Version) 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. Jesus clearly shows here that they wanted to condemn him it was a murder plot and not a sacrifice by God but God is the best of those who plot and He outplotted them and SAVED Jesus and all those who believe in him. Hi Bo, You had a lengthy response there.  I will address what comes to mind.  If I miss something go ahead and let me know in a small post so rt of way if you don't mind. God hates sacrifice of humans in general…true.  He only intended that for one human, not for any other.  The thought of humans being sacrificed as a practice apalled Him. The three days and three nights bit comparing Jesus being in the heart of the earth just like Jonah was in the belly of the whale IS about a time period of three days and three nights.  I believe that Jesus died probably on a Thursday and then Friday and Saturday were back to back Sabbath days, one was the Feast of unleavened bread and the other was the seventh day sabbath.  Parts of days were counted as whole days.   Jesus died about 3 in the afternoon-(the first day dead), the first night dead began at sunset-Thursday evening which was when Friday began for the Jewish calendar as I understand and all that night till dawn was the first night.   Then after dawn on Friday till sunset we have the second day.   Sunset Friday which is when Saturday began for the Jews till sunrise was the second night.   Then sunrise on Saturday till sunset Saturday evening which was when the first day of the week for the Jews began was the third day.   And then that leaves sunset to sunrise on the first day of the week to be the third night. There you go, three days and three nights. As far as the scapegoat goes, Jesus was never compared to a scapegoat as far as I know…He was the sacrificial lamb. As far as Jesus being baptized, I believe that He was baptized to give baptism for the remission of sins credibility not because He needed remission of any sins.  I believe that He was baptized as an example of what He wanted us to follow. Regarding why Jesus prayed for His Father to remove this “cup” was because it was going to be very difficult and this shows His humanity.  He truly felt pain, emotional and physical. God did protect His anointed…He was raised up on the third day and lives forevermore. Quote John 17:3-5 (New King James Version) 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. How could he have been finished the work he was given before the cross, before the shedding of blood? But there it is plain for you to see “I have finished” Regarding the above question, Christ was referring to the work that he accomplished during His walk among men on earth.  That work was done and after that he had to face death. IMO Thanks for the opportunity Bo, Blessings to you, Kathi (Mandy thanks for the encouragement)

You admit God hates Sacrifice and God even says:

Malachi 3:16-18 (King James Version)

17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

But yet you believe he wouldn't spare his own son.

Plus God said not only he hates Human Sacrifice(especially of ones own child) but he insists that he did not command it nor did it ever come to his mind. How could he have intended to sacrifice his own son if he never even thought of it?

Jesus said 3 days and 3 nights that is pretty clear he didn't get in the tomb till sundown as they had to rush. The woman followed them and saw where the body was laid and it says in mark

42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.

44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.

45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.

46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.

47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.

Mark 16
1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

You'll never get 3 days and 3 night out of that it clearly says it was a preparation day they followed and saw where he was laid went home for the Sabbath and came back 1 1/2 days tops.

If he was raised on the third day then referring to Jonah he was not talking about time. So either he was raised on the third day or he was raised after 3 days and 3 nights.

So are you saying that Jesus confessed sins just to give it credence? Couldn't he have simply said John you are doing a good thing? It is for the remission of sins and when he got baptized the Holy Spirit came down upon him and led him into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. You think he did all that as an example?…lol…lol Come on!

Thanks kathi, God bless you always!

[NickHassan]

All theory BD,
Why not come on board and start to see the kingdom?

[Lightenup]

Bo,
First of all, I find it very distasteful when people “LOL” at others beliefs, FYI.

Second of all, where does it say in the Bible that Jesus confessed His sins? He did other things along with baptism to demonstrate the ordinance and not necessarily because He needed to do it like we do, i.e. He demonstrated communion. He demonstrated communion not so He could remember His giving of His body and blood but to establish an ordinance for the believers to follow.

Third of all, do you realize that evening begins before sundown and the sabbath begins at sundown. Therefore, Jesus was put in the tomb before sundown while it was still day which can count as day 1 in the grave. He had to get in the tomb before sundown because the sabbath had not begun yet. Also, did you realize that there is a non-seventh day sabbath during passover week? It falls on the Feast of Unleavened Bread which began at sundown the night after Jesus died if I remember right. With two sabbath days back to back and then Jesus being put into the tomb before sunset, you have 3 days and 3 nights.

Also, you said:

Quote

But yet you believe he wouldn't spare his own son.

read this:
Rom 8:32
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
NASU

God bless u 2,
Kathi

[942767]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2009,16:39)

Quote (942767 @ July 17 2009,15:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2009,14:11) Quote (942767 @ July 17 2009,13:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2009,12:15) Quote (942767 @ July 17 2009,09:47) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,16:52) Quote (942767 @ July 16 2009,16:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,16:12) Quote (942767 @ July 16 2009,16:09) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,15:32) I find it interesting that when confronted with the very idea that Jesus was spared by God from being killed by way of crucifixion, Most get upset, so I would like to really know does your love for Jesus surpass your salvation? Hi BD:   Our love for Jesus is based on the fact that while we were yet sinners he died for us.  We could not have been saved if he had not done so, and therefore, we love him by obeying his commandments. Quote Rom 5:6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.   Rom 5:7   For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.   Rom 5:8   But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.   Rom 5:9   Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.   Rom 5:10   For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.   Love in Christ, Marty That was not the question Marty, Does your love for Jesus surpass your desire to be saved? If you could spare Jesus the Cross at your own expense would you do it? Would you suffer for your own sins that the innocent might escape punishment? Hi BD: I did not know about Jesus until God showed me how much he loved me.  Of course, I a sorry that he had to suffer as he did, but no, God could have stopped it, but this is only way that any one could be saved.  So, your question is a foolish question. Look at what Jesus told the Apostle Peter who did not believe Jesus when he was telling him what he had to suffer: Quote Mat 16:21 ¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.   Mat 16:22   Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.   Mat 16:23   But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.   Mat 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.   Mat 16:25   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.   Love in Christ, Marty Mat 16:25   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.   Yes but you want to be SAVED and I am willing to lose my salvation for the sake of Jesus whom I love and will never say he is or was a Curse. and you say that if Jesus didn't die for our sins no one would be saved but look: Mark 10 27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Surely the Spirit of God is with me tonight. Hi BD: You don't know what you are talking about when you say you would lose your salvation in order to spare Jesus what he went through.  There is no salvation apart from what God has done in the person of Jesus His Only Begotten Son and His Christ. God is a God of justice, and the wages of sin is death.  If we do not learn to overcome sin in the body of Christ, we are only in his house temporarily.  There will be no sin in the world to come. Quote Jhn 8:34   Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.   Jhn 8:35   And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever.   Jhn 8:36   If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.   All things are indeed possible with God, but His plan in the beginning was to make man in his own image, and this the fulfillment of this is accomplished in the body of Christ. Love in Christ, Marty Every one dies today even Christians, so what will you say now? that the scriptures speak of a spiritual death? Christ is not spiritually dead so he didn't spiritually die for our sins. So what will you say now? In what way did Christ take your place? Hi BD: This is what Jesus has to say on the subject of the resurrection: Quot e Mat 22:31   But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,   Mat 22:32   I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.   Quote Jhn 11:25   Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:   Jhn 11:26   And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?   Yes, everyone including Christians die, but the soul of those who are serving God in Christ is alive to God.  The scripture states that the soul of the dead in Christ is asleep awaiting the 1st resurrection which is commonly referred to as the rapture. Jesus was delivered up to be crucified by the religious leaders in his time and was accused of blasphemy, and so, he was accursed in this condemnation.  He broke the law according to the religious leaders and the wages of sin is death which not only means the death of body but spiritual separation from God. Since all men have broken God's Law, all men who die in their sins are condemned by the law, but this is what the scripture states: Quote Gal 3:13   Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:   When he ascended into heaven into the holy of holies he is our high priest and mediator, because he lives to make intercession for us, when we come to God with a repentant heart through him, he can ask God to forgive us.  We all had a part in crucifying him through our sin. Love in Christ, Marty First of all I asked you in what way did Jesus Christ take your place? Second, How is Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac alive to God through Christ? Or How is it they are dead in Christ? Breaking the law according to religious leaders does not make you guilty Jesus even said that they were wrong condemning the innocent as guilty. Jesus did not sin so he could not have earned those wages and he certainly was not seperated from God who raised him up to Himself. How was Jesus seperated from God, he is at His right hand. In no way was Jesus cursed and neither is the law you quote Gal 3:13 and so I give you this from the same author: See and recognize truth 1 Corinthians 12:2-4 (King James Version) 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Psalm 19:6-8 (King James Version) 7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. Doesn't sound like a curse to me. It is amazing to me how you first thingk it is wonderful that someone died for you and then you say that the person became also a curse. Have you never really considered what you were saying or thinking. Even the person who wrote he became a curse said that no one speaketh by the spirit says that Christ is accursed but isn't that what he said? Hi BD: You ask: How did Christ take my place?  I have already answered your question, but study the following scriptures and maybe you will understand: Quote Hbr 9:6 ¶ Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God].   Hbr 9:7   But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people:   Hbr 9:8   The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:   Hbr 9:9   Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;   Hbr 9:10   [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.   Hbr 9:11 ¶ But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;   Hbr 9:12   Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].   Hbr 9:13   For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:   Hbr 9:14   How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?   Hbr 9:15   And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.   Hbr 9:16 ¶ For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.   Hbr 9:17   For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.   Hbr 9:18   Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood.   Hbr 9:19   For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,   Hbr 9:20   Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.   Hbr 9:21   Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.   Hbr 9:22   And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.   Hbr 9:23 ¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.   Hbr 9:24   For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:   Hbr 9:25   Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;   Hbr 9:26   For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.   Hbr 9:27   And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:   Hbr 9:28   So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.   You ask: Quote Second, How is Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac alive to God through Christ? Or How is it they are dead in Christ? Quote Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.   Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Gal 3:16   Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.   Gal 3:17   And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.   Gal 3:18   For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.   Gal 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.   Gal 3:20   Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.   Gal 3:21   [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.   Gal 3:22   But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.   Gal 3:23   But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.   Gal 3:24   Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Jhn 8:56   Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad. The blood that the Lord Jesus shed was the proptitiation for the sins of all who obeyed God prior to the ministry of Jesus and for all who come to God through him since his resurrection from the dead, and that is how Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive in Christ. I already discussed with you that Jesus was made a curse for us, but is not accursed from God now.  He died condemned by the religious leaders, but God raised him from dead declaring him not guilty. The laws of God are good, no doubt, but the curse is that we all have broken the law, and when you break the law there is a penalty to pay.  Here is what the Apostle Paul states about this: Quote Rom 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.   Rom 7:8   But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.   Rom 7:9   For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.   Rom 7:10   And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.   Rom 7:11   For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].   Rom 7:12   Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.   Rom 7:13 ¶ Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.   Rom 7:14   For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.   Rom 7:15   For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.   Rom 7:16   If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.   Rom 7:17   Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.   Rom 7:18   For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.   Rom 7:19   For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.   Rom 7:20   Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.   Rom 7:21   I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.   Rom 7:22   For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:   Rom 7:23   But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.   Rom 7:24   O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?   Rom 7:25   I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.   Love in Christ, Marty Gal 3:23   But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.   There was never a time when there was no Faith, Moses had Faith, Joshua had Faith, David had Faith, Abraham had Faith, Noah had Faith. Faith came before the Law and you know this but you don't want to see the truth. Rom 7:12   Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.   Jesus did not abolish the Law you know this but those who believe are part of a “foolish nation” Rom 7:15   For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.   Do you do what you hate to do? Rom 7:17   Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.   Is this similar to the person that says the devil made me do it? Does a blessed and sanctified man live like this? Rom 7:21   I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.   Do you see it this way? really? Rom 7:25   I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. This is like saying to your wife “I am having sex with this other woman but it is you I love” I noticed you did not Quote Jesus once, why not? Blood is not neccessary for atonement. Read all about it in Leviticus you will find the truth about the Scapegoat. The Life is only in he blood of The Living.

Hi BD

Of course, there were always men like Noah, and Abraham, and those under the law who had faith, but the Apostle Paul is speaking about faith in what God has done for humanity in the person of Jesus Christ.

Salvation is not based upon perfect obedience to the Law. We all have sinned (sin is the transgression of the law). If salvation was based upon our obedience to the Law, it would be based on works and not upon faith in what God has done for us through Jesus.

Quote

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

And I am not under the law, but Jesus fulfilled the law, and by obedience to the commandments that have come to humanity from God through him, and the blood that was shed for me to cleanse me of sin when I fall short, I also fulfill the law. Love is the fulfillment of the law.

Quote

Romans 8 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 17 2009,18:17)

Bo, First of all, I find it very distasteful when people “LOL” at others beliefs, FYI. Second of all, where does it say in the Bible that Jesus confessed His sins?  He did other things along with baptism to demonstrate the ordinance and not necessarily because He needed to do it like we do, i.e. He demonstrated communion.  He demonstrated communion not so He could remember His giving of His body and blood but to establish an ordinance for the believers to follow.   Third of all, do you realize that evening begins before sundown and the sabbath begins at sundown.  Therefore, Jesus was put in the tomb before sundown while it was still day which can count as day 1 in the grave.  He had to get in the tomb before sundown because the sabbath had not begun yet.  Also, did you realize that there is a non-seventh day sabbath during passover week?  It falls on the Feast of Unleavened Bread which began at sundown the night after Jesus died if I remember right.  With two sabbath days back to back and then Jesus being put into the tomb before sunset, you have 3 days and 3 nights. Also, you said: Quote But yet you believe he wouldn't spare his own son. read this: Rom 8:32 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? NASU God bless u 2, Kathi

I wasn't laughing to be mean or condescending so I aplogize. When writing it's hard to express your emotions so I thought I would be lighthearted in my response but I guess it came across in a way that I didn't want it to, so once again please accept my sincerest apology.

Okay, Now… I did n't say Jesus confessed “his” sins. I said he confessed the sins of Israel and repented for Israel as Christ.

I myself keep the sabbath and it occurs at sundown and evening is sundown.

But as I said if Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights then he did not raise on the third day because it would have been the fourth day.

In regards to Romans 8:32 you will have to reconcile that with the verse I gave you in Malachi that said “God said” He wil spare them like a SON WHO SERVES HIM.

God bless you and God willing you will forgive me.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (942767 @ July 18 2009,11:29)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2009,16:39) Quote (942767 @ July 17 2009,15:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2009,14:11) Quote (942767 @ July 17 2009,13:51) Hi BD: This is what Jesus has to say on the subject of the resurrection: Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2009,12:15) Quote (942767 @ July 17 2009,09:47) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,16:52) Quote (942767 @ July 16 2009,16:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,16:12) Quote (942767 @ July 16 2009,16:09) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,15:32) I find it interesting that when confronted with the very idea that Jesus was spared by God from being killed by way of crucifixion, Most get upset, so I would like to really know does your love for Jesus surpass your salvation? Hi BD:   Our love for Jesus is based on the fact that while we were yet sinners he died for us.  We could not have been saved if he had not done so, and therefore, we love him by obeying his commandments. Quote Rom 5:6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.   Rom 5:7   For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.   Rom 5:8   But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.   Rom 5:9   Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.   Rom 5:10   For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.   Love in Christ, Marty That was not the question Marty, Does your love for Jesus surpass your desire to be saved? If you could spare Jesus the Cross at your own expense would you do it? Would you suffer for your own sins that the innocent might escape punishment? Hi BD: I did not know about Jesus until God showed me how much he loved me.  Of course, I a sorry that he had to suffer as he did, but no, God could have stopped it, but this is only way that any one could be saved.  So, your question is a foolish question. Look at what Jesus told the Apostle Peter who did not believe Jesus when he was telling him what he had to suffer: Quote Mat 16:21 ¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.   Mat 16:22   Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.   Mat 16:23   But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.   Mat 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.   Mat 16:25   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.   Love in Christ, Marty Mat 16:25   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.   Yes but you want to be SAVED and I am willing to lose my salvation for the sake of Jesus whom I love and will never say he is or was a Curse. and you say that if Jesus didn't die for our sins no one would be saved but look: Mark 10 27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Surely the Spirit of God is with me tonight. Hi BD: You don't know what you are talking about when you say you would lose your salvation in order to spare Jesus what he went through.  There is no salvation apart from what God has done in the person of Jesus His Only Begotten Son and His Christ. God is a God of justice, and the wages of sin is death.  If we do not learn to overcome sin in the body of Christ, we are only in his house temporarily.  There will be no sin in the world to come. Quote Jhn 8:34   Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.   Jhn 8:35   And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever.   Jhn 8:36   If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.   All things are indeed possible with God, but His plan in the beginning was to make man in his own image, and this the fulfillment of this is accomplished in the body of Christ. Love in Christ, Marty Every one dies today even Christians, so what will you say now? that the scriptures speak of a spiritual death? Christ is not spiritually dead so he didn't spiritually die for our sins. So what will you say now? In what way did Christ take your place? Quote Mat 22:31   But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,   Mat 22:32   I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.   Quote Jhn 11:25   Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:   Jhn 11:26   And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?   Yes, everyone including Christians die, but the soul of those who are serving God in Christ is alive to God.  The scripture states that the soul of the dead in Christ is asleep awaiting the 1st resurrection which is commonly referred to as the rapture. Jesus was delivered up to be crucified by the religious leaders in his time and was accused of blasphemy, and so, he was accursed in this condemnation.  He broke the law according to the religious leaders and the wages of sin is death which not only means the death of body but spiritual separation from God. Since all men have broken God's Law, all men who die in their sins are condemned by the law, but this is what the scripture states: Quote Gal 3:13   Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:   When he ascended into heaven into the holy of holies he is our high priest and mediator, because he lives to make intercession for us, when we come to God with a repentant heart through him, he can ask God to forgive us.  We all had a part in crucifying him through our sin. Love in Christ, Marty First of all I asked you in what way did Jesus Christ take your place? Second, How is Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac alive to God through Christ? Or How is it they are dead in Christ? Breaking the law according to religious leaders does not make you guilty Jesus even said that they were wrong condemning the innocent as guilty. Jesus did not sin so he could not have earned those wages and he certainly was not seperated from God who raised him up to Himself. How was Jesus seperated from God, he is at His right hand. In no way was Jesus cursed and neither is the law you quote Gal 3:13 and so I give you this from the same author: See and recognize truth 1 Corinthians 12:2-4 (King James Version) 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Psalm 19:6-8 (King James Version) 7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. Doesn't sound like a curse to me. It is amazing to me how you first thingk it is wonderful that someone died for you and then you say that the person became also a curse. Have you never really considered what you were saying or thinking. Even the person who wrote he became a curse said that no one speaketh by the spirit says that Christ is accursed but isn't that what he said? Hi BD: You ask: How did Christ take my place?  I have already answered your question, but study the following scriptures and maybe you will understand: Quote Hbr 9:6 ¶ Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God].   Hbr 9:7   But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people:   Hbr 9:8   The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:   Hbr 9:9   Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;   Hbr 9:10   [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.   Hbr 9:11 ¶ But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;   Hbr 9:12   Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].   Hbr 9:13   For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:   Hbr 9:14   How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?   Hbr 9:15   And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.   Hbr 9:16 ¶ For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.   Hbr 9:17   For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.   Hbr 9:18   Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood.   Hbr 9:19   For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,   Hbr 9:20   Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.   Hbr 9:21   Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.   Hbr 9:22   And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.   Hbr 9:23 ¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.   Hbr 9:24   For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:   Hbr 9:25   Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;   Hbr 9:26   For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.   Hbr 9:27   And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:   Hbr 9:28   So Christ w as once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.   You ask: Quote Second, How is Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac alive to God through Christ? Or How is it they are dead in Christ? Quote Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.   Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Gal 3:16   Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.   Gal 3:17   And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.   Gal 3:18   For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.   Gal 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.   Gal 3:20   Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.   Gal 3:21   [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.   Gal 3:22   But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.   Gal 3:23   But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.   Gal 3:24   Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Jhn 8:56   Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad. The blood that the Lord Jesus shed was the proptitiation for the sins of all who obeyed God prior to the ministry of Jesus and for all who come to God through him since his resurrection from the dead, and that is how Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive in Christ. I already discussed with you that Jesus was made a curse for us, but is not accursed from God now.  He died condemned by the religious leaders, but God raised him from dead declaring him not guilty. The laws of God are good, no doubt, but the curse is that we all have broken the law, and when you break the law there is a penalty to pay.  Here is what the Apostle Paul states about this: Quote Rom 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.   Rom 7:8   But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.   Rom 7:9   For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.   Rom 7:10   And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.   Rom 7:11   For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].   Rom 7:12   Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.   Rom 7:13 ¶ Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.   Rom 7:14   For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.   Rom 7:15   For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.   Rom 7:16   If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.   Rom 7:17   Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.   Rom 7:18   For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.   Rom 7:19   For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.   Rom 7:20   Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.   Rom 7:21   I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.   Rom 7:22   For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:   Rom 7:23   But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.   Rom 7:24   O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?   Rom 7:25   I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.   Love in Christ, Marty Gal 3:23   But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.   There was never a time when there was no Faith, Moses had Faith, Joshua had Faith, David had Faith, Abraham had Faith, Noah had Faith. Faith came before the Law and you know this but you don't want to see the truth. Rom 7:12   Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.   Jesus did not abolish the Law you know this but those who believe are part of a “foolish nation” Rom 7:15   For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.   Do you do what you hate to do? Rom 7:17   Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.   Is this similar to the person that says the devil made me do it? Does a blessed and sanctified man live like this? Rom 7:21   I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.   Do you see it this way? really? Rom 7:25   I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. This is like saying to your wife “I am having sex with this other woman but it is you I love” I noticed you did not Quote Jesus once, why not? Blood is not neccessary for atonement. Read all about it in Leviticus you will find the truth about the Scapegoat. The Life is only in he blood of The Living. Hi BD Of course, there were always men like Noah, and Abraham, and those under the law who had faith, but the Apostle Paul is speaking about faith in what God has done for humanity in the person of Jesus Christ. Salvation is not based upon perfect obedience to the Law.  We all have sinned (sin is the transgression of the law).  If salvation was based upon our obedience to the Law, it would be based on works and not upon faith in what God has done for us through Jesus. Quote 19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. And I am not under the law, but Jesus fulfilled the law, and by obedience to the commandments that have come to humanity from God through him, and the blood that was shed for me to cleanse me of sin when I fall short, I also fulfill the law.  Love is the fulfillment of the law. Quote Romans 8 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Love in Christ, Marty

When you say Jesus fulfilled the law in what way does that have to do with ending the law? To fulfill the law is to do the law. Also do you understand that the TORAH is not “LAW” like we see it The Torah is translated as to mean THE TEACHINGS.

[942767]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 18 2009,12:33)

Quote (942767 @ July 18 2009,11:29) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2009,16:39) Quote (942767 @ July 17 2009,15:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2009,14:11) Quote (942767 @ July 17 2009,13:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2009,12:15) Quote (942767 @ July 17 2009,09:47) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,16:52) Quote (942767 @ July 16 2009,16:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,16:12) Quote (942767 @ July 16 2009,16:09) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,15:32) I find it interesting that when confronted with the very idea that Jesus was spared by God from being killed by way of crucifixion, Most get upset, so I would like to really know does your love for Jesus surpass your salvation? Hi BD:   Our love for Jesus is based on the fact that while we were yet sinners he died for us.  We could not have been saved if he had not done so, and therefore, we love him by obeying his commandments. Quote Rom 5:6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.   Rom 5:7   For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.   Rom 5:8   But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.   Rom 5:9   Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.   Rom 5:10   For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.   Love in Christ, Marty That was not the question Marty, Does your love for Jesus surpass your desire to be saved? If you could spare Jesus the Cross at your own expense would you do it? Would you suffer for your own sins that the innocent might escape punishment? Hi BD: I did not know about Jesus until God showed me how much he loved me.  Of course, I a sorry that he had to suffer as he did, but no, God could have stopped it, but this is only way that any one could be saved.  So, your question is a foolish question. Look at what Jesus told the Apostle Peter who did not believe Jesus when he was telling him what he had to suffer: Quote Mat 16:21 ¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.   Mat 16:22   Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.   Mat 16:23   But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.   Mat 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.   Mat 16:25   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.   Love in Christ, Marty Mat 16:25   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.   Yes but you want to be SAVED and I am willing to lose my salvation for the sake of Jesus whom I love and will never say he is or was a Curse. and you say that if Jesus didn't die for our sins no one would be saved but look: Mark 10 27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Surely the Spirit of God is with me tonight. Hi BD: You don't know what you are talking about when you say you would lose your salvation in order to spare Jesus what he went through.  There is no salvation apart from what God has done in the person of Jesus His Only Begotten Son and His Christ. God is a God of justice, and the wages of sin is death.  If we do not learn to overcome sin in the body of Christ, we are only in his house temporarily.  There will be no sin in the world to come. Quote Jhn 8:34   Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.   Jhn 8:35   And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever.   Jhn 8:36   If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.   All things are indeed possible with God, but His plan in the beginning was to make man in his own image, and this the fulfillment of this is accomplished in the body of Christ. Love in Christ, Marty Every one dies today even Christians, so what will you say now? that the scriptures speak of a spiritual death? Christ is not spiritually dead so he didn't spiritually die for our sins. So what will you say now? In what way did Christ take your place? Hi BD: This is what Jesus has to say on the subject of the resurrection: Quote Mat 22:31   But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,   Mat 22:32   I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.   Quote Jhn 11:25   Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:   Jhn 11:26   And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?   Yes, everyone including Christians die, but the soul of those who are serving God in Christ is alive to God.  The scripture states that the soul of the dead in Christ is asleep awaiting the 1st resurrection which is commonly referred to as the rapture. Jesus was delivered up to be crucified by the religious leaders in his time and was accused of blasphemy, and so, he was accursed in this condemnation.  He broke the law according to the religious leaders and the wages of sin is death which not only means the death of body but spiritual separation from God. Since all men have broken God's Law, all men who die in their sins are condemned by the law, but this is what the scripture states: Quote Gal 3:13   Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:   When he ascended into heaven into the holy of holies he is our high priest and mediator, because he lives to make intercession for us, when we come to God with a repentant heart through him, he can ask God to forgive us.  We all had a part in crucifying him through our sin. Love in Christ, Marty First of all I asked you in what way did Jesus Christ take your place? Second, How is Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac alive to God through Christ? Or How is it they are dead in Christ? Breaking the law according to religious leaders does not make you guilty Jesus even said that they were wrong condemning the innocent as guilty. Jesus did not sin so he could not have earned those wages and he certainly was not seperated from God who raised him up to Himself. How was Jesus seperated from God, he is at His right hand. In no way was Jesus cursed and neither is the law you quote Gal 3:13 and so I give you this from the same author: See and recognize truth 1 Corinthians 12:2-4 (King James Version) 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Psalm 19:6-8 (King James Version) 7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. Doesn't sound like a curse to me. It is amazing to me how you first thingk it is wonderful that someone died for you and then you say that the person became also a curse. Have you never really considered what you were saying or thinking. Even the person who wrote he became a curse said that no one speaketh by the spirit says that Christ is accursed but isn't that what he said? Hi BD: You ask: How did Christ take my place?  I have already answered your question, but study the following scriptures and maybe you will understand: Quote Hbr 9:6 ¶ Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God].   Hbr 9:7   But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people:   Hbr 9:8   The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:   Hbr 9:9   Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;   Hbr 9:10   [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.   Hbr 9:11 ¶ But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;   Hbr 9:12   Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].   Hbr 9:13   For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:   Hbr 9:14   How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?   Hbr 9:15   And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.   Hbr 9:16 ¶ For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.   Hbr 9:17   For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.   Hbr 9:18   Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood.   Hbr 9:19   For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,   Hbr 9:20   Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.   Hbr 9:21   Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.   Hbr 9:22   And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.   Hbr 9:23 ¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.   Hbr 9:24   For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:   Hbr 9:25   Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;   Hbr 9:26   For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now on ce in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.   Hbr 9:27   And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:   Hbr 9:28   So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.   You ask: Quote Second, How is Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac alive to God through Christ? Or How is it they are dead in Christ? Quote Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.   Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Gal 3:16   Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.   Gal 3:17   And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.   Gal 3:18   For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.   Gal 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.   Gal 3:20   Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.   Gal 3:21   [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.   Gal 3:22   But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.   Gal 3:23   But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.   Gal 3:24   Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Jhn 8:56   Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad. The blood that the Lord Jesus shed was the proptitiation for the sins of all who obeyed God prior to the ministry of Jesus and for all who come to God through him since his resurrection from the dead, and that is how Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive in Christ. I already discussed with you that Jesus was made a curse for us, but is not accursed from God now.  He died condemned by the religious leaders, but God raised him from dead declaring him not guilty. The laws of God are good, no doubt, but the curse is that we all have broken the law, and when you break the law there is a penalty to pay.  Here is what the Apostle Paul states about this: Quote Rom 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.   Rom 7:8   But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.   Rom 7:9   For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.   Rom 7:10   And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.   Rom 7:11   For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].   Rom 7:12   Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.   Rom 7:13 ¶ Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.   Rom 7:14   For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.   Rom 7:15   For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.   Rom 7:16   If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.   Rom 7:17   Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.   Rom 7:18   For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.   Rom 7:19   For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.   Rom 7:20   Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.   Rom 7:21   I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.   Rom 7:22   For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:   Rom 7:23   But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.   Rom 7:24   O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?   Rom 7:25   I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.   Love in Christ, Marty Gal 3:23   But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.   There was never a time when there was no Faith, Moses had Faith, Joshua had Faith, David had Faith, Abraham had Faith, Noah had Faith. Faith came before the Law and you know this but you don't want to see the truth. Rom 7:12   Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.   Jesus did not abolish the Law you know this but those who believe are part of a “foolish nation” Rom 7:15   For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.   Do you do what you hate to do? Rom 7:17   Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.   Is this similar to the person that says the devil made me do it? Does a blessed and sanctified man live like this? Rom 7:21   I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.   Do you see it this way? really? Rom 7:25   I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. This is like saying to your wife “I am having sex with this other woman but it is you I love” I noticed you did not Quote Jesus once, why not? Blood is not neccessary for atonement. Read all about it in Leviticus you will find the truth about the Scapegoat. The Life is only in he blood of The Living. Hi BD Of course, there were always men like Noah, and Abraham, and those under the law who had faith, but the Apostle Paul is speaking about faith in what God has done for humanity in the person of Jesus Christ. Salvation is not based upon perfect obedience to the Law.  We all have sinned (sin is the transgression of the law).  If salvation was based upon our obedience to the Law, it would be based on works and not upon faith in what God has done for us through Jesus. Quote 19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. And I am not under the law, but Jesus fulfilled the law, and by obedience to the commandments that have come to humanity from God through him, and the blood that was shed for me to cleanse me of sin when I fall short, I also fulfill the law.  Love is the fulfillment of the law. Quote Romans 8 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Love in Christ, Marty When you say Jesus fulfilled the law in what way does that have to do with ending the law? To fulfill the law is to do the law. Also do you understand that the TORAH is not “LAW” like we see it The Torah is translated as to mean THE TEACHINGS.

No BD, God's law is eternal. Jesus fulfilled the law he obeyed without sin even unto death on the cross, and so, in obedience to his commandments I also am fulfilling the law, but he did not make any mistakes, and I do, and so, when I make a mistake, I repent and ask God to forgive me. The blood of Jesus then washes my sin away and keeps me in a state of holiness and in right standing with God.

Hebrews 5:

Quote

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Quote

5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Lightenup]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2009,20:30)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 17 2009,18:17) Bo, First of all, I find it very distasteful when people “LOL” at others beliefs, FYI. Second of all, where does it say in the Bible that Jesus confessed His sins?  He did other things along with baptism to demonstrate the ordinance and not necessarily because He needed to do it like we do, i.e. He demonstrated communion.  He demonstrated communion not so He could remember His giving of His body and blood but to establish an ordinance for the believers to follow.   Third of all, do you realize that evening begins before sundown and the sabbath begins at sundown.  Therefore, Jesus was put in the tomb before sundown while it was still day which can count as day 1 in the grave.  He had to get in the tomb before sundown because the sabbath had not begun yet.  Also, did you realize that there is a non-seventh day sabbath during passover week?  It falls on the Feast of Unleavened Bread which began at sundown the night after Jesus died if I remember right.  With two sabbath days back to back and then Jesus being put into the tomb before sunset, you have 3 days and 3 nights. Also, you said: Quote But yet you believe he wouldn't spare his own son. read this: Rom 8:32 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? NASU God bless u 2, Kathi I wasn't laughing to be mean or condescending so I aplogize. When writing it's hard to express your emotions so I thought I would be lighthearted in my response but I guess it came across in a way that I didn't want it to, so once again please accept my sincerest apology. Okay, Now… I did n't say Jesus confessed “his” sins. I said he confessed the sins of Israel and repented for Israel as Christ. I myself keep the sabbath and it occurs at sundown and evening is sundown. But as I said if Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights then he did not raise on the third day because it would have been the fourth day. In regards to Romans 8:32 you will have to reconcile that with the verse I gave you in Malachi that said “God said” He wil spare them like a SON WHO SERVES HIM. God bless you and God willing you will forgive me.

Hi Bo,
No apology necessary since it was not your intent to be mean or condescending.  I guess that I, being a “weaker vessel” am more sensitive than you tough guys

Anyway, I would like to show you that evening and sundown are not necessarily the same.  If it were synonymous then there could not have been an evening on the first day of the week after the dawn of the first day of the week.  If it were synonymous then when evening came after the dawn of the first day of the week, then that would have started the second day of the week.  Read this passage referring to the day that the tomb was found empty:

John 20:19-25
19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
NASU

NT:3798
o&yio$
opsios (op'-see-os); from NT:3796; late; feminine (as noun) afternoon (early eve) or nightfall (later eve):

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary

So, again let's count the days and nights according to my understanding (I will refer to the names of the days as we do today although you still get the same number if you speak in Jewish calendar terms):
Day 1: near the end of the day on Thursday before sunset
Night 1: Thursday evening after sunset till dawn on Friday morning
Day 2: Friday after dawn till before sunset
Night 2: Friday after sunset till dawn on Saturday morning
Day 3: Saturday after dawn till before sunset
Night 3: Saturday after sunset till dawn on Sunday

Please keep in mind that day 4 did not begin yet when the women came early to the tomb and found Him missing.  They came before dawn. Please read this:

John 20:1
Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb.
NASU

There ya go, three days and three nights with back to back sabbaths-Friday was the sabbath for the Feast of Unleavened Bread, Saturday was the seventh day sabbath. IMO

Blessings to you Bo,
Kathi

[Author]

Posts