Are we born with SIN?

[Ramblinrose]

If Yahshua is to be the promised Messiah he MUST come from the 'seed of David'.  The OT is the key to who the Messiah (annointed) is to be.  He was prophesied to be from the seed of David – he would therefore have to be from the seed of David – this is what was prophesied and many NT passages are in agreement with the OT:

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Luke 1:32-33  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. John 7:42  Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? Acts 2:29-30   Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up the Messiah to sit on his throne; “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.  “This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Acts 13:22-23   And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: Romans 1:1-4   Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,  (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;  And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Galatians 3:16    Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Hebrews 7:14  For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 2 Timothy 2:8  Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: Revelation 5:5     “And one of the elders said to me, weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book and to loose the seven seals thereof.” Revelation 22:16     “I, Yahshua, have sent mine angel to testify to you these things in the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star.”

NT verses show that Joseph was indeed his father:

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Luke 2:48 So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously.” Luke 4:22  And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph‘s son? John 1:45  Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” John 6:42  And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

NT verses reveal he is a MAN:  

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Matthew 9:6  But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.  7  And he arose, and departed to his house.  8  But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men John 11:49-50 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all,  “nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” John 18:14 Now it was Caiaphas who advised the Jews that it was expedient that one man should die for the people. Acts 2:22  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Romans 5:17   For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. Romans 6:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by [/b]one man's[/b] obedience many will be made righteous. 1 Corinthians 15: 21    “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.” Hebrews 11:12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down at the right hand of God. 1 Timothy 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Yahshua himself states that he is a MAN:

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John 8:39-40 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.  “But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

Yahshua is the firstborn of many as he was the first to rise to everlasting life.

Any humanbeing who is to inherit everlasting life must first be born of a woman from the seed of a man.

We can't just ignore these verses as they are the evidence that show that Yahshua is indeed the Messiah.  He has the right to take the throne as King as he IS from the seed of David as Joseph and Mary are his biological parents.

[malcolm ferris]

MATTHEW 22:41-45
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
he LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

[Ramblinrose]

“How then is the Mashiach called David's son, if David referred to him as “Lord?”

Because the “Master” expected by King David was not only to be his physical descendant, but also David's Master, by virtue of this son's role and appointment by G-d as G-d's anointed agent — the long awaited Mashiach.

[malcolm ferris]

So how is he God's seed then?

[Ramblinrose]

{quote} So how is he God's seed then?[/quote}

What verse shows the above question?

[malcolm ferris]

Pick a verse – any one where he is called Son of God

[Ramblinrose]

What does it mean to be called 'the Son of God'?

FROM:  http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/keywords.htm

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Son of God – This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus’. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God. This conclusion will lead you right into the Doctrine of the Trinity. This is the formula they adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD when they said: “The Son is of the same substance as the Father.” It was at this council that Jesus was first made God. The Holy Spirit interestingly enough was not included in the formula. It was included fifty-six years later at another council. Let’s see what this title really means: Son of God – In the Old Testament Israel is described as God’s first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah “Son of God” for he is Israel’s representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204). “Son of God” denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman’s contention that the Hebrew concept of “son” does not denote an extensive circle of relationships” (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the “son of God” (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His “son” in 1 Chronicles 28:6. For Paul, “Son of God” is essentially a Christological description expressing “the Son’s solidarity with God” (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of “Son of God”(Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God’s anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing. The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states: “The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation: Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man applies to Mark’s gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament.” Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states: “The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization.” This is the meaning of the title “Son of God.” Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let’s take a look at some verses to confirm this. “The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)”… “I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)”… “The LORD said to me, “You are my son” (Psalm 2:2,6-7). Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son. “He first found his own brother and told him, “We have found the Messiah”…”Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel” (John 1:41& 49). John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of “Son of God.” Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.

[malcolm ferris]

Then who's blood are we saved by?

[Cubes]

Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 11 2006,13:27)

…He has the right to take the throne as King as he IS from the seed of David as Joseph and Mary are his biological parents.

Hi RR,

How do you reconcile the following passage to what you said?  

Matt 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold,* the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her* firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.

Secondly, what of the verses that say that he was in the beginning WITH God….

Also that he comes FROM God and furthermore, is the only one that has seen God? I have to run but shall try and post the exact verses for the benefit of all.

YHWH's Blessings.

[Cubes]

Also, what is the significance of us being told that he has come in the flesh, if he was regular flesh to begin with in every way?

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,
So being Son of God is only a title-though God makes this claim.
But being son of Joseph is fact-though this claim comes only from men?

Are you being consistent here and accepting truth where it is known to be found?

If Joseph is the father then his ways are not that honourable surely. He wanted to quietly put aside his betrothed wife when she was found to be with child in the full knowledge that he was the father of that child?

If so why was he told the child was conceived of the Holy Spirit and why did he not protest this fact?

In what way did he keep her a virgin when you say she was not a virgin anyway? Surely to be a virgin means that she had not had relations with men. She made this claim too-was she a liar?

[Cubes]

Furthermore, Jesus said whoever did his Father's will was his mother, sister and brother… but he called no one else “Father,” except YHWH so regarded God as his literal Father not merely or exclusively  figuratively or spiritually.

So often, the apostle Paul said things like, “Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ….” e.g. 2 Corinthians 1:3

Now we know that God is his Father too, but why the need to stress and emphasize that in Jesus' case?  Why did John write so much about it, trying to convince the Jews that this was not just another great prophet but one who had a unique relationship with the Father in which we have been privileged to share in since we are [hopefully] born again of the same Spirit?  I would assert that David was born of the Spirit of God as were many of the righteous before Jesus, e.g. John the Baptist… so why make an issue and stipulate that this one is the Son of God, not as in sons of God, but SON of God?  After all, as an Israelite, born in Judah, Jesus as all the Jews, would have been technically already a son of God… thus, why stipulate and say:

[Cubes]

My reason for citing Mark 3:35 above, is to say that Jesus could have added “father” to the list but didn't. Others could be his mom, brothers and sisters but no one else could be compared to or be his Father.

Conversely, he accepts those born again of the Spirit of the Father as brethren, acknowledging that his Father is our Father …. We have human fathers and have been adopted, needing to be born again, but he according to scripture was born directly of the holy spirit even as relates to his earthly advent.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
Is it not strange that the thing Jesus came to do was to state that he was the Son of God, and that God was his father and to bring us back through himself into relationship with God.

Yet so few will accept what he had to say and will try so hard to show otherwise, and yet claim they are serving God in doing so?
Jn 14.23f
” ..If anyone loves me he will keep my word, and my Father will love him and we will come to him and make our abode with him. He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's Who sent me”

At least we should agree that Jesus really is the son of God.

[Cubes]

Aptly said, Nick. The variations in doctrine appear to all have that in common in one way or another, starting with the unbelieving Jews:

They couldn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God, though they believe in YHWH.
The Moslems either, though they think their prophet too must be the prophet.
Then the Trinitarians seem to want to demonstrate that they accept the sonship of Jesus but to such an extent as to miss it by insisting he really isn't the son being the same God as his Father.

And now the unitarians, if RR's comment is not an oversight but representative of their doctrine, say that Jesus is naturally born as any other person having two human parents….

I have heard that the JWs say he was an angel to begin with… don't know

I don't know what the Latter Day Saints or Mormons believe concerning him.

Why can't he just be the Son of God as scripture says?

[Ramblinrose]

Malcolm

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Then who's blood are we saved by?

We are saved by the blood of a sinless man.  One who lived in obedience to YHWH his whole life.  The man annointed by YHWH.

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John 11:49-50 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all,  “nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” John 18:14 Now it was Caiaphas who advised the Jews that it was expedient that one man should die for the people. Acts 2:22  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 1 Corinthians 15: 21    “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.”

This 'man' came in the flesh (which is a reference to him being a normal humanbeing).  He was born without sin because nobody is born with sin.   And he led a life fully obedient to YHWH.  He is the seed of David, he is the annointed one.

[Ramblinrose]

Cubes

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·  1 John 2:22f Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?  He is antichrist who denies the Father AND the Son.  Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

I do not deny that Yahshua is the Messiah infact I have supported with this whole time.  YHWH also claims Israel as ‘his son’ , how do you explain this in context with being born of God then?

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Exodus 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

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Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of GOD, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

The will of YHWH is to follow his commandments.  Yahshua acknowledges those that are following YHWH to be his brothers and sisters and mother.  We often refer to eachother as brothers because we have the same beliefs – is this not the same thing.

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John 6:46  Not that anyone has seen  (3708) the Father, except He who is FROM God; He has SEEN (3708) the Father.

3708 oraw horao hor-ah’-o
properly, to stare at [cf 3700]; TDNT-5:315,706; v
AV-see 51, take heed 5, behold 1, perceive 1, not tr 1; 59
1) to see with the eyes
2) to see with the mind, to perceive, know
3) to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
4) to see, to look to
4a) to take heed, beware
4b) to care for, pay heed to
5) I was seen, showed myself, appeared

Reinterpretation:
John 6.46  Not that anyone has perceived/known the Father, except he who is godly; he has perceived/known the Father.

The FROM is added text.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 11 2006,22:27)

Malcolm Quote Then who's blood are we saved by? We are saved by the blood of a sinless man.  One who lived in obedience to YHWH his whole life.  The man annointed by YHWH. Quote John 11:49-50 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all,  “nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” John 18:14 Now it was Caiaphas who advised the Jews that it was expedient that one man should die for the people. Acts 2:22  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 1 Corinthians 15: 21    “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.” This 'man' came in the flesh (which is a reference to him being a normal humanbeing).  He was born without sin because nobody is born with sin.   And he led a life fully obedient to YHWH.  He is the seed of David, he is the annointed one.

Hi RR,
Did you come in the flesh too?

Did you humble yourself and partake of flesh as the Son of God did?

So do we all come in the flesh?

Strange.

Gen 2 says we are created from dust.

So we do not come in the dust\flesh but are dust.

So does God confirm this when He said
“remember man that thou ART dust and unto dust though shalt return.”

[malcolm ferris]

By man came death so by a man came resurrection.
Man that is born of woman is of few years and full of trouble…
I think it is fitting that since the conception through Eve spelt death for every one of us, and she was linked to this sin undoubtedly for God increased her pain in conception, it is fitting that God in reconciling Himself to man, also redeemed the woman's status by bringing the Messiah through a woman.
But that is not the only reason why it was done this way. It was necessary that the Law be fulfilled by the death of a perfect sacrifice.
The blood sacrifices of natural lambs only spoke of a better blood to come, a blood of identical nature to ours – human blood.
This blood not only covered sin for a season but took it away completely by a spiritual rebirth made possible through the shedding of this blood and the sending forth of the life contained in that blood upon the believer.
The Law says “life for life”. God could only do it by the life of a kinsman, and that had to be a perfect kinsman, one without sin. So it was impossible for natural man to accomplish this.
God appeared to Abraham as a man (Heb 7:1-3) That was God – for He alone is eternal, without father or mother… In that form He did not redeem us – why? In that form He was without father or mother, eternal, without beginning or end, immortal (undying).
So He had to send His Son into the world made in a form like ours to partake of death, and God dwelling in Him, completely identified with him.
It is God's blood that was in Jesus, no part of it can be Mary's for in Acts 20:28 it tells you the blood that the Holy Ghost (God – the Father of Jesus Christ) has purchased the church with is His own blood. Mary had no part in the genetic makeup of Jesus in my opinion…

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
That verse in Acts 20 has different forms in different manuscripts and some say it is the blood of the Lamb, which makes more sense I think.
Jesus is the Lamb of God. He is the sacrificial lamb. He is the first fruits and the spotless lamb, but he was not a special super lamb unlike his fellow lambs with special advantages. If he was none could attempt to follow him. No he was unsullied by sin. He had mastered the challenge of sin and overcome it showing us in him the way. He was clean as we must become.
He was truly a man and one of us in EVERY WAY except sin or scripture is broken.He partook fully of our human condition as a son of Man. He is the Son of Man. He said so.
If you say Mary is not his mother and we agree Joseph is not his physical father in what way is he Son of Man = Son of Adam?

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