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Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 07 2006,22:10) Cubes
I don't know about the whole 50:50 Mary God thing
Doesn't it say in the Bible somewhere man that is born of woman is of few days …
Also was not Mary born with the sin nature?
How then would Jesus be born without sin if a part of his genetic material was Mary?
Hi Malcolm:I agree…I don't know about the 50/50 chromosome thing either… but what I do know is that Jesus is genetically related to Adam through Mary, according to scripture.
That Mary, like us, was affected by this pronouncement in Eden and so were her other children:Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
that through that genetic relationship, Jesus was born as a man who experienced all that we do except in sin, and could lay his life down and even experience death on our behalf. It is what I mean to say that the human aspect of him would have a propensity towards sin, however, being born of the holy spirit also, would have provided him with actual godly options, outlook and desires….having the mind of the Spirit rather than 'the same old, same old!' It's no different from us when we become born again of the Spirit, only he is excellent in every way! Whereas we often have been wrecked by sin and have so much baggage to bypass and…. to work our way past “F!”, but if we faint not, the Lord surely helps us progress to be more of a reflection of Jesus rather than our old sorry selves!
Well the way I see it the seed was of God, now if you are talking sperm then you would have God in fornication.
I beleive the seed was even as we are told in I Peter 1:23 – Incorruptable (Spora) seed by the Word of God.
I beleive Jesus was that incorruptible seed which is why God would not allow his soul to remain in hell or suffer His holy one to see corruption.
So God placed a perfect cell in the womb of the virgin Mary and that life of God built a body for the son of God to dwell in.
The body was built from the nutrients provided in the womb of Mary thus making him human flesh that had capability to partake of death.
That's just the way I see it…Hi Malcolm,
So Mary did not conceive?Mary was only a surrogate mother providing no egg?
The human womb does not provide nourishment except through a placenta which also is the result of conception.
Christ was not like us but had supernatural human physical advantages? It does not read in Is 53 like that.
God has no sin that can be charged against Him. Why could He not provide human male chromosomal material by an act of creation?
All creation is His including that of Mary.
Well I guess we have differing opinions on that one then,
I don't have the time right now to look into your questions but I will look into it later…How about Yahshua being the child of both Mary and Joseph through normal relations? Yahshua must be from the seed of David or he cannot be the prophesied Messiah.
Deut 18:18-19 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
Numbers 1:18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.
2 Samuel 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.
1 Kings 2:33 Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever: but upon David, and upon his seed, and upon his house, and upon his throne, shall there be peace for ever from the LORD.
1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
Psalms 89:3-4
I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish forever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.Psalms 132:11-12 The LORD has sworn in truth to David; He will not turn from it: “I will set upon your throne the fruit of your body. If your sons will keep My covenant And My testimony which I shall teach them, Their sons also shall sit upon your throne forevermore.
Isaiah 11:1-2 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. The Spirit of the YHWH shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the YHWH.
Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith YAH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jeremiah 33:14-15 “Behold, the days are coming, says YHWH, when I will fulfil the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring forth for David; and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.
Mary was of the tribe of Judah and a descendant of David. Hence it could be said of her son Jesus that he “sprang from the seed of David according to the flesh.” (Ro 1:3)
Through his adoptive father Joseph, a descendant of David, Jesus had a legal right to David’s throne, and through his mother, as the “offspring,” “seed,” and “root” of David, he held the natural hereditary right to “the throne of David his father.”—Mt 1:1-16; Lu 1:32; Ac 13:22, 23; 2Ti 2:8; Re 5:5; 22:16.Hi RR,
Matt 1.18
“..when his mother mary had been betrothed to Joseph, BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER she was found to be with child BY THE HOLY SPIRIT”
Matt 1.24
“Joseph…took Mary as his wife, BUT KEPT HER A VIRGIN until she gave birth to a son;..”Lk 1.26
“…the angel Gabriel was sent… to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph.. .Mary said to the angel
'How can this be , since I am a virgin?'”
Scripture is clear the child was not from Joseph.As far as I can see the word translated conceive in Is 7:14 means to be pregnant or with child, it says nothing of how.
Science today shows us it is possible for a living cell to be placed in a womb from a test tube and for conception to follow…
Genesis 3:15 speaks of the woman's seed – speaking of Christ to come, if this is literal then he could not be God's seed which the scripture clearly says he is.
The truth of the matter is that the woman has no seed, for the life is carried in the blood through the male. She may produce a zillion eggs but they don't produce life – a continuing seed – unless the male seed fertilizes them.
I believe the woman's seed means the seed that comes from a woman. How? A virgin conceived when this seed was place within the virgin womb.
I think David's post a few up from this explains well why Mary was chosen among women to be the one to bear this Holy One.
Now I don't know that anyone can conclusively prove this either way, (I could be wrong though), so I think it comes down to opinion at this point.
Although I have a lot of reasons for why I view it this way…Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 11 2006,01:09) As far as I can see the word translated conceive in Is 7:14 means to be pregnant or with child, it says nothing of how.
Science today shows us it is possible for a living cell to be placed in a womb from a test tube and for conception to follow…
Genesis 3:15 speaks of the woman's seed – speaking of Christ to come, if this is literal then he could not be God's seed which the scripture clearly says he is.
The truth of the matter is that the woman has no seed, for the life is carried in the blood through the male. She may produce a zillion eggs but they don't produce life – a continuing seed – unless the male seed fertilizes them.
I believe the woman's seed means the seed that comes from a woman. How? A virgin conceived when this seed was place within the virgin womb.
I think David's post a few up from this explains well why Mary was chosen among women to be the one to bear this Holy One.
Now I don't know that anyone can conclusively prove this either way, (I could be wrong though), so I think it comes down to opinion at this point.
Although I have a lot of reasons for why I view it this way…
Hi Malcolm.
Is 7.14 NASB
” Behold a virgin will be with child..”
The word translated “virgin” should really be “young woman” perhaps reflecting bias.Children are the fruit and seed of the woman.
An implanted cell is a fertilised cell requiring an egg and seed.
Hi Malcolm,
Did Jesus not fully share our estate?
Was his body different to ours?
Did he have advantages?
Was he not a son of Adam?
Was he not a son of David?
Did he get hungry and thirsty as we do?
Was he born with a perfect body not subject to sickness or suffering?
Was he born perfect in nature or did he not have to learn obedience as we do?If so then it is not fair and we cannot follow him.
Hi Malcolm,
As you know sin is influence and action.
Where is it written that Jesus was different in this way and born without sin?
Was he never under Adam's curse or did he overcome it and bring freedom for all in him?If we read again 2 Cor 5.21
” He made him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in him”
and 1 Peter 2.21f
“Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in his steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in his mouth”
do these not speak of no sinful actions only?
What do others think and are there any other scriptures we can find that are relevant?You will not suffer your Holy one to see corruption.
He was made sin for us, sin was imputed upon him for us, on our behalf who knew no sin.
It is a great mystery as Paul tells us, but his being born in that fashion, made a little lower, in likeness of us, this one who once was glorified with his Father…
His life was exemplary yet as a man, in the form of frail mortality he was subject to the same weaknesses as us, he hungered, was weary, aged …Hi Malcolm,
James 1.14
” But every one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin..”Was Christ tempted?
Yes
Heb 2.18
“For since he himself was tempted in that which he has suffered , he is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted”Yes we read about some of his temptation when he had fasted for forty days and was hungry and along comes Satan and tempts him “you are hungry use your authority to turn those stones into bread …”
Also when he was at Gethsemane and was wrestling with going through with the crucifiction death. So Jesus was hungry, he desired food, but he didn't allow that to conceive and give birth to sin. He rejected it in his mind…
Jesus was anxious about the painful death he was facing, but he didn't allow it to conceive and give birth to sin…
He overcame by submitting his will to that of God.The Bible repeatedly states that Joseph is of the House of David.
Quote Luke 1:27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. Luke2:4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David,
Matt 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David,
The Scriptural pattern for ancestry is firmly and consistently a PATRIARCHAL (father’s side) lineage.
Quote Numbers 1:18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls. I have been unable to find a verse that shows which house Mary is from apart from the following connection:
Quote Luke 1:36 “Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. Elizabeth is referred to as Mary’s relative/kinsman/cousin depending on which translation you read. Relative (4773 suggenes) has the following meaning: 1) of the same kin, akin to, related by blood.
As Zachariah and Elizabeth are from the House of Aaron and the Tribe of Levi, and Mary is related to Elizabeth by blood, it would appear that Mary would also be from the House of Aaron and not from the House of David, making her from the priestly line and not the royal.
Quote Matt 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together (4905), she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. before they came together, is not a reference to sexual relations but is in regard to their living together.
4905 sunercomai sunerchomai soon-er’-khom-ahee
from 4862 and 2064; TDNT-2:684,257; v
AV-come together 18, go with 4, come with 2, resort 2, come 2, come with + 2258 1, company with 1, accompany 1, assemble with 1; 32
1) to come together
1a) to assemble
1b) of conjugal cohabitation
2) to go (depart) or come with one, to accompany oneQuote Matt 1:24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her ** till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS. Quote ** quote from the Dead Sea Scrolls a new translation. translated and with commentary. michael wise, martin abegg, jr., & edward cook . pg 65. (harpersanfrancisco copyright 1996)
“who lies with a pregnant woman when her monthly period ceases or lies with a man as one lies with a woman: these are the ones who violate the way” a few of these words are guesses but the meaning is clear.It would appear that one did not have sexual relations with ones wife when they were with child. It is plausible that Joseph took a vow of abstinence until the child was born.
Quote Luke 1:34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” Reinterpretation:
Then Mary said to the angel, “How can that be, seeing that I have not had sexual relations with my betrothed?”A rhetorical question? In verse 31 the angel’s statement ‘you will conceive’ confused Mary as to when this would happen, as she was not having sexual relations at this time with Joseph and no timeframe for the event is given. When was this to happen? It can’t happen yet, as she hasn’t married Joseph at this time. Even if she was to marry, it could take some time to conceive.
Mary knew that a child was conceived by relations with a man, and whilst the angel says nothing about having relations with Joseph this would naturally be taken for granted as she was to marry him shortly.
It should also be noted that the angel says nothing about NOT having sexual relations. There is no reason to assume that Mary was going to have anything other than normal sexual relations with Joseph. The concept of a god having relations with a virgin woman and creating a man/god child was that of ‘mystical’ pagan belief, not Jewish.
Quote Luke 1:31 “And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Yahshua. Abraham was told that Sarah would conceive a child; Isaac was told Rebekah would conceive; an angel told the wife of Manoah that she would conceive a son; Zechariah was told that Elizabeth would bear a son and an Angel now tells Mary she will conceive. There is nothing unusual to be read into this verse, it is in keeping with other prophetic visits. The fact that an Angel has foretold of a birth in any of the previous situations has not led to the child being anything other than a normal human being fathered by the seed of a man.
The seed argument
I believe a seed comes from a man only and, that when referred to as ‘the seed of a woman’, it is because she has conceived her husband’s seed – she is with child.
Quote Speaking of Eve, … (Gen 4:25) And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed/ZERA instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. Abel therefore was the SEED of Eve (as much as Cain, Seth, etc) The seed Eve is referring to will come from Adam. When a woman is with child she is carrying a seed; a seed that has came from her husband. The same verse says that Adam had relations with her so the seed she carried was that of Adam.
Quote The angel said to Hagar … (Gen 16:10) And the angel of YAHWEH said unto her, I will multiply thy seed/ZERA exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. This verse is referring to Hagar’s son (the seed which she had received from Abraham) having many sons.
Quote Concerning Rebekah …
(Gen 24:60) And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed/ZERA possess the gate of those which hate them.This refers to the children Rebekah will have, which will come from her husbands seed when they have relations.
Quote (Lev 22:13) But if the priest's daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child [seed/ZERA], … This verse is especially interesting and helps enormously to discredit this whole theory. These women never bore any children because they never carried their husbands seed. Note that their eggs/ovum alone were not considered seed.
Quote (Ruth 4:12) And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed/ZERAwhich YAHWEH shall give thee of this young woman. Lets read both 12 and 13 of Ruth 4:
Quote 12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the LORD shall give thee of this young woman.
13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son.Again, Ruth carried the seed of her husband.
Quote (1 Sam 2:20) And Eli blessed Elkanah and his wife, and said, YAHWEH give thee seed/ZERA of this woman … Elkanah’s wife was Hannah who was barren. Eli blessed her and YHWH made her able to conceive the seed from her husband.
SUMMARY: It can be seen from the above that no woman carries a seed until it is conceived in her from her husband.
But in Christ they are nether male or female, God is a Spirit.
In Gen 1 God created man(kind) in his image.
Then secondarily He introduced gender, male and female created He them…
Gender really only has relevance when you come into Gen 2 and the manifestation of man in flesh…
That is why I believe the stipulation of Peter was
To be born again not of corruptible seed (sperma) but incorruptible seed (spora) by the Word of God.
The first birth is by way of sperma through gender.
The new birth is without gender through the Spirit of God.
Jesus is the first of this new birth, he is the first one, the first son, or did I miss something…
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