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There have already been many threads on the Trinity and this isn't going to be another.
It has to do with the question of SALVATION.
When I witness to others I do so because I feel the desire to share God's love and free gift to others.
I am concerned that if a person doesn't believe in Jesus and they die without accepting Jesus as their Savior that they will be “lost” and eternally damned.
Here's the dilemma:
If a person who is a “Christian” and believes in the Trinity will that person be “saved”?
I believe in Jesus as the “son of God”….not as God, the Son and that is where the split comes. Trinitarians believe in Jesus as God.
What IF Jesus isn't God? THEN the Trinitarians have believed in a “false god” all the time. They would be breaking the first commandment and would've been following a “wrong” Jesus and teaching others to do so too.
Will believing in a “false god” bring about Salvation? Is this false god equivalent to the “false gods” of all the other different religions? As a false god does it make any difference that the people call this “god” Jesus?
Scripture says that whoever calls upon the name of Jesus will be saved. It doesn't qualifiy salvation upon believing in Jesus as God or son of God. So, does it matter if people break the First Commandment and place Jesus as God?
By me, not believing in him as God can't be faulted because I have done what the Bible has asked. I haven't put the additional moniker of God to Jesus….and haven't put him ahead of his Father, God.
What think thee? Is Salvation at risk?
Trinitarians–“IF” you were wrong about Jesus being God, do you think your wrong doing could cost you your Salvation?
The Professor
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 09 2010,06:16) There have already been many threads on the Trinity and this isn't going to be another. It has to do with the question of SALVATION.
When I witness to others I do so because I feel the desire to share God's love and free gift to others.
I am concerned that if a person doesn't believe in Jesus and they die without accepting Jesus as their Savior that they will be “lost” and eternally damned.
Here's the dilemma:
If a person who is a “Christian” and believes in the Trinity will that person be “saved”?
I believe in Jesus as the “son of God”….not as God, the Son and that is where the split comes. Trinitarians believe in Jesus as God.
What IF Jesus isn't God? THEN the Trinitarians have believed in a “false god” all the time. They would be breaking the first commandment and would've been following a “wrong” Jesus and teaching others to do so too.
Will believing in a “false god” bring about Salvation? Is this false god equivalent to the “false gods” of all the other different religions? As a false god does it make any difference that the people call this “god” Jesus?
Scripture says that whoever calls upon the name of Jesus will be saved. It doesn't qualifiy salvation upon believing in Jesus as God or son of God. So, does it matter if people break the First Commandment and place Jesus as God?
By me, not believing in him as God can't be faulted because I have done what the Bible has asked. I haven't put the additional moniker of God to Jesus….and haven't put him ahead of his Father, God.
What think thee? Is Salvation at risk?
Trinitarians–“IF” you were wrong about Jesus being God, do you think your wrong doing could cost you your Salvation?
The Professor
so your saying im not saved.
You should re evaluate your position.God is the one who saves, you dont decide that
Paul says that all that is required to be saved is that we believe in God and that Christ is the messiah and that he physicaly rose from the dead. I believe that Trinitarians or not can do that in their hearts regardless of their idea of the Godhead.
Quote (martian @ Aug. 09 2010,07:04) Paul says that all that is required to be saved is that we believe in God and that Christ is the messiah and that he physicaly rose from the dead. I believe that Trinitarians or not can do that in their hearts regardless of their idea of the Godhead.
Agreed, but i also believe it includes many things that Jesus stated as well, as one must die and be born again to see the kingdom and what not.I think it comes back to the basis of haveing a Relationship with Christ.
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 09 2010,06:16) There have already been many threads on the Trinity and this isn't going to be another. It has to do with the question of SALVATION.
When I witness to others I do so because I feel the desire to share God's love and free gift to others.
I am concerned that if a person doesn't believe in Jesus and they die without accepting Jesus as their Savior that they will be “lost” and eternally damned.
Here's the dilemma:
If a person who is a “Christian” and believes in the Trinity will that person be “saved”?
I believe in Jesus as the “son of God”….not as God, the Son and that is where the split comes. Trinitarians believe in Jesus as God.
What IF Jesus isn't God? THEN the Trinitarians have believed in a “false god” all the time. They would be breaking the first commandment and would've been following a “wrong” Jesus and teaching others to do so too.
Will believing in a “false god” bring about Salvation? Is this false god equivalent to the “false gods” of all the other different religions? As a false god does it make any difference that the people call this “god” Jesus?
Scripture says that whoever calls upon the name of Jesus will be saved. It doesn't qualifiy salvation upon believing in Jesus as God or son of God. So, does it matter if people break the First Commandment and place Jesus as God?
By me, not believing in him as God can't be faulted because I have done what the Bible has asked. I haven't put the additional moniker of God to Jesus….and haven't put him ahead of his Father, God.
What think thee? Is Salvation at risk?
Trinitarians–“IF” you were wrong about Jesus being God, do you think your wrong doing could cost you your Salvation?
The Professor
Quote I am concerned that if a person doesn't believe in Jesus and they die without accepting Jesus as their Savior that they will be “lost” and eternally damned.
I think its more than just accepting, its makeing Christ part of their lives. accepting him daily. as you include a wife in your life.Quote Here's the dilemma: If a person who is a “Christian” and believes in the Trinity will that person be “saved”?
if you have doubts about that, than you should have asked God in the first place, becuase only he is worthy to save. You shouldnt question the salvations of other who makes such cliams, but only God has such authority.Quote I believe in Jesus as the “son of God”….not as God, the Son and that is where the split comes. Trinitarians believe in Jesus as God.
I also believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that it was Gods role within humanity. i believe that trinitarians believe that Jesus is equal to God. I believe that God came as Jesus.Quote What IF Jesus isn't God? THEN the Trinitarians have believed in a “false god” all the time. They would be breaking the first commandment and would've been following a “wrong” Jesus and teaching others to do so too.
We worship Jesus all the time. The apostles and the very saints in heaven, and every creature will BOW to Jesus, i do not belive for a second just because i worship Jesus, that i will be sent to hell for doing what the scriptures demand. To make such a cliam in condemning others should worry you. There is no other way but through Jesus, we can compelete the first commandment. There is no wrong Jesus in the scriptures.Quote Will believing in a “false god” bring about Salvation? Is this false god equivalent to the “false gods” of all the other different religions? As a false god does it make any difference that the people call this “god” Jesus?
Jesus was never false. Question, would you stand in the presence of Jesus and tell him that he is a false God? really?
how is it equivalent to other religions? Do you not consider that God judges the intentions of your heart, These people love God, are you really saying this?Quote
Scripture says that whoever calls upon the name of Jesus will be saved. It doesn't qualifiy salvation upon believing in Jesus as God or son of God. So, does it matter if people break the First Commandment and place Jesus as God?
How is it breaking the first commandment? when the day comes that every knee shall bow.Quote What think thee? Is Salvation at risk? Trinitarians–“IF” you were wrong about Jesus being God, do you think your wrong doing could cost you your Salvation?
if you were wrong about being saved, were you ever really saved?
How can your salvation have COST, when Jesus PAID THAT COST ALREADY!
Do you honesly believe what you have posted came from God?
or is it based on your opinion or perspective, which is fine.But are you sure what you have stated here has come from God?
Please have the fear of God in your responses.David,
Good question, I have heard others ask this,
It is good that you feel the desire to share Gods love and that you feel concern for others, I am the same with Muslims, I wanted to be a missionary, perhaps someday.
David, Are you saying that my beautiful cousin, Who is the epitome of kindness; charity; humility and meekness, Who is struggling through the world and has my admiration, that she will not see Heaven despite all her prayers because she is a Trinitarian Catholic ? [Just an example which came to mind]
God is not that small and God is not like man, God is not a respecter of persons. God knows we have confused minds and He allows for that because God is Just. We are judged on what we do, We are judged on where our heart is, followers of Jesus are followers of Jesus, regardless of what stage they are at – in regard to how they understand – that is not what matters, it's what we do with what we know,
All things work out for the good of those who love Him,
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 10 2010,03:19) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 09 2010,06:16) There have already been many threads on the Trinity and this isn't going to be another. It has to do with the question of SALVATION.
When I witness to others I do so because I feel the desire to share God's love and free gift to others.
I am concerned that if a person doesn't believe in Jesus and they die without accepting Jesus as their Savior that they will be “lost” and eternally damned.
Here's the dilemma:
If a person who is a “Christian” and believes in the Trinity will that person be “saved”?
I believe in Jesus as the “son of God”….not as God, the Son and that is where the split comes. Trinitarians believe in Jesus as God.
What IF Jesus isn't God? THEN the Trinitarians have believed in a “false god” all the time. They would be breaking the first commandment and would've been following a “wrong” Jesus and teaching others to do so too.
Will believing in a “false god” bring about Salvation? Is this false god equivalent to the “false gods” of all the other different religions? As a false god does it make any difference that the people call this “god” Jesus?
Scripture says that whoever calls upon the name of Jesus will be saved. It doesn't qualifiy salvation upon believing in Jesus as God or son of God. So, does it matter if people break the First Commandment and place Jesus as God?
By me, not believing in him as God can't be faulted because I have done what the Bible has asked. I haven't put the additional moniker of God to Jesus….and haven't put him ahead of his Father, God.
What think thee? Is Salvation at risk?
Trinitarians–“IF” you were wrong about Jesus being God, do you think your wrong doing could cost you your Salvation?
The Professor
Quote I am concerned that if a person doesn't believe in Jesus and they die without accepting Jesus as their Savior that they will be “lost” and eternally damned.
I think its more than just accepting, its makeing Christ part of their lives. accepting him daily. as you include a wife in your life.Quote Here's the dilemma: If a person who is a “Christian” and believes in the Trinity will that person be “saved”?
if you have doubts about that, than you should have asked God in the first place, becuase only he is worthy to save. You shouldnt question the salvations of other who makes such cliams, but only God has such authority.Quote I believe in Jesus as the “son of God”….not as God, the Son and that is where the split comes. Trinitarians believe in Jesus as God.
I also believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that it was Gods role within humanity. i believe that trinitarians believe that Jesus is equal to God. I believe that God came as Jesus.Quote What IF Jesus isn't God? THEN the Trinitarians have believed in a “false god” all the time. They would be breaking the first commandment and would've been following a “wrong” Jesus and teaching others to do so too.
We worship Jesus all the time. The apostles and the very saints in heaven, and every creature will BOW to Jesus, i do not belive for a second just because i worship Jesus, that i will be sent to hell for doing what the scriptures demand. To make such a cliam in condemning others should worry you. There is no other way but through Jesus, we can compelete the first commandment. There is no wrong Jesus in the scriptures.Quote Will believing in a “false god” bring about Salvation? Is this false god equivalent to the “false gods” of all the other different religions? As a false god does it make any difference that the people call this “god” Jesus?
Jesus was never false. Question, would you stand in the presence of Jesus and tell him that he is a false God? really?
how is it equivalent to other religions? Do you not consider that God judges the intentions of your heart, These people love God, are you really saying this?Quote
Scripture says that whoever calls upon the name of Jesus will be saved. It doesn't qualifiy salvation upon believing in Jesus as God or son of God. So, does it matter if people break the First Commandment and place Jesus as God?
How is it breaking the first commandment? when the day comes that every knee shall bow.Quote What think thee? Is Salvation at risk? Trinitarians–“IF” you were wrong about Jesus being God, do you think your wrong doing could cost you your Salvation?
if you were wrong about being saved, were you ever really saved?
How can your salvation have COST, when Jesus PAID THAT COST ALREADY!
Do you honesly believe what you have posted came from God?
or is it based on your opinion or perspective, which is fine.But are you sure what you have stated here has come from God?
Please have the fear of God in your responses.
Hello Dennison,To begin with, NO, I didn't say that this came from God. Hallelujah!
If it came from God how could he be confused or wondering?
No, it comes from me.
If it doesn't matter what “Jesus” a person believes in then preaching the “truth” really doesn't matter, either. So, why bother discussing the Bible or correcting someone who is teaching erroneous information?
By what I hear from you, God is the author of Salvation and He'll choose whom He wants, so it isn't important about which Jesus a person believes in??
God chooses us to send out His message about His son, no? Jesus told us to teach others and make disciples. What do we teach them, the truth or lies? Or does it really matter as long as we preach JEE-SUS?
I have no doubts about MY salvation. I share the Bible with others because I want them to have the “relationship” you are talking about Dennison and be able to be saved by God (not me).
I question others salvation for only one point….”IF” (and only God can answer this IF) they don't have salvation because of the “god” they believe in, am I not supposed to t
ry to help them? Or should I forget about them and let them be “lost”.That is the point or dilemma, Dennison, we worship what WE believe is God. Other religions do the same. Do they have Salvation because they worship “god” too? We add that the God to be worshipped must include Jesus, because that is the only name under heaven that brings about Salvation.
The difference is that you worship Jesus as “GOD”. I worship Jesus because God says to.
YOU: i do not belive for a second just because i worship Jesus, that i will be sent to hell for doing what the scriptures demand. To make such a cliam in condemning others should worry you.
ME: I don't claim nor will ever claim who has salvation or not. But my concern for their salvation will bring me to question their beliefs.
Exd 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
Then it is okay to have other gods as long as they are not BEFORE God?
Re-read the supposition: IF JESUS IS NOT GOD…..
So please Dennison, putting your belief aside that Jesus is God, answer the question according to the supposition, OK?
Like I said in the beginning, I am not out to debate the deity of Christ, I am out to get responses to “Salvation”.
The Professor
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 10 2010,04:23) David, Good question, I have heard others ask this,
It is good that you feel the desire to share Gods love and that you feel concern for others, I am the same with Muslims, I wanted to be a missionary, perhaps someday.
David, Are you saying that my beautiful cousin, Who is the epitome of kindness; charity; humility and meekness, Who is struggling through the world and has my admiration, that she will not see Heaven despite all her prayers because she is a Trinitarian Catholic ? [Just an example which came to mind]
God is not that small and God is not like man, God is not a respecter of persons. God knows we have confused minds and He allows for that because God is Just. We are judged on what we do, We are judged on where our heart is, followers of Jesus are followers of Jesus, regardless of what stage they are at – in regard to how they understand – that is not what matters, it's what we do with what we know,
All things work out for the good of those who love Him,
Shimmer,I posted this because “I” question salvation of others. Not because I am “saying” that they don't have it.
Mat 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
As I answered Dennison, I cannot say who has Salvation and who doesn't (thank God!!!
) He is better equipped at judging.It is true that we have confused minds. We confuse it even further by taking what IS written and changing it for what we want it to be.
How small God is I can't say. Many people would say the same concerning the punishment He Gave to Eve (Mankind) for her disobedience….all for just eating an “apple”.
Thank God we aren't judged on what we do…we are all sinners and like Dennison alluded to: Jesus paid that cost.
YOU: it's what we do with what we know,
If we know that Jesus isn't God and then teach (do) that he is will we not be judged or pay consequences for such disobedience?
Who would be behind the teaching that “Jesus is God” IF “Jesus wasn't God”?
Who taught that Eve, too, “Could be like God”? And what was the consequence?
Satan was able to kill our bodies, is he now trying for our spirits/soul?
Satan tried to get Jesus to claim to be God but Jesus declined. He said to worship God only. “IF” he was God he would've told Satan to worship him. And since Satan couldn't trick Jesus into claiming to be God, what is the next best thing? Getting others to make that claim for him.
Could you see the seriousness of this deception, IF our eternity depended on it?
And do you see why I “question” a person's Salvation? “I” want to make sure “I” give every effort to ensure another's Salvation. It's the same reason I witness for Jesus.
You guys are right; there are many people who “say” they are Christians only to con others; or they don't live like they even know the difference between right and wrong. They are “free”…., or once saved always saved….and there is no “Fear of God” in them.
Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
Rom 3:23 for all [fn] have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our “Lord”.
Jesus is our “Lord” and our free gift from God, but not our God.
Is my questioning, worth concerning myself over?
The Professor
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 09 2010,20:20) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 09 2010,06:16) There have already been many threads on the Trinity and this isn't going to be another. It has to do with the question of SALVATION.
When I witness to others I do so because I feel the desire to share God's love and free gift to others.
I am concerned that if a person doesn't believe in Jesus and they die without accepting Jesus as their Savior that they will be “lost” and eternally damned.
Here's the dilemma:
If a person who is a “Christian” and believes in the Trinity will that person be “saved”?
I believe in Jesus as the “son of God”….not as God, the Son and that is where the split comes. Trinitarians believe in Jesus as God.
What IF Jesus isn't God? THEN the Trinitarians have believed in a “false god” all the time. They would be breaking the first commandment and would've been following a “wrong” Jesus and teaching others to do so too.
Will believing in a “false god” bring about Salvation? Is this false god equivalent to the “false gods” of all the other different religions? As a false god does it make any difference that the people call this “god” Jesus?
Scripture says that whoever calls upon the name of Jesus will be saved. It doesn't qualifiy salvation upon believing in Jesus as God or son of God. So, does it matter if people break the First Commandment and place Jesus as God?
By me, not believing in him as God can't be faulted because I have done what the Bible has asked. I haven't put the additional moniker of God to Jesus….and haven't put him ahead of his Father, God.
What think thee? Is Salvation at risk?
Trinitarians–“IF” you were wrong about Jesus being God, do you think your wrong doing could cost you your Salvation?
The Professor
so your saying im not saved.
You should re evaluate your position.God is the one who saves, you dont decide that
Dennison,That is a good question…are you saved?
But, I am not stating that you are not.
IF Jesus isn't God and you believe him as God, where does your salvation stand?
The Professor
Quote (martian @ Aug. 09 2010,21:04) Paul says that all that is required to be saved is that we believe in God and that Christ is the messiah and that he physicaly rose from the dead. I believe that Trinitarians or not can do that in their hearts regardless of their idea of the Godhead.
Hi Martian and Dennison,I totally agree with you all.
God will determine from our hearts our desires for Him and His son, and see what relationship we had with them and others while we were here on this earth.
However, we discuss many things here on the forum and this is one question that bugs me.
Could this be Satan's ultimate coup to get our “souls”?
The Professor
Hi Prof,
First of all I believe that God begat God and not something less than Himself. With that said, I think there is something to be said about those who love others wether or not their understanding is crystal clear (and whose is?) Some might have really cloudy understanding and some clearer. The understanding comes from a pure heart and a consistent walk with the Lord and fellowship of the Holy Spirit and a strong relationship with the Father and the Son. But to love, you do not need pure understanding. Read this passage and think about it and then think about a person that claims understanding but does not seem loving to the other posters on here, for example:1 John 4:8-21
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us. 20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
NASUKathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 10 2010,12:59) Hi Prof,
First of all I believe that God begat God and not something less than Himself. With that said, I think there is something to be said about those who love others wether or not their understanding is crystal clear (and whose is?) Some might have really cloudy understanding and some clearer. The understanding comes from a pure heart and a consistent walk with the Lord and fellowship of the Holy Spirit and a strong relationship with the Father and the Son. But to love, you do not need pure understanding. Read this passage and think about it and then think about a person that claims understanding but does not seem loving to the other posters on here, for example:1 John 4:8-21
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us. 20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
NASUKathi
Hi Kathi,Those verses were absolutely marvelous.
And yes, it would be super if we could mimic this attitude as we “share” what light we have with others. And the light they have can be shone upon us, too.
I know this thread semi-puts us in the position of thinking in the place of God because Salvation is from God and only God can determine that.
But as God's ambassadors we are to reach out to the lost, just as Jesus did, no? So, who is lost?
As I read over and over these verses I pray that I do not do “wrong” to another and that my words can be received as loving versus attacking.
To me, the greatest miracle is when someone accepts Jesus as his Savior.
How a person lives his life is up to all his brethren, the Bible and the Holy Spirit that dwells in him. It certainly does take a village to raise a child of God.
And the more love that we can show towards one another the happier we will be.
Again Kathi, thanks for the awesome words to live by.
The Professor
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 10 2010,05:59) Read this passage and think about it and then think about a person that claims understanding but does not seem loving to the other posters on here, for example: 1 John 4:8-21
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us. 20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
NASUKathi
But what is love ? Love isn't Jealous, love doesn't boast, love doesn't want the best seat in the house, love helps others, love humbles itself to a lower position, happy when someone else receives praise, it does not envy and is not proud, it cares for others for those lesser off and never hinders a person, never causes them upset or hurts them.” Woe to them Who cause one of these young ones to sin”, can a “Christian” cause another to sin ? Yes. Stick a knife in them spiritually and watch them fall away watch them become angry and hurt, what becomes of it ? Maybe they will lash out in anger, and that anger will grow and that is a sin, maybe they will lose faith and with find alternatives to fill their loss, Can a Christian do this ? Yes. But they will be “Righteous in their own eyes” only seeing the faults in others – never their own.First we need to take the log out of our own eyes. So we can see clearly.
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 09 2010,12:16) There have already been many threads on the Trinity and this isn't going to be another. It has to do with the question of SALVATION.
When I witness to others I do so because I feel the desire to share God's love and free gift to others.
I am concerned that if a person doesn't believe in Jesus and they die without accepting Jesus as their Savior that they will be “lost” and eternally damned.
Here's the dilemma:
If a person who is a “Christian” and believes in the Trinity will that person be “saved”?
I believe in Jesus as the “son of God”….not as God, the Son and that is where the split comes. Trinitarians believe in Jesus as God.
What IF Jesus isn't God? THEN the Trinitarians have believed in a “false god” all the time. They would be breaking the first commandment and would've been following a “wrong” Jesus and teaching others to do so too.
Will believing in a “false god” bring about Salvation? Is this false god equivalent to the “false gods” of all the other different religions? As a false god does it make any difference that the people call this “god” Jesus?
Scripture says that whoever calls upon the name of Jesus will be saved. It doesn't qualifiy salvation upon believing in Jesus as God or son of God. So, does it matter if people break the First Commandment and place Jesus as God?
By me, not believing in him as God can't be faulted because I have done what the Bible has asked. I haven't put the additional moniker of God to Jesus….and haven't put him ahead of his Father, God.
What think thee? Is Salvation at risk?
Trinitarians–“IF” you were wrong about Jesus being God, do you think your wrong doing could cost you your Salvation?
The Professor
Hi:If anyone is saved, it is because they have believed (in accordance with the Word of God) God's testimony that He has given us His Only Begotten Son and His Christ to be the propitiation for our sins, and that God has raised him from the dead.
Quote John 3:16-18 (King James Version) 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (shimmer @ Aug. 09 2010,17:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 10 2010,05:59) Read this passage and think about it and then think about a person that claims understanding but does not seem loving to the other posters on here, for example: 1 John 4:8-21
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us. 20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
NASUKathi
But what is love ? Love isn't Jealous, love doesn't boast, love doesn't want the best seat in the house, love helps others, love humbles itself to a lower position, happy when someone else receives praise, it does not envy and is not proud, it cares for others for those lesser off and never hinders a person, never causes them upset or hurts them.” Woe to them Who cause one of these young ones to sin”, can a “Christian” cause another to sin ? Yes. Stick a knife in them spiritually and watch them fall away watch them become angry and hurt, what becomes of it ? Maybe they will lash out in anger, and that anger will grow and that is a sin, maybe they will lose faith and with find alternatives to fill their loss, Can a Christian do this ? Yes. But they will be “Righteous in their own eyes” only seeing the faults in others – never their own.First we need to take the log out of our own eyes. So we can see clearly.
Hi Shimmer,
Good insight. We do need to remove the log and then we need to help the brother remove the splinter. This definition of love is God's and it is a pretty awesome challenge:1 Cor 13:3-13
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
NASUI may be wrong, Shimmer, but it sounds like you have some wounds that need healing. Have you been offended by a brother or sister in Christ? Then you might lovingly go to them if you haven't already, they might not realize that they need to restore a wrong done.
Kathi
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 09 2010,17:14) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 10 2010,12:59) Hi Prof,
First of all I believe that God begat God and not something less than Himself. With that said, I think there is something to be said about those who love others wether or not their understanding is crystal clear (and whose is?) Some might have really cloudy understanding and some clearer. The understanding comes from a pure heart and a consistent walk with the Lord and fellowship of the Holy Spirit and a strong relationship with the Father and the Son. But to love, you do not need pure understanding. Read this passage and think about it and then think about a person that claims understanding but does not seem loving to the other posters on here, for example:1 John 4:8-21
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us. 20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
NASUKathi
Hi Kathi,Those verses were absolutely marvelous.
And yes, it would be super if we could mimic this attitude as we “share” what light we have with others. And the light they have can be shone upon us, too.
I know this thread semi-puts us in the position of thinking in the place of God because Salvation is from God and only God can determine that.
But as God's ambassadors we are to reach out to the lost, just as Jesus did, no? So, who is lost?
As I read over and over these verses I pray that I do not do “wrong” to another and that my words can be received as loving versus attacking.
To me, the greatest miracle is when someone accepts Jesus as his Savior.
How a person lives his life is up to all his brethren, the Bible and the Holy Spirit that dwells in him. It certainly does take a village to raise a child of God.
And the more love that we can show towards one another the happier we will be.
Again Kathi, thanks for the awesome words to live by.
The Professor
Thanks David,
I agree! That passage is packed full of a very important message. God is good to give us such help.Quote (martian @ Aug. 09 2010,21:04) Paul says that all that is required to be saved is that we believe in God and that Christ is the messiah and that he physicaly rose from the dead. I believe that Trinitarians or not can do that in their hearts regardless of their idea of the Godhead.
Hello Martian,That is an excellent point and so true. I accepted Christ before I really knew anything about a “Godhead”.
This question is more of a conceptual nature. I am not trying to get personal with anyone because I don't know that much about anyone here, nor am I trying to attack Trinitarians.
Maybe someone can help me put the question out there correctly???
Or am I hearing that it doesn't matter WHICH Jesus a person believes in as long as they believe in Jesus?
Another person here would say that if you didn't believe in Yahshua (versus Jesus) and call him by his correct name, you “possibly” wouldn't be saved.
The Professor
We love because He loved First,
They shall know us by our love for another,
There is not greater love than from one laying his life down for his friends.davidbfun,Aug. wrote:[/quote]
Quote
Hello Dennison,To begin with, NO, I didn't say that this came from God. Hallelujah!
Thank GodQuote If it came from God how could he be confused or wondering?
No, it comes from me.
exactly, and i know. i wanted you to clarify that.Quote If it doesn't matter what “Jesus” a person believes in then preaching the “truth” really doesn't matter, either. So, why bother discussing the Bible or correcting someone who is teaching erroneous information?
It does matter of course if you KNOW him, not what you believe what you know.
You couldnt ever really correct someone off the bible, because we all have flawed conceptions or limited understandning of the bible. The Holy spirit is meant to guide us into understanding.Quote By what I hear from you, God is the author of Salvation and He'll choose whom He wants, so it isn't important about which Jesus a person believes in??
no thats a misconception. Im saying that God looks for those who are willing to say yes.
AGain you have to know him.
let me make my prime example
Do you know who Obama is the President of the USA? of course! some say he is the voice of hope, others say he is the Antichrist, heck you can even google him and AND find out everything there is to know about obama. But you know what, if you were to go to the white house, and say well “i know obama let me in” The wouldnt even let you ever near the gate again and dismiss you with a warnning. But what if you grew up with him, and were friends way before he ever became president, so when you apporoch and state “i know obama, let me in.” The president himself will invite you in and embrace you because he knows you.Its the Same with Jesus. our salvation is not only based on knowing Jesus, but Him knowing us as well, a relationship with him. Anyone can find out all there is about him, and claim they know him and believe in miracles and what not. But KNOWING him, having a daily relationship with him, is a totally different manner. Its the same as he speaks of the fruits and thistles. When we apprach Jesus, we will be saved because he knows us by name. and the rest will depart because he NEVER knew them and are workers of inquity.
Is that clearer for you?
Quote God chooses us to send out His message about His son, no? Jesus told us to teach others and make disciples. What do we teach them, the truth or lies? Or does it really matter as long as we preach JEE-SUS?
Teach other and make diciples. what better way to teach and diciple but introduce them into their lives by the testimony of love. You shall know them by their fruits, you shall know them by their love for one another. Teach them about Asking God and depending on him! What did Jesus do? he taught them how to pray!Quote I have no doubts about MY salvation. I share the Bible with others because I want them to have the “relationship” you are talking about Dennison and be able to be saved by God (not me).
I never said if you had any doubts about YOUR salvation, but the doubts you have on others.Quote I question others salvation for only one point….”IF” (and only God can answer this IF) they don't have salvation because of the “god” they believe in, am I not supposed to try to help them? Or should I forget about them and let them be “lost”.
Its a dangerous road to question another salvation. I am not ever willling to tell someone they are saved. I fear God to much. Many people are lost in religion sure, religion will never be shaken unless the spirit of Truth is revealed. Its not revealed by telling them they are wrong, they will find out they were wrong by expierncing the truth. You never forget, nor give up, you keep on loving them, being there, supporting, not their sins, but there walk with God.Quote That is the point or dilemma, Dennison, we worship what WE believe is God. Other religions do the same. Do they have Salvation because they worship “god” too? We add that the God to be worshipped must include Jesus, because that is the only name under heaven that brings about Salvation.
Belief is a powerful tool, its what we run this world by, the belief. We all since we were young had a flawed or limited view of God. But when you know him, when you have experineced him, you know its him, not because of blind belief, but because he demonstrated himself in your life.Quote The difference is that you worship Jesus as “GOD”. I worship Jesus because God says to.
I believe he is a role of God and the Son of God. I also worship Jesus because he deserves honor and glory.Quote I don't claim nor will ever claim who has salvation or not. But my concern for their salvation will bring me to question their beliefs
Only getting Close to God will bring the truth to manifest in whomevers light. being in his presence, asking him, should be enough to unite us all.Quote Exd 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before Me. Then it is okay to have other gods as long as they are not BEFORE God?
I never said that, I said they are respective roles of the same God.Quote Re-read the supposition: IF JESUS IS NOT GOD….. Than what is he? The son of God, and What Is That Exactly?
Quote So please Dennison, putting your belief aside that Jesus is God, answer the question according to th
e supposition, OK?
I have always had an open mind, and still have my beliefs in mind. In the end, what I think doesnt matter, for me i rather be wrong and let God be right. What matters to me, is what God thinks.Quote Like I said in the beginning, I am not out to debate the deity of Christ, I am out to get responses to “Salvation”.
You shouldnt be asking us, but we should ask togethor to the one whom knows all things.
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