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That's what I believe too, the character of Christ is what we are aiming for.
That is what the mind of Christ in us achieves. I don't think we can achieve this on our own abilities, that is why the Holy Ghost is given.
I view it like this, our soul (true inner nature) is like a seed, laying dormant until the rebirth. Like any seed it has the capacity to produce a body according to the pattern of life contained within it.
Adam recieved a spirit to become a living soul, the breath of God.
Jesus transferred that back upon man by the giving of the Holy Ghost.
We at birth have a different spirit to this, the spirit of the world (god of this world)
This produced in us a life that is something akin to a hybrid plant.
Unable to reproduce any further – in effect dead – the result of mixing good and evil.Hi Malcolm,
Christ looked like us and his countrymen, no doubt, saw him as a man.Man is of the dust according to Gen 2.
But if you say he is not of Mary, and we agree he was not of Joseph, then the only reason to say he was one of us as a man is that the bible says he is, and God defines him as a man.
Is that what you believe?
Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 15 2006,00:33) That's what I believe too, the character of Christ is what we are aiming for.
That is what the mind of Christ in us achieves. I don't think we can achieve this on our own abilities, that is why the Holy Ghost is given.
I view it like this, our soul (true inner nature) is like a seed, laying dormant until the rebirth. Like any seed it has the capacity to produce a body according to the pattern of life contained within it.
Adam recieved a spirit to become a living soul, the breath of God.
Jesus transferred that back upon man by the giving of the Holy Ghost.
We at birth have a different spirit to this, the spirit of the world (god of this world)
This produced in us a life that is something akin to a hybrid plant.
Unable to reproduce any further – in effect dead – the result of mixing good and evil.
Hi Malcolm,
The fruit of the Holy Spirit of God as shown in Gal 5.22f is the nature of Christ. This is the nature of God expressed in Christ and meant to be also expressed in us. These are the fruits we are supposed to produce in us such that they become our true nature.We are said to be like to him when we see him. So what do we produce of our own? Very little. A flavour, an influence from our own personality just as the apostles still always differed.
But essentially Christ in all, God in all.
Who made the dust? who made man? how? God made Mary out of the dust too yet not the same way as Adam, He made Adam out of the dust yet in a different fashion to us, He is the creator.
His law states the seed must bring forth the life contained within it. In every case, despite different methods of arrival each produce the life of a human, Adam, Eve, us, Christ.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2006,00:47) Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 15 2006,00:33) That's what I believe too, the character of Christ is what we are aiming for.
That is what the mind of Christ in us achieves. I don't think we can achieve this on our own abilities, that is why the Holy Ghost is given.
I view it like this, our soul (true inner nature) is like a seed, laying dormant until the rebirth. Like any seed it has the capacity to produce a body according to the pattern of life contained within it.
Adam recieved a spirit to become a living soul, the breath of God.
Jesus transferred that back upon man by the giving of the Holy Ghost.
We at birth have a different spirit to this, the spirit of the world (god of this world)
This produced in us a life that is something akin to a hybrid plant.
Unable to reproduce any further – in effect dead – the result of mixing good and evil.
Hi Malcolm,
The fruit of the Holy Spirit of God as shown in Gal 5.22f is the nature of Christ. This is the nature of God expressed in Christ and meant to be also expressed in us. These are the fruits we are supposed to produce in us such that they become our true nature.We are said to be like to him when we see him. So what do we produce of our own? Very little. A flavour, an influence from our own personality just as the apostles still always differed.
But essentially Christ in all, God in all.
I like that
Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 15 2006,00:49) Who made the dust? who made man? how? God made Mary out of the dust too yet not the same way as Adam, He made Adam out of the dust yet in a different fashion to us, He is the creator.
His law states the seed must bring forth the life contained within it. In every case, despite different methods of arrival each produce the life of a human, Adam, Eve, us, Christ.
Hi Malcolm,
God made Adam out of the dust.
Then Genesis 1.27f
“…..Male and female He created them.God blessed them ;and God said to them
'Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it..' “So the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, like Mary, are not directly from the dust as Adam was. They are from the command of God derived from Adam.
But you say the flesh of Christ is not derived from dust ?
ROMANS 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh – not made sinful flesh. Apparently flesh is sinful due to the fall in the garden of Eden. Paul – a Christian leader who had experienced the rebirth by the Spirit of God declared that in his flesh was no good thing? Why if he was reborn the surely sin was dealt with? Why was his flesh still condemned? Because we are born with a sin nature, due to the way we came. It is carried in the flesh of mankind by blood through the genetic material of both parents. That is why Jesus was formed in the womb of Mary from a blood cell created by God. That is how he can be called the blood of God by which we are saved. We are not saved by the blood of a man born in sin, but the blood of the only begotten son of God.
And as I have said before, conception is possible in this way as science today proved to us with invitro fertilization. Now there are some who hold that Jesus was not even virgin born. Prove it? no-one can prove this. We hold he was the virgin born Messiah. Prove it? We can only believe it by faith. My faith tells me this is what happened…Hi Malcolm,
Rom 8.3
“For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did; sending His own Son
IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH and as an offering for sin..”The Lamb of God was from among the sheep.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2006,20:15) Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 12 2006,13:47) Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 12 2006,07:48) Let me rephrase the following: Melchisedec was a ‘man’. To say he was without father and without mother and without decent is referring to the fact that he had no genealogy and yet was still a High Priest.
He was born of a father and mother but not having a genealogy means that nobody knew who they were. He was a normal human being but nobody new much about him other than that YHWH had choosen him as High Priest.
Without father, without mother, without beginning of days, or end of life…
This Great man also a King, King of Salem.
This Great man that Abraham had dealings with who was a Preist of the Most High God.
Yet noone knows who his father or mother was, when he was born or died…
Sorry can't see it, Abraham met a man who is said to be YHWH in Gen18 this man had dust on his feet and ate a meal with Abraham, so why would it be so incredible therefore for this Melchizedek to be God in flesh? How hard is it for God to just create a body from the elements to use in this fashion…
This man (Melchizedek) is said to be King of Righteousness, also King of Peace, also King of Salem.
I know Jesus is the Prince of Peace, who is the King?
King of Righteousness – how can a man hold this title?
King of Salem – where? (Ps. 76:2 – Jerusalem?)
Who is King of Salem?
Hi Malcolm,
You are asking us to believe you when scripture does not state what you state.
We learn from scripture here ahead of any derived opinion such as trinity and I am sure you will agree with this.
Not only does it not state that Melchizidek is God, but it does state he is a priest OF the most high God. It would seem a stretch of the imagination that he was both a priest of God and God Himself?
I agree with Ramblinrose that it was a great angel representing God, a not unusual event in scripture, who was seen in Gen 18.
“For the heavens and the highest heavens cannot contain Him” 2Chr 2.6
So how can a pitiful human body?
Rather than harp on about this subject I have compiled an article that gives adequate coverage of the topic
Who is this Man MelchizedekHi Malcolm,
I hope you have not set your mind on these things because they do not line up with scripture in my opinion. They are teachings that go way beyond that of Christ and thus we are warned to be wary of them.
Gen 14.17f
“..and the kings who were with him…went out to meet him ..And Melchizedek, King of Salem, brought out bread and wine;now he was a priest of God Most High. And he blessed him and said
'Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand'
and he gave him a tenth of all”This is scripture and so is truth. There were several men who were kings who met Abram. Salem is a real place. The king of Salem was a real man and a real king and a real priest of God. He mixed with men and other kings such as the King of Sodom and was known to them and he met Abram along with others. None of this is allegory. God is not a man.
Hebrews 7.3 says “he abides a priest perpetually”.
That does not say he always was a priest from eternity but, like the Son of God, he remains one for eternity.
Your view of Rev 13.8 is again faulty.
Any translation except quaint old KJV makes this clear.
NASB
“..every one whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain”The lamb was not slain before the foundation of the earth as any reading of the gospels will show.That is when their names were, or were not, written in the book of life of the lamb.
If you have any doubt compare it with Rev 17.8
“And those who dwell on the earth will wonder, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world..”I PETER 1:18-20
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,These verses tell us that Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world.
Meaning what? His life, including the fact that he was to come to earth and be slain for us, was predetermined in God's mind. That is how he can be said to be the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Both Rev 13:8 and Rev 21:27 tell me that this is the Lamb's book of life. When were the names put in this book? and when was it called the Lamb's book? so when was he designated to be a Lamb? and for what purpose?If you read the first part of the article of which you are referring you will find laid out a basis for which Paul was able to claim to be able to reveal by the Spirit of God, mysteries that had been kept hidden since the beginning. The fact that God made all things by Jesus Christ is one of these gems of hidden wisdom. As is the identity of this Melchisedec in Hebrews 7. Certainly if we considered only the record of him in Genesis we will not find most of the things of which Paul discloses by the Spirit, by the same token where do you find explicitly declared in the old testament that God made all things by Jesus Christ?
Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 25 2006,00:00) I PETER 1:18-20
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,These verses tell us that Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world.
Meaning what? His life, including the fact that he was to come to earth and be slain for us, was predetermined in God's mind. That is how he can be said to be the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Both Rev 13:8 and Rev 21:27 tell me that this is the Lamb's book of life. When were the names put in this book? and when was it called the Lamb's book? so when was he designated to be a Lamb? and for what purpose?If you read the first part of the article of which you are referring you will find laid out a basis for which Paul was able to claim to be able to reveal by the Spirit of God, mysteries that had been kept hidden since the beginning. The fact that God made all things by Jesus Christ is one of these gems of hidden wisdom. As is the identity of this Melchisedec in Hebrews 7. Certainly if we considered only the record of him in Genesis we will not find most of the things of which Paul discloses by the Spirit, by the same token where do you find explicitly declared in the old testament that God made all things by Jesus Christ?
Hi Malcolm,
As comparison of Rev 13 8 with Rev 17.8 should show you the Lamb was not slain from the foundation of the earth but that is when the names were written in the book of Life. KJV is so clumsy and awkward in translation at times.The Lamb was perfect when slain as a sacrifice.
NIV – translates it thus :
Revelation 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.Revelation 17:8
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.What is the difference between this and the “clumsy” KJV? Both say the Lamb was slain from the creation of the world in Rev 13:8
Did God foresee the fall of man in the garden of Eden, or did that catch Him off guard?
He knew it would happen obviously and was already prepared for the event beforehand.
For we are told there are some who's names were put on the book of life of the Lamb before the foundation of the world.Did God know that He would institute a religion based upon blood sacrifice or did He just make it up on the spur of the moment? Was there a reason behind the shedding of the life of an innocent one, or was He just winging it? When God told the Serpent “your seed and her seed will be enemies…” Did He come up with that on the spot, or was it the unfolding of a plan He had already formulated before He created a single part of this earth?
We read in Revelation 13:8 that this book in which our names were put is called the Book of Life. This life is a certain kind of life which this particular book, or section of the Book of Life records the names of those who bear this life. This particular section of the Book of Life is designated the Book of Lamb Life, the Lamb here referred to being the one that was slain.
Now regardless therefore of when the lamb was actually slain, this was a special section of the Book of Life, those whose names were found in this section cannot have their names blotted out of the Book of Life, as Judas did.
So this special section of the Book was authored by God before the world was formed. And we were foreknown by God in order to be placed in it. Well what about the Lamb who was slain? 1 Peter 1:20 tells us he also was foreordained by God. His name is first, he is the first born among many brethren.So like I said, Jesus was the Lamb slain in the mind of God, though not manifest as such until a later time, not physically slain until he was sent to earth for this purpose. Even as our names also were placed in the book of Lamb life, though not manifest as the sons of God until a later time…
Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 27 2006,01:44) NIV – translates it thus : Revelation 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.Revelation 17:8
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.What is the difference between this and the “clumsy” KJV? Both say the Lamb was slain from the creation of the world in Rev 13:8
Hi Malcolm,
I dislike NIV too because it plays fast and loose with the truth at times.[eg saying it is Jesus in Jn 12.41]
NASB Rev 13.8
“…everyone
whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world
in the book of life
of the Lamb who has been slain”ECCLESIASTES 3:15
That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.The hairs on our head are numbered, God foreknows us, yet when it comes to His divine plan being enacted by His son, God is not able to know about it beforehand? How then does he send him? And how does Jesus say, for this cause I came into the world? How is it foretold by prophets in the old testament? Clearly God knew that He was going to send Jesus to be the Lamb slain, before he ever came to earth. So if he knew beforehand, how far beforehand?
I CORINTHIANS 2:6-8
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.According to Paul here this hidden wisdom, that God would send Jesus Christ was ordained before the world, as was the placing of names in the Book of Life. No doubt therefore at this time the purpose of his being sent was also determined, to which Jesus referred when he cried out to his Father, “save me from this hour, yet for this purpose I came into the world” what purpose? To be the Lamb slain for sinners.
Hi,
Adam rebelled and obeyed his wife who had obeyed Satan and advised him to do the same. He too ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Before he did so then he presumably did not have the moral understanding that what he was doing was evil.He did know though he had been told not to do. Doing so showed he did not respect or fear God and did not love God as he should have but had more concern for the relationship he had with his wife. Thus he was weak and had contempt for God's law. He had more respect for his own insights and those of his wife than he had for his Creator. If he had refused to listen to his wife things would surely have been sorted but independant thinking led to his separation from God.
Ironically if he had rebelled in some other way and not eaten of that tree he would never have developed any insights as to what upsets God and how to attempt to reestablish a good relationship with God, and would have continued to blithely sin without awareness that he was doing so.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 28 2006,21:10) Hi,
Adam rebelled and obeyed his wife who had obeyed Satan and advised him to do the same. He too ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Before he did so then he presumably did not have the moral understanding that what he was doing was evil.He did know though he had been told not to do. Doing so showed he did not respect or fear God and did not love God as he should have but had more concern for the relationship he had with his wife. Thus he was weak and had contempt for God's law. He had more respect for his own insights and those of his wife than he had for his Creator. If he had refused to listen to his wife things would surely have been sorted but independant thinking led to his separation from God.
Ironically if he had rebelled in some other way and not eaten of that tree he would never have developed any insights as to what upsets God and how to attempt to reestablish a good relationship with God, and would have continued to blithely sin without awareness that he was doing so.
So are you saying Adam and Eve were born in sin and didn't know it? That they were just going about sinning in all directions and God did not mind this sin being in His garden, or His children being in this condition, only when they became aware of it did He feel the obligation to take action?Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 29 2006,18:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 28 2006,21:10) Hi,
Adam rebelled and obeyed his wife who had obeyed Satan and advised him to do the same. He too ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Before he did so then he presumably did not have the moral understanding that what he was doing was evil.He did know though he had been told not to do. Doing so showed he did not respect or fear God and did not love God as he should have but had more concern for the relationship he had with his wife. Thus he was weak and had contempt for God's law. He had more respect for his own insights and those of his wife than he had for his Creator. If he had refused to listen to his wife things would surely have been sorted but independant thinking led to his separation from God.
Ironically if he had rebelled in some other way and not eaten of that tree he would never have developed any insights as to what upsets God and how to attempt to reestablish a good relationship with God, and would have continued to blithely sin without awareness that he was doing so.
So are you saying Adam and Eve were born in sin and didn't know it? That they were just going about sinning in all directions and God did not mind this sin being in His garden, or His children being in this condition, only when they became aware of it did He feel the obligation to take action?
Hi Malcolm,
No. There was no sin in the garden. None sinned prior to the advent of the serpent into the scene. Eve did not sin till she listened to Satan and disobeyed. Adam did not sin till he obeyed his wife. Only when they rebelled did sin emerge. Till then they had no need of a conscience.Hi,
James 1.13f
“..for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Do not be deceived my beloved brethren.”
James 4.1f
“What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive because you ask with wrong motives so that you may spend it on your pleasures”So lust is natural. The response to it should be faith and asking that our needs be met. Instead proud men turn away from God and seek independantly their wants thus watering the seeds of sin that are in us and breeding death.
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