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Wants versus needs that sums it up pretty nicely
Here's a little quizzer, how is it that Adam was not deceived? (1 Tim 2:13-14)
This implies he knew what he was doing… why did he do it then?Hi Malcolm,
True.
Satan is the deceiver and Adam is not said to have met him directly.Perhaps fear of woman?
Perhaps wanting to protect Eve from the wrath of God?
Or fear of losing the love of Eve?
Or fear of losing control of his life?Personally I believe Adam, being a son of God in unfallen condition reflected Christ to some degree. The answer I believe is Love. Adam loved Eve, he knew that she had to die for the transgression and gave himself for her. He was willing to risk his own life to cover her, hoping that God would spare them both, and determined if not to rather die than live without her.
EPHESIANS 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;Adam was a son of God, as such his life could not help but foreshadow in some ways the second Adam: uniquely born into the world, the first of a race, born without sin, and like Christ, truly in love with the bride God gave him. And we as his (Christ's) church are likened to Eve before the transgression by Paul.
II CORINTHIANS 11:2-3
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.The word espoused there means promised in marriage, Mary was said to be espoused to her husband Joseph (Matthew 1:18-20), here the Church a virgin, like Mary and Eve, promised to a husband in marriage. But Paul was concerned that she would not remain a chaste virgin but would be corrupted, defiled in the womb of her mind by some false conception of man concerning Christ. He likens this deception of the mind to the beguilement of the serpent to Eve.
Well one thing is for sure he could not redeem her or us, God alone is the redeemer, He provides us with a Savior. Man can never provide a way for themselves that God will accept. Although there have been many attempts, how many differrent religions do we have in the world today?
Hi Malcolm,
Humanism, which really is the idolatry of man, is a common substitute for serving God in truth. Perhaps Adam led the way.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2006,00:14) Hi Malcolm,
Humanism, which really is the idolatry of man, is a common substitute for serving God in truth. Perhaps Adam led the way.
Well the sin in the garden seems to be an act of transgression, partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil caused them to become ashamed of their nakedness. Covering the nakedness followed the transgression and has all of the hallmarks of human religious error : attempting to make some way of reconciliation with God, to be found acceptable in His sight.Interesting to consider that the church in Laodicea (revelation 3) is the full expression of this error. She (the church) sees herself as rich, increased in goods, not lacking or needing of anything. God sees her as she is: wretched, poor, miserable, blind and naked. In other words naked and not ashamed in her own opinion, and the advice of God is for her to get covered up in the righteous attire of the Word of Truth so that the shame of her nakedness is not uncovered.
It was man's works that produced the coverings of vegetation meant to veil the fact that they were naked. God's provision by Grace was to give them skins.
Incidentally Leviticus 18 has some interesting things to say about the discovery of nakedness or the uncovering of it. Adam knew his wife, it was knowledge that came for the tree of good and evil (same word used in the Hebrew for knowledge, know and knew)I believe the acts of Adam prior to the fall shadowed Christ the second Adam, we see his shadow throughout the entire Old Testament. The seed of the woman, Abel typed the innocent blood of a firstborn, David typed Christ weeping at the gates of Jerusalem, many events of Moses life shadowed the events of Jesus' life, there are many more examples.
Like I say Adam knew what he was doing according to Paul, also in the record of Genesis it details the woman's enticement, she was clearly beguiled by her own senses and drawn away by her own lusts (James 1:13-15) Now this is not to make excuses for Adam, he was obviously aware of the consequences of his actions (Gen 2:17) But it does state he was not fooled, not deceived, not beguiled. So he was either completely wicked in his nature or there was another motive hidden in there.
JOHN 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.I JOHN 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.MARK 7:21-23
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.Yes and what comes out of the heart of men has to come from some original source, and there are only 2 real possibilities: the god of this world, or the God of Heaven.
And the real test as to whether what comes out is in essence the true characteristic of the person is tested by the reaction to the Word when it comes as Light to quicken the soul.
Jesus said they could not hear his word because they had no place in them for it.
Others heard it gladly and were transformed.
What comes out of the heart reveals the heart condition therefore we could say.
If what comes out is symptomatic of sin then there are 2 possibilities.
1 – it is a true expression of the inner man which is utterly corrupt.
2 – it is the expression of a fallen nature, the flesh.In the natural heart is blood, the bible says life is in the blood, so the expression of the heart shows the condition of that blood or life, what that life is, where it came from…
Genesis 1:11 tells us the law of life is that the blood must ring true, the seed must be according to kind. When we are a fallen son of God this is not the case, our soul is not expressing the Life of a son of God, but because of the transgression is expressing a hybrid life, good and evil.
Hi Malcolm,
The inner man is a vessel, one that can be cleaned, one that can be transformed. It is sin that lives in this vessel that is evil not the vessel itself. That vessel is made in the image of God, from the living breath of God and is good. That vessel lives in flesh, condemned flesh, of earth and destined for return to dust. The Vessel must be cleaned by the waters of renewal and find the fountain that flows inwards and upwards to eternal life before the wheel shatters, the rope breaks and the bucket falls to the bottom of the well.The inner man is not even alive until the rebirth.
Death is separation from God, we are cut off because of sin.
Once we are born again, sin does not live in the inner man.
Sin is in the flesh, and remains there, which is why the body is dead, because of sin.
He that is born of God (what is reborn?) does not sin, for His seed remains in him…
The vessel of flesh was lost to sin because of the transgression in the garden.
The outer man (flesh) is corrupt and cannot inherit incorruption which is why the living that remain at his coming must be changed in the atoms of the flesh.
Before sin the vessel was clean and was enlivened by the Spirit of God, since sin we have a spirit contrary to God, a carnal nature.
Before sin the inner man was not separated from God but had contact through the body.
Because the inner man is of God (in the children of God) he shall be redeemed by God.Hi Malcolm,
Gen 1.36
“Then God said
'Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness…'”
Gen 3.19
“'…till you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return'”Now is man, as dust, made in the image of God? Is God dust or is God spirit.
Gen 2.7
“Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being”Man is a living being made in the image of God, the divine image, by the breath of God. Our body is of dust, a mere tent Paul refers to it as in 2 Cor 5.1f
“For we know that isf the earthly tent is torn down, we have a building from God….For indeed in this house we groan…For indeed, while we are in this tent we groan, being burdened ; because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life…knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord…we are of good courage. I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home from the Lord”Paul clearly shows that his life is within the body as the inner man and he wants the new body to be put over the old as the imperishable clothes the perishable.
1Cor 4.7f
“We have this great treasure in earthen vessels……..Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying our inner man is being renewed day by day”We are reborn into Christ and then Christ is reborn, as Spirit, into us. We are body , soul and spirit[1thess 4] The body dies because of sin. Our own soul vessel does not die but is cleansed to receive this treasure. The Spirit comes to live in us and lead us and teach us as we submit to Him according to the word.
Heb 10 22
” let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water”Rom 12 2
“and do not be conformed to the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind..”1Peter 3.21
” baptism now saves you- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience”Tit 3.5
“He saved us, …by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit”None of these say our inner man dies but is renewed by cleansing.
as Jesus said to the scribes and Pharisees in Matt 23.25
“..For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside are full of robbery and self indulgence. You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and the dish, so that the outside may become clean also”
The outside is the body, the inside soul, and both are cleansed through repentance and baptism so that the treasure of God, The Spirit, may live inside.Hi ,
SIN has many greek roots.
From Amart comes
266 Hamartia
264 Hamartano
265 Hamartemo
268 Haratolos is derived from these.They seem to be relatively interchangeable so not much light there. Perhaps a greek scholar can help us?
Nick
The man God made in his image and likeness was in Gen 1, God is a spirit, this was a spirit man. In Gen 2 He formed a body for that man, it says there was no man to till the soil so God formed a man then breathed the breath of life into him.
Now though this flesh is as you say a tent, a vessel for the soul it is still a part of what we are, we are made of 3 parts body, soul and spirit and we are not complete with any of these parts missing.
That is why the heavenly body that awaits upon death is not a complete or perfect redemption, it has to come back to a glorified flesh.
Presently we have a redeemed and sealed soul,(Eph 4:30) if sealed with the Holy Spirit of God then it cannot sin, (1 Jn 3:9) the nature has changed. (1 Cor 5:17 – Eph 4:22-24)
We are promised a spirit body upon death, (1 Cor 5:1) and have the holy spirit by baptism as the earnest of this promise. (2 Cor 1:22) That spirit body cannot die.
The finale is when the soul in this body then returns to flesh, that flesh is glorified and also not cannot die. (1 Cor 15:54)
Yet as Paul tells us in Romans 7, our present condition produces somewhat of a contradiction for we are an inner man and an outer man. The inner man is led by God, the outer man is the old carnal nature, which once also affected our soul unto death.
And our free moral agency means we have to choose between which man will be in control, that is how the character of Christ is wrought in us, and we overcome when we cast down anything in our minds that exalts itself above the word of God.
The outer man is not the flesh – that is just a vessel like you say.
The outer man is a spirit of death, the inner man a spirit of life.
The body of flesh is carnal because of the bias it has towards sin.
The body has five senses to contact this world – see, taste, hear, smell and feel. These all have a bias to the outer man.
Our mind uses these senses and it is here that the real battle begins, where the mind must decide whether to be led by and act according to what these senses tell it or what the Word of God declares by His Spirit. Our mind has the capacity to reason, remember, imagine, have affections and conscience. All of these can be controlled by the senses of the body or by the inner man. This is the renewing of the mind, casting down reason, imagination, memory, conscience and affection where they contradict with the Truth of God.You said
“We are born into Christ and then Christ is reborn, as Spirit into us…”
Do you have scripture for that?
“None of these say our inner man dies but is renewed by cleansing.”
I did not say that the inner man dies, I said initially it is separated from God (Eph 2:1) The inner man is quickened and this mortal body shall be quickened later on.
Death is separation, when we say the body is dead because of sin it means the flesh is separate and alien from the life that is in God.
When physical death occurs it is the result of the spirit that enlivens the body being cut off, separated from the body.Cleaning the inside of the cup is the renewal of the spirit of the mind, not the cleansing of the soul, the soul is renewed once and a new life begins from here.
We do not need to be renewed in the soul daily
Matt 11:9 is a promise from Jesus of rest for our souls, that is where the genuine Christian experience takes hold, we have peace that the world cannot affect, our body or trouble in the body cannot affect it, our mind or trouble in our mind cannot affect it, (Rom 8:35-39) for we are sealed in our souls with eternal life. (Heb 6:19).
Remember we are a threefold being body, spirit and soul…
We have a body prepared, our soul is redeemed, leaving the spirit of the mind in question.
There are two sources at work in the battle for the mind, the spirit of death and the spirit of life.
We are told to take on the mind of Christ, we can only do this by obedience of faith by the Spirit of God that dwells in our souls. When we backslide and allow the spirit that dwells in our flesh (carnal man) to control it is not the soul that sins, we repent, change our thinking and get renewed in the mind.
The soul is not in continual repentance, the soul does not require Christ to be sacrificed on a continual basis. But the spirit of the mind is a work in progress.
This is where the confusion comes between those who say once saved always saved and those who say that our salvation is a performance based affair. The truth is somewhere in between. If we are the children of God then we shall be saved, we are quickened to a rebirth by the Spirit of God in our souls and this then begins a process of development in our minds.Many who claim to have had a rebirth experience have received no more than mental conception of Christ, it must go deeper to produce a genuine new birth (1 Pet 1:23)
There are many who have been born again of a corrupt mental concept of God into the church of man. But we are to be reborn of the incorrupt Word seed into the body of Christ.Hi Malcolm,
I presume you mean 2 Cor 1.
You have lost me in the extensive and complicated convolutions of your theology. Simple is best.
Man is created twice or is it three times? First as spirit, then as body and then given life?
The verse about Christ being born into us is in Gal 4.19, the other of us being born into him is Gal 3.27f
Man is a threefold being body, spirit and soul.
Body has senses for input
Mind has memory, reason etc for input
The soul has faith or doubt.There is nothing complicated about it at all, the body is dead because of sin, and is to be kept under subjection to God's Spirit.
This is done in the mind, where the battle is.
In our soul is rest, peace, stability because of the finished work of Calvary.The mind is the battlefield.
The minds inputs can be influenced by the natural senses in the flesh or by the Spirit of God in the soul.
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